Have you watched the Brexit Movie ?

[waz-24-7]

The worst case scenario if UK EXIT happens is...

We will have to listen to all those who voted to stay because they were afraid telling us it's all our fault every time anything goes wrong on the grounds it would not have happened if the UK was still in the union...

The Stay campaign has lost the plot totally unable to convince me of anything other than their desperation tactics.... next it will be the Bogeyman!

The worst case scenario if UK EXIT happens is...

We will have to listen to all those who voted to stay because they were afraid telling us it's all our fault every time anything goes wrong on the grounds it would not have happened if the UK was still in the union...

The Stay campaign has lost the plot totally unable to convince me of anything other than their desperation tactics.... next it will be the Bogeyman!

Groucho
I fear it is rather more serious than your "I told you so" anecdote.
The stay campaign has far from lost the plot. ALL the major leaders within the UK Government advocate IN. clearly many posters feel the solution lies in rubbishing our leading decision makers without any offerings of alternatives. That is so easy but you need to think and indeed present alternatives to current leaders, strategies and time scales to get the UK on the road to prosperity. I see nothing from any of the good people posting on here.
Certainly,, and rest assured, given the success of a BREXIT. I will knuckle down and work to support our government in sorting out the issues plus those presented to my business in order to maintain a level of normality.
Nothing at all to be gained from your suggestion.

[waz-24-7]

1 minute video by Prof of Economics Patrick Minford on the case of Brexit.
http://europeanpressagency.com/politics ... vantageous

Mr Minford is somewhat out of touch in his comment that the UK is a regional player.
The UK is a global player and has been for centuries.
The EU is our single biggest market place for sure but the UK DTI are continually promoting business Britain across the world.
For onward prosperity the UK must compete in ALL, each and every market place open to it. Every other country in the world does like wise.
To put any market access at risk ( BREXIT) however small is not the path to growth and prosperity.

[turtle]

You keep banging on that Brexit offers nothing well that may be the case as I would hardly expect them to make false promises like the in campaign are doing.
There is no guarantee that staying in would produce prosperity and major growth, I think you are clinging to a self made dream that this is going to happen.
The EU is propping up basket case economies and pumping money into reacting to the Immigration situation it has largely created itself, this will only continue in my opinion and will get steadily worse,..I see no long term future in the EU changing its bad ways and becoming a more democratic organisation there are simply far too many people on the EU gravy train to change any time soon.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle
Please do not forget. We are currently IN and are the 5th largest economy in the world and the second strongest in the Union. Can you please offer some facts that suggest coming out will better our current performance. The Immigration and population movements issue is not unique to Europe it is world wide. The issue represents a global problem requiring a global solution. Please keep the economic issue separate from the immigration issues.
Both are important issues but the link between the two is tenuous at best.
You are correct about the issues that the EU is faced with. The UK however cannot and certainly should not walk away from the Union in the hope the issues will not effect our country and our people. These are all issues that need to be faced up to and dealt with. The "Great Britain" behind closed doors is just not going to work. How can it please?

[Groucho]

Your critical views of the leading decision makers that I listed are also noted.

Thank God - the key decision makers are the voting public - let's hope they are not all in awe of the elite as some so obviously are...

They are without a shadow of a doubt a bunch of self-important, self-serving, mostly over-privileged twits...

I've no time for the vast majority of them...

[waz-24-7]

Your critical views of the leading decision makers that I listed are also noted.

Thank God - the key decision makers are the voting public - let's hope they are not all in awe of the elite as some so obviously are...

They are without a shadow of a doubt a bunch of self-important, self-serving, mostly over-privileged twits...

I've no time for the vast majority of them...

OK Graucho
Your opinion is noted. We, or rather you, have a problem.
Your solution please?

[Groucho]

Wazzer

I don't have a problem but I can see one and recognise it for what it is too - without being swayed by the likes of Messrs Cameron et al...

My solution is... exit.

The EU is a good idea - badly implemented and therein lies the rub - it is so far down the line now that it's too late for the reforms necessary to make it what it should always have been.

The faults of the EU are too deeply ingrained in the architecture of the EU that it is simply infeasible that they can be routed out - the machinery of the EU bureaucracy will ensure their own ongoing existence...

All the arguments for staying appear to be based on fear... and some questionable ideas about what the EU has done for us... well it's bled us dry that's for sure.

There are many businesses pleading for an exit vote because people running businesses know how bad and all-pervading the influence of the EU has been, is and will remain.

All the advances put forward as things the 'EU has done for us' do not take into account the fact that we could have done all the good things outside the EU (as many non-EU countries have done) and chosen not to do the things that are bad and have been foisted upon us from Brussels or Strasbourg or wherever the unelected councils gather to do their harm...

We don't need the EU, we shouldn't afford the EU and we don't know how the EU works... Well, we know it works badly that's for sure...

The scare tactics being employed by the stay campaign are outrageous in their inept analogy of the hell we will reap outside the EU whe we ought to have the courage to say - we'll do very nicely thank you - now stick your regulations where the sun don't shine!

They even claim that the EU has prevented war in Europe... seriously?

Negatives very seldom prove a positive...

[waz-24-7]

Groucho
Thank you.
I will certainly agree that the EU is not the best club in the division and certainly not premier league.
If we were currently OUT my view would be rather different.
Unfortunately; we are in the league and playing to the current rules.
In the 70,s after we joined the Union. The UK secured massive inward investment particularly from big businesses that remain investors in the UK securing jobs and prosperity. Currently the UK enjoys massive inward investment from particularly Indian and Chinese businesses . Much of the worlds wealth now lies in the BRIC economies and the UK competes for this investment. One of the UK;s marketing strategies is indeed "gateway to the European market". Inward investment is critical to the UK as British internal wealth has dwindled significantly. The UK simply cannot continue to grow and prosper without inward investment. Sad but very true.
I am afraid that a BREXIT disturbs the BUISNESS BRITIAN strategy and template to an extent that investment will most certainly diminish in favour of competitors who can offer the gateway package ( there are several who are quietly priming their guns). The fact that the UK has developed this strategy very successfully for the last 40 years means that a ground zero re start will simply take years to re build and sell to the markets. Time waits for no man and certainly not for a BREXIT divorce settlement. Furthermore there has ( to my knowledge and communications with UK DTI) been absolutely no economic strategy preparation for the possible BREXIT. The risk is very real and the effects will be swift and painful. This is not scaremongering. This is simple economic investment strategy that investors follow.

[Geoff1131]

waz, I have been following the various threads related to the in/out referendum. One thing is crystal clear, you are passionate about the uk staying inside the union. But I have not seen one post from anyone, who you have convinced to change their mind if they are thinking of voting out.
You over and over claim that the uk is and has been a better place since it went into the eu. But my recollections do not match yours. When the first in/out vote was taken in I think 1974=5, I voted to stay out, During my working life I have never felt a benefit of the uk being in Europe, in fact so disillusioned was I that I spent over 15 years working in the Middle East to earn a decent living. I remember well the recession in the uk when interest rates were around 16% , I wonder if all the owners of houses with negative equity felt that the uk was the utopia that you paint? No one knows for sure what will happen if the uk leaves the union , but I would back the uk people and the uk government to sort it out rather than leave things in the hands of the Meps.

[Groucho]

Groucho
Thank you.
I will certainly agree that the EU is not the best club in the division and certainly not premier league.
If we were currently OUT my view would be rather different.
Unfortunately; we are in the league.... .

Yeah well I'm glad you think our membership is unfortunate....

Simply put - if it ain't broke don't fix it...

Well it's broke beyond repair... so do you try and fix it? Throwing good money after bad? I don't think so! The attempt to get changes has been blown out of the water by the power brokers in Brussels so that's put a spanner in the works.... Cameron was rather hoping his so called re-negotiations of our membership conditions would pull the wool over our eyes and we'd all want to stay... Now they've said they won't hold water....

Using your analogy you'd think playing in the football league was the only alternative but there are plenty of other sports.... As it is we are reduced to playing Tiddlywinks.... while Germany owns the ball...

I'm not convinced you've thought through what is simply scare stories to try and spook the swing voters - but I hazard that lots of undecided voters will be put-off by the frankly ridiculous and increasingly bizarre claims being made that makes Armageddon a sure fire possibility...

It's all just too much total beeswax.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho
I question the broke beyond repair. The UK cannot stand the investment migration that I have described and does not have the tools and resources to start again.
If we do go it alone. Not Armageddon but a sure fire rebuilding process that will be long hard, very costly in economic terms and with no guarantee of success without critical outside investment. I just cannot see a strategy that will win investment against other European competitors. Germany does not call all the shots. The UK is second biggest economy in Europe hardly playing tiddly winks. Other sports...well we are premiere league football. Should we start American football....junior league I fear for some years to come.

[turtle]

Waz
Can you please explain if we have so much influence in the EU why Cameron came back with so little earlier this year ?.

[lee666]

Waz

As you seem to have an inside track on what's going to happen if we Brexit, could you choose my lottery numbers for me please. I promise to give you 10% of my winnings !!

[Groucho]

Waz
Can you please explain if we have so much influence in the EU why Cameron came back with so little earlier this year ?.

Yeah - Cameron thought he'd re-negotiated some meaningful special conditions for the UK... Turns out they have no intention of letting the UK set such a precedent - which is why the EU can't be viably repaired from inside or out...

We should come out and declare we will re-apply when the EU has fixed it's ingrowing toenails! i.e. made the EU councils democratic

Just to take the moral low ground and Increasingly desperate - I see the Stay campaign is now fostering a culture of popularity by getting a load of luvvies on their side including such luminaries with a grasp of financial realities as Jude Law, Keira Knightley and Benedict Bandysnatch... Must be an attempt to sway the 'Selfie Generation'

Well as they have never lived outside the EU I guess it's the Devil they know - but I hardly think their overblown, privileged existence will give them a great deal of insight - do you?

I've got news for you - the 'Selfie Generation' never look up from their iPads and smart phones... to think much about politics let alone care about anything of much import.

[erol]

Working with other member states, in the cyclical times frames of treaties (Rome, Mastricht, Lisbon etc) to secure real reform that will affect all members of the EU equally is how one goes about seeking to secure reform of the EU.

Seeking special concessions for your country alone, motivated by party political needs, outside the time frames of general treaties, under the threat that we will leave if we do not get special treatment, is not a sensible or effective means of seeking reform of the EU.

[waz-24-7]

Waz
Can you please explain if we have so much influence in the EU why Cameron came back with so little earlier this year ?.

I must agree that our PM returned with less than we all expected. This is not a reason to jump ship because at least we remain at the table and political time passes very quickly indeed. Of course the negotiations within the Union can be very complex and each member vies for the best possible deal.
Certainly Mr Cameron expected more based on the desire to keep the UK on board. That same desire remains and certainly there is a generally accepted view that reform and change to meet the new world wide challenges must happen. The game is far from over and the UK remains IN the game.

[Groucho]

Waz
Can you please explain if we have so much influence in the EU why Cameron came back with so little earlier this year ?.

I must agree that our PM returned with less than we all expected. This is not a reason to jump ship because at least we remain at the table and political time passes very quickly indeed.

"This is not a reason to jump ship"

Oh yes it is....

Just how long do you think it prudent to remain at the table eating a poisoned meal?

If after all these years the EU only seems to get worse and worse, more bureaucratic and not less is it not time to call a halt and say - well. we've given it a good go and it's simply a load of tosh that is eating away at our values and way of life - enough is always enough.

If your leg has gangrene you get it amputated...

[Groucho]

Working with other member states, in the cyclical times frames of treaties (Rome, Mastricht, Lisbon etc) to secure real reform that will affect all members of the EU equally is how one goes about seeking to secure reform of the EU.

Good luck with that one Erol - I never had you down as naive but if you believe that then all I can say is.... see you on the other side before anything meaningful changes for the better inside the EU.

The ONLY way the EU will reform is if the UK leaves and the other dissatisfied members threaten to follow suit... they are watching us as we speak!

The overblown machinery of the EU is self-serving not EU members serving... It's the best jolly in town and let nobody dare interfere with their gravy train....

Out, damned spot! out, I say!

It is after all a tragedy....

[erol]

If after all these years the EU only seems to get worse and worse, more bureaucratic and not less is it not time to call a halt and say - well. we've given it a good go and it's simply a load of tosh that is eating away at our values and way of life - enough is always enough.

The EU is a bureaucracy, just like UK government or local government is a bureaucracy. Just like those it some times 'gets in the way' and other times it performs useful functions for the benefit of society at large. Just one example of the kind of things the EU can and does do, that benefits ordinary people across the EU would be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_U ... egulations

The cost of making or receiving a call on a mobile when 'roaming' in an EU country other than your own has come down orders of magnitude because of intervention by the EU. This is not something the UK government could or would do on it's own. It is 'bureaucracy' that has achieved this.

[Groucho]

The EU bureaucracy is largely unelected and out of control - the one example you've quoted is a very isolated example of progress - which could be countered times ten with regressive things we din't need... and you've fallen into the trap of believing that such progress could only have been achieved by EU membership. That is a downright falsehood. The UK Government would have been perfectly capable if they had the will of instructing all UK based mobile phone companies that they could not charge the exorbitant roaming rates that they did.... OK it has been made simpler, but it could have been done in the UK and other EU countries would have to have followed suit or seem greedy - making the likes of Vodafone seem generous - but nobody in the UK had the political will....

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
The UK is not a failing economy. It is successful. Please don't paint a picture of failure and gangrene. Your case to Leave the Union appears to be based upon dissatisfaction with the current format and administration. These as most are aware can and will change in the next decade. This is a viable proposal.
How did you feel say 30 years ago when the UK capitalised most successfully on investment from and trade with the Union.
The short term issues you relay are NOT a reason to jump ship.

[erol]

The EU bureaucracy is largely unelected and out of control -

And UK government bureaucracy is not largely unelected ? Have you seen 'Yes Minister / Prime Minister' ? When was any civil servant in the UK elected ?

the one example you've quoted is a very isolated example of progress - which could be countered times ten with regressive things we din't need...

Debatable.

and you've fallen into the trap of believing that such progress could only have been achieved by EU membership. That is a downright falsehood. The UK Government would have been perfectly capable if they had the will of instructing all UK based mobile phone companies that they could not charge the exorbitant roaming rates that they did.... OK it has been made simpler, but it could have been done in the UK and other EU countries would have to have followed suit or seem greedy - making the likes of Vodafone seem generous - but nobody in the UK had the political will....

Such EU wide regulation would have required all the countries to negotiate such a deal jointly. Doing this outside the EU structures would be and is next to impossible, which is why there no such international limits on what operators charge globally. These restrictions on roaming charges do not apply for example to Switzerland, despite it's close ties to the EU - because the EU can not legislate for what happens in Switzerland. You can claim that the UK could have secured the same outside the EU but I just think you are mistaken about this.

[jacob]

Waz I am assuming you live in he TRNC, I may be wrong If I am correct, why didn't you choose to live in an EU country, you are clearly obsessed with remaining in this failing, undemocratic organisation.

[waz-24-7]

Waz I am assuming you live in he TRNC, I may be wron. ,Iif I am correct, why didn't you choose to live in an EU country, you are clearly obsessed with remaining in tis failing, undemocratic organisation.

Jacob.
I deem myself fortunate that my main residence is in the UK. I am in Turkey and TRNC regularly however. I am absolutely focussed on the Issue as a British citizen.
I am not obsessed with the EU. I deem that continued Union membership is the most likely and positive route to continued success economically for the UK. If people are willing to carry the UK through recession and economic decline then certainly we should leave and go it alone.
Personally and for the sake of my children and indeed British youngsters setting out on the road to prosperity success and potential fortune. My Vote is remain IN as most likely to meet those aspirations The risks are just too big for OUT.

[Geoff1131]

waz, again you try to tell us all that if we leave the union, we are at great risk of plunging the uk into austerity and recession. But I can remember the early 80's recession very well and we are only just recovering from the recent recession which started in 2008. Now I know the eu was not responsible for the economic meltdown, but the uk were in the club at the time. So do you think that if there were to be another recession and the uk were not in the club then things would be any different? The uk was also inside the eu when the unemployment rate in the uk went over 1.5 million for the first time. If being a part of the eu was so important to growth in the uk can you explain this?

[Groucho]

Again I see nothing but fear....

It's just not a cogent argument to remain in a failed organisation - There is nothing that the UK can not do better... just scare tactics and doom merchants...

Weigh-up the pros and cons by all means - but please don't insult our intelligence with loads of crap about how it will all go wrong when we choose not to remain in a ridiculously corrupt and badly guided bloc...

[erol]

Again I see nothing but fear....

Explaining why it makes sense to do things like 'certification' EU wide rather than duplicate such functions 28 times in each member country is not 'fear' - it is pointing out that it is sensible and efficient to do some things collectively.

It's just not a cogent argument to remain in a failed organisation

You are the one declaring it a failed organisation though. To date in it's history no country that chose to join it has left it, countless countries are still trying to join it and to date only the UK is having a referendum to ask the people if they wish to leave it. If it really were unquestionably a failed organisation then imo more who are in it would be seeking to leave and fewer who are outside it would be seeking to join.

- There is nothing that the UK can not do better... just scare tactics and doom merchants...

This is just not true and I have given a couple of examples of why this is not true. The UK alone can not control what is charged for mobiles in Spain when roaming in Spain or what is charged when calling from Spain to France whilst roaming in either. The EU can and has done such and it is not correct to say the UK could have done this itself alone outside the EU. It could not. Central 'certification' that is EU wide is another example of something the UK could not do alone. There are many others but only if you are willing to see them.

Weigh-up the pros and cons by all means - but please don't insult our intelligence with loads of crap about how it will all go wrong when we choose not to remain in a ridiculously corrupt and badly guided bloc...

Indeed weigh up the pros and cons but please do not insult our intelligence with loads of crap that says we can keep all of the benefits of being in the EU (boarder free and tariff free trade benefits, travel and work benefits, efficiency benefits and all the rest) with none of the downsides (having to pay for it, being subject to EU legislation and all the rest) by leaving.

[terry2366]

Could we change the title please to Waz's soapbox and a lecture on why the world will end if we leave the EU ? I think we are all grown up now and can make our own mind up. What comes next water boarding ??

[Groucho]

Erol,

High charges for roaming only occurred during EU membership and it's taken a long time to rectify the problem...

If the EU had stopped the massive rise in UK University tuition fees I might be more impressed... as it is University will soon become the preserve of the wealthy elite again...

[Groucho]

Again I see nothing but fear....

Explaining why it makes sense to do things like 'certification' EU wide rather than duplicate such functions 28 times in each member country is not 'fear' - it is pointing out that it is sensible and efficient to do some things collectively.

It's just not a cogent argument to remain in a failed organisation

You are the one declaring it a failed organisation though. To date in it's history no country that chose to join it has left it, countless countries are still trying to join it and to date only the UK is having a referendum to ask the people if they wish to leave it. If it really were unquestionably a failed organisation then imo more who are in it would be seeking to leave and fewer who are outside it would be seeking to join.

- There is nothing that the UK can not do better... just scare tactics and doom merchants...

This is just not true and I have given a couple of examples of why this is not true. The UK alone can not control what is charged for mobiles in Spain when roaming in Spain or what is charged when calling from Spain to France whilst roaming in either. The EU can and has done such and it is not correct to say the UK could have done this itself alone outside the EU. It could not. Central 'certification' that is EU wide is another example of something the UK could not do alone. There are many others but only if you are willing to see them.

Weigh-up the pros and cons by all means - but please don't insult our intelligence with loads of crap about how it will all go wrong when we choose not to remain in a ridiculously corrupt and badly guided bloc...

Indeed weigh up the pros and cons but please do not insult our intelligence with loads of crap that says we can keep all of the benefits of being in the EU (boarder free and tariff free trade benefits, travel and work benefits, efficiency benefits and all the rest) with none of the downsides (having to pay for it, being subject to EU legislation and all the rest) by leaving.

The fact that you think the EU is not a failed organisation says a lot about your gullibility

There are only two trade agreements within the EU... that's right two...

On a wider scale the WTO by its very constitution will not allow the EU to discriminate against the UK and remove free trade without tariffs should we leave... so the major benefits would remain. Only the scaremongers argue that we will lose out over trade.

I'm quite happy to show my passport... and know that I am a UK citizen.

[turtle]

Groucho,
The UK is not a failing economy. It is successful. Please don't paint a picture of failure and gangrene. Your case to Leave the Union appears to be based upon dissatisfaction with the current format and administration. These as most are aware can and will change in the next decade. This is a viable proposal.
How did you feel say 30 years ago when the UK capitalised most successfully on investment from and trade with the Union.
The short term issues you relay are NOT a reason to jump ship.

"Change in the next decade" or maybe 20yrs ?....... I am certainly not waiting that long.... totally irresponsible view.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
The UK is not a failing economy. It is successful. Please don't paint a picture of failure and gangrene. Your case to Leave the Union appears to be based upon dissatisfaction with the current format and administration. These as most are aware can and will change in the next decade. This is a viable proposal.
How did you feel say 30 years ago when the UK capitalised most successfully on investment from and trade with the Union.
The short term issues you relay are NOT a reason to jump ship.

"Change in the next decade" or maybe 20yrs ?....... I am certainly not waiting that long.... totally irresponsible view.

Turtle,
That is my estimated time to achieve the level of reform that I think is required . If we vote to remain IN then the playing field will indeed change regardless because of the tree shacking that is currently actively happening in the UK and within other member states. This represents a real opportunity for the case to reform and change. This will take time.

Should we vote OUT. How long do you think it will take to, negotiate new trade deals, re formulate some sort of British standards to replace all the current EU directives, standards etc and incidently these will need to comply if we want to sell into Europe, commence negotiations upon freedom of travel and visa requirements for at least 40 other countries. The UK will be plunged into a ground zero re organisation. Do you somehow think leaving the EU will be like waving a magic wand and that the UK will be the NEW Utopia. I think your own view and unwillingness to wait is ill thought out and indeed irresponsible.

[Groucho]

Why the idea that all regulation will suddenly disappear? We can keep all the current regulations - the EU doesn't own them and can not withdraw them... simply pass them into our system... and slowly and carefully rescind those that do not suit our purpose.

[turtle]

Waz
Don't me me laugh,...British Standards started in 1901 long before meddling bureaucrats got hold of the rule books.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho
Are you suggesting we will stay a little bit in the EU then? We can choose the bits we like?? The vote is a clear IN or OUT no half way house I think. We could revert to the 1972 british standards. What a massive step backward that would be!! So how long will the NEW go it alone UK take to get up and running after the possible OUT. I have seen no planning or proposals from anybody. Even UKIP do not have a contingency plan that is at all plausible. The resulting chaos and uncertainty will cause irreparable damage to our economy with any possible recovery taking far greater than the decade you are not prepared to allow for reform. This sort of blasé and without foundation decision making and voting is what causes me the most concern

[waz-24-7]

Waz
Don't me me laugh,...British Standards started in 1901 long before meddling bureaucrats got hold of the rule books.

Turtle
Wonderful but the system is no longer in place and is not currently applicable. The CE system is now standard and the UK will need to meet these standards in order to trade and sell goods into the lucrative EU market. Reintroducing a British standards office will be an expensive and time consuming exercise with on going costs to administer, enforce and police. Furthermore any British standard will just not carry the credence of the respected CE mark. The CE system is just one area that makes UK goods easier to sell. We pay for this in our contributions. Comply or be excluded simple as that.

[erol]

The fact that you think the EU is not a failed organisation says a lot about your gullibility

I did not actually express my opinion - I just pointed out based on how many countries had left and how many are seeking to join, the claim that it is a failed organisation is not supported by this evidence. If placing more weight on evidence rather than one persons expressed opinions means I am gullible them so be it.

On a wider scale the WTO by its very constitution will not allow the EU to discriminate against the UK and remove free trade without tariffs should we leave... so the major benefits would remain. Only the scaremongers argue that we will lose out over trade.

Well if pointing out facts is scaremongering then so be it. WTO rules would indeed limit the UK's ability to place tariffs on all sorts of German goods imported into the UK (like cars and washing machines) if the Uk was outside the EU but it would not protect the UK export of 'services' (banking, insurance, consultancy). Have a look at what % the UK's exports to the EU are for 'services' (and not covered by WTO agreements) and then look at the UK's imports from the EU. The majority of what we import from the EU is covered by WTO agreements, the majority of what we export to the EU is not covered by WTO agreements. So if we leave the EU we can not place any restrictions on majority of EU imports beyond those allowed under WTO rules (and who is screaming about THIS 'loss of sovereignty') but the EU countries we export too could place restrictions on the majority of things we export to them without any WTO restrictions.

Still it seems clear to me that many people do not want actual discussion about this issue so I will stop.

[turtle]

Waz
Are you serious ?
The BSI is a very well respected organisation helping business to achieve standards all over the world if yo think that a CE "mark" trumps the BSI then you need to do a little homework.... I suggest you stasrt here. http://www.bsigroup.com

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
You are somewhat confused.
BSI is a private profit making organisation providing businesses around the world with quality assurance certification. for example they can audit the international ISO 9000 quality assurance scheme. It is NOT to be confused with the old UK "kite " mark which was the precursor to the now current CE mark which reflects a European standard. Standards that reflect safety, functionality, fit for purpose, NOT quality of manufacturing techniques. The CE marks has certainly made many far eastern manufacturers pay attention to the European requirements upon safe and functional products.
Homework done!!

[Groucho]

More obfuscation - Europe is over overrun with cheap Chinese goods! Having a CE mark has done jack sh1t to stop it...

As you seem very keen on making analogies what would you say to the suggestion that a woman in an abusive marriage should respond to the suggestion that she should stay in the marriage as her husband might reform in 10 to 20 years and stop beating her?

[turtle]

Absolutely,.. the Chinese crap that is flooding in under the guise of German or Japanese manufacture shows what a joke the "CE" mark actually is.
I take your point it should be made to a certain standards but let me tell you this simply does not happen ?

[jacob]

The endurance badge goes to Turtle, you have a lot of patience.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
The abusive marriage analogy is hardly reflective. Firstly it is a singular decision my a single person and violence is clearly a contributing factor. It is also a decision that should have no compromise. OUT.
The BREXIT vote is multi lateral effecting millions of UK citizens. It the next generation who will be most effected by the fallout. I am boosted today to read that the IN campaign is gathering momentum and is now ahead in the poles. This positive news has quickly been reflected in a strengthening of sterling. The Markets will dictate the success OR failure of this referendum with regard to the UK economy. No amount of patriotic , go it alone foot stamping will change that fact.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
Yes the CE system is abused and will never be perfect. However the system is one of the most secure in the world and in general terms has led to safer and better products. Any UK stand alone such as the old BS kite mark will just not be respected to a level of the current CE. It would be foolish to even try and re introduce any sot of stand alone certification. The UK will need to negotiate ( tough one in my view) an involvement in the CE system. If we are OUT then we will be forced to be continually on the back foot and have no meaningful input. The UK will be forced to tow the line.
There are so many instances where the UK will be excluded and will need to comply. We should be rather concerned about that.

[turtle]

Be careful of the polls Waz,.. you know how wrong they can be

Incidentally I did a bit of a straw poll at work on Thursday.... 16 staff, 12 male aged 22 - 57 & 4 female aged 19-41...... 8 voted out,.. 3 voted in and 5 don't knows.
It was interesting to note that 3 of the ladies are don't knows !

[waz-24-7]

Turtle.
Absolutely
I think the don't knows are critical as the campaigns gather momentum.
I expect a good turnout on this one.

[woodspeckie]

Waz. Do you contribute to the UK economy you seem to spend so much time on Kibcom or is that classed as working?

[waz-24-7]

Waz. Do you contribute to the UK economy you seem to spend so much time on Kibcom or is that classed as working?

Yes I contribute to the UK economy, Employing, exporting and paying taxes and revenues.
Modern technology allows me to work from a laptop almost anywhere in the World. I am supported by an excellent team of UK people pushing hard to earn and contribute foreign currency for the UK economy.

[Groucho]

Groucho,
The abusive marriage analogy is hardly reflective. Firstly it is a singular decision my a single person and violence is clearly a contributing factor. It is also a decision that should have no compromise. OUT.
The BREXIT vote is multi lateral effecting millions of UK citizens. It the next generation who will be most effected by the fallout. I am boosted today to read that the IN campaign is gathering momentum and is now ahead in the poles. This positive news has quickly been reflected in a strengthening of sterling. The Markets will dictate the success OR failure of this referendum with regard to the UK economy. No amount of patriotic , go it alone foot stamping will change that fact.

It's actually worse than my singular abusive marriage analogy because it's like the abusive German spouse invites his mates round to give his wife a good beating too....

The point you seem to dwell on but not prove is that it must go pear shaped if we leave... OK it won't be easy but we will make it work - have done in past and will do again.

All the stay campaign is based on negatives of leaving - that suits your narrative... you never mention all the things that need to put right only the things you regard as positive and claim they are all because we are members and do not question whether they could have been achieved outside the EU - or indeed whether they might have been progressed more quickly without EU meddling...

EU membership has been, is and will be a negative drain on millions of UK citizens there is no doubt of that....

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
The abusive marriage analogy is hardly reflective. Firstly it is a singular decision my a single person and violence is clearly a contributing factor. It is also a decision that should have no compromise. OUT.
The BREXIT vote is multi lateral effecting millions of UK citizens. It the next generation who will be most effected by the fallout. I am boosted today to read that the IN campaign is gathering momentum and is now ahead in the poles. This positive news has quickly been reflected in a strengthening of sterling. The Markets will dictate the success OR failure of this referendum with regard to the UK economy. No amount of patriotic , go it alone foot stamping will change that fact.

It's actually worse than my singular abusive marriage analogy because it's like the abusive German spouse invites his mates round to give his wife a good beating too....

The point you seem to dwell on but not prove is that it must go pear shaped if we leave... OK it won't be easy but we will make it work - have done in past and will do again.

All the stay campaign is based on negatives of leaving - that suits your narrative... you never mention all the things that need to put right only the things you regard as positive and claim they are all because we are members and do not question whether they could have been achieved outside the EU - or indeed whether they might have been progressed more quickly without EU meddling...

EU membership has been, is and will be a negative drain on millions of UK citizens there is no doubt of that....

Groucho.
My belief is that the economy will be severely and negatively impacted with BREXIT. I have stated why this is more than likely and this is supported my senior and influential narrators, eg. Legrande, Carney, I have said that reform is needed ("you never mention all the things that need to put right")and the UK referendum has shaken the tree towards that goal. "it will not be easy" I assume you refer to the UK as a stand alone and attaining individual prosperity. I have asked you how long do you think this will take given that the 18-30 age group actively seeking to set their path to prosperity will be lumbered with the hindrances a BREXIT will present. You , I guess will not be effected so much by this. EU membership comes with a cost certainly but the UK has prospered economically after 40 years of membership. Look at our world position economically , does this not indicate some success? This success cannot ,In my view, be maintained and certainly not bettered with a BREXIT. The negatives of leaving I have indicated in many posts. ....I am yet to see anything that convinces me and others that the UK will be better off and more prosperous with BREXIT.