BREXIT and Brit access to the south.

[PoshinDevon]

Not frustration for me.

We were always aware there would be changes to crossing the border but that was not something that was so high up to warrant us thinking we must consider remaining in the EU.

We travelled before we joined the EU and will travel after/if we leave, whatever agreements or arrangements are in place.

[erol]

Not frustration for me.

But do you really doubt that for many 'frustration' with any number of things informed their decision ?

[Mondo]

I can understand the total frustration felt by many that led to the 'out' vote - but very few realised they were voting to have the economy damaged and that they would end up poorer. Unfortunately it wasn't the EU that imposed such awful austerity upon them-but successive governments over many years. It is apparent that many now see the reality and would now vote remain.
Virtually all the Leave voters I have spoken to in the TRNC did not believe that there would be any border issues whatsoever. They said the South needed our trade too much. The RoC is bound by EU rules of entry laid down by the EU for non EU nationals-they must abide by them-this will change everything but most people living here are still totally in denial.

[PoshinDevon]

Not frustration for me.

But do you really doubt that for many 'frustration' with any number of things informed their decision ?

Erol, just to clarify there are many reasons I want to leave the EU. The crossing of the border in Cyprus or travelling to the TRNC was nowhere near the top of my list for wanting to leave.

There were many other reasons and despite the mess that is being made of it all (Could they do a worse job.... I doubt it) , I am still as you are aware waiting for the UK to leave and get on with moving forward.

Don’t want to take this topic in a different direction as this is primarily about access/travel across the border post Brexit. The other topic with the Brexit poll is the one to discuss this ongoing Brexit saga. I am sure that there were many who were/are frustrated with the EU and voted leave. Is this frustration a reason not to vote leave? Well after 40+ years you cannot really blame people for voting the way they did.

This is going off topic so this is something for the other Brexit topic.

[elizabeth]

I can understand the total frustration felt by many that led to the 'out' vote - but very few realised they were voting to have the economy damaged and that they would end up poorer. Unfortunately it wasn't the EU that imposed such awful austerity upon them-but successive governments over many years. It is apparent that many now see the reality and would now vote remain.
Virtually all the Leave voters I have spoken to in the TRNC did not believe that there would be any border issues whatsoever. They said the South needed our trade too much. The RoC is bound by EU rules of entry laid down by the EU for non EU nationals-they must abide by them-this will change everything but most people living here are still totally in denial.

I really do find these sort of comments annoying, do you really believe that 17 million people had no idea what they were voting for, and as to how many of them would now vote to remain, of course some may have changed their mind but so have some remainers so please try to accept that fact too.
As for crossing to the South, again I wish you would credit people with some intelligence, of course people realized that things would change after Brexit.
For myself if I can't cross to the South then I can live with that, I did before the borders opened and am sure I will survive, after all we chose to live here, nobody forced us'

[Trigger]

do you really believe that 17 million people had no idea what they voted for

The majority of them, yes.

[elizabeth]

do you really believe that 17 million people had no idea what they voted for

The majority of them, yes.

Those sort of remarks do you no favors at all.

[PoshinDevon]

Unfortunately even now 3 years on there still remains the attitude that the 17M who voted to leave are somehow of a lesser intelligence and gave little thought to the leave process.

I am comfortable with my leave vote, understood that any deal whatever it was would never be perfect and have in not changed my mind. I am more than willing to compromise even if it’s really not the solution I would prefer. What the last few months have shown is that the attitude of some on the EU side is very concerning and I find it strange that people on the remain side are happy to ignore this and not make comment.

[jimm]

Why on earth do people want to go south, I can get everything I want in the TRNC and have always flown to Ercan and I am not in the south of the UK

[PoshinDevon]

Why on earth do people want to go south, I can get everything I want in the TRNC and have always flown to Ercan and I am not in the south of the UK

Because we love the whole of the island of Cyprus and it’s great to explore both the north and south. It’s a fantastic island and we just love to opportunity to visit old haunts from years ago and stay a night or two in different places all over the island both in the north and south.

It’s not just about shopping or what we can get in the TRNC.

We just prefer to base ourselves in the north as on balance we prefer the way of life, people and food.

[erol]

I find it strange that people on the remain side are happy to ignore this and not make comment.

Give us a chance

Unfortunately even now 3 years on there still remains the attitude that the 17M who voted to leave are somehow of a lesser intelligence and gave little thought to the leave process.

I think ignorant people exist. I think there were ignorant people who voted remain as there were ignorant people who voted leave. I do not believe that there is any correlation between how you voted in the referendum and how ignorant you are. Over the years I have contributed to discussion here on brexit, as someone who voted remain, I have never made the claim that leave voters voted so because they are more ignorant than those who voted remain. I am pretty sure I have in past challenged such views as explicitly as I have done here. For the record I do not think the caller in the video link I posted is ignorant. I think he is confused to a certain degree but given the predominance of 'heat' vs 'light' that has been part of all our daily lives since we first joined the EEC, I do not find that surprising.

I - me personally - WAS however totally ignorant of just how badly the Tory party was going to pursue the objective of leaving the EU should the vote request that and the degree to which they would be prepared to f up my life and gamble with it playing petty politics in order to try and keep the Tory party from destroying itself whilst it pursued an exit. I was ignorant of that back when I voted in the referendum and imo anyone who was not is not a just a genius but a seer.

I am more than willing to compromise even if it’s really not the solution I would prefer.

But not on remaining in any for of customs union for now whilst we sort out the other challenges with leaving everything else ?

What the last few months have shown is that the attitude of some on the EU side is very concerning and I find it strange that people on the remain side are happy to ignore this and not make comment.

With the utmost of respect I suspect there may be some element here of 'seeing what you want to see' ? There are those, maybe a minority but they exist, who supported remain in the referendum who have consistently rejected the notion that 'leavers voted leave because they are ignorant', of which I consider myself one. Yes there are those who voted leave that hold such an opinion and they are entitled to it the same as any other just as there are those who voted leave who have the opinion that everyone who voted remain is now and has been and indeed must be, since the result, hell bent on trying to thwart the vote result and subvert democracy like spoilt children that did not get their way. I personally do not find it that strange that there is little evidence here (any ?) of a leaver here explicitly stating something along the lines of 'hang on just because someone voted remain that does not by itself prove that they are hell bent on subverting the result and nothing else' - but perhaps you might oblige now ? Who knows ?

[erol]

Why on earth do people want to go south, I can get everything I want in the TRNC and have always flown to Ercan and I am not in the south of the UK

For what it is worth, as a Cypriot by birth right I believe that all of Cyprus is 'mine', to visit, to explore, to experience, to love and to enjoy. Probably a bit 'guardian reading leftist' a sentiment for some here but there you have it. And yes as a Cypriot Brexit does not impact on my ability to do that but I was trying to answer your question as to 'why'. As just a person living in the North I personally find quite a lot of stuff that I can not get here in the north that I can find in the south and even more stuff that I can not find in either but that I can order online from an EU based supplier and have shipped easily and relatively quickly and cheaply to a PO Box in the south, that ordered to a PO Box in the north, if such is an option at all, requires more delay and cost.

[PoshinDevon]

I find it strange that people on the remain side are happy to ignore this and not make comment.

Give us a chance

Unfortunately even now 3 years on there still remains the attitude that the 17M who voted to leave are somehow of a lesser intelligence and gave little thought to the leave process.

I think ignorant people exist. I think there were ignorant people who voted remain as there were ignorant people who voted leave. I do not believe that there is any correlation between how you voted in the referendum and how ignorant you are. Over the years I have contributed to discussion here on brexit, as someone who voted remain, I have never made the claim that leave voters voted so because they are more ignorant than those who voted remain. I am pretty sure I have in past challenged such views as explicitly as I have done here. For the record I do not think the caller in the video link I posted is ignorant. I think he is confused to a certain degree but given the predominance of 'heat' vs 'light' that has been part of all our daily lives since we first joined the EEC, I do not find that surprising.

I - me personally - WAS however totally ignorant of just how badly the Tory party was going to pursue the objective of leaving the EU should the vote request that and the degree to which they would be prepared to f up my life and gamble with it playing petty politics in order to try and keep the Tory party from destroying itself whilst it pursued an exit. I was ignorant of that back when I voted in the referendum and imo anyone who was not is not a just a genius but a seer.

I am more than willing to compromise even if it’s really not the solution I would prefer.

But not on remaining in any for of customs union for now whilst we sort out the other challenges with leaving everything else ?

What the last few months have shown is that the attitude of some on the EU side is very concerning and I find it strange that people on the remain side are happy to ignore this and not make comment.

With the utmost of respect I suspect there may be some element here of 'seeing what you want to see' ? There are those, maybe a minority but they exist, who supported remain in the referendum who have consistently rejected the notion that 'leavers voted leave because they are ignorant', of which I consider myself one. Yes there are those who voted leave that hold such an opinion and they are entitled to it the same as any other just as there are those who voted leave who have the opinion that everyone who voted remain is now and has been and indeed must be, since the result, hell bent on trying to thwart the vote result and subvert democracy like spoilt children that did not get their way. I personally do not find it that strange that there is little evidence here (any ?) of a leaver here explicitly stating something along the lines of 'hang on just because someone voted remain that does not by itself prove that they are hell bent on subverting the result and nothing else' - but perhaps you might oblige now ? Who knows ?

There are and ignorant people on both sides that is certain. However; as I said 3 years on it continues to be pushed that those that voted to leave the EU must somehow be a sandwich short of a picnic. Becomes annoying.

A simple google/you tube search bring up plenty of unhelpful comments/gaffs by senior EU politicians. My concern is that if they cannot keep these under control in a serious negotiating process then it does not bear well for the future. The fact is that whilst U.K. politicians have made grave errors, on the EU side they have also said/made statements which are unhelpful and at times concerning........the burn in Hell comment? If people can somehow ignore, forget or just take no notice of what these people are saying then I question their judgement.

Compromise.....I have indicated here I am happy to compromise. The PMs deal is my compromise.....not perfect, not what I would want but let’s get it over the line and then start the serious work. IMO the remain side want no compromise.....just remain. As for customs union....please see my earlier post. Not convinced it would work or be allowed to happen. The Labour Party unicorn solution. I am pretty sure we would have no say in any future deals the EU may negotiate. To suggest that whilst we might not be in the EU but we would have a seat at the table to provide an input is a dream. Not a chance.

Anyway I am just repeating myself, so time to stop rambling.

[erol]

However; as I said 3 years on it continues to be pushed that those that voted to leave the EU must somehow be a sandwich short of a picnic. Becomes annoying.

I do understand that. Do you think or feel that I personally am one of those that has or continues to 'push this' ?

........the burn in Hell comment?

My memory of that specific comment, without looking it up was 'place in hell' rather than 'burn in hell' but I do hear what you are saying

If people can somehow ignore, forget or just take no notice of what these people are saying then I question their judgement.

I do not or do not think I ignore, forget or take no notice at all of things like that. I do think I almost certainly have a significantly different view to you as to how 'bad' such comments are but would it not be very strange if that were not true ?

The PMs deal is my compromise.....

Do you think that me saying that I would accept that same deal as you as a way forward from where we are right now, as I have, is evidence of willingness compromise on my part as someone who voted to remain, comparable to your willingness ? Or am I , me personally, in your view part of "the remain side" that "want no compromise.....just remain" ?

not perfect, not what I would want but let’s get it over the line and then start the serious work. IMO the remain side want no compromise.....just remain. As for customs union....please see my earlier post. Not convinced it would work or be allowed to happen. The Labour Party unicorn solution. I am pretty sure we would have no say in any future deals the EU may negotiate. To suggest that whilst we might not be in the EU but we would have a seat at the table to provide an input is a dream. Not a chance.

I agree that Labours version of that is a 'unicorn' but for me even if we say the customs union, exactly as it is now, with no seat at the table at all, I do not share your view that such either 'could not work' or that the EU would not 'allow' such an exit.

[PoshinDevon]

However; as I said 3 years on it continues to be pushed that those that voted to leave the EU must somehow be a sandwich short of a picnic. Becomes annoying.

I do understand that. Do you think or feel that I personally am one of those that has or continues to 'push this' ?

I don’t think you are pushing this, but there are many who are and just use this as their main argument

........the burn in Hell comment?

My memory of that specific comment, without looking it up was 'place in hell' rather than 'burn in hell' but I do hear what you are saying


Place in Hell or burn in Hell......the comment was cras and from a EU politician to say it at a sensitive time during a negotiation process was unnecessary. It inflamed the situation. Verhofstadt, Junker, Barnier and Macron have all made the same error.

If people can somehow ignore, forget or just take no notice of what these people are saying then I question their judgement.

I do not or do not think I ignore, forget or take no notice at all of things like that. I do think I almost certainly have a significantly different view to you as to how 'bad' such comments are but would it not be very strange if that were not true ?

Maybe it’s a European thing. The comments just add fuel to the fire and at the least are annoying and at worse fuels the wrath of those more militant elements.

The PMs deal is my compromise.....

Do you think that me saying that I would accept that same deal as you as a way forward from where we are right now, as I have, is evidence of willingness compromise on my part as someone who voted to remain, comparable to your willingness ? Or am I , me personally, in your view part of "the remain side" that "want no compromise.....just remain" ?

You have listed a few alternative options, my preferred option is the PMs deal. It’s nowhere near what I would want but it’s a compromise in my opinion.....maybe I have succumbed after all this time, The customs union is not in my opinion a compromise as we there is no say for the U.K., we are tied to the EU and to think they will allow us to sit at the table with them and influence decisions or have an input when not a member I believe is a dream. If we have no say what is the point.

not perfect, not what I would want but let’s get it over the line and then start the serious work. IMO the remain side want no compromise.....just remain. As for customs union....please see my earlier post. Not convinced it would work or be allowed to happen. The Labour Party unicorn solution. I am pretty sure we would have no say in any future deals the EU may negotiate. To suggest that whilst we might not be in the EU but we would have a seat at the table to provide an input is a dream. Not a chance.

I agree that Labours version of that is a 'unicorn' but for me even if we say the customs union, exactly as it is now, with no seat at the table at all, I do not share your view that such either 'could not work' or that the EU would not 'allow' such an exit.

[Chriswright03]

Not frustration for me.

Snip

Don’t want to take this topic in a different direction as this is primarily about access/travel across the border post Brexit. The other topic with the Brexit poll is the one to discuss this ongoing Brexit saga. I am sure that there were many who were/are frustrated with the EU and voted leave. Is this frustration a reason not to vote leave? Well after 40+ years you cannot really blame people for voting the way they did.

This is going off topic so this is something for the other Brexit topic.

Snip

...................................and yet! Perhaps as per the suggestion from Posh this discussion could be carried on in the other topic. Wouldn't it be better to leave this topic for constructive comments about the subject matter ie crossing the border as and when the time comes? That way I would be quite happy to pop in here from time to time to see if I can learn anything new without having to read through the same old arguments.

[PoshinDevon]

This topic has veered off the title. We are all guilty.

Can we try to restrict posts on this topic to access to the south and post any other Brexit comments on the othe Brexit topics.

Thanks

[Soner]

Although not a Brit, see this: https://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/ ... 55&t=46776

[terry2366]

Well for my two pence worth no one knows what's going to happen till it happens. Whatever happens we will still be alive why not wait enjoy the sun and when someone on high decides the way forward we can have a cunning plan. Till then chill it's almost summer.

[erol]

Although not a Brit, see this: https://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/ ... 55&t=46776

Interesting, thanks for posting it Soner - and apologies to all for my part in straying 'off topic' here.

Some thoughts

Despite the claims that for him to 'cross to the north' would be 'illegal' the reason why he was stopped at Larnaca and not for example allowed entry in to the RoC but then denied being able to cross, is that the RoC can make such a decision 'unilaterally' at Larnaca without being in breach of any international agreements they are party to but know that should he be in the RoC they can not do so at the green line crossing point without being in breach of agreements they made with the EU.

I think the RoC have been using this 'strategy' in a highly target manner. I think they targeted Israeli nationals, specifically because of tour operators there selling packages for holidays in the north that transited via the south. This Japanese academic because universities are 'big business' in the north. I also think they are using this disruptive ability incredibly 'sparingly' because they absolutely do not want such actions to be challenged in court for as long as possible, as they know they are on weak ground legally. It is, it seems to me, all about trying to create as much 'FUD' as they can to cause as much disruption to key 'industries' in north without being in direct breach of agreements with the EU and whilst trying to avoid for as long as possible any legal challenge.

[Mowgli597]

One would have thought that with the Cyprus/Israel agreements (?) on hydrocarbon exploration/development that the South would be careful not to harm those relationships.

But it seems as though distaste for anything legitimising North Cyprus Trumps (see what I did there!) even that.

[MoonageDaydream]

~H C has spent many months learning Greek will he now learn Turkish? I dont think so!

This is unfair. The policy is that the High Commissioner is a Greek speaker, and the Deputy High Commissioner a Turkish speaker. Seems logical to me, learning either language is not easy, but learning both would take a very long time. Its not as if the languages are similar like eg Swedish and Danish.

[MoonageDaydream]

Why on earth do people want to go south, I can get everything I want in the TRNC and have always flown to Ercan and I am not in the south of the UK

A number of reasons for wanting to go south. Visiting different places, seeing different sights, going different shops, beaches etc.
I like to Keo beer sometimes for a change, and a friend of mine who lives in the south buys Efes up here for similar reasons. Also you can't buy tarmasalata and tahini in the north, like you can't get a decent ayran in the south.
Some electrical goods and diy products ara available in the south which are not in the north. I recently tried to buy a dehumidifier, and a metal cupboard fr the patio. I, couldn't find on in any of the yapi in the north, went to Leroy Merlin in Nicosia and had a choice of half a dozen. Having said that fresh fruit and veg and petrol are much cheaper in the north, so it depends what you wnat.

Cyprus is not that big, so why should those of who live here only experience a part of it? I had enough of 'small town mentality' when I lived in England, once of the reasons why I moved here.....

[Deniz1]

Supermarkets in the north are full of Tahini!