Racism at the Escape Beach?

[stereotomy]

I should say, I am still shaken by what happened at the Escape beach earlier.

We arrived there with my family around 2:00 pm, and immediately we heard a commotion at the entrance desk. There were two black men arguing with the staff. I missed the most of the conversation but he was saying, "... you are not letting us in because we are black.". One of the men -a big guy- was very frustrated and angry.

I stepped in and asked the staff if that was true. They said they wouldn't let them in because they didn't have any female compaines and they were drinking and disturbing families like us. That seemed a little off to me, but I was convinced. The big guy was still a bit angry, but they had to leave when the staff threatened them to call the police.

Anyway, I didn't mind much and we spent like 2 hours at the beach, and just as we were leaving, there was a group of 6 black people (4 men + 2 women) at the door, standing anxiously.

I was curios and decided to watch what's going on from a distance. One of the guys from earlier had showed up with 3 male friends and 2 ladies, so that they could go in.

But the staff was still unwilling to let them in and showed a very negative attitude towards them. After 10 minutes of waiting, they decided to let 2 ladies and 2 men in, and deny the other 2 men. They left the place in frustration. When the other 4 were entering, he consencended, "I am letting you in but behave well, don't do anything outrageous and no drinking!"

You could see how offended and ashamed those people were from their faces. They were very well dressed and they were all good mannered.

I don't know... I just don't see what those people could have done to deserve this... I felt ashamed myself.

I am not going to Escape beach anymore.

Sorry, if my English is a bit broken.

[terry2366]

Well admission to any establishment is at the discretion of the owners it's not a right. There may have been problems in the past with them you don't know they may have been difficult with the staff before you heard them. They have their other customers to think abaout as well so it's not ne cesarily because they were black.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I’ve heard of a few stories about this kind of thing recently. Hopefully there was a bit of previous with these particular people to justify it.

[Keithcaley]

As everyone is supposed to be entitled to unfettered access to the beach, the Escape Beach employees may have had the right not to allow any individual(s) use of the facilities for which they charge a fee, but they would not have been able, legally, to deny them access to the Beach.

If the OP had called the Police, or advised the visitors to do so, the police would have supported their right to enter, without a fee - if that was their choice.

A similar situation arose at Acapulco resort a couple of years ago, when men who were not accompanied by women were refused entrance, on the somewhat facetious grounds that they might be voyeurs or sexual pests.

At the time, I enquired whether my Husband and I would be allowed to enter without female company - I did not receive a response.

A Public protest at the end of the Kervanseray Belediye Beach when the Merit Hotel attempted to 'Privatise' a section of the beach resulted in the police ordering the hotel staff to remove the barriers and allow the Public to access the area.

[thornaby]

Have always found that the people from Africa to be very polite and well mannered. As K.C points ot all beaches are open freely to public access. I would like to think that the staff at the beach were not being racist but just following out the rules given to them by their bosses.

[Soner]

Some places do have STUPID rules here. Booked a table for 10 people at a hotel in Girne that would not let some of us in due to wearing shorts and sandals or bikini tops under clothing (in mid summer). Funny thing was the restaurant was pretty much on a beach full of bathers.

[Hedge-fund]

Some places do have STUPID rules here. Booked a table for 10 people at a hotel in Girne that would not let some of us in due to wearing shorts and sandals or bikini tops under clothing (in mid summer). Funny thing was the restaurant was pretty much on a beach full of bathers.

To be fair....some blokes just can't carry off the bikini under the clothing look...

[Keithcaley]

To be fair....some blokes just can't carry off the bikini under the clothing look...

Only on Sundays!

[Soner]

To be fair....some blokes just can't carry off the bikini under the clothing look...

Only on Sundays!

It was a Sunday!

[Keithcaley]

To be fair....some blokes just can't carry off the bikini under the clothing look...

Only on Sundays!

It was a Sunday!

See me later!

[solic200]

This policy of having to be in couples has been in place for several years especially at the music venues at night. I have been refused entry in the past with my mates and I’m white, so this thing about racism should not be confused with the rules in place at this venue.
If they felt so strongly about the situation why didn’t they find another beach, no they returned with more people, and this time the couples were allowed in so no act of racism was committed.
There would be no mention on here if it had been white people turned away which I can assure you has occurred. BLM.

[Walesforever]

I’m fed up of this racism card bullshit. It’s happened to white people in the past and nothings been said. So please go get a life and stick your facist BLM rubbish elsewhere

[wanderer]

Walking into the Oakley Arms near Porthmadog on Saturday evening my hearing aids pick up the sounds of the youths by the door talking to each other in English as we get near it changed to Welsh wonder who they were talking about

[Keithcaley]

I’m fed up of this racism card bullshit. It’s happened to white people in the past and nothings been said. So please go get a life and stick your facist BLM rubbish elsewhere

Walesforever, tell me, who raised the spectre of 'this racism card bullshit' - your words?

Msg1) Stereotomy was convinced that it wasn't racism
Msg2) Terry2366 said it's not necessarily because they were black
Msg5) thornaby said I would like to think that the staff at the beach were not being racist but just following out the rules given to them by their bosses

There was no suggestion by anyone posting on this thread that Race was a factor or BLM for that matter until Msgs11,12,13.

For your information, I have a strong interest in promoting the right of EVERYONE to freely access the beaches in TRNC.

I have posted about it in the past, and I have no doubt that I will post about it in the future - regardless of who is involved.

I will not be silenced by someone like you who has an obvious bee in their bonnet about BLM.

[PoshinDevon]

Agree with your post Keithcaley.

We all have our views about the BLM movement and will likely disagree. However; this topic is not about BLM, so please keep to the subject matter before the topic goes downhill.

Thanks.

[Brazen]

I’m fed up of this racism card bullshit. It’s happened to white people in the past and nothings been said. So please go get a life and stick your facist BLM rubbish elsewhere

Walesforever, tell me, who raised the spectre of 'this racism card bullshit' - your words?

Msg1) Stereotomy was convinced that it wasn't racism
Msg2) Terry2366 said it's not necessarily because they were black
Msg5) thornaby said I would like to think that the staff at the beach were not being racist but just following out the rules given to them by their bosses

There was no suggestion by anyone posting on this thread that Race was a factor or BLM for that matter until Msgs11,12,13.

For your information, I have a strong interest in promoting the right of EVERYONE to freely access the beaches in TRNC.

I have posted about it in the past, and I have no doubt that I will post about it in the future - regardless of who is involved.

I will not be silenced by someone like you who has an obvious bee in their bonnet about BLM.

This topic is titled “Racism at the Escape Beach?” which tends to imply that there is.

[Reyntj]

The reality is North Cyprus and turkey are about 40 years behind the likes of the UK In human rights and racism. If you live here you have to accept it.

It's very easy to judge but our UK society was no better at one point.

[Reyntj]

I know of a lady who had to keep it secret that she was a lesbian here as it's simply not acceptable in her community . She has now been given asylum in another country. The Turkish Cypriots have been persecuted and I know when a lot of them moved to the UK in the 70s they also faced racism. It's what happens when cultures mix. Over the last few years there has been a large influx of African students and some of them do cause problems. Many are going about their business of being a student.

[Hedge-fund]

I know of a lady who had to keep it secret that she was a lesbian here as it's simply not acceptable in her community . She has now been given asylum in another country. The Turkish Cypriots have been persecuted and I know when a lot of them moved to the UK 8n the 70s they also from faced racism. It's what happens when cultures mix. Over the last few years there has been a large 8nflux if African students and some of them do cause problems. Many are going about their business if being a student.

Well that's a blatant lie.

As if a lady can keep a secret.....

[Reyntj]

I was watching an old episode of minder yesterday and author Daley referred to someone as a "paki" (please no offence intended) and he said it completely without malice or any intention. It was just acceptable then .if you live here I think you have to accept the culture and act positively by example.

[ljarvo]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it really strange that some of the students here are driving around in brand new Bentleys and Range Rovers etc.

Having been reliably informed that some of these students are running up bar bills of up to $20,000 a night - that's some going!

They are also busy buying cars/iphone anything etc with bitcoins

Its a wonder they have any time to go and study.

[Reyntj]

Yes some are from wealthy families in Africa . Some of it is fraud..I was looking yesterday and turkey's GDP is going down and they will this year fall the 21 richest country by GDP and Nigeria GDP is growing and may overtake turkey. I was renting to blacks in trnc and have witnessed first hand the many instances here if racism that is not acceptable in the UK. I have been told by site agents not to rent to blacks all sorts of stuff. The only people who are paying decent rents are the Africans and many Turkish Cypriots are now renting to them they are supporting the economy. I did read of a main stream trnc politician wanting to ban African students.....

[ljarvo]

Agree with your comments Reynt.

They are certainly keeping the economy going here that's for sure!

[Keithcaley]

I was watching an old episode of minder yesterday and author Daley referred to someone as a "paki" (please no offence intended) and he said it completely without malice or any intention. It was just acceptable then .if you live here I think you have to accept the culture and act positively by example.

We're going rather off-topic here, but you did make me chuckle...

The first time that I heard that expression was in the late 70's - I was a TV repairman, trying to locate an address on the 'Portobello estate' in East Hull - in desperation I knocked on a door at random, to ask directions, and a gentleman sporting a full set of whiskers and wearing a Turban answered the door. He wouldn't have looked out of place waving a sabre on the North west Frontier , to be honest.

I showed him the address that I was trying to find, and he shouted an incomprehensible question to the occupants of the house - there was a garbled response that I didn't understand, and he turned to me in all seriousness , pointed, and said ........"It's the Paki shop on the corner".

That was my introduction to the word!

[Walesforever]

I’m fed up of this racism card bullshit. It’s happened to white people in the past and nothings been said. So please go get a life and stick your facist BLM rubbish elsewhere

Walesforever, tell me, who raised the spectre of 'this racism card bullshit' - your words?

Msg1) Stereotomy was convinced that it wasn't racism
Msg2) Terry2366 said it's not necessarily because they were black
Msg5) thornaby said I would like to think that the staff at the beach were not being racist but just following out the rules given to them by their bosses

There was no suggestion by anyone posting on this thread that Race was a factor or BLM for that matter until Msgs11,12,13.

For your information, I have a strong interest in promoting the right of EVERYONE to freely access the beaches in TRNC.

I have posted about it in the past, and I have no doubt that I will post about it in the future - regardless of who is involved.

I will not be silenced by someone like you who has an obvious bee in their bonnet about BLM.

I think you will find the title of the message suggests differently

[benjaminbutton]

Don't care what anyone says, it happens here. I've been in a takeaway place with 4 black students (one woman and 3 men) not actually in a proper queue, but quite clearly were in front of me, they have been totally ignored and I've been asked what I wanted. I told the assistant to take their order first. The same has happened in a mobile phone shop, a stationers and a post office. Smell the roses people, it does happen here!! BLM was not involved, it was just plain bad manners as far as I was concerned.

[iancrumpy]

I think you will find the title of the message suggests differently

I personally wouldn't have used the word "racism" in the subject of the thread, but stereotomy deserves praise in that (s)he felt it needed debate ... hence the question mark. And where better for such a discussion than this forum.

Others contributed in a very civil way - In particular, Terry2366 and ETS made valid comments by suggesting the said beach-goers may have been rude in the past. Solic200 also made a valid point that unaccompanied males are often denied admission to such places, and furthermore there wouldn't even have been such a thread if the beach-goers had been white. Others such as Thornaby made very positive comments about the African students living amongst us. Keithcaley raised the matter that admission to any TRNC beach can not in fact be denied to anyone. To maybe add an even more convivial tone to the thread, Soner made the comment that some restaurants etc here have some quirky admission/dress rules. In general, the matter was all being discussed in a very civil and mature manner until message 12, when Walesforever wrote "I’m fed up of this racism card bullshit ... go get a life and stick your facist (sic) BLM rubbish elsewhere".

[EnjoyingTheSun]

My take on this is TRNC does seem a bit like England was 50 years ago so maybe things such as racism both subtle and overt follow suit.

My truck with BLM and the like is I believe they over-exaggerate racism in the UK and seem to want to create division.

That isn't to say there isn't racism in the UK, because there will always be bigots and sadly there is no way you will ever eliminate that.
But I don't think it is anywhere near the problem it was back in the 70s and those who say it is are either too young to remember or have an agenda.

The fact is in the UK, unlike here, if you was to advertise your house for rent and say no African's you will have broken the law. If you are proved to have discriminated against anyone based on colour, race, sexuality etc, you have broken the law.
I think in day to day life people don't tolerate racism disguised as banter as they did back in the 70s so peer pressure comes heavily into play. Those who might have remained quiet will now speak up.
The UK is not a comfortable place anymore for people to be openly racist.

The whole nonsense that only white people can be racists isn't true.
I generally lived in multi cultural areas, the school I went in the 70s was 50% BAME even back then. You would see Black People and Asian people abuse each other. West Indians and Africans abuse each other and even within the West Indian community you have big island small island rivalry.

The fact is Britain changed from being a very white Island in the 40s to a more and more multi cultural island from the 50s onwards. There were bound to be teething troubles, people don't like change as a rule and view strangers with suspicion.
I was bought up in the East End and someone from South London was viewed with suspicion so someone from Pakistan was always going to be held at arms length until they proved they were ok.
I remember my Dad having a very dim view about a black guy purely because he thought he had originated from South London, his colour was irrelevant to his potential trustworthiness more than he might have come from bandit country as South London was known to us North of the water.

Laws are in place, society isn't what it was so just let people rub along together and you'll be surprised how well they get on.
As for TRNC if you think companies are being racist then vote with your feet.

[iancrumpy]

Hi ETS,
As ever, your comments are well thought-out.

My truck with BLM and the like is I believe they over-exaggerate racism in the UK and seem to want to create division.

I would agree that discrimination for employment is now almost non-existent in the UK. However, figures such as those for stop-and-search (see link below) would suggest that we still do have at least some racism in the police, even allowing, say, for the fact that knife crime is far more prevalent amongst young black men in the UK. Also most would agree that the abuse received by black footballers from some on social media in the UK is totally unacceptable
Source : https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... rch/latest

But I don't think it is anywhere near the problem it was back in the 70s and those who say it is are either too young to remember or have an agenda.

I agree

My take on this is TRNC does seem a bit like England was 50 years ago so maybe things such as racism both subtle and overt follow suit.

I don't feel the situation here is quite as bad as the UK in the 70s ... firstly because most of the young Africans here behave very well, but also because higher education here is a major source of revenue ... and TCs realise that those universities would not exist if it weren't for the African students. Indeed similar comments were made by Reyntj and ljarvo earlier in the thread.

As for TRNC, if you think companies are being racist then vote with your feet.

It would seem that the original poster, stereotomy, is doing just that.

[Hedge-fund]

My take on this is TRNC does seem a bit like England was 50 years ago so maybe things such as racism both subtle and overt follow suit.

My truck with BLM and the like is I believe they over-exaggerate racism in the UK and seem to want to create division.

That isn't to say there isn't racism in the UK, because there will always be bigots and sadly there is no way you will ever eliminate that.
But I don't think it is anywhere near the problem it was back in the 70s and those who say it is are either too young to remember or have an agenda.

The fact is in the UK, unlike here, if you was to advertise your house for rent and say no African's you will have broken the law. If you are proved to have discriminated against anyone based on colour, race, sexuality etc, you have broken the law.
I think in day to day life people don't tolerate racism disguised as banter as they did back in the 70s so peer pressure comes heavily into play. Those who might have remained quiet will now speak up.
The UK is not a comfortable place anymore for people to be openly racist.

The whole nonsense that only white people can be racists isn't true.
I generally lived in multi cultural areas, the school I went in the 70s was 50% BAME even back then. You would see Black People and Asian people abuse each other. West Indians and Africans abuse each other and even within the West Indian community you have big island small island rivalry.

The fact is Britain changed from being a very white Island in the 40s to a more and more multi cultural island from the 50s onwards. There were bound to be teething troubles, people don't like change as a rule and view strangers with suspicion.
I was bought up in the East End and someone from South London was viewed with suspicion so someone from Pakistan was always going to be held at arms length until they proved they were ok.
I remember my Dad having a very dim view about a black guy purely because he thought he had originated from South London, his colour was irrelevant to his potential trustworthiness more than he might have come from bandit country as South London was known to us North of the water.

Laws are in place, society isn't what it was so just let people rub along together and you'll be surprised how well they get on.
As for TRNC if you think companies are being racist then vote with your feet.

Disgraceful racism.

South London is God's own country.

[Groucho]

The irony of being racist towards a nationality based on their having darker skin than yours and then pursuing a tan at the beach is not lost on me...

[Reyntj]

One thing I have become aware of is that Congo and Nigerian language is extremely loud!!!!! Just when they are talking naturally it sounds like they are having a fight! I think many students get misunderstood as being aggressive as when people here them speak to each other it sounds like a brawl is about to break out! When you get to know them it's anything but. So they can be misconstrued as rowdy when it's them just them having a normal conversation.

[benjaminbutton]

As a Brit I've been known to say that about the locals Reyntj, especially when they are on the phone!!

[iancrumpy]

One thing I have become aware of is that Congo and Nigerian language is extremely loud! So they can be misconstrued as rowdy when it's them just them having a normal conversation.

I kind of agree more with BenjaminButton - When I'm here on a beach or wherever I always seem to hear the loud voices of "London Cypriots" (ie. TCs living in or returned from the UK) with their unmistakable mixture of English and Turkish ... such as "Ayşe, good girl ol!". I'd better not make too much of this though, because the description of loud London Cypriots could be applied to most of my wife's extended family!

[benjaminbutton]

Ooooops, I should stay shtum if I were you. Don't go to Silver Rocks for Sunday Lunch - you'll need ear plugs. You also need to lurv screaming children!

[EnjoyingTheSun]

However, figures such as those for stop-and-search (see link below) would suggest that we still do have at least some racism in the police, even allowing, say, for the fact that knife crime is far more prevalent amongst young black men in the UK.

Stop and search is an extremely emotive subject with the police stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I'm not a fan of the police but if we totally neuter them then we are heading for big trouble. Maybe it is a choice of choosing which bullies you want to control the streets, knife gangs or the police?
Yes the statistics prove that black people are disproportionately stopped and searched per percentage of the population but in the boroughs where most of these searches are being carried out are the figures proportionate to the amount of knife crime by black people? Let's remember the biggest killer of black people in the UK is black people, the police barely register as a rounding error.

In America in 2019 there were 370 white people 235 black and 158 hispanic killed by the police, When you think that black people make up 15% of the population the figures seem horrendous but if you look at violent crime/interactions with the police then they look totally different. It would be like saying refereees in the NBA are biased because they give 80% of the fouls against black players.

Another criticism of stop and search is it isn't effective and has a 70-80% failure rate.
There are a couple of ways to look at this.
How does that rank with the success rate of searching for drugs and explosives at airports? I would imagine the success rate there is tiny but no one would suggest doing without the searches as they are preventative.
Another is to spin the 80% failure rate around. The police stop and search people based on an educated hunch and are successful 2 out of 10 times. If your house was burgled and the police said they were going to make house to house enquiries and within knocking on 10 doors they had the 2 culprits then you would think they were Poirot.
It isn't a perfect system but we have too much knife crime and we need to get knives out of the equation, if nothing else to stop black kids getting murdered, so what do we do?
Let's remember that with everyone filming everything on mobile phones these days the police can't act in the bullying way they might have acted in the past.
As for the outcry against stop and search how much of it is led by politicians and activists with an agenda and by criminals who want a clear run. Don't forget the mafia in America were keen on playing the anti-Italian card against the police to allow them to exploit people including their own Italian-American's

Also most would agree that the abuse received by black footballers from some on social media in the UK is totally unacceptable
Source : https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... rch/latest

The abuse Marcus Rashford for one is disgusting but we will never eliminate bigotry completely and the anonymous internet is an ideal place to be a racist. But what we don't have now is ten thousand supporters in a crowd doing monkey chants against a black player. The reason for this is zero to do with any FA initiatives such as Kick it Out. The problem was pretty much dead before they even got their shoes on, when it was at it's peak the FA said the problem wasn't worth bothering with and the TV companies used to mute the monkey chants.
Black players being very good footballers pretty much killed it. What knuckle head would do a racist chant against an opposition player and risk alienating 3 or 4 of your own best players,

[iancrumpy]

Again, all your points are well thought-out and valid

I'm not a fan of the police but if we totally neuter them then we are heading for big trouble. Maybe it is a choice of choosing which bullies you want to control the streets, knife gangs or the police? Yes the statistics prove that black people are disproportionately stopped and searched per percentage of the population but in the boroughs where most of these searches are being carried out are the figures proportionate to the amount of knife crime by black people? ... It isn't a perfect system but we have too much knife crime and we need to get knives out of the equation, if nothing else to stop black kids getting murdered.

Excellent points. I fully appreciate the need for more stop-and-search checks in boroughs with high rates of knife crime, but that still can't explain away the fact that black people are 9 times more likely to be searched than white people.

Black players being very good footballers pretty much killed racist chants. What knuckle head would do a racist chant against an opposition player and risk alienating 3 or 4 of your own best players.

Quite

[Soner]

As a Brit I've been known to say that about the locals Reyntj, especially when they are on the phone!!

It stems from the old days when you had to "shout" on the phone on long distant calls for relatives in UK to hear you.
It has stuck with us.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Excellent points. I fully appreciate the need for more stop-and-search checks in boroughs with high rates of knife crime, but that still can't explain away the fact that black people are 9 times more likely to be searched than white people.

I’m not totally convinced that the 9 times isn’t a misreading or a clever bit of spin with data for political reasons. As in 80% of all fouls in the NBA are given against black players but black people only make up 15% of the US population? Both statements are true but there is a vital piece of data missing which changes the whole perspective.

I think the data needs to be for a specific area and the ethnicity of that area needs to be reflected. Black people make up something like 3% of the U.K. population but not in a linear fashion. I’d imagine the number is tiny in say Northumbria but in areas of London maybe 30% plus.
Then it’s the percentage within the number of actual knife crimes. EG in an area which is say 20% black but 80% of the knife crimes are found to be committed by young black men then as unpopular and morally dodgy as racial profiling is, what is the point with the limited resources of stopping and searching a 70 year old woman?
I know it ticks a PC box but that’s pretty much all it does.
It is a moral minefield but let’s not forget when we are talking high multiples of most likely re young black men an extremely high multiple that young black men have over young white men is that they will be murdered.
Imo any movement that champions black lives matter but ignores the amount of young black men being murdered must have another agenda.
We have seen the shooting of Sasha Johnson recently where everybody held their breath until the colour of the shooter was discovered. I have no doubt if he was white that BLM would have capitalised on it. After all many attempted to capitalise on it when the facts were still unclear.

[Walesforever]

I think you will find the title of the message suggests differently

I personally wouldn't have used the word "racism" in the subject of the thread, but stereotomy deserves praise in that (s)he felt it needed debate ... hence the question mark. And where better for such a discussion than this forum.

Others contributed in a very civil way - In particular, Terry2366 and ETS made valid comments by suggesting the said beach-goers may have been rude in the past. Solic200 also made a valid point that unaccompanied males are often denied admission to such places, and furthermore there wouldn't even have been such a thread if the beach-goers had been white. Others such as Thornaby made very positive comments about the African students living amongst us. Keithcaley raised the matter that admission to any TRNC beach can not in fact be denied to anyone. To maybe add an even more convivial tone to the thread, Soner made the comment that some restaurants etc here have some quirky admission/dress rules. In general, the matter was all being discussed in a very civil and mature manner until message 12, when Walesforever wrote "I’m fed up of this racism card bullshit ... go get a life and stick your facist (sic) BLM rubbish elsewhere".

Haha oh the irony

[jofra]

"...a misreading or a clever bit of spin with data for political reasons. As in 80% of all fouls in the NBA are given against black players but black people only make up 15% of the US population? Both statements are true but there is a vital piece of data missing which changes the whole perspective."
-mismatching data i.e. different criteria -
1. 80% of all fouls in the NBA
2. 15% of the US population
Correct (and pertinent) data requires percentage of black people playing in NBA....

[EnjoyingTheSun]

"...a misreading or a clever bit of spin with data for political reasons. As in 80% of all fouls in the NBA are given against black players but black people only make up 15% of the US population? Both statements are true but there is a vital piece of data missing which changes the whole perspective."
-mismatching data i.e. different criteria -
1. 80% of all fouls in the NBA
2. 15% of the US population
Correct (and pertinent) data requires percentage of black people playing in NBA....

Exactly, no matter how much you might want it to, it doesn’t show NBA referees are racist nor that black players are dirtier players
And likewise you can’t simply say such and such a percentage is in prison compared with their % of the population without looking at what percentage of crime they are committing.
That’s not to say you can’t ask why a particular % of the population are committing crimes and does it reflect a lack of legitimate opportunities but that is a different if connected point.

[iancrumpy]

As in 80% of all fouls in the NBA are given against black players but black people only make up 15% of the US population? Both statements are true but there is a vital piece of data missing which changes the whole perspective.

Nice analogy

I’m not totally convinced that the 9 times isn’t a misreading or a clever bit of spin with data for political reasons.

But ETS, it's a recent government report, with figures supplied by police forces across the UK.

EG in an area which is say 20% black but 80% of the knife crimes are found to be committed by young black men then as unpopular and morally dodgy as racial profiling is, what is the point with the limited resources of stopping and searching a 70 year old woman?

Your estimate of 80% for certain boroughs might be a little on the high side, as in 2019 it was 51% for the whole of London (see link), but it can't be far out. In such boroughs though the probability of black youths being searched is likely to be substantially higher than 9 times the probability for white youths ... to compensate for lower probabilities in other parts of the country. Try then to imagine being a law-abiding black student being educated in such a borough.

https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets ... tober-2019

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Your estimate of 80% for certain boroughs might be a little on the high side, as in 2019 it was 51% for the whole of London (see link), but it can't be far out. In such boroughs though the probability of black youths being searched is likely to be substantially higher than 9 times the probability for white youths ... to compensate for lower probabilities in other parts of the country. Try then to imagine being a law-abiding black student being educated in such a borough.

https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets ... tober-2019

The 80% figure was pulled out of the air as an illustration but let’s bear in mind those figures supplied are for London as a whole. I would imagine the figures for knife crime vary considerably from borough to borough. I don’t doubt the figures for say Richmond are a fraction of the figures for say Peckham.

Based on the 2011 census there are roughly 8 million people in London

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

Very Roughly;
5 million are white (63%)
Half a million are mixed race (6%) which doesn’t show in the Met Police figures supplied.
One and a half million are Asian (19%)
One million are Black (12%)

So going on the Met figures supplied, which are over quite a small time scale, 12% of the population of London are committing 51% of the knife crime.

Black people are also more likely to be a victim of knife crime (20%) The black victim statistic seems very low to me but we do have a large number (19%) unknown/unrecorded so maybe a fair few are lost in there?
Whereas the white majority (63%) are committing 27% of knife crime.

Going on those figures it wouldn’t be particularly proactive policing to simply say 12% of the London population are black so we should only stop and search 12 black men in 100. Similarity we will do a week of random stop and searching in Peckham so we have to do a week in Richmond.
Surely any stop and searching has to reflect the crime figures?
I would doubt a 70 year old black man would be stopped more often than an 18 year old white boy. That would be racist, no question.

I am also aware that in Brixton in the 70s and early 80s the policing was heavy handed and racist to say the least.
But I do think we have moved on.
I’d like to think the police have taken on board the justified criticism from the past and if they haven’t technology certainly has moved on. With everyone walking around videoing everything on their phones the police can’t pull half the stuff they could back then.

The only way forward is for the black community to feel the police force is as much theirs as everyone else’s and is there to serve them and everyone else.
Given the history this is going to take time.
This isn’t helped by the rhetoric of BLM and certain others. Diane Abbott’s comments, which I don’t believe she has withdrawn about the Sasha Johnson shooting, don’t do anything other than pour petrol on a powder keg. Had Johnson’s shooter been white we could have had a very dicey situation develop. But as he was black her and others seem to just go silent and wait for another opportunity to stir it up.