Stephen Day Cyprus Today

[rocking]

I loved the article in the paper today about "settlement". When I speak to the locals they think that joining the EU we would have millions of euros thrown at us. I try to say that was many years ago not any more. I think that the Greek Cypriots would finish up the masters of the Turkish Cypriots. GC want it all, give them an inch and they want a mile.

[geroff]

The NC only need to look at how Greece is faring , GC may also feel the brunt fairly soon. More than they already have.

[MoonageDaydream]

So can anyone Cut & paste what Stephen actually said for the benefit of thoise of us who don't live in North Cyprus all year round?
(Cyprus Today doesn't seem to publish online, so I have to rely on LGC and Kibris Postasi for local news).

[rocking]

Sorry Moo age I do not k ow how to do what you ask re cut and paste.

[Keithcaley]

So can anyone Cut & paste what Stephen actually said ...Cyprus Today doesn't seem to publish online..

I'd love to do that, if you would be kind enough to explain just how I can 'Cut and paste', given that Cyprus Today do not publish online...

p.s. You can subscribe & have it posted to you, anywhere in the World, you know...

[MoonageDaydream]

I meant 'copy & paste' actually, but I understand there are copyright issues.
Anyway thanks to the board member who sent me a personal message with the content...

[jofra]

To "Cut & Paste" or "Copy & Paste", the source document/picture has to be online - if it's not, and is (only) on paper, it would be necessary to first scan the item, then upload that scan to a location (website/webpage) on the net, and then provide a link to or insert the image from that site/page.....

[Marions]

Maybe someone can take a photo with their 'android' and then post it here. Best way of doing it. One cannot cut and past,e of cours,e and I can't help as I never buy the paper! Surely someone can take a picture - please! If not, maybe someone can write a précis of what he said. .

[turtle]

I thought of that Marion but i gave up after 20 mins..... The thing simply would not post ?

[Keithcaley]

Here you are then...

I wasn't sure that it was OK to post CT material (although I have done so in the past )

[cambridge]

Thanks Keith. Many true words I think.

[DieHard]

As no one has reintroduced the 40 year embargo on NC why can there not now be direct flights? BA flew in last year direct, have they not set a presidence now for flights from the UK to fly direct?

[Hedge-fund]

Here you are then...

I wasn't sure that it was OK to post CT material (although I have done so in the past )

Childish scaremongering.

[Dalartokat]

Here you are then...

I wasn't sure that it was OK to post CT material (although I have done so in the past )

Childish scaremongering.

What is? Keith not sure he could post CT material or the content of the article he has posted.

[Marions]

Not scaremongering at all but complete common sense.

[Hedge-fund]

Here you are then...

I wasn't sure that it was OK to post CT material (although I have done so in the past )

Childish scaremongering.

What is? Keith not sure he could post CT material or the content of the article he has posted.

No of course not!

The article.

Rehashed lazy anti agreement drivel.

[Hedge-fund]

Not scaremongering at all but complete common sense.

Let's hope, and pray, that the politicians involved can take this opportunity to overcome prejudiced self interest and get an agreement acceptable by the majority on all sides.

Lazy dismissive journalism will not help but then again I don't think it was designed to.

It's very easy to moan from the sidelines but those with very challenging, difficult and somewhat dangerous decisions to make should be encouraged.

The situation in Ulster is not ideal but at least the troubles are in the past. Such biased copy did not help that peace process and certainly will not help Cyprus - but then again it wasn't written to help the process but simply to re-inforce the status quo.

[Welldigger]

I found the article of great interest and very accurate, Stephen Day always hits the nail right on the head. Well done that man for speaking the truth and what everybody is thinking, or at least should be!

[PapaBravo]

I found the article of great interest and very accurate, Stephen Day always hits the nail right on the head. Well done that man for speaking the truth and what everybody is thinking, or at least should be!

An opinion to which you are entitled. Not sure how many would agree with you.

[Hedge-fund]

I found the article of great interest and very accurate, Stephen Day always hits the nail right on the head. Well done that man for speaking the truth and what everybody is thinking, or at least should be!

I'll read the facts and make my own mind up thanks.

If you think what someone else tells you to think you devalue your own opinion.

Narrow-minded self interest and mistrust has failed to bring a solution in over 40 years. The current Presidents are trying a more cordial pragmatic approach and it seems to be on a firmer footing at present.

I was looking at some news footage recently of Prince Charles shaking the hand of Gerry Adams at the spot where the IRA killed his uncle in the 1970s. Painful though it is, unless people are able to confront fears, hatred and prejudice to make the future better than the past you are stuck in a cycle of miserable isolation and irrelevance.

[PapaBravo]

H-F, I fully concur.

[MoonageDaydream]

I agree - well sid H-F.

Stephen Day's article was really quite depressing, its easy to criticise those who are working hard for a solution, but what is Stephen's alternative?
It seems to be; maintain the status quo, including all the embargoes, keep the TRNC dependent on Turkey, and watch while even more Turkish Cypriots leave and get replaced by mainlanders.

No Turkish Cypriot I've ever met thinks re-unification under the auspices of the EU promises "sunny uplands" but they want an end to their isolation, and only a solution recognised by the UN can deliver that to them. President Akinci represents the best hope they've had for years, and he deserves to be supported by foreigners that came to live in North Cyprus in his attampts to reach a permanent solution to the Cyprus problem.

[JBA]

Anastasiades said again yesterday that there will be no solution until the Turkish army is withdrawn. Turkey and the TRNC say that the Turkish army will remain until the South's good intentions are proven - and who can blame them.

[Welldigger]

I found the article of great interest and very accurate, Stephen Day always hits the nail right on the head. Well done that man for speaking the truth and what everybody is thinking, or at least should be!

An opinion to which you are entitled. Not sure how many would agree with you.

It's an open forum allowing people to express their opinions, so yes I am entitled to it and I certainly do not need anyone's validation for doing so. With regard to how many people agree, that would depend on whether you asks TC's or expats now wouldn't it?

[Welldigger]

I found the article of great interest and very accurate, Stephen Day always hits the nail right on the head. Well done that man for speaking the truth and what everybody is thinking, or at least should be!

I'll read the facts and make my own mind up thanks.

If you think what someone else tells you to think you devalue your own opinion.

Narrow-minded self interest and mistrust has failed to bring a solution in over 40 years. The current Presidents are trying a more cordial pragmatic approach and it seems to be on a firmer footing at present.

I was looking at some news footage recently of Prince Charles shaking the hand of Gerry Adams at the spot where the IRA killed his uncle in the 1970s. Painful though it is, unless people are able to confront fears, hatred and prejudice to make the future better than the past you are stuck in a cycle of miserable isolation and irrelevance.

Northern Ireland was always recognised and was never on a "back-foot" to start with. If Britain had to firstly get NI recognised as a state, the situation would be totally different. Besides, Ireland has one people, "the Irish" and cannot be compared to TRNC, where there are two peoples TC's & GC's and two religions.

The TC's are sick of being stuck in this cycle too but the only way of resolving anything, is to start on a level playing field and that would mean recognition first, solution second.

[Welldigger]

It would seem to me that most people who disagree with Stephen Day's article are self-serving expats who want a solution at any cost, without any thought and/or consideration to the historical facts of the Turkish Cypriot people or their continual struggle.

I think it is most expats view that "as long as there's a solution and the island (North Cyprus) is recognised, regardless of how much land and/or compromises the TC's make, regardless of whether we live under Greek rule, we'll be OK."

Sorry, not for me!

[Hedge-fund]

I found the article of great interest and very accurate, Stephen Day always hits the nail right on the head. Well done that man for speaking the truth and what everybody is thinking, or at least should be!

I'll read the facts and make my own mind up thanks.

If you think what someone else tells you to think you devalue your own opinion.

Narrow-minded self interest and mistrust has failed to bring a solution in over 40 years. The current Presidents are trying a more cordial pragmatic approach and it seems to be on a firmer footing at present.

I was looking at some news footage recently of Prince Charles shaking the hand of Gerry Adams at the spot where the IRA killed his uncle in the 1970s. Painful though it is, unless people are able to confront fears, hatred and prejudice to make the future better than the past you are stuck in a cycle of miserable isolation and irrelevance.

Northern Ireland was always recognised and was never on a "back-foot" to start with. If Britain had to firstly get NI recognised as a state, the situation would be totally different. Besides, Ireland has one people, "the Irish" and cannot be compared to TRNC, where there are two peoples TC's & GC's and two religions.

The TC's are sick of being stuck in this cycle too but the only way of resolving anything, is to start on a level playing field and that would mean recognition first, solution second.

My reference to Northern Ireland was purely a view on a peace process - and how sectarian murders are dealt with by reconciliation otherwise you just get more murders - not its politics....... Mind you, you saying there are not two peoples and two religions in Ulster is puzzling.

[Ragged Robin]

Does no one remember the Annan Plan? "Cyprus" was promsed entry into the EU if they voted for reuninification. The Greeks voted No, and the Turks voted Yes (admittedly by very narrow margins in both cases) . So the perfideous EU let the GCs in and left the TCs out in the cold! Surely that in itself should be enough to raise suspicions as to the EU's integrity and intentions towards the TCs. and surely events in Greece and South Cyprus can only reinforce suspicions that the streets of the EU are only paved with gold for a few powerful nations.. True , the present situation is far from ideal, but there is such thing as jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. I agree with Welldigger , the only way the Turkish Cypriot will get a long overdue fair deal is to start with a level playing field, which means recognition first - then start bridge building between two equal states a step at a time, with trade treaties, sharing natural resourcs etc.

[waddo]

Is it not fair to say that should the KKTC receive International recognition - by some magic trick yet to be discovered - then by default it would be a full member of the EU in the same stroke? By a full member I do mean that all power of the EU books of good ideas and stupid laws would then apply to the KKTC as well as the other countries already in the EU. If that were the case then do you not expect that the EU lords and ladies would then attempt to force the KKTC to re-merge (new word?) with the RoC and become simply what it was in pre 74 days? If that is the case it would be the death of the KKTC by being recognized by the International community and the Greek Cypriots would have achieved everything they desired.

[Ragged Robin]

I .do not follow your reasoning, Waddo. Surely if the TRNC were to be internationally recognised as an independent sovereigh state (and not part of the so callled RoC)and able to trade and negotiate independently it would NOT automatically become part of the EU but would have to go through the same appplication process as other countries?

The problem would be financial. In these circumstances it would still need ecomic support and I for one would not dare to guess whether Turkey would continue to give it. Thus the need to find markets might well force it to apply to the EU and from there be under pressure to reunite. But at least the TCs would have some element of choice and a better basis for negotiation than if they returned to being a minority community of the RoC.

The trouble is that the younger generation have been seduced by the perceived glamour of "Western Civilisation" and forget , what those of us who lived with it experienced, the way in which the Turkish community was sidelined and trodden under and their rights under the Constitution of the Roc ignored in the sixties even before the violence started.

[erol]

It would seem to me that most people who disagree with Stephen Day's article are self-serving expats who want a solution at any cost, without any thought and/or consideration to the historical facts of the Turkish Cypriot people or their continual struggle.

Well I am a TC citizen by birthright and I pretty much disagree with Stephen Day on everything as a matter of course.

As a TC I accept that the issue of if the TC are a 'people' with separate and equal right to self determination to GC is a complex one. Under international law there is no definitive clear cut definition of what constitutes a 'people' as far as the right to self determination of peoples go. Even if you say the TC are a 'people' with a separate and equal right to self determination, then that alone does not automatically confer on them a right to have a separate and unique state of their own, especially when the only way to achieve that requires the forced removal of vast numbers of others who are not of that same 'people'. These things are complex imo. Are the Kurds a people ? Should they not have a recognised state of their own ? How about Romany people ? Are they a 'people' ? Tamils ? etc etc

My own personal view is that the GC by choosing to pursue enosis effectively said pretty much by the definition of enosis that there was no such thing as a unitary Cypriot people that included both TC and GC but in fact there was just Greeks who lived in Cyprus and some others, and thus 'made' the TC a separate people to themselves (and thus 'bestowed' on them a separate and equal right to self determination). If all GC had sought at the end of British rule was an independent Cypriot nation that included both TC and GC communities I do not think there would have been any way the TC community could have argued for the kind of disproportionate to their numbers repersentation that was granted to them under the 60's agreements. The TC community would have just been a minority part of a unitary Cypriot people. Unfortunately the GC did not choose to be 'Cypriot' and part of a 'Cypriot people' that could include TC but instead chose (then) to want to be part of a unitary Greek people. In the interest of balance there were plenty of TC as well who chose to be part of the 'Turkish people' rather than part of a 'Cypriot people'.

I want a solution, not at any cost but I would pay a 'significant price' for it. I do believe that GC and TC have more in common with each other than each one does with its respective 'motherland'. Certainly genetically this in irrefutable but I believe it is true in a wider sense despite the differences of language and religion. As someone who abhors the 'propaganda' of the other side and does all they can to refute it with facts I also have to recognise that we as TC also have our own 'propaganda truths' that are just as distorted and one sided as 'theirs' and that I can not condemn 'theirs' whilst ignoring 'ours'.

[waddo]

RR,

Cyprus - which encompasses both North and South - is already in the EU - fact. The KKTC is seen, Internationally (apart from Turkey) as occupied territory and still in the EU but the acquis (or parts thereof) is currently held in abeyance for those occupied territories of Cyprus - fact. The Republic of Cyprus (RoC) is not "so called" it is the RoC - fact.

Not everyone may like it but "Internationally" it is true that the whole Island of Cyprus is the RoC and that the Northern part is known as "occupied territories" - I feel that is more due to the gutless UK Government, aided and abetted by the Greek Government who along with Turkey are the three guarantor powers, two of which have sat back and done nothing but complain about the situation for over 40 years.

Are you now saying that should KKTC become Internationally recognized as an independent sovereign state then it would cease to be part of Cyprus as a whole and therefore no longer be a part of the EU? I can not remember any time when the EU let one of its "captures" go and become independent again - mind you Greece is well on the way to doing just that so things may change. I do not believe that should the KKTC become a separate state or receive International recognition by any other means that it would cease to be an EU member just because of this action - the EU will not willingly admit its error in allowing the whole of Cyprus to join the EU and to cast out a new Nation would just highlight the error it had made in the past.

[Welldigger]

Hedge-Fund, at no stage did I mention religion in Ireland, I said and I quote "Ireland has one people, the Irish".
Therefore it's not like Cyprus, i.e. Greek and Turkish, different nationalities, different traditions, different cultures AND different religions.

[Hedge-fund]

Hedge-Fund, at no stage did I mention religion in Ireland, I said and I quote "Ireland has one people, the Irish".
Therefore it's not like Cyprus, i.e. Greek and Turkish, different nationalities, different traditions, different cultures AND different religions.

your sentence continued "Ireland has one people, "the Irish" and cannot be compared to TRNC, where there are two peoples TC's & GC's and two religions"

So I read that as TRNC has two peoples and two religions...............and Ulster doesn't. Which is clearly wrong.

As I said I was puzzled but it appears I read it wrong.

[Ragged Robin]

Waddo: "Cyprus" is an island (a geographical area) not a political entity , whaever the British media (under pressure from political and financial vested interests) may suggest.

Who cleans your street , collects your rubbish, to whom to you pay property tax and income tax on banks accounts? Vat on purchases? Not the EU nor the so called RoC. The fact is the TRNC exists de facto and incredibly survives ,despite non recognition and has done so for over40 years.. As for the RoC its legality has been questionable ever since the Greek Cypriot administration broke the terms of its Consitution. Furthermore the TRNC exist as a working democracy - Ok they have made bad mistakes (in my mind particularly with the legal system and operation of planning laws) and have a beauracracy (which was inherited from a mixture of the Otoman and British empires) which can drive one mad, but so does every other democratic state in the world. The fact that it is a civilized state with a comparatively low crime rate , where many Brits and other expats prefer to make thier homes rather than the UK and the tremendous advances they have made , particularly in medicine and technology, is to my mind something that(notwithstanding financial aid from Turkey) deserves congratulation and cherishing.

What so many people (including the younger generation of Cypriots themselves) dont take into account is that the GC population has been brain washed for generations and coninues as far as I can make out. By the early 1960s the Turkik populations were definitely second class citiizens.
I have known some very nice decent Cypriots, both Greeks and Turks and have witnessed friendships and even considerable kindness between the two communities but even with the nicest of the GCs there were always reservations, most Greeks saw the Turks as a somehow inferior race, and even the kiindness had a elelement of patronism. Many of the less educated Greeks had an intrinsic fear of Turks and children viewed them as "bogeymen".

We now have a second generation and a third on the way of Turkish Cypriots who have not experienced this first hand. Thanks to having their own State they are generally better fed , housed and educated and healthier than thier parents and have far greater expectations of life. They have a much higher proportion of qualified professionals in all areas than their forebears, to the extent that they largely rely on other nationals to provide the manual unskilled labour that the Greeks used to expect of them. With i ruinification they are will be shocked and not going to take kindly to the attitude of many GCs and the GCs (already suffering economic deprevation as a result of misguided EU financial policies) are not going to reconsiled to the Turks if the EU "sweetens the pill" be throwing money at Turkish areas

Move towards reconciliation by all means, but yavas, yavas, recogning the TRNC internationallly and concentrate on cooperations in trade and sharing essential natural resources of the Island

[Sandman]

Of course there is no cultural difference between the Irish and the so called "Ulster Scots" !!!!????