Have you watched the Brexit Movie ?

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
I am not saying that politicians are hopeless. I am making the point; as we are all aware, politics is full of failures, disappointments and promises. However the fact is that we get ( Politicians)what we vote for and democracy dictates their success or failure. When politicians and persons of influence such as our own party leaders, the Governor of the Bank of England, international leaders start singing from the same Hymn sheet I do think that there is an encouraging and unusual level of credence in what they sing.

[Groucho]

Good evening all,
Given the reluctance of many to take senior economic and political authors recommendations on the IN vote.

Martin Lewis... respected consumer champion.

"on balance of probability it is more likely we'll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave"

Respected yes but infallible? No! You will note that he only uses the phrase 'balance of probability' which means he has doubts too... otherwise he would have made an unequivocal statement of certainty....

For each worthy you drag into your argument I'm sure I can find one of similar stature with the alternate view.... So we must go with our gut feeling of whether in balance we feel the EU is a force for the good of the UK or not - and not be persuaded by fear spread by the frantic and at times laughable Project Fear's increasing claims of sure fire fiscal and physical doom...

There may be challenges ahead following an out vote but my feeling is, and you can quote me on this, facing those challenges and overcoming the obstacles will only serve to make the UK a better place to live, work and retire... away from the over-bearing meddlesome EU super-state that threatens to envelop and strangle our values and culture...

[erol]

£350m for free trade...it's like saying here you can have this kettle free of charge but you need to pay me £350m for handing it over.

No it is not. Free movement within the EU does not mean you must therefore have the right to fly anywhere within the EU at no cost. It means you have the right to move freely within the EU without restriction on you. You are just perverting the meaning of the word 'free' in terms like 'free trade' to suit your agenda, to create a 'soundbite' but there is in my view no substance to the claim what so ever. I also suspect you know this but I could be wrong.

[elizabeth]

I am not a financial expert, high flying business executive or anything like that, perhaps that's why all the scaremongering regarding trade deals, austerity measures,house prices and the like leave me cold.
The U.K has survived through most of this before, there has been high unemployment, rocketing inflation, (remember mortgage interest rates at 16%), industries have been destroyed and thousands of jobs lost, and this was all while in th EU !
In my opinion, for what it's worth, if we have to ride the storm for a few years were we to leave the EU it would be a price worth paying. My wish is for the UK to regain it's identity, to be governed by people who we elected, and who we can vote out if they don't perform, for our Courts and Judges to have the authority over our legal system. For us to decide how many immigrants we can afford to take in, and how and when they are entitled to State benefits.
I am not a little Englander nor do I want us to rule the Empire again, but I do not want some unelected bunch of failed politicians deciding the way of life for myself, my children or my grandchildren, that is not what was on offer to us when we voted to join the Common Market.

[Geoff1131]

elizabeth, great post and I think most people would agree with you. This constant 'Fear campaign ' is getting beyond a joke. One thing that has occurred to me is that the politicians who want us to remain in the club, maybe are running a little scared because if the uk votes out on the 23rd then they will have to start doing what the uk electorate voted them into power to do, ie govern the country. At the moment they get an easy ride, they let the eu tell them what rules they must abide by and if it causes problems, ' it's not our fault, it was the eu who made us do this, ' If we exit the club then they will have to work hard to make the trade deals that the uk will need, they will have to look at the security of the uk and make laws to protect it. They will have to implement rules on the fishing industry to protect the uk territorial waters from fishing trawlers from Spain and other eu countries plundering the fish stocks. They will have to make arrangements with the uk farmers to ensure they have an equal chance to compete with other countries in or out of the eu. If the vote on referendum day is to stay in the eu then I think it might be time to dismantle the house of parliament and just accept that we are governed by Europe.

[WotNoDeeds]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rders.html

[elizabeth]

So that is why the EU have said that Britain must build 222,000 houses to accommodate them,.

[turtle]

£350m for free trade...it's like saying here you can have this kettle free of charge but you need to pay me £350m for handing it over.

No it is not. Free movement within the EU does not mean you must therefore have the right to fly anywhere within the EU at no cost. It means you have the right to move freely within the EU without restriction on you. You are just perverting the meaning of the word 'free' in terms like 'free trade' to suit your agenda, to create a 'soundbite' but there is in my view no substance to the claim what so ever. I also suspect you know this but I could be wrong.

OK Erol, I'm playing with the word "Free" But you can't argue it cost the British public a huge amount of money to be "IN" the EU.

Great Post Elizabeth and sums up the mood among large sections of the British voting public.

[erol]

OK Erol, I'm playing with the word "Free" But you can't argue it cost the British public a huge amount of money to be "IN" the UK.

It does indeed, vastly more than it cost the UK to be in the EU

[turtle]

migration the second highest on record... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36382199

[kerry 6138]

https://youtu.be/hgrB2yAPPlQ
Pro EU Matthew Handcock interview on BBC Daily Politics

[turtle]

[turtle]

[turtle]

[waz-24-7]

I am not a financial expert, high flying business executive or anything like that, perhaps that's why all the scaremongering regarding trade deals, austerity measures,house prices and the like leave me cold.
The U.K has survived through most of this before, there has been high unemployment, rocketing inflation, (remember mortgage interest rates at 16%), industries have been destroyed and thousands of jobs lost, and this was all while in th EU !
In my opinion, for what it's worth, if we have to ride the storm for a few years were we to leave the EU it would be a price worth paying. My wish is for the UK to regain it's identity, to be governed by people who we elected, and who we can vote out if they don't perform, for our Courts and Judges to have the authority over our legal system. For us to decide how many immigrants we can afford to take in, and how and when they are entitled to State benefits.
I am not a little Englander nor do I want us to rule the Empire again, but I do not want some unelected bunch of failed politicians deciding the way of life for myself, my children or my grandchildren, that is not what was on offer to us when we voted to join the Common Market.

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. I am afraid that the Uk has not survived through this before as you indicate. What you have clearly noted and experienced is the volatility and vulnerability of a Countries economy and how that has consequences. The World and how it works has changed very rapidly in the last 10 years particularly. The changes and shifting of power and influence on planet Earth will not stop or even slow.
This is not a "weather the storm" scenario. That would apply to say the last 2008 recession which the Uk weathered. The BREXIT is about a permanent and decisive move to stand alone separated from the massive EU market place., Not a storm but marooned on our island is a more apt analogy. Regarding your proper concern for your children.
Consider please how they will be disadvantaged by the decline in prosperity, competitiveness and opportunities that an exit from the European FREE zone will have. These youngsters deserve to have advantage of working and competing within world markets and to find their way to prosperity. A Brexit will be a hindrance to that opportunity. I think also youngsters are less nationalistic, are happy to mix and be cosmopolitan and to seek their own success.

[waz-24-7]

Good evening all,
Given the reluctance of many to take senior economic and political authors recommendations on the IN vote.

Martin Lewis... respected consumer champion.

"on balance of probability it is more likely we'll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave"

Respected yes but infallible? No! You will note that he only uses the phrase 'balance of probability' which means he has doubts too... otherwise he would have made an unequivocal statement of certainty....

For each worthy you drag into your argument I'm sure I can find one of similar stature with the alternate view.... So we must go with our gut feeling of whether in balance we feel the EU is a force for the good of the UK or not - and not be persuaded by fear spread by the frantic and at times laughable Project Fear's increasing claims of sure fire fiscal and physical doom...

There may be challenges ahead following an out vote but my feeling is, and you can quote me on this, facing those challenges and overcoming the obstacles will only serve to make the UK a better place to live, work and retire... away from the over-bearing meddlesome EU super-state that threatens to envelop and strangle our values and culture...

Groucho
Of course you can question Mr Lewis's comment. I am not indeed a massive fan. I do think that a lot of people watch and listen to his shows because of his grass roots approach to family and man on the street finances.
I welcome your stiff upper lip and we will face the challenges and prevail. Very noble. However I assume you have done your time in the Uk economy and are now comfortable. Think of our youngsters who will be (in event of OUT) subjected to the clear disadvantages associated with a decline in the UK economy as they strive to attain prosperity.

[waz-24-7]

elizabeth, great post and I think most people would agree with you. This constant 'Fear campaign ' is getting beyond a joke. One thing that has occurred to me is that the politicians who want us to remain in the club, maybe are running a little scared because if the uk votes out on the 23rd then they will have to start doing what the uk electorate voted them into power to do, ie govern the country. At the moment they get an easy ride, they let the eu tell them what rules they must abide by and if it causes problems, ' it's not our fault, it was the eu who made us do this, ' If we exit the club then they will have to work hard to make the trade deals that the uk will need, they will have to look at the security of the uk and make laws to protect it. They will have to implement rules on the fishing industry to protect the uk territorial waters from fishing trawlers from Spain and other eu countries plundering the fish stocks. They will have to make arrangements with the uk farmers to ensure they have an equal chance to compete with other countries in or out of the eu. If the vote on referendum day is to stay in the eu then I think it might be time to dismantle the house of parliament and just accept that we are governed by Europe.

Geoff1131,
Quite plausible as a part solution. However, What is your solution to the decline in inward investment into the UK due to the loss of "gateway to Europe" ticket that we currently hold. My own estimate is that currently some 3 million workers directly and or indirectly work within the uk economy, for businesses that directly take advantage from the FREE trade and gateway status.
The UK must compete for inward investment with each and every other Union Member. And we want out!! What advantage can that possibly create,

[elizabeth]

I am not a financial expert, high flying business executive or anything like that, perhaps that's why all the scaremongering regarding trade deals, austerity measures,house prices and the like leave me cold.
The U.K has survived through most of this before, there has been high unemployment, rocketing inflation, (remember mortgage interest rates at 16%), industries have been destroyed and thousands of jobs lost, and this was all while in th EU !
In my opinion, for what it's worth, if we have to ride the storm for a few years were we to leave the EU it would be a price worth paying. My wish is for the UK to regain it's identity, to be governed by people who we elected, and who we can vote out if they don't perform, for our Courts and Judges to have the authority over our legal system. For us to decide how many immigrants we can afford to take in, and how and when they are entitled to State benefits.
I am not a little Englander nor do I want us to rule the Empire again, but I do not want some unelected bunch of failed politicians deciding the way of life for myself, my children or my grandchildren, that is not what was on offer to us when we voted to join the Common Market.

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. I am afraid that the Uk has not survived through this before as you indicate. What you have clearly noted and experienced is the volatility and vulnerability of a Countries economy and how that has consequences. The World and how it works has changed very rapidly in the last 10 years particularly. The changes and shifting of power and influence on planet Earth will not stop or even slow.
This is not a "weather the storm" scenario. That would apply to say the last 2008 recession which the Uk weathered. The BREXIT is about a permanent and decisive move to stand alone separated from the massive EU market place., Not a storm but marooned on our island is a more apt analogy. Regarding your proper concern for your children.
Consider please how they will be disadvantaged by the decline in prosperity, competitiveness and opportunities that an exit from the European FREE zone will have. These youngsters deserve to have advantage of working and competing within world markets and to find their way to prosperity. A Brexit will be a hindrance to that opportunity. I think also youngsters are less nationalistic, are happy to mix and be cosmopolitan and to seek their own success.

As I said before I believe the UK has survived many of the issues that the Remain camp keep trotting out, I know that my family have seen high interest rates, falling house prices, unemployment,short time working and much more, but we did, by our own efforts and determination, come out the other end, if not unscathed but certainly unbeaten.
I agree that the world is changing, not always for the better, but I can,t help thinking of the many thousands of young men who gave their lives to prevent Europe being oppressed by a foreign regime who wanted complete control over other countries and their individual identities. If we don't know where we come from how can we know where we're going.

[niceone]

I know which way I'm voting, everyone knows which way they are voting

It does not matter what anyone posts

Lets hope it works out right x

[Geoff1131]

waz, my take on ' inward investment '? is that it will continue after an exit. Do you really believe that if the uk comes out of the eu , then all contact between the rest of Europe and the uk will suddenly come to a halt? As I understand it there will be a 2 year transition period where the partition is dealt with. During this time the uk government and uk businesses will, I am sure start to make provisions to trade, not only with the euro counties who wish to trade ( and there will be many mark my words ) and counties in the rest of the world. Your pessimism about the uk's ability to grow as a country outside of the eu is to me disappointing.

I watched another program on the split last night and one of the in campaign points was that jobs would be at risk. Now I am a simple soul but even I can see that lets say, the nhs need 200 doctors per year and there are 300 doctors available to work then 100 doctors will be out of work. If 1000 doctors are allowed to enter the uk then the unemployed doctor ratio gets larger? I would rather see young people educated in the uk, trained in the uk , to do jobs in the uk to service the uk. The only way in my opinion to get full ( or as near to full as we are ever likely to get ) employment , is to control entry to the uk so that only workers who can benefit the uk are allowed to come and live and work . A bit like the Australian system. If the uk were ever in a position that workers were needed to maintain the economy, then they could open the doors again to workers from overseas, but in a controlled way where only people who would be a benefit to the uk would be admitted.

[waz-24-7]

waz, my take on ' inward investment '? is that it will continue after an exit. Do you really believe that if the uk comes out of the eu , then all contact between the rest of Europe and the uk will suddenly come to a halt? As I understand it there will be a 2 year transition period where the partition is dealt with. During this time the uk government and uk businesses will, I am sure start to make provisions to trade, not only with the euro counties who wish to trade ( and there will be many mark my words ) and counties in the rest of the world. Your pessimism about the uk's ability to grow as a country outside of the eu is to me disappointing.

I watched another program on the split last night and one of the in campaign points was that jobs would be at risk. Now I am a simple soul but even I can see that lets say, the nhs need 200 doctors per year and there are 300 doctors available to work then 100 doctors will be out of work. If 1000 doctors are allowed to enter the uk then the unemployed doctor ratio gets larger? I would rather see young people educated in the uk, trained in the uk , to do jobs in the uk to service the uk. The only way in my opinion to get full ( or as near to full as we are ever likely to get ) employment , is to control entry to the uk so that only workers who can benefit the uk are allowed to come and live and work . A bit like the Australian system. If the uk were ever in a position that workers were needed to maintain the economy, then they could open the doors again to workers from overseas, but in a controlled way where only people who would be a benefit to the uk would be admitted.

Geof1131 Thank you for your comments. Upon Investment. Each and every country within the Union competes for inward investment. Government's offer incentives and the UK has been very successful since joining the free market economy within the EU, Like consumers investors have choice,
These choices are based on competitive or commercial advantage. To leave the FREE market arena will definitely make it more difficult for the UK to win critical investment. Try, as I am certain we will and as you predict, the disadvantages will mean depletion, loss and consequential recession.

Employment, The Doctor scenario is not representative being a skilled profession. It is the unskilled labour market that the UK has more difficulty in fulfilling. Working on the land, unskilled factory work, Employers find these important jobs difficulty to fill. Many people question immigration and its theft of UK jobs. If your are UK resident and want to solve this... Wash your own car!! OR should we allow skilled car washers entry?

[waz-24-7]

I am not a financial expert, high flying business executive or anything like that, perhaps that's why all the scaremongering regarding trade deals, austerity measures,house prices and the like leave me cold.
The U.K has survived through most of this before, there has been high unemployment, rocketing inflation, (remember mortgage interest rates at 16%), industries have been destroyed and thousands of jobs lost, and this was all while in th EU !
In my opinion, for what it's worth, if we have to ride the storm for a few years were we to leave the EU it would be a price worth paying. My wish is for the UK to regain it's identity, to be governed by people who we elected, and who we can vote out if they don't perform, for our Courts and Judges to have the authority over our legal system. For us to decide how many immigrants we can afford to take in, and how and when they are entitled to State benefits.
I am not a little Englander nor do I want us to rule the Empire again, but I do not want some unelected bunch of failed politicians deciding the way of life for myself, my children or my grandchildren, that is not what was on offer to us when we voted to join the Common Market.

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. I am afraid that the Uk has not survived through this before as you indicate. What you have clearly noted and experienced is the volatility and vulnerability of a Countries economy and how that has consequences. The World and how it works has changed very rapidly in the last 10 years particularly. The changes and shifting of power and influence on planet Earth will not stop or even slow.
This is not a "weather the storm" scenario. That would apply to say the last 2008 recession which the Uk weathered. The BREXIT is about a permanent and decisive move to stand alone separated from the massive EU market place., Not a storm but marooned on our island is a more apt analogy. Regarding your proper concern for your children.
Consider please how they will be disadvantaged by the decline in prosperity, competitiveness and opportunities that an exit from the European FREE zone will have. These youngsters deserve to have advantage of working and competing within world markets and to find their way to prosperity. A Brexit will be a hindrance to that opportunity. I think also youngsters are less nationalistic, are happy to mix and be cosmopolitan and to seek their own success.

As I said before I believe the UK has survived many of the issues that the Remain camp keep trotting out, I know that my family have seen high interest rates, falling house prices, unemployment,short time working and much more, but we did, by our own efforts and determination, come out the other end, if not unscathed but certainly unbeaten.
I agree that the world is changing, not always for the better, but I can,t help thinking of the many thousands of young men who gave their lives to prevent Europe being oppressed by a foreign regime who wanted complete control over other countries and their individual identities. If we don't know where we come from how can we know where we're going.

Elizabeth,
Certainly the UK has been through much and has come out the other side. However most of these have been brought upon us by world events such as the financial collapse in 2008 and the recession brought on by the same, This referendum is a choice, To remain in prosperity OR run the very real risk of recession again. I do think your view is rather outdated and looking backwards is not of much help to UK youngsters looking to attain prosperity and success. Why should we put their livelihoods at risk based on old time "once we were great" " we've done it before" slogans. The economy is the most important issue for those setting out like my own young family.

[turtle]

Waz
What would your recommendation be if the "euro" started to collapse.!

[Groucho]

Waz
What would your recommendation be if the "euro" started to collapse.!

The Euro has started to collapse and they are merely sticking plaster over the gaping wound.... giving more funds to the likes of Greece with others to follow so that they can quite falsely paint a picture of financial stability where in fact none exists.... They can not afford what they've been lent already and it's all going to have to be written-off and even though we are not in the Euro mechanism we will be expected to chip in (they have intimated as much before now)- well good luck with that one.. If that happens I can foresee a wide-scale revolt in the UK...

Waz

Expressing a wish to wrestle control back from the EU leviathan is not 'old-fashioned' and 'outdated' it's just common sense.. please stop trying to belittle members who hold an alternative view with your inferences of knowing best and the rest not understanding... we know there are risks of short-term difficulties that must be overcome - but the risks are being totally over-played and worth taking in our view... The risks are not the picture of a giant leap backwards and economic, social and physical decline being touted by the Stay campaign....

All current EU legislation has been passed into UK law where it will remain following exit... yet you try to insinuate that we will have to hand-back all such legislation as if it belongs to the EU and not to its members.... leaving us with no ongoing legal framework... well that's simply untrue.

That's like saying when you leave school you've got to hand back all the learning!

They and you are over-playing the hand and all this nonsense undermines the strength your argument... You seem to have swallowed the doom and gloom pill the Project Fear campaign have given you... To be frank I no longer believe a word the Stay side are saying so far has their logic strayed from a believable likely set of outcomes ... I used to be inclined to want to remain in the EU but it's made my mind up otherwise... go figure.

[waz-24-7]

Waz
What would your recommendation be if the "euro" started to collapse.!

Turtle
Currency markets are extremely volatile. Certainly currencies rise and fall in cycles. The Euro will not collapse . It will rise and fall just like the Turkish Lira and the GBP has over last 5 years. However the UK is not in the Euro and this is an advantage to the UK in my view.
I do not think currency fluctuations are critical after the vote apart from the likely loss of confidence in GBP. This is a significant risk, To regain investor confidence in GBP is a long and uphill struggle and the OUT campaign present no plausible strategy apart from "hard work", "we have done it before", we are "big and strong enough".

[waz-24-7]

Waz
What would your recommendation be if the "euro" started to collapse.!

The Euro has started to collapse and they are merely sticking plaster over the gaping wound.... giving more funds to the likes of Greece with others to follow so that they can quite falsely paint a picture of financial stability where in fact none exists.... They can not afford what they've been lent already and it's all going to have to be written-off and even though we are not in the Euro mechanism we will be expected to chip in (they have intimated as much before now)- well good luck with that one.. If that happens I can foresee a wide-scale revolt in the UK...

Waz

Expressing a wish to wrestle control back from the EU leviathan is not 'old-fashioned' and 'outdated' it's just common sense.. please stop trying to belittle members who hold an alternative view with your inferences of knowing best and the rest not understanding... we know there are risks of short-term difficulties that must be overcome - but the risks are being totally over-played and worth taking in our view... The risks are not the picture of a giant leap backwards and economic, social and physical decline being touted by the Stay campaign....

All current EU legislation has been passed into UK law where it will remain following exit... yet you try to insinuate that we will have to hand-back all such legislation as if it belongs to the EU and not to its members.... leaving us with no ongoing legal framework... well that's simply untrue.

That's like saying when you leave school you've got to hand back all the learning!

They and you are over-playing the hand and all this nonsense undermines the strength your argument... You seem to have swallowed the doom and gloom pill the Project Fear campaign have given you... To be frank I no longer believe a word the Stay side are saying so far has their logic strayed from a believable likely set of outcomes ... I used to be inclined to want to remain in the EU but it's made my mind up otherwise... go figure.

[turtle]

So the EURO currency will not collapse,.... how do you quantify this statement ?

[turtle]

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficia ... 178817657/

[Groucho]

Waz
What would your recommendation be if the "euro" started to collapse.!

Turtle
Currency markets are extremely volatile. Certainly currencies rise and fall in cycles. The Euro will not collapse . It will rise and fall just like the Turkish Lira and the GBP has over last 5 years. However the UK is not in the Euro and this is an advantage to the UK in my view.
I do not think currency fluctuations are critical after the vote apart from the likely loss of confidence in GBP. This is a significant risk, To regain investor confidence in GBP is a long and uphill struggle and the OUT campaign present no plausible strategy apart from "hard work", "we have done it before", we are "big and strong enough".

Actually a strong pound can damage exports and harm growth - just as a weak Turkish Lira makes Turkish goods seem competitive....

The Euro has collapsed they just refuse to admit it... There is more grief to come from that unholy partnership...

They should never have allowed the likes of Greece to join monetary union having cheated by cooking the books - rather than chuck them out what did they do oh yeah. made them EU President for a term.... I don't want to be in a club that admits cheats then when it finds out they are cheats it does nothing to rectify the situation....

Just to keep the sporting analogies alive - it's like they find out Greece has been doping so what do they do? Well of course - they award them the Gold Medal

[elizabeth]

Elizabeth,
Certainly the UK has been through much and has come out the other side. However most of these have been brought upon us by world events such as the financial collapse in 2008 and the recession brought on by the same, This referendum is a choice, To remain in prosperity OR run the very real risk of recession again. I do think your view is rather outdated and looking backwards is not of much help to UK youngsters looking to attain prosperity and success. Why should we put their livelihoods at risk based on old time "once we were great" " we've done it before" slogans. The economy is the most important issue for those setting out like my own young family.
waz-24-7

Just for the record Waz, the things I mentioned were in the 80s not 2008 following the financial meltdown.
You may think my view is outdated but have you considered that perhaps some of us more senior people have a fair bit of experience in world affairs.We also had young families at one time and wanted what was best for them as you do, we are aware that the future of todays' youth is important, but the world doesn't end once you are outside Europe, there are many prosperous countries outside that club which offer great opportunities if you have the right skills, you just need to keep an open mind.
Of course the economy is important, but it's not the be all and end all, Self government, Immigration, just two very important concerns for many people. You are of course entitled to your opinion, as I am, and I don't expect either of us will change, but at least let us respect each others opinion and don't patronise those who think differently.

[WotNoDeeds]

Vote OUT to get your country back.

[waz-24-7]

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. Of course the individual and ones individual opinions are respected.
There is indeed a large following for self governance, sovereignty and control of immigration. I do believe that in the modern world these matters are increasingly less important and difficult to support and implement. Take the British commonwealth for example. Once a world leading global domain. Now a mere shadow due the changing face of the world. Modern global issues ,in particular migration and immigration of peoples. Terrorism, security, religious differences, famine and drought. These are relatively new issues that challenge the planet and its survival as well as mankind in general. These issues need to be tackled by countries working together, sharing responsibility, taking on burden and problems together for the greater good. Isolationism, fear, xenophobia, and a closed door mentality can only lead to failure.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho
You are correct a strong GBP can hinder UK exports. However the flexibility within currencies have kept the UK firmly in the driving seat within the Union economic region. The UK has done well to remain outside the single currency. This is a distinct advantage given we still have full access to the FREE market. Greece has indeed taken the Union for a ride. They are paying the price now and their economy will eventually recover and the debt will be repaid. They are now paying taxes and revenue. The Union has driven this recovery NOT Greece itself. That is a good outcome.This should not be a reason for the UK to throw in the towel. I would ask OUT inclined voters to think about the advantages that the UK derives from the Union as opposed to finding fault as if the UK has no faults or issues of its own and once OUT utopia will arrive unhindered.

[waz-24-7]

So the EURO currency will not collapse,.... how do you quantify this statement ?

Turtle,
The Euro is the trading currency within the 27 member states. This alone gives it strength and resilience in the world currencies. The Union economy since 2008 has had some major upheaval as the rest of the world has too. It is the strength in numbers and members that has supported the currency. If any single currency had undergone that level of devaluation it would have been sunk. Take the Greek Crisis. the Euro and the Union saved this economy. Many will say we should have left them to sink. What if it had been the UK ? I ask. Or are we above financial ruin and strife. I think not.

[turtle]

Waz
Do you actually believe the bilge you write ?.... Greece will repay its debt ?... Are you for real
Greece has zero chance of repaying its interest let alone its debt, i think what you meant to say is we will write off the debts of Greece and "pretend" that Greece is now debt free ?

[turtle]

Take the German economy out of the euro and it is in big trouble.
The world over knows the euro was/is a major problem to world finance and is a major hindrance to currency all over the world and without the German economy the euro is monopoly money.

[Groucho]

Take the German economy out of the euro and it is in big trouble.
The world over knows the euro was/is a major problem to world finance and is a major hindrance to currency all over the world and without the German economy the euro is monopoly money.

The problem with the Euro is that the criteria for membership was/is not strict enough and the adherence to conditions of membership not verified rigorously enough - with the connivance of a major accounting firm Greece et al have been allowed a membership that they simply could not afford - therein lies the reality - they can't afford the membership. they can't afford the loans they've been given because they couldn't afford the membership and they won't be able to repay any of the loans in any meaningful way - really you couldn't make it up

"Lend me a tenner and I'll repay the fiver I owe you - Oh and while we are at it - I can't repay the one hundred pounds I borrowed before so you'd better write that off to experience - otherwise you will be down the toilet with me!"

No thanks....

The Stayers seeming faith in the recoverability of the Greek economy is woeful beyond naivety - if that's the strength of their argument for staying i.e. that the EU membership has been able to resolve the issue - I can only gasp at their faith in our gullibility.

There is no way that Greece will be able to turn that sleight of hand into a fiscal solution... it's the other nations being told they need to be making the sacrifices on behalf of Greece too...

The Euro zone is being dishonest in not admitting that it's going to try and brush the dirt under the carpet and that everyone else has got to pay for the carpet to be cleaned - and it's the tip of an iceberg (like how the analogies are stacking up yet?) because a few other damaged economies are also merely treading water before they too need help.

[WotNoDeeds]

..


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... -migratio/

[kerry 6138]

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. Of course the individual and ones individual opinions are respected.
There is indeed a large following for self governance, sovereignty and control of immigration. I do believe that in the modern world these matters are increasingly less important and difficult to support and implement. Take the British commonwealth for example. Once a world leading global domain. Now a mere shadow due the changing face of the world. Modern global issues ,in particular migration and immigration of peoples. Terrorism, security, religious differences, famine and drought. These are relatively new issues that challenge the planet and its survival as well as mankind in general. These issues need to be tackled by countries working together, sharing responsibility, taking on burden and problems together for the greater good. Isolationism, fear, xenophobia, and a closed door mentality can only lead to failure.

I was trying to take a break but feel compelled to comment I'm not a business expert has you are was 24 7 but isn't one of the reasons why the Commonwealth isn't a leading global domain anymore is because the free market you champion actually stops us being free to trade with them.
.Modern global issues migration, immigration does this include the £10 poms,Terrorism, security, religious differences are we including the Birmingham ,Manchester London IRA bombings.
Famines and droughts do you remember watching Live Aid a fantastic project started by a British news report galvanising the British and American music industry.

[waz-24-7]

Waz
Do you actually believe the bilge you write ?.... Greece will repay its debt ?... Are you for real
Greece has zero chance of repaying its interest let alone its debt, i think what you meant to say is we will write off the debts of Greece and "pretend" that Greece is now debt free ?

Turtle,
Please try and take a longer term view. Greece, we agree, abused its people and the EU. It has been bailed out and now has massive debt. The terms of the bail out are clear. The debt is to be re paid. Greece has finally been forced to tighten its belt. sort out its tax regime and get back on track and become a contributing member of the Union. This will happen and I feel the saving of Greece and its people is a worthwhile cause. Am I close to the mark to take the view that your view is Britain for the British and throw everyone else to the wolves. This type of isolationism and, yes ,Xenophobia is not concussive to a strong and prosperous UK.

[waz-24-7]

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. Of course the individual and ones individual opinions are respected.
There is indeed a large following for self governance, sovereignty and control of immigration. I do believe that in the modern world these matters are increasingly less important and difficult to support and implement. Take the British commonwealth for example. Once a world leading global domain. Now a mere shadow due the changing face of the world. Modern global issues ,in particular migration and immigration of peoples. Terrorism, security, religious differences, famine and drought. These are relatively new issues that challenge the planet and its survival as well as mankind in general. These issues need to be tackled by countries working together, sharing responsibility, taking on burden and problems together for the greater good. Isolationism, fear, xenophobia, and a closed door mentality can only lead to failure.

I was trying to take a break but feel compelled to comment I'm not a business expert has you are was 24 7 but isn't one of the reasons why the Commonwealth isn't a leading global domain anymore is because the free market you champion actually stops us being free to trade with them.
.Modern global issues migration, immigration does this include the £10 poms,Terrorism, security, religious differences are we including the Birmingham ,Manchester London IRA bombings.
Famines and droughts do you remember watching Live Aid a fantastic project started by a British news report galvanising the British and American music industry.

Kerry the decline of the commonwealth is a result of many factors. Great Britain aggressively undertook the expansion of its influence fuelled by its wealth, military power and determination. Today the World is made up of many more powerful economies that heave negotiated their independence. The UK will not return to those times. It does not have any of the necessary tools to hand. It is the likes of China and Russia that seem to be the modern day expansionists. Your historical references are likewise now old news and these examples are not repeatable or even templates for the future.
Certainly the Live aid example is relevant to the way that together. Things can be made to happen, To divorce Europe is not conducive to working together.

[kibsolar1999]

What makes me most disappointed here is that neither the IN nor OUT supporters say what they want. The plan of the brexit supporters: zero. The plan of the stay supporters: in Brussels, our government will do something for us (whatever that’s means)
Ok, out: saving a bit money, get rid of the north Korea like dictatorship and, best of it, nazi germany.. or the enlargement of the EU (forgetting totally that no country will access the EU without the will of the UK)….
I mean, do you really believe that the 10 billion saved for EU membership will be finally spend for hospitals, pot holes and grandma, who suffered from 40 years of being in the EU? Do you really believe that all the nations like USA, Switzerland, hong kong, Monaco, Luxembourg, Norway, the ones outside of EU + the EU as well, will have a nap while Britain tries to woo away their customers ? as WAZ explained to me : the anglo american capitalism is fully functional. Well then, go ahead, you will get powerful enemies..
And, are you aiming to leave the commonwhealth as well to stop immigration completely? THAT would be really an unexpected move.

Or, in supporters: doom with possible decline, wars (see above, maybe not that wrong) or a changing exchange rate to the euro.

what do you want? Can say anyone here what you want in terms of a political change? I only read nonsense, guesses, propaganda (incl rassism and discrimination.. so much about progressive human rights in the UK) and half true facts.

Even if it is “only economics”: do you want an exchange rate 2:1 to the euro and not exporting anything any more? Or a 1:1 to the euro, that many can not afford to travel abroad and pay 30+% more for everthing coming from Europe (or anywhere else) ? Do you want estate prices higher, and even more of your people can not pay their rents, but a few become even richer? Or lower, and many lose a lot of money, but the market is “socialised”.
“Elizabet” is the only one who said that she is willing to go through hard times. Why not. The nation might be happier afterwards. But this means political changes, maybe forced by economics.

Or is it that both in and out supporters actually do not want a change? It is so nice and cosy.. and it could be even cosier when we do not need to deal with all these polnish and Pakistanis, I don’t like their food anyway..
all what the brexit supporters claim for, for me seems to be so… minor. The big picture is not there. The in supporters make a bigger picture.. but it is so… uninspired… not to say boring.
Imagination: 24th of june, Brussels, Cameron meets Juncker.
Scenario 1, in won, Juncker to cameron: congratulations, David, that was a close rally. Anyway, since quite a while you are telling us not to do anything about it (as your citizens would surely vote for brexit) , but today we are working to finalise the Tobin tax and close some tax gaps + evasion. we will introduce them, even if you vote against it.
Scenario 2, out won. Juncker to Cameron: Hi david, what a pity. Well, be aware that we today we are working to finalise the Tobin tax and and close some tax gaps + evasion. might be good for you, on the other hand we also will tighten measures for transfers and deals outside Europe. Btw, you are wrong here… the brexit negotiation table is on level 3, section b, room 4598. As we believe you do not like to speak to the germans and french, we appointed some people from Greece, spain and Portugal. Hope that’s ok with you, with them you can talk about your ideas how to remain a trade partner. Ah, and before I forget.. Andalusia wants to get rid of its “water the tomatoes from illegal wells” problem, water levels are finished in a couple of years anyway.. and they offered BMW land and cheap solar power to run the premises for the mini.. well, we thought.. maybe… tomatoes from wales?... a lot of water, reasonable sunshine… and I assure you, we try to keep the pound low.. if it is going up, well, then you can activate some british couch potatoes… or put the wages down.. anyway, we can talk about that later.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
The recovery of Greece and its economy is not really a topic that should influence peoples vote. I feel that many take the view that Greece should have been left to fail. What please would have been the advantage to the UK? Greece will recover and become a contributor to the EU. That is an absolute certainty,
Greece is now focused upon growth and prosperity and I support the NEW Greece that will emerge within the decade. Lessons have been learnt.
I do not consider this issue to be an IN or OUT topic but clearly your stance is to find continued fault with the Union without offering alternatives or solutions. I still see no reasoning from you for a BREXIT apart from the alleged escape from, for example ,the Greek issue and the alleged collapsing Euro. These are NOT justifiable reasons to leave in my view

[waz-24-7]

What makes me most disappointed here is that neither the IN nor OUT supporters say what they want. The plan of the brexit supporters: zero. The plan of the stay supporters: in Brussels, our government will do something for us (whatever that’s means)
Ok, out: saving a bit money, get rid of the north Korea like dictatorship and, best of it, nazi germany.. or the enlargement of the EU (forgetting totally that no country will access the EU without the will of the UK)….
I mean, do you really believe that the 10 billion saved for EU membership will be finally spend for hospitals, pot holes and grandma, who suffered from 40 years of being in the EU? Do you really believe that all the nations like USA, Switzerland, hong kong, Monaco, Luxembourg, Norway, the ones outside of EU + the EU as well, will have a nap while Britain tries to woo away their customers ? as WAZ explained to me : the anglo american capitalism is fully functional. Well then, go ahead, you will get powerful enemies..
And, are you aiming to leave the commonwhealth as well to stop immigration completely? THAT would be really an unexpected move.

Or, in supporters: doom with possible decline, wars (see above, maybe not that wrong) or a changing exchange rate to the euro.

what do you want? Can say anyone here what you want in terms of a political change? I only read nonsense, guesses, propaganda (incl rassism and discrimination.. so much about progressive human rights in the UK) and half true facts.




Even if it is “only economics”: do you want an exchange rate 2:1 to the euro and not exporting anything any more? Or a 1:1 to the euro, that many can not afford to travel abroad and pay 30+% more for everthing coming from Europe (or anywhere else) ? Do you want estate prices higher, and even more of your people can not pay their rents, but a few become even richer? Or lower, and many lose a lot of money, but the market is “socialised”.
“Elizabet” is the only one who said that she is willing to go through hard times. Why not. The nation might be happier afterwards. But this means political changes, maybe forced by economics.

Or is it that both in and out supporters actually do not want a change? It is so nice and cosy.. and it could be even cosier when we do not need to deal with all these polnish and Pakistanis, I don’t like their food anyway..
all what the brexit supporters claim for, for me seems to be so… minor. The big picture is not there. The in supporters make a bigger picture.. but it is so… uninspired… not to say boring.
Imagination: 24th of june, Brussels, Cameron meets Juncker.
Scenario 1, in won, Juncker to cameron: congratulations, David, that was a close rally. Anyway, since quite a while you are telling us not to do anything about it (as your citizens would surely vote for brexit) , but today we are working to finalise the Tobin tax and close some tax gaps + evasion. we will introduce them, even if you vote against it.
Scenario 2, out won. Juncker to Cameron: Hi david, what a pity. Well, be aware that we today we are working to finalise the Tobin tax and and close some tax gaps + evasion. might be good for you, on the other hand we also will tighten measures for transfers and deals outside Europe. Btw, you are wrong here… the brexit negotiation table is on level 3, section b, room 4598. As we believe you do not like to speak to the germans and french, we appointed some people from Greece, spain and Portugal. Hope that’s ok with you, with them you can talk about your ideas how to remain a trade partner. Ah, and before I forget.. Andalusia wants to get rid of its “water the tomatoes from illegal wells” problem, water levels are finished in a couple of years anyway.. and they offered BMW land and cheap solar power to run the premises for the mini.. well, we thought.. maybe… tomatoes from wales?... a lot of water, reasonable sunshine… and I assure you, we try to keep the pound low.. if it is going up, well, then you can activate some british couch potatoes… or put the wages down.. anyway, we can talk about that later.

Kibsolar 1999
Thank you for your comments .
To answer your question.
The UK economy is currently relatively strong in Europe and indeed in the World. This is positive and access to the FREE trade EU market is of immense benefit allowing the UK to enjoy relative prosperity. It is foolhardy to think the UK can walk away and hinder trade with 500 million union consumers without decline and loss.
The EU is NOT a well run or administered administration and reform is needed. I support continued reform and amendment to the current.
This can only be achieved if we are at the table and contributing and influencing.
The past decade has seen some disturbing failures in the Union. Each has been overcome as has the issues of 2008 within the UK.
Short term fix, BREXIT, is not a viable option and represents no real future for the UK as an isolated stand alone country.
I hope that clarifies my own case.

[kibsolar1999]

waz, was a pleasure.
to be honest, you also repeat yourself again and again only....

what do you want, reforms in the EU? which ones? it is all so indefinite.
you forget completely that britain is known in europe as a "reform blocker".
also you do not sound like an european, it sounds more like one of camerons negotiators, trying to protect britains privileges from old times.
something like: we want free trade and nothing else.

no matter in or out, the british influence will drop, especially after the 23rd of june.
and this for good reasons. britain is not the middle of the world any more.

[erol]

what do you want? Can say anyone here what you want in terms of a political change? I only read nonsense, guesses, propaganda (incl rassism and discrimination.. so much about progressive human rights in the UK) and half true facts.

Reform of the EU I want greater transparency of EU Council meetings - publish minutes and also of groups like ECOFIN. Basically more transparency of those groups that actually pass EU law. I would also support some kind of system to sync up national elections across member states so that effectively an EU electorate had the ability to vote out the EU Council in 'one go'. That would be a good start for me.

[Groucho]

Groucho,
The recovery of Greece and its economy is not really a topic that should influence peoples vote. I feel that many take the view that Greece should have been left to fail. What please would have been the advantage to the UK? Greece will recover and become a contributor to the EU. That is an absolute certainty,
Greece is now focused upon growth and prosperity and I support the NEW Greece that will emerge within the decade. Lessons have been learnt.
I do not consider this issue to be an IN or OUT topic but clearly your stance is to find continued fault with the Union without offering alternatives or solutions. I still see no reasoning from you for a BREXIT apart from the alleged escape from, for example ,the Greek issue and the alleged collapsing Euro. These are NOT justifiable reasons to leave in my view

Just managed to stop laughing...

You believe that if you want but just wanting it will not make it happen....

The reason we should take this into account when voting out is the very real chance that Greece will continue to default and drag the rest of Europe further into the mire...

I know you are trying to influence people around to your point of view but following this thread I get the distinct impression that you are having a contrary effect... think on.

[turtle]

Waz
Do you actually believe the bilge you write ?.... Greece will repay its debt ?... Are you for real
Greece has zero chance of repaying its interest let alone its debt, i think what you meant to say is we will write off the debts of Greece and "pretend" that Greece is now debt free ?

Turtle,
Please try and take a longer term view. Greece, we agree, abused its people and the EU. It has been bailed out and now has massive debt. The terms of the bail out are clear. The debt is to be re paid. Greece has finally been forced to tighten its belt. sort out its tax regime and get back on track and become a contributing member of the Union. This will happen and I feel the saving of Greece and its people is a worthwhile cause. Am I close to the mark to take the view that your view is Britain for the British and throw everyone else to the wolves. This type of isolationism and, yes ,Xenophobia is not concussive to a strong and prosperous UK.

Waz
Your point about Greece is wrong and what's more it is widely know that it has not changed it's ways and will not repay it's huge debts thinking otherwise is very reckless in my opinion.
I take your comments about isolationism and Xenophobia tantamount to calling me racist....how dare you please retract that statement.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
The EU member states including the UK are not so stupid to let Greece proceed unchanged. Increased taxes and austerity has been implemented under great duress and pressure from the EU. My point that within the decade Greece will be towing the line and contributing to the EU is my view and I am certain of it.
I am sorry you feel my comments offends. None intended. I have asked a question; you are invited to respond. Would you throw Greece to the wolves?
" This type of isolationism and, yes ,Xenophobia is not concussive to a strong and prosperous UK."
Hardly any name calling in this comment, Your own response will clarify the situation I think

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
I remain certain that Greece will indeed recover and a reformed Greece will tow the line and become an asset to the EU.
Greece has had and will recover to a buoyant economy. The tree has been shaken for both Greece and the EU administration. Lessons have been learnt and reform will prevail. Please re consider the issues that have beset the Union and look positively at the future prospect of stability and prosperity.
The last 5 years of upheaval should not drive the UK out of Europe. The Greek matter will be a mere blink in the history of Europe. I agree that UK immigrants to the TRNC are pretty much set on an OUT vote. I have no issue with that. My own view is substantiated and is clear. The debate continues and those interested in this matter, like myself, enjoy the debate and exchange of views. Given the unlikely influence of the TRNC voters in the referendum I consider this debate an exchange of views and comments. No more than that.