Would you live in Luton? Take a look at this!

[Marions]

I am horrified as to what Britain has become. I am not a nationalist nor a Royalist, but suddenly I realise that I probably am as I watched this video. No idea when it was taken, but it makes me realise how life has changed in the country in which I was born, and how the British Government have an impossible task (created by themselves due to love and leniency) but .. never mind what I dhtink - what do you. Take a look at the following:-





This is crazy... It will blow your mind..

[Deniz1]

According to my daughter its the same inmany places. she was caught up in last years riots and she was terrified. How I wish she was here.

[Soner]

Just another example of extremism. Goes on all over the world, regardless of religion, nationality, race..... It's a great shame that it happens and some people can not be more balanced in their ideology.

[yorgozlu]

Just another example of extremism. Goes on all over the world, regardless of religion, nationality, race..... It's a great shame that it happens and some people can not be more balanced in their ideology.

I disagree Soner.Relegion and nationality only entres ones mind when the opposite part is in minority of the sorroundings and majorities bahaving/kind of living.When the minorities refuse to mingle in is when everything else follows on.Kind of brings to mind of 'do as romans when in rome'.
23 years in a 'foreign' country,I never had any big problems as far as not being english is concerned(other then the odd few,which I willingly helped to change their mind)

so,balancing the idealogy is 2 ways.

I certainly wouldn't want to live in Luton,Bradford.....etc,but I'd willingly live in Brixton.If you get what I mean.

[Marions]

I have lived in several foreign countries (and still do!) but have always accepted that I adapt to its culture, or leave. It is a matter of respect. For instance I know i could not fit in Saudi Arabia, so I don't go there, and I feel that immigrants should respect the laws of the land, regardless of religion or nationality. I feel the people in this video are USING religion not living by it. True religion is about love, compassion, understanding, respect and all those qualities that make us the best humans we can be. all else is selfishness and has nothing to do with true religion - none of them.
today for instance, we had an hour of prayer running through the village because the lad up the road has returned from the army. I thought I understood Islam, but this drove me nuts. So I shut the windows. It drove me nuts because I could not understand why a lad who has been in the army for ayear - never done battle - just seemed to peel spuds and put on weight, needed an hour of prayer. But it is not mine to question. I accept or shove off. I think that immigrants to u.K should be the same. The laws, the authroities, the police, the neighbours, the religion of the land - all should be respected.

[Soner]

yorgozlu, I kind of get what you are saying. But then again you would live in Luton or Bradford if what you saw on the video did not exist.

[Marions]

And don't forget that Brixton is fairly full of Christians who are joyful and happy - . quite different. And they wear joyful colours and don't tell anyone they are 'naked' when fully clad, and don't go against the system too much, as they were originally part of the British Commonwealth invited over like Dick Whittingtons to London to work for the transport system. The Moslem immigrants and their offspring are of a totally different mind set. Maybe that is why Brixton is more acceptable.

[paddywack]

Marions,
This is nothing new, you must have left the U.K. a long time ago. 10 years ago we retired from Surrey to rural and I mean rural Ireland, even then enough was enough.

[Marions]

You are right PaddyWack. I was born in London, but moved out to |kent in the seventies, then on to Wales and since then pretty much all over the place, apart from a spell in Somerset. So i have not been touched by these changes. That is why I am so horrified But I am even more horrified that it has been allowed to happen.
And what saddens me is that good honest decent folk are trapped and cannot move. If you don't have the money and things change around you, there is little you can do. I relaly feel sorry for them. I might not have the money i would like - does anyone - but I feel safer here in Cyprus than I would back in the area of London from which I hail.

[Marions]

and I have just been informed (told you I did not know how old the video was) that this particular group has been banned, but that there are others that should be banned. And I was castigated by a friend because I bother with such c..p. But I didn't know it was happening - and I think my question was 'How old is this and what has been done'. But it just shows how tolerant people in U.K have become that live with this - maybe not in their own neighbourhood but in their own country.
But they don't live in Luton either!

[blackbird]

I have to say that where I live there is nothing like that. However, I did find the video disturbing.......

[Sandman]

This is nothing new and whilst these extremists are bigoted and dangerous they are not much different from the famous "firebrand" Paisley who preached hatred and division for decades and now is a member of the house of lords !!!
But anyway I find their demonstration insulting and would have thought the police should have had something to say about conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace!?
You have white supremists on one extreme and muslim supremists on the other.
Both should be stopped!!!

[paddywack]

Paisley practices the religeon of the country he lives in, he is not trying to overthrow an adopted country that gives him sanctuary and a lifestyle he can only get from state backing.

[Marions]

I agree with both of the last two posts. I have met Paisley and at least he is for his own people in his own country. The Muslim extremists are in a way worse than the white ones in U.K because it is an insult. I feel that all extremists who trample on the rights of others should be halted but even more where they are 'guests' in the country (maybe born there, but certail.y not the religion of the country which embraces (with love) all other understandings. Hence hatred should not be flung back at loving actions. But what is to do?

[iancrumpy]

Marion, to quote you and other on this thread, they are "Muslim extremists", and in that their views don't represent the vast majority of Muslims living peacefully in the UK. Let's not use this forum to further spread the "Islamophobia" currently creeping across the western (Christian) world.

With regard to state handouts, as mentioned by Paddywack, excluding the much publicised revelations of those received by Anjem Choudary, is there any firm evidence to support claims that UK muslims are on average receiving more handouts than their non-muslim counterparts ... probably not ...

[Marions]

this is nothing to do with Islamaphobia. I have studied Islam, and I have many islamic friends, as I do of many faiths and nationalities. What I object to is that the \british Government allow this to happen where a local girl who happens to be white is told to go home and get dressed and that she is going to hell because she is not a muslim. It is the fact that U.K is a Christian country and its values should be upheld . Australia has a policy of stating very clearly that they have their language, religion and values and anyone is welcome to live under them and if they don't like it, they are free to leave. This thread was created solely to ask why my country has become what it has and how much people are aware of it and to ask what the government is doing. Maybe concerned British citizens who feel that something should be done can be motivated to ask the government to ensure that ALL human rights are respected. it was amazing to me that one of the men in the video did not even know his Koran!
as to state handouts, it is not the number that is in question, it is the morality of anyone who takes money from a government and then condemns it.
so mr Crumpy we agree to differ and I feel it is a good thing for this forum to be able to discuss important issues, especially for those of us who have lost the close contact we had with the land of our birth and who carry very fond memories of its neighbourliness and unity.

[icklepix]

I lived in Luton for 3 years and am happy to say I never witnessed anything like that, am glad I don't live there anymore!!

[iancrumpy]

Marion,

Re : "A local girl who happens to be white is told to go home and get dressed and that she is going to hell because she is not a muslim"
As stated before, this girl was told such things by exremists ... let me reiterate Marion ... "by extremists" ... not by your average peace-loving UK Muslim. So let's not tarnish all Muslims with the same brush. Let's not encourage mobs to go out on to the streets of, say, Hackney and break the windows of the law-abiding Turkish Cypriots living there.

Re : "As to the handouts, it is not the number that is in question, it is the morality of anyone who takes money from a government and then condemns it." Marion, do we have any figures telling (at least roughly) what percentage of those UK Muslims claiming benefit act in such a way? - I guess not.
I am aware that you wrote "it is not the number in question", but this matter for many out there is a bone of contention. However, I would hazard a guess that UK Muslims on average actually claim less benefit than their non-Muslim counterparts - In my experience of teaching and living in London, I found the UK Muslims to be more hard-working than other ethnic groups. Though, like others on this thread, I have no hard evidence to support this claim.

Nevertheless Marion, the demonstrators reaction to the girl's presence was unpleasant, but many people would react in a similar way, if asked such loaded questions; questions which were clearly designed to provoke such a reaction.

Let me make it clear that I am not condoning the actions of extremists, but I do worry as to how the Christian world is reacting to the antics of a minority of Muslim extremists ... my son (from a previous marriage) is Muslim and I'd like him to visit England in the future ... hopefully, this current anti-Muslim backlash won't cause a problem for him ...

[paddywack]

Just like 44, when you read some posts, you can always tell what foot they dig with.

[Marions]

sorry paddywack, you have lost me here? I think I must be having a brain clogged day. Please explain. And to Ian, you are going over the same ground as before, and I am so sorry if you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am a Londoner by birth, but have lived out of it for a long time, but remember when the West Indians came to Brixton and how that changed the face of the market stalls, and that was in the days when it was said 'Surely you would not let your daughter marry a black man!' - a racism to which I never subscribed. And sadly it was offspring of these folk that rioted in brixton causing much damage - and they were technically 'Christian' - so please pardon me if you seem to think I am anti Muslem, I am not.
But it would be interesting to learn what other people think of this kind of situation in U.K (in particular because I am a citizen of that country) and anywhere in the world.

[paddywack]

Marion's,
It is a saying to differentiate between opposing reigious and political sides.

[iancrumpy]

Re : "I am so sorry if you are misunderstanding what I am saying" - Marion, that is rather patronising of you - I fully understand what you are trying to say - I just don't agree with you ... at least, that is, not on this matter - posting a link showing the actions of an extremist minority isn't going to ease racial tensions in the UK.

As you wrote earlier, we will indeed agree to differ on this matter ...

[woodspeckie]

5 men arrested this morning in Luton in anti-terror raid, no imminent danger to the UK but significant arrests.

[Marions]

thanks, as that is a kind of answer to my question. It shows that the Government IS doing something to try to create a balance within the society. Thanks for passing on the info.

[Sandman]

Preaching hate and rabble rousing is indefensible whatever background or circumstances and is targeted at the easily led and weak minded.
And apologists for such behaviour are as bad as the preachers.
As Blaise Pascal wrote "men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction".
These people need to be stopped but that is a matter for the law - such as it is !!!

[iancrumpy]

"Preaching hate and rabble rousing is indefensible whatever background or circumstances and is targeted at the easily led and weak "

I totally agree Sandman. But we should also be careful so as not to create an environment whereby law-abiding, peace-loving UK Muslims are victimised by "easily led and weak" (right-wing) individuals ...

[Marions]

Agree and disagree, Crumpy. The statement "But we should also be careful so as not to create an environment whereby law-abiding, peace-loving UK Muslims are victimised by "easily led and weak" (right-wing) individuals ........." should read U.K.citizens'. Wrong is wrong in any religion, and I for one find it extremely difficult to accept that the Christians are oppressed in so far as you cannot announce a Christmas CarolService; some people are not allowed to wear a cross around their neck. Total negation of their freedom, - a freedom the country has enjoyed for centuries (just!). So, my complaint is that the British Government is not doing enough to uphold the true values of the country, the ones that Queen Elizabeth has been living.
It is not so much the religion that is at fault, but the human heart.

[iancrumpy]

Hi again Marion
From reading your posts on other threads I, more often than not, agree with what you have to write. I also appreciate that you read all the posts in a thread before commenting. I too do the same.
As a result, perhaps I need some further explanation from you - As someone who is "not a royalist" (your original post) how do you reconcile that with a yearning for "the true values that Queen Elizabeth has been living" (your last post)?

[Keithcaley]

Marion and Crumpy,

It seems to me that you are both decent, honest , rational people, who are trying to arrive at an agreement / understanding of an issue, but are getting lost in the semantics - 'tangled up in the words that you are using' - you seem to me to be arguing the same point from different starting positions.

It's so easy to lose track of the real issue, and be side-lined by a particular phrase or word...

So please, try to 'listen' to each other - and don't talk 8/3 pi r cubed! - Crumpy, you might have to explain that to Marion!!

regards,

Keith.

[Marions]

I think this thread has run its course. Beginning to come off the original posting. |Maybe it is time for Soner to close this thread, unless anyone else has any positive contribution of thoughts.