The Cyprus Problem

[jofra]

Turtle,
I generally agree with what you say here, but I suspect that you are like me - never gone through this. However, I also suspect that Barney (even if he does not realise it) may well have been influenced in exactly the same way as the Southerners after the American civil war - think of the "carpetbaggers" who (although not actual soldiers) flooded into the southern states, appropriating so much rich property and business that had been left..... and also had not been left, but nevertheless, 'appropriated'....
While I don't really support such an extreme comparison, I can understand that some do, due to their own experiences... I can vouch for the fact that anger, hatred and bitterness can stay with you for years upon years, even (as in my case) probably over petty matters - and this was/is not.

[Barney]

Barney
I for one welcome your posts and views, I'm not saying I agree with them but do think you have the right to say them,..Having said that I do think your aims/goals here are mainly a financial one for your families loss (not your loss) and it appears you are motivated with the prospect of a financial gain sometime soon.

Not once have you put forward any views or argument for a sensible settlement,... surely your argument is with Turkey and the TC people who have turned your families (not yours) lands into what it is today and not with the British expats.

My loss too Turtle, my name is on the deeds of our property on the coast near Trikomo (not far from Busy Bees estate agents). I get the impression you think I'm wrong to expect to have what is rightfully mine.

As for not putting forward arguments for a settlement (you may not consider it sensible but I disagree) I said this earlier,
"Bottom line is Turkey has to return a significant part of the "trnc" in order to get recognition of its conquest in the north. International recognition of a separate State in the north can only happen if the ROC agrees to it otherwise it will never happen and the "trnc" will gradually be absorbed by Turkey to the detriment of local people."

So I agree my argument is with Turkey but unfortunately it has cut off funds to the IPC. As for the expats, I resent the fact that they can "buy exchange property" that does not and never has belonged to the vendor. I resent the fact that they turn up in north Cyprus, lured by cheap stolen land, and then proceed to blame only one side for the current tragedy in order to justify keeping their dodgy "purchase". One of these heroic expats even suggested a few weeks ago that the Turkish army should have pushed the Greek Cypriots into the sea in 1974.

[DenizIsmail]

So Barney - what do you suggest should happen to stop your bitterness and for you to be happy again!

[wondering1]

For your information I have close GC relatives who have related their personal experiences of Cyprus and in particular the invasion. 1.) The worst massacres took place AFTER Turkey invaded - thousands were killed on both sides AFTER Turkey invaded.
I have visited Cyprus many times recently, the last time after driving past my 2.)stolen house, I visited my Grandparent's 3.)desecrated graves in Komi Kebir and the 4.)looted churches, would you like to see the photos? Both sides suffered, stop trying to play the innocent victim.
By the way, how come several thousand Turkish Cypriots CHOOSE to live in the south of the ROC if things are so bad?

I have bolded the propaganda here just in case someone might actually take what you are saying for granted.

1.) Maybe I should have rephrased massacres to genocide in that case, because the only genocide that occurred was before the war and affected the TCs and was perpetrated by Greeks. This is accepted world-wide as a fact.

The massacres that occurred during the war is quite natural when a weak opponent faces a stronger opponent, loss of life is never a good thing but don't fight a huge powerful army and then complain you lost.

2.) Your house was "stolen" in the same way a Turks house in the south side was "stolen", it was to prevent an on-going genocide. The fact it was people from your culture committing the genocide somewhat moots this point when comparing to the Turkish who were the victim of the genocides and THEN had their house "stolen".

In reality, however, land was exchanged and ironically the Greeks are the only ones complaining about their receipt of exchanged land even though their land is worth vastly more than the equivalent on the North Side now because of embargoes.

3.) This one is quite shameful, I go through the mountains in remote parts of the north all the time and find loads of hidden grave yards and I have yet to find a single "desecrated" grave so far even where it would be easy to get away with doing it. This is simply a lie to say the TCs went around desecrating Greek graces, unless you don't understand what they word means of course.

If you want to defend this point where they are and I will go sometime and take photos toprove you wrong, at the expense of your credibility, likewise to not provide the details is at the expense of your credibility. At worse there are old grave stones that are falling over or broken with age as you'd find in an old grave yard in the UK. There will be no "death to greeks" written on any of them.

4.) I don't doubt this. In the UK when the student fees went up the students looted the shops, whenever there is a riot people loot, on black Friday people have looted. Do you have any doubt that properties on the south were not looted? During a war would you not be surprised if there was NO looting?

The reason I point this out is that this is yet another propaganda point for Greeks, "how could they loot our CHURCHES? Such barbarians, those Turks".

The real barbarians of those times are clear for anyone to see. On the basis of the racist groups on the south side growing in popularity, the violent attacks against the TCs that visit the south, it is clear for anyone to see the same in todays times, too.

While you think your problem is with the TCs and Turkey, your problem is with the Greeks and Greek Cypriots that started the problem in the first place. Go to Makarios' family and claim compensation from them, because it is his call for Enosis that caused this problem for you.

So you may complain as much as you like to the European court, to international courts, paint any sob story you can imagine in your wildest dreams but Turkey will not be fooled and history will never repeat itself. So if your role on this forum is to insidiously "convert" the expat community to your way of thinking, you should give up now.

[frontalman]

Barney, this forum was set up as an information point for expats living or thinking of living in the TRNC. We have thrown our lot in with the Turkish Cypriot people, though we have very little influence on what goes on here. We have minimal influence and no vote. I have heard your anger, your comments have been noted and accepted in a spirit of friendship but I don't understand what you expect to achieve. I agree it seems unfair that you are deprived because of your Greek name, but their are lots of unfair things that happen the other way too. Why don't you try to communicate with TCs who have a vote on social media. You are flogging a dead horse here.

[Marions]

Could someone please explain what v this is about other than a couple of people seemingly getting to say that the north is in the wrong and south is right. This forum is to do wih the north and to provide useful information. Throwing up history in all its colours is of little value in looking to a bright hued tomorrow.
Everyone had an opinion about 'yesterday'but we need to look to 'tomorrow. '
I will not lock this thread but i think the c time had come for soner to consider locking it as it is achieving little Other than hurt.-and such is not the purpose of kibkom

[DenizIsmail]

Well, said totally agree. Lets move on

[Lurucinali]

Have we given up learning about the Cyprus Problem? That is certainly one of the solution to the Cyprus Problem. It does not surprise me though that British people do not want to discuss this after all their government was involved in every step of creating this problem from the beginning.

If this is causing hurt imagine what the 240,000 Cypriots both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot feel about losing their property for over 42 years and some even 53 years.

But have no fear this will be my last post here.
Good luck to you all.

[Barney]

For your information I have close GC relatives who have related their personal experiences of Cyprus and in particular the invasion. 1.) The worst massacres took place AFTER Turkey invaded - thousands were killed on both sides AFTER Turkey invaded.
I have visited Cyprus many times recently, the last time after driving past my 2.)stolen house, I visited my Grandparent's 3.)desecrated graves in Komi Kebir and the 4.)looted churches, would you like to see the photos? Both sides suffered, stop trying to play the innocent victim.
By the way, how come several thousand Turkish Cypriots CHOOSE to live in the south of the ROC if things are so bad?

I have bolded the propaganda here just in case someone might actually take what you are saying for granted.

1.) Maybe I should have rephrased massacres to genocide in that case, because the only genocide that occurred was before the war and affected the TCs and was perpetrated by Greeks. This is accepted world-wide as a fact.

The massacres that occurred during the war is quite natural when a weak opponent faces a stronger opponent, loss of life is never a good thing but don't fight a huge powerful army and then complain you lost.

2.) Your house was "stolen" in the same way a Turks house in the south side was "stolen", it was to prevent an on-going genocide. The fact it was people from your culture committing the genocide somewhat moots this point when comparing to the Turkish who were the victim of the genocides and THEN had their house "stolen".

In reality, however, land was exchanged and ironically the Greeks are the only ones complaining about their receipt of exchanged land even though their land is worth vastly more than the equivalent on the North Side now because of embargoes.

3.) This one is quite shameful, I go through the mountains in remote parts of the north all the time and find loads of hidden grave yards and I have yet to find a single "desecrated" grave so far even where it would be easy to get away with doing it. This is simply a lie to say the TCs went around desecrating Greek graces, unless you don't understand what they word means of course.

If you want to defend this point where they are and I will go sometime and take photos toprove you wrong, at the expense of your credibility, likewise to not provide the details is at the expense of your credibility. At worse there are old grave stones that are falling over or broken with age as you'd find in an old grave yard in the UK. There will be no "death to greeks" written on any of them.

4.) I don't doubt this. In the UK when the student fees went up the students looted the shops, whenever there is a riot people loot, on black Friday people have looted. Do you have any doubt that properties on the south were not looted? During a war would you not be surprised if there was NO looting?

The reason I point this out is that this is yet another propaganda point for Greeks, "how could they loot our CHURCHES? Such barbarians, those Turks".

The real barbarians of those times are clear for anyone to see. On the basis of the racist groups on the south side growing in popularity, the violent attacks against the TCs that visit the south, it is clear for anyone to see the same in todays times, too.

While you think your problem is with the TCs and Turkey, your problem is with the Greeks and Greek Cypriots that started the problem in the first place. Go to Makarios' family and claim compensation from them, because it is his call for Enosis that caused this problem for you.

So you may complain as much as you like to the European court, to international courts, paint any sob story you can imagine in your wildest dreams but Turkey will not be fooled and history will never repeat itself. So if your role on this forum is to insidiously "convert" the expat community to your way of thinking, you should give up now.

1. Instead of making up "accepted world facts" quote an independent verifiable source for your claims of genocide.
2. There was never a need to displace thousands of Cypriots in order to stop inter communal killings. Turkey's intervention could have forced a return to the Zurich Agreement.
3. Go to Komi Kebir/Büyükkonuk with your camera and take some photos of the two wrecked churches and then of the graveyard outside the village (near the Turkish one) Unfortunately I seem unable to upload them here.
4. You must go around the north with your eyes closed if you have not seen the looted churches. The looting in Cyprus was condoned by the authorities in the north, they stood by whilst it happened, practically the entire contents of the ghost town of Varosha was systematically loaded onto trucks and removed.

I'm afraid we will have to disagree as to who "started it", I suppose it depends on how far back you want to go, 1958? 1831? Or 1571? I suggest you ditch your copy of the genocide files and read some more authoritative material, there's some links in this thread. I doubt I can "convert" any expat who lives in north Cyprus but I get fed up with hysterical claims like yours of "genocide". According to official records 364 Turkish Cypriots and 174 Greek Cypriots were killed in the 1963/64 crisis, it sound likes the “genocide” worked both ways. Both sides must bear responsibility for the Cyprus tragedy, it's a difficult one to solve but the presence of outsiders who "buy" Greek Cypriot land compounds the problem.

[Barney]

Barney, this forum was set up as an information point for expats living or thinking of living in the TRNC. We have thrown our lot in with the Turkish Cypriot people, though we have very little influence on what goes on here. We have minimal influence and no vote. I have heard your anger, your comments have been noted and accepted in a spirit of friendship but I don't understand what you expect to achieve. I agree it seems unfair that you are deprived because of your Greek name, but their are lots of unfair things that happen the other way too. Why don't you try to communicate with TCs who have a vote on social media. You are flogging a dead horse here.

And I have given you information about what led up to the current impasse and how, with Turkey's help, you managed to acquire OUR property on the cheap. No doubt lots of things are unfair, will you just take it on the chin and leave Cyprus if there is a settlement that deprives you of your home in the north?

Some want this thread locked because I challenge their one sided view of the roots of the Cyprus problem so perhaps I've hit a nerve or two, perhaps some of the more open minded expats have realised that there are two sides to the story. Others couldn't care a toss about Cypriots, they have their stolen properties in the north - that's all they care about, many knew nothing about the history of Cyprus until they became aware of the cheap places in the sun up for grabs.

[Marions]

Barney you are heading to being banned. Stop the constant justification of the south. Kibkom does not need it or want it.
And to the original pos t er thank you for bowing out or you would have been banned too. (Can't help wondering on your true identity as you obviosly have a double pseudynym)
I repeat kibkom exists to extol the beauties that this country has to offer in every level -not to muck rake on its history.

[Marions]

On second thoughts barney is banned for insults to many kibkomers. He/she didn't know who they are yet continues to make damning assumptions about them.
Many have lived and worked both sides of the border and ate intelligent and thoughtful people. Insulting them is out of place in terms of being a kibkomer and using this forum

[turtle]

That's a terrible decision...
Barney is entitled to his views whether you agree with them or not.

If people want to live under a "blanket" then perhaps an open forum is not the place to hang around..... Just my opinion

[tomsteel]

turtle, whether you, or I, agree or not with the decision (and you patently do not), the owner of the forum has stated many times on here that moderators decisions are final. It's like any community or sport, there are rules to comply with. If you do not like them, do not play. Personally, I hope you stay as you often contribute to lively debate. Enjoy the sun here.

[Keithcaley]

Tom, I agree with you that the moderators' decisions are theirs alone to make.

I do lament this particular decision, however.

The oft used phrase 'If you don't like it, then don't read it' springs to mind

...and with 1,169 views to date, it appears that plenty of people did actually want to read it - if only to disagree with it!

I've read every word so far, and watched all of the video clips...

[tomsteel]

Keith, d'accord. I enjoyed the debate and have been to the village twice since moving here permanently 8 years ago, have GC friends living in the RoC and TC friends living in the TRNC. I have, on and off, been visiting and living in Cyprus since 1970 and been exposed to all forms of opinion on the cause/effect et al. What had gone on before must now be confined to more history. Cypriots, of whatever ethnicity, must decide their future but should not be prevented from doing so because of some arcane decision to deny a section of the community a right in the world at large. IMHO of course.

As ever, its good to talk!

[frontalman]

Barney has an axe to grind but just went on and on and on and on. He made his point but always seemed to want the last word. He seems just as blind to the truth, as he accused some of us as being. He seems driven to convince everyone that he is right, not a good space to be in, unfortunately.

[Keithcaley]

Hi Mark,

There's an easy way to shut him up then, just let him have the last word - don't respond

[frontalman]

Looks like he's had his last word, unless he springs up under a different name.

[waddo]

The return of Private Pike springs to mind!!!!

[turtle]

Barney has an axe to grind but just went on and on and on and on. He made his point but always seemed to want the last word. He seems just as blind to the truth, as he accused some of us as being. He seems driven to convince everyone that he is right, not a good space to be in, unfortunately.

But is this a crime to warrant a ban ?
The bloke has a passion for what he was arguing about and I see nothing wrong with this but I seem to be in the minority on this so I'll get me coat .

[Soner]

A tough one in my opinion. Good to hear from the other side, and agree that all sides are to blame for one thing or another. But my moderators know what they are doing and obviously could see where this was all heading. Simply, stick to forum rules and refrain from personal attacks.

[Groucho]

Barney's only reason to be on this forum was to stir things up... and be quite rude in the process. It's a shame he had to be banned but it would only have become worse over time - anyone who could see how it was becoming more and more inflamed and how his incessant rhetoric never changed must have seen that this was where it was heading.

A drunk in the pub challenging all to dust up? In the end you'd expect the landlord to apply the defenestration solution, would you not?

[Keithcaley]

Defenestration?

You must go in some rough pubs!

[frontalman]

He had a good run for his money - more than I have ever got on South Cyprus forums!

[kaiserphil]

Defenestration?

You must go in some rough pubs!

Bit of defenestration here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsEH578NiWY

[Groucho]

Defenestration?

You must go in some rough pubs!

No we never venture to the west of Girne....

[DenizIsmail]

President Anastasiades said Tuesday’s meeting, between himself and President Akinci, had focused on internal security and administrative powers and was “productive”.

He added that convergences had been reached during the meeting, but would not give details. Friday’s session would launch discussion on issues of “significant importance, including territorial adjustments, security, and guarantees”, he said.

Cant wait for Friday!