Kyrenia Town Dogs - update as of 09.30 on 20th Jan 2016

[KAR]

On behalf of everyone at KAR, and more importantly the Kyrenia town dogs, THANK YOU everyone (individuals, groups and organisations) who have voiced their concerns, in whatever way, about the recent situation.
Whilst it is very early stages there has been ongoing intensive discussions/liaisons between KAR and Girne Belediyesi. As a result of this there has been some developments. The KAR Community Warden and colleague from Girne Belediyesi are going up to the "site" this morning. It has been agreed that some of the dogs can be returned to Girne town - today.
We will keep people updated as/when we can - we hope that you can all appreciate that we are trying our best and everything needs to be done in conjunction with the authorities.

[IPMAN]

Well done, hats off to you.

[Panchocat]

Well done, KAR. Fingers crossed and hopefully the elderly round tower dogs can be returned.

[Hedge-fund]

Just to balance opinion - what if people don't want them returned to the town? Who do they contact?

[Panchocat]

Cally has posted the latest up date on the other thread running on this. Fingers crossed this will happen soon. Well done to all concerned.

[Wookie]

Well done everyone, hopefully the dogs that were around the HSBC bank can return also those that are always around the harbour, I personally do not think they do any harm if anything they add character to Girne, tourists were always seen taking their photo's.

[tomsteel]

Hedge-fund, the Belidiye - just as those who did/do want them returned. İyi şanslar!

[Ragged Robin]

I hope at least that the dogs which are returned are those that have already been "tagged" by KAR because that would mean that they have been neutered and therefore not continue to add to the problem, and hopefully have had at least some protection against parasites and disease.

I hope even more that it will not divert attention from the plight of the .poor dogs who are not among "the chosen", The concern of true animals lovers is not for their value as a tourist attraction or entertainment for those who like dogs but are forced to leave their own(neutered, protected and trained pets) at home , but that these unfortunates are not subject to unduly harsh, unkind and unnatural conditions.

[trooper]

well done KAR and all those who helped put some pressure on the Beled.

well done too all of you who posted in defence ofcthe dogs and gave a damn.

[thornaby]

Totally agree ragged Robin. We must not forget the ones that are left behind.
All are supposed to be coming back over the next few days except one.
This is supposed to be the one that caused the problem.
Although we don't actually know it was this dog.
Is this poor dog going to be left in the compound alone and forgotten with no food and water.

[mikelapta]

So İ go to HSBC Bank this a m..3 fat street dogs,1 lying against the wall under the hole in the wall,people having to do their transactions a metre away because the dog is in the way.I am recovering from a broken ankle and had to step over another fat dog who was in the doorway of the Bank.........
So all you people who pleaded for these animals to be put on the street,hope you are pleased with yourselves....
Let's just wait for someone to trip over 1 of them !!!!

Oh I love dogs and have 2 rescued dogs at home.....

I do not agree with animals on the streets blocking people going about their business

[sophie]

Sorry you had a problem ML., but please bare with us a little pleasure in having them back. To be honest I never use the outside ATM as I can't read the writing because of the sun and use the one inside. Probably they were having a bit of a warm up after their ordeal? They'll wander off to the outside of Boss Café (or whatever it's called now) and surrounding area before long.

[ttoli]

mikelapta

That sounds like Lady and her gang , very placid dogs, was any attempt made to shoo them away or were they left where they were ??

[mikelapta]

Locals and Brits 'let sleeping dogs lie!'......they were just snoozing.But even they are normally placid,an accidental human foot on their body could make them angry !!!

[tomsteel]

Use the ATM inside the bank if you are concerned the 'fat' dogs will interfere with your banking business.

[mikelapta]

TS....please reread my posts carefully !!!There was a 'fat'dog lying across the entrance to the Bank.as well..I am more worried if a customer not as agile as me stepped on them !!!But I do believe they should NOT be there,anyway.That street is for business and shopping,not for "ooops" machines to sun bathe.
Oh by the way,I came home did some gardening with my 2 rescued dogs,and wore wellies because İ know I will tread in their poos....I do not wish to wear wellıes in a High Street in Girne !!!

[tomsteel]

The Cypriot dogs have just as much right to use their streets as the expat evangelists. Ask the HSBC staff to move the dog from the entrance. Use your crutches/sticks to step over a 1/2 metre (max) high obstacle. As a retired physio, I'd happily show you how to do so. How long ago was the ankle fractured, what diagnosis, what age are you?

[mikelapta]

Further comments from me to you would be otiose.

The post is about loose dogs.

[Ragged Robin]

Tom: he said that one of the dogs was lying in the doorway to the bank!

I agree with Mike: of course these dogs must be cared for, but letting them roam the streets is not the answer. Vulnerable people (the very young, the very old and the infirm (temporary or permanent) and the sight impaired) are also entitled to consideration. As Mike said any dog, however,normally placid will react if startled and feels under threat - as anyone who spends time and money looking after strays properly (instead of just feeling good by giving them occasional food or making a donation) knows. I have been bitten by my own dogs - not deliberately but because I was stupid enough to come between the dog and a stray which was attacking it, or offered food in my fingers instead of the palm of my hand . In both cases my dog recognised my smell and withdrew and said with body language it was very sorry but a stray with a stranger might not, and as Mike say someone tripping over a dog might well provoke an attack.

Why not ask the municipality rather than spend a lot of money on building, to allocate an area of wooded land as a dog sanctuary (rather like a donkey sanctuary) and ask for volunteers to provide kennels. Surrouded by wire mesh visitors could watch the dogs, or take one fora walk or groom it (like KAR do). They could sponsor a dog by making a donation and giving it a collar, and income could be made by franchising a stall for human food and drinks and one for doggy treats!

It might even save a bit of land and some flora from the developers concrete! And yes I know what the male dogs would do with trees (and the females kill grass) but no doubt the Forestry Commission could advise on suitable species/protection.

And I did not put this up at the time for suggetions, because I was ill then, but mainly because I have only just thought of it!

[tomsteel]

RR, you have offered one of the most sensible proposals regarding the Girne dogs I have read in my 7+ years here. Obviously, the dogs would have to be neutered prior to their 'holiday camp' stay and be monitored on a several-times daily basis. However, your proposal, in my view, is highly doable.

[Ragged Robin]

These are not "Cypriot" dogs,, nor are they naturally wild dogs. They are feral dogs that have been abandoned. Some of the hunting/gun dog type may be well be abandoned by hunters but you only have to look at the breeds of dogs represented to realise that they were mainly dogs abandoned by British over many years. Even the ubiquitous "Cyprus terrier" which is a bit of a mystery shows signs of a dominant breed of poodle (which is certainly not native to Cyprus nor a particular favourite with Cypriots) crossed with one or more type of terrier. A post on Cyprus 44 on this subject some years ago mentioned that Lord Kitchener abandoned a whole pack of fox hounds here - maybe that was inthe South but dogs do cross borders and dont carry passports.

[tomsteel]

ML. I thought you were bemoaning dogs at HSBC interfering with your banking business because of your fractured ankle. I merely offered to advise on crutch/stick usage. Otiose opinion is, of course, not confined to a singular expressor.

[Ragged Robin]

Thank you Tom S. Praise from you is praise indeed

I havent really thought it through properly,, but I think the "camp" would have to be split into sections - on for unneutered females, one for neutered males and one for neutered dogs. I think the encouragement of visitors would encourage good standards of care! and perhaps some of the Vets could be persuaded to do neutering at cost as a goodwill gesture and advertisement (they make a lot of money out of the expats) and to monitor care on a rotating basis.

[tomsteel]

RR, whatever semantic label is given to these 'beasties', I think most of us agree they need to be humanely managed. Whether this is by euthanasia or society coping for them - who knows? I am told the Government has applied a fixed cost for vetinerary procedures and these cannot be reduced (barking concept, but little surprise here).

[mikelapta]

There was a plan about a year ago by Alsançak Belediyesi to convert forestry land,opposite Escape beach into a large outdoor zoo.I hope a member of KAR reads this,that would be a great place for your kennels etc.And feral dogs could roam (in a large enclosed area at will).KAR would have easier access,and RR's suggestions re sponsorship,tags,feeding..and even taking one home !!! .........no more from me,now,dogs to feed and tea for gf to make....
Oh by the way TS my first dog was discovered in a refuse bag,then about 6 weeks old,in Girne by my friend.She is a Cyprus terrier been with me 8 years now.Love her so much,now sleeping by my feet.Second dog,more a Cyprus poodle,given by Cypriot lady,got too big for her flat.He is about 9 months old,loves to dance on his back feet,and latest innovation,can imitate an ambulance noise !! I love my dogs,and all dogs---in the right place

[tomsteel]

ML, I do not doubt your love of animals. Similarly, we have 2 rescue dogs and they are a rationale to live for. I offered help, not, criticism but the Girne dogs are, by nature, docile beasts. Even humans can over-react, so do we ban them also from the Girne streets?

[Ragged Robin]

Most humans do not react by biting nor do they normally lie down where they can be tripped over - or they would be removed from the streets. Nor are most of them (OK some are!) a danger to and from traffic. I really like the idea of these poor creatures being kept somewhere where they are free safely to run and play. Of course it does depend on neutering and I am aware a lot of Cypriots do not like the idea, but surely they can be persuaded to see it is preferable to having the dog put down or becoming a risk to itself and others.

Done properly by a good Vet they suffer very little at the time and nothing afterwards. It does not even effect their ability to enjoy themselves - my younger female bitch flirts shamelessly with the older dog - who sometimes responds and sometimes shoves her away when he wants to relax or do something else. (No comments on parallel human behaviour please!) but because they are neutered I am spared having to cope with endless puppies and the bitch the strain of spending most of her life pregnant.

I saw a TV programme about Battersea Dogs Home. Plastic rooms and kennels, so hygienic and bright (arent dogs colour blind?) and must have cost a fortune (KAR eat your heart out) but no unnatural somehow. So much better to see them in something like their natural habitat enjoying a degree of freedom and I am sure properly handled it could become a tourist attraction rather than a put off.

The local authorities are usually very good at displays at roundabouts etc. I am sure they could decorate wire netting , with suitable gaps for viewing with climbing plants etc. to provide shade and windbreaks and make an attractive feature rather than an eyesore of old sheds.

[Owl Lady]

The dogs outside the HSBC have been around the Food Lodge (formerly Café Boss) for years.They were not rounded up this time. I have NEVER seen them cause a problem. Mike of Lapta I also broke my ankle recently and went to the bank on crutches, never encountered any problems with the dogs. In fact never even saw them!!

[Binkey]

I wonder how many of the posters on this thread actually live in Girne? We live behind the HSBC and a pack of six dogs have taken up residence in the ravine along side the new tennis courts. At dusk and all throughout he night we are entertained with barking, fighting and howling. At dawn it subsides as the pack skulk off to find food in town.
The romantic description of the 'street dogs' voiced by so many is far from the truth. Perhaps some of the part-time visitors to Girne would like to experience the disruption we who live there experience. They may then change their 'rose coloured spectacle' view of these dogs.
They need to be controlled. Walking back from town at night and being confronted by a pack of six dogs skulking under an apartment block is not a pleasant experience I can assure you.
If you love them so much take them back to where you live!

[silverfir]

rr. on a lighter note, I have been known to fall over and become a hazard to passers by. This will invariably been induced by an overdose of efes, but please don't have me put down

[erol]

... but please don't have me put down

Tagging and spaying you and returning you to where you were picked up from should be sufficient - at least to start with

[sophie]

I just thought that readers might like to know that NON of the HSBC dogs were amongst those taken to the Temporary (!!!) Centre (for the want of a better word) If they disappeared for a few days then it must have been coincidence. There have also been comments about strange dogs appearing around the Old Tower and Cafes, whilst the others were away. This is because remove anything completely and you create a vacuum, which of course was being filled by other Girne dogs from far and wide. All the dogs know this is a "cushy" spot to be, you are fed, watered and given shelter.

[Ragged Robin]

Thanks for the info Sophie, and you make a very good point re vacuums and I saw a very good article on this point on the KAR website, but are you in effect saying "the devil you know is better than the devil you dont know"!?

All the more reason, imho, why feeding points for all strays (and this includes cats as well as dogs, as cats can be even more of a nuisance as they cant be physically contained) should be carefully chosen for areas where they cause minimum disruption.. Also al the more reason Island wide attention to this problem before it get further out of hand and - again imho - can only be done humanely by wide scale neutering.

[karmels]

Went to Cafe George today and our friends were not with us.

[bigbadbob]

We were in Café George as well late lunch time and noticed that there was a lot of activity from a pack of 5/6 dogs running back and forwards across the road and around where the fountain is. These were new dogs to us and this was confirmed by someone who has always fed and kept a caring eye out for the local street dogs, as much as even knowing all their names.

BBB's other half.

[ifonly]

Part of the problem, with new dogs near café George, over the last few days is there was/is a black n white speckled female who was/is in season. Obviously the males will come from far and wide until her season finishes or she moves on - then the males should disperse.

[mikelapta]

Then another female will come on heat...........then,..........here we go again !!!!!

[Ragged Robin]

Now there is a thought! Instead of wide scale rounding up of strays in towns and villages, remove the females in heat , seggregate them and have them neutered before returning. It would be a start on the neutering programme and remove the greatest danger and nuisance of males fighting over females. Of course some of the bitches may already be pregnant - maybe KAR could help there, if I remember rightly they did say they still took in pregnant bitches. And it would be a real mercy for some of these feral bitches who spend their whole lives either pregnant or fighting to protect and get enough food for their pups and mourning those who dont make it.

[sophie]

If you were to Google Izmir, Istanbul and Antalya attitudes to their local stray dogs population you would see what Girne should be aspiring towards. They have an enlightened belief in that dogs SHOULD NOT BE CULLED but with reliable neutering the dog population can be controlled. Izmir in particular is amazing. 15 years or so ago they decided that they should tackle their problem head on and there is a large Belediye Department which does nothing else. Dogs, when reported by a member of the public, are taken to one of three large dog centres. neutered or spayed and then returned to the area they are picked up from. You can wander around parks, or public areas and the dogs are well looked after and do not cause any problems. I went to one of their centres, where dogs had been brought in by Belediye workers waiting to be neutered and the dogs could not wait to be returned. Remember, most of these dogs would not make house pets, they were born on the streets and that is where they most happy. Izmir, like Istanbul and Antalya, is a city of flat dwellers and these blocks of flats "adopt" cats and dogs and look after them. When you wander around at night you can see shop doors ways with dog and cat food in bowls especially put out for the street animals. It was wonderful one evening in Antalya to see an extended family going for a walk, sitting down at tables near us. The little children then ran down the street and put their arms around 4 dogs and give them hugs. I had to ask why, and was told "these are our flat dogs and the children love them". If each block of flats in Girne did the same there would be very little problem. Unfortunately TRNC locals are not the same. In Istanbul you can wander around the Blue Mosque area and there are dogs which lie around in the sun and under trees and the in the evening after the restaurants are closed they are fed with the left overs and next day you can see them wandering around the area, ignored by the locals but made a fuss of by tourists.

However you can't make a buck out of strays here and that's all they are interested in, it would appear!! There are a few lovely people who have seen the light and they are to be applauded and those ex-pats who advocate KILLING (WHY USE THE WORD CULLING - YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO MAKE IT SEEM LESS DREADFUL) it just won't happen so why don't you help these animals and stop demanding they be shot or gassed or whatever. If you want to shoot them, then go and ask for a gun and do it yourself!!

Obviously I cannot speak for the treatment of dogs and cats in the less enlightened parts of Turkey, but only for the more civilised areas. What I also meant to say was, these people are not stupid and if there is proved to be a rogue animal then it is euthanized without question or if an animal is really old and cannot cope with the low temperatures it is kept under Belediye care for the rest of its life. In the centres there are 6 day a week Vets, guards and workers, all paid for out of the rates. I asked a rate payer if he objected to this and he said "why should I". What more can be said???

[Ragged Robin]

Sophie: I did not advocate "culling" or "killing" - I advocated neutering!

"Culling" dictionary definition means "picking out and removing" the inferior. In herds of animals and animals bred for sale or show it means killing the weaker to improve the herd or the breed. It is inappropriate to feral animals where if they are to mix with humans the smaller gentler types should be encouraged, and imho only the "rogues", the terminally ill, and those unable to survive should be euthanised. Conditions and customs AND RESOURCES are very different in the large cities of Turkey from the small towns and villages of Cyprus. And we are not all fortunate enough to be able afford increases in their rates - particularly if are already struggling with the cost of care of individual strays ourselves.

[sophie]

RR its all a matter of scale. Smaller cities (and Girne is considered a city here in the TRNC) pay proportionally less in rates. I wasn't referring to you personally, however the word Culling is bandied about without anyone actually wanting to say the correct word. Culling, killing, doing away with, putting to sleep, euthanizing, it all means the same. Spay, neuter or whatever is all we can do here and if that is all one can do then we have to accept it. It is a terrible shame that people should find themselves in a position of having dogs that are a complete drain on ones finances (despite the fact that we might love them to bits) if there is an alternative, which is to follow the examples I have mentioned and everyone do their bit however little. If the Belediye neutered all animals and there wasn't the endless pups being born, think how much easier it would be for dogs lovers and non dog lovers included.

[woodspeckie]

In Akyaka a resort in Turkey the dogs are fed twice a day by the Belediye and once a week a Vet walks round the resort and checks all the dogs, in Cesme the dogs are fed by the Restaurants, the dogs walk down the street with you or take you for a walk round the headland. These are two resorts we holiday in and never had a problem with dogs.

[tomsteel]

Neutering injected spaying of male dogs has been trialled and used in the USA and costs 2/5ths of the surgical procedure with no infection or post-surgical risk. Maybe it could work here also?

[sophie]

Its also used widely in Australia as well. Can't believe the Vets here are unaware of this, however, the Government are extremely conservative/wary, call it what you will about importing drugs and chemicals that are widely used through out the world, both for human and animal use.

[Ragged Robin]

Sophie I dont want to argue because it seems actually we are both in agreement, at least, that we do not agree with large scale killing and we do support neutering. But large cities with lots of flats have more people to the area and presumably to number dogs to bear the brunt of rates/taxes. And some people acquired their animals before they lost health and/or money and now regard them as part of the family - we have saved the population a lot by having their dogs neutered think how many pups would have been born to a dog and two bitches aged beween 4 and 20 - should they really be expected to bear the brunt of of the general animal population.

Also do bear in mind that the TRNC is a new country compared to Turkey and that a customs and legal systems (based incidentally onthe British) are in a state of flux. It is also still largely a rural agricultural based economy and a lot of older people are influenced by the damage that packs of dogs can do to crops and livestock, and the diseases they can spread. Attitudes ARE changing with the younger, but it will take time. Are the Turkish street dog regularly inoculated against disease, wormed and protected against parasites?

Tom S. Don't want to upstage you, but I thought of neutering the males first - even surgically it is cheaper and easier than females. I just lost my nerve and did not dare suggest it

[sophie]

No they're not RR, but then neither are KAR dogs after they go back on the streets after being N or S, however, just like KAR dogs, if a dog is observed by a member of the public to be injured or infirm the number of the tag is taken, reported back to the Belediye and it is taken off the street and taken to the dog pound for treatment. Likewise if an animal is observed to be becoming aggressive and causing trouble it is removed from the street and put back in the dog centre. Nothing is perfect and they do have Dog Charities in towns away from the cities (mostly run by ex-pats as usual) who work similar to KAR but ultimate responsibility lies with the Belediye (some to the good and some as always to the bad)

[Marions]

This post is being locked. It has served its main purpose, and now seems to be a discussion |between two people.
I suggest that either a new thread of discussion is created on how to deal with dogs here, or that the discussion is continued through messages to each other.

On a personal note and as an animal lover and believer in animal rights, I recognise that any thoughts we may have are of little use unless shared with the authorities . I also believe they are trying to move forward and will continue to do so,but maybe not at the rate some of us would like, an d not copying olther countries which have different resources. (this latter is, as I say, my own opinion).