Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://w ... UcXKODPRiQ

Beggars belief,it really does.

Dodger, I don't believe what I have just read. Why are they trying for any sort of settlement ???

Give `em nowt.

Owl Lady wrote:Dodger, I don't believe what I have just read. Why are they trying for any sort of settlement ???

My sentiments exactly.

I have only been involved in the Cyprus situation since my RAF days at Akrotiri in '69.
I lived in Limassol for three years and witnessed the treatment of the Turks and the attitude of the Greeks toward the Turks neither of which was pleasant.
I had friends on both sides who rubbed along together as they saw themselves as Cypriots!
However the Makarious followers saw things differently.
The outcome was attempted genocide watched both by my lot and the toothless UN !!
In my limited experience having seen what has followed I would advise the Turks never to "do a deal" with the Greeks but it is a shame the rest of the "civilised" world don't seem, to agree.

They keep referring to it as an invasion rather than an intervention. So long as they do that there is no chance of the situation being accepted. Why can't the rest of the "civilised" world see that Turkey INTERVENED to stop the onslaught/genicide.
Don't pay them a penny piece, in fact ask for compensation yourselves for protecting the TC's.

These troubles started slightly more than 50 years ago and right from the start GC propaganda blamed an uprising by the Turkish Cypriots and continued distorting the truth from that point forward. For the majority of the GC population this was the "truth" and it has never varied over the years.

The current generations only have the stories handed down from their elders; they have never read books like the Genocide Files or ever had any form of reality exposed to them. In the light of that then certainly Turkey did invade and nothing will ever change that opinion, they will never stop hero-worshipping EOKA fighters, they will never stop believing they are right. And such is their skill at propaganda that the rest of the world believes their "truth" also.

Lol, and it carries on. Maybe I should ask for compensation from Greece for ruining my holiday in 1974? http://www.thegreenline.co.uk

Will be adding this to Kibkom Times this week. Any objections to using your comments on this thread in our article?

As a TC I know the history of Cyprus from a TC perspective. However I accept and even welcome this ruling from the ECHR. There is no denying that many GC Cypriots suffered as a result of the events of 74 and just because TC suffering prior to this has not also been recognised by courts like the ECHR does not mean that GC suffering should just be ignored. 150000 or so GC lost their homes as a result of 74. 1500 odd went missing and whilst some of these almost certainly were a result of GC on GC killings it is also true that some were the result of Turkish military action in Cyprus in 74. Yes Turkish intervention in 74 was necessary. Strong arguments that division of Cyprus by force of arms was necessary can be made but none of this means, to me at least, that the real suffering of GC as a result of this should be not be recognised and addressed by the ECHR.

The ECHR is a remarkable institution and whilst it is far from perfect it does represent a unique forum for international justice, for idividuals against states and for states against states. I respect it as a body and I respect its judgments even though I may not agree with them personally in every aspect.

I respect you views Erol.

Eyes and ears Worldwide have been closed for 50 years when it comes to the TC's story... any amends should work both ways. Besides, how does money repair what has happened? A shake of hands should be enough. What's done is done, don't look back and work towards a better future together; they did it in the past, they can do it again.

Soner wrote:Lol, and it carries on. Maybe I should ask for compensation from Greece for ruining my holiday in 1974? http://www.thegreenline.co.uk

Will be adding this to Kibkom Times this week. Any objections to using your comments on this thread in our article?

No problem at all Soner.

Soner wrote:Lol, and it carries on. Maybe I should ask for compensation from Greece for ruining my holiday in 1974? http://www.thegreenline.co.uk

Will be adding this to Kibkom Times this week. Any objections to using your comments on this thread in our article?

I've got no objections.

Nor me with my 2peneth.

A day after the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ordered Turkey to pay 90 million euros in compensation to the Greek Cypriot administration for 'violations' committed during the 1974 Cyprus military operation, Turkish Cypriots, who have reacted angrily to the verdict, mark the 50th anniversary since the tragic 'Lost Bus' massacre.

On 13 May 1964, eleven Turkish Cypriots left their homes in Tuzla (Engomi) and Larnaca on their way to work in the British-controlled zone of Dhekelia. Just as they did everyday, the group of workers boarded the town's bus after saying goodbye to their families. However, little did their families know that they would never see their loved ones again.

On their way to work, their route was blocked by a group of armed Greek Cypriot EOKA militiamen who ordered all of the passengers out. They were then taken to an unknown location and killed.

Read full story on the KibApp.

Download from here: http://www.kibapp.com

Bit difficult to down load on a basic idiot proof Nokia brick!!!!

Interesting thread and some good points being made.

Erols viewpoint is interesting and whilst I do not fully agree I respect what is being said.

Whilst I was not old enough when the EOKA campaign was in full swing in the late 50's I have, like a sponge soaked up and read an awful amount of literature on this time in the islands history. Having been on the island as a teenager from 70 - 73 and then returned during my service days plus many holidays, I have probably spent in excess of 12 years living out there.

I suppose from 70 - 73 I was to young to understand/appreciate much of what had happened in the 50's and early 60's and to be honest when we were out there it just seemed an idyllic lifestyle and a great place to grow up. The history of the place really gripped me when as 16 year old I watched with sadness the attempted coup and the actions that unfolded thereafter. From then on I have read, watched and YOU Tubed as much as I can about those turbulent years. Our bookshelf in North Cyprus is full of books about the island and its most recent history.

Unfortunately the British have a poor record on the island and when Cyprus gained independence often took the stance of divide and rule. Only a few short years after gaining its independence in 1960 did Makarios start to try to amend the constitution and what had been agreed, this led to the start of the ongoing troubles over many years which included killings by both sides. It was however the clear intention of many greek cypriots, supported initially by Makarios and the EOKA fighters to achieve Enosis and union with Greece, so the ethnic cleansing of the turkish minority continued.

Eventually in 1974 the miltary junta in Greece plus greek officers on the island grew impatient with the time taken to achieve the Enosis dream and decided to remove Makarios. This was the final straw for Turkey and the turkish cypriot population and after consulting with Britain; who sad to say did nothing, Turkey as a guarantor power intervened and initiated the Peace Operation. I really believe they had little choice as to do nothing would have mean't the removal of the turkish cypriot population.

One could say Turkey made the mistake of manipulating population growth by encouraging mainland turkish settlers to come to Cyprus post 1974 which has further complicated matters. However since 1974, by and large the island has been at peace with no mass killings by either side.

The history from the late 1950's to date is fascinating and anyone who has an interest in where they live should at least try and understand what happened.....sadly sometimes I think many have no idea about the island's history.
The documentary "Sharing an Island" I can really recommend....great watch seeing the recent history thro the eyes of young people from both sides. It is out on DVD as well as on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sharing- ... 3927636931

“This remains an extremely expensive unresolved problem,” Pope said, citing costs for Turkey that include military spending and financial assistance to the enclave.

“The compensation is a drop in the ocean compared with the shiploads of costs that not solving the Cyprus solution has incurred for Turkey … since the 1960s,” he said."

Yep, very good points and ones that Turkey will be very aware and mindful of. What prompted the ECHR to come to a decision after 20 years? What's happening behind the scenes?

Excellent post P.D.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 13we45.htm

I find the above (link provided) a compelling argument that a great disservice continues to be visited upon the TC's by a deaf western world that in those days wouldn't take sides against the GC's because their religion and because in 1960 - 1974 we just didn't side with Moslem factions against 'Christian' ones. I have deliberately put the inverted commas around the word Christian as by their actions and intentions what they had planned for TC's was anything but what I recognise as even approaching common decency and humanity....

That this evidence has been allowed to fester on UK parliament's own website for years and yet remains un-addressed in any meaningful way only continues to shame the UK in not taking up the plight of TC's more vociferously.

Erol, nobody is saying that nothing was visited upon GC's... but if you pick a fight and get a bloody nose you can hardly bleat about it for 40 years (unless you are GC that is). They allowed themselves to be duped by the likes of Markarios and his erstwhile henchmen into believing that they had a God given right to the island and could have it all if only they'd fight for it. The effort to prosecute genocide upon the TC's was an act of war and It is a truism of all wars that if you wage war in an effort to attain that which is not rightly yours you'd better be prepared to lose what you have. In all wars ground is won and lost... The fact that powerful families stood to gain most from the unrest is to their great shame but the shameful re-writing of history and the downright lies still preached about their own culpability will not serve them well in the long term. At some point they will need to explain to their younger generations that their granddad et al were scoundrels who took part in sectarian violence against innocent men, women and children in an effort to press their advantage and that only Turkey's intervention prevented them from succeeding whilst the UN sat on their hands and did little. UN shame on you!

As far as I know, this has never been a Greek island even though the BBC of all august bodies keeps referring to it as same....

Sorry for the length of these posts.

I know what TC suffered in 64-74. My uncle was taken from his place of work, Barclays Bank, in broad daylight and in front of many witnesses in 1964 by illegal ethnic based militia thugs, murdered and his body dumped in a well in Ayia Napa. He was not an extremist, not a member of TMT and indeed was continuing to go work against the advise of the TC leadership of the time to not go into GC controlled areas. He was just a normal man doing his best to try and support his wife and 3 young children in the worst of times. I know he was murdered in the pursuit of a political agenda and ideology. I know that many of these militia thugs were controlled and run out of the Interior Ministry of a then all GC run RoC government and that this very same government was recognised as legitimate by western world powers because doing so was expedient to their self interest at that time. I feel the righteous indignation of such a Government having been granted recognition because of political expediency. I feel the righteous indignation at this ECHR ruling from a body that has never recognised the murder of my uncle or the suffering on his family of him being 'missing' or granting 'just satisfaction' for this suffering. I know all these things but they are not the only things I know.

I also know I can not want and expect and demand of others that they recognised 'my' pain, 'my' suffering, 'my' righteous indignation whilst refusing to recognise 'theirs', or whilst I seek to excuse theirs away. I know that whilst I may want things of and from others what I actually have direct control over is myself and that their refusal to meet my wants is not an excuse to deny to them the very things I want and expect from them.

[cont]

I know that there were those within the highest levels of the GC leadership that were willing to and did use ethnic based violence and terror in the pursuit of their political agenda. Just as I know there were those within the highest levels of the TC leadership who were willing to and did do the same. I know that GC murdered GC moderates that advocated pan Cypriot unity. As I know that TC did the same to moderates within their community that advocated the same. I know that most ordinary GC then and today are not bad or evil people and that as far as they have culpability it is for letting the extremists in their communities do the things they did in their name in the pursuit of political agendas rooted in dogma and myopic ideology. Just as I know that the same is true for the TC community. I know that today there are still extremists within the GC community that believe and argue that their community is blameless innocents and ours with the aid of Turkey the only guilty parties. As I know there are also GC that refuse to accept such a distorted perspective and openly and publically talk about their communities culpability. As I know there are same today within my community, both those who deny all culpability and those who acknowledge it. I know that the TC communities rights and their very physical safety were sacrificed on the alter of political expediency of 'world powers self interest in 64. Just as those of GC were in 74.

As far as I have a dogmatic belief, it is that there is no ethnic component to good or evil or right and wrong. That such things exist within all communities and individuals regardless of ethnic background. That GC are no better or worse or even really that different from TC simply because they GC or TC or any other ethnicity. I believe this to be true and that evidence supports it but even if this were not the case I would probably still choose to believe it anyway..

[cont]

For me to just say 'they started it and got their just deserts' is not good enough nor do I believe it to be true in such simplistic terms. As Cypriots I believe we have a duty to strive to do better that we have to date. No individual or community can do this alone of course but that is not for me a valid excuse to not strive to do so.

As for 'Cyprus has never been a Greek Island' in the sense that it has never been formally a part of a nation called Greece this is true. However that it has been populated by people who spoke Greek and consider themselves Greek in one form or another for thousands of years can not be denied nor is it irrelevant.

So for the reasons above I stand by my original post where I said "However I accept and even welcome this ruling from the ECHR."

So Erol where do you stand on reparations needing to be made by GC's and Greece for their part in the problem? There are two sides to this history as you rightly point out... but surely you accept to dump all blame at Turkey's door and say they alone must make reparations is wrong - or do you think it's fair for them to pay and all others escape such measures?

Erol - Last few posts are a good read.

Groucho - Very good point.

I personally cannot forget that was the greek military junta instigated and carried out its attempted coup in 1974, with the full support of the greek officers seconded to the national guard in Cyprus. Therefore Greece must take its share of the blame for what happened - it was they who instigated the situation we find ourselves in today.

IMO it was a combined failure of the guarantor powers (GB/Turkey and Greece) in not preventing this before it happened. However once the coup started and the removal of Makarios was inevitable, it was a failing of the UK not to come out strongly and exercise its rights under as a guarantor power to ensure the independence of Cyprus. Unfortunately the UK stood by and did nothing.

No doubt there were other forces at work with the USA having a heavy influence and I believe the partition of the island likely suited them and the UK as Turkey would be seen as the aggressor and not them.

Turkey were the one's who rightly moved forward as a guarantor power and commenced its peace operation to try and prevent mass bloodshed and secure a quick end to the fighting. Cannot think they had any choice as to sit back and do nothing would have mean't inter communal strife and killings ongoing for many many years.

The so called green line was already drawn up and after an initial ceasefire and failing negotiations, Turkey pushed forward to the line which now splits the country. Since 1974 the island has largely been at peace and the persecution and killings by both sides has stopped. For me that can only be a good thing.

The reconciliation process has been ongoing for 40 years, its slow and painful but it has moved forward. The border is easy to cross and the mixing of the two communities is slowly healing old wounds - time as they say is a great healer.

Groucho, thanks for the link, a good read.

Presidency: “ Decision of ECHR is deprived of legal basis and contradicting with principles of justice”
TRNC Presidency issued a statement regarding the decision of European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) which ordered Turkey to pay 90 million euros compensation to Greek Cypriot Administration for Cyprus Peace Operation in 1974. It was stated that the decision of ECHR is deprived of legal basis and contradicting with principles of justice. It is also a political decision.

The statement also drew attention to timing of the judgement stating that such a decision which was given at the time when substantial issues began to be negotiated is thought-provoking and it serves to give one of the two sides a political and psychological advantage over the other.

Prime Minister Özkan Yorgancıoğlu said that he does not approve the decision of the European Court of Human Rights which ordered Turkey to pay 90 million euros compensation .
During one of his reception yesterday,Yorgancıoğlu said “ I hope the decision of ECHR will not have a negative influence on Cyprus negotiations. In my opinion Turkey’s reaction was very mature”.
Yorgancıoğlu also also added that in his opinion what important is to solve the problem and abolish such matters because it is not possible to reach a result with such cases.

Özersay: “Decision of ECHR will complicate the issue”
Turkish Cypriot negotiator Kudret Özersay stated that if the decision, made by European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) against Turkey creates a perception of “we are not in hurry” in Greek Cypriot side, it will create a serious problem.
Emphasizing that the decision by ECHR is unfortunate because of timing, Özersay said “ if one of the sides believes that it gains a victory through decision of court or any other way in the solution of international dispute, reaching a result on the negotiation table will be more difficult. In this respect, I think it is a decision which will not help us, contrary it will complicate the process”.
Özersay also stated that Turkish Cypriot side proposed 3 new proposals during the negotiation conducted yesterday.

TR Foreign Affairs Ministry: “Decision of ECHR is unfair”
Spokesman of Turkish Foreign Affairs Ministry Tanju Bilgiç made a statement concerning the decision made by European Court of Human Rights and said “Turkey will maintain its determined attitude for finding a just and lasting solution to Cyprus problem despite the unfair decision of ECHR against Turkey”.
On the other hand, Turkish Foreign Affairs Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu made a statement concerning the decision and said “within the context of the method applied and international law, we do not consider it binding, and we do not deem it necessary to make this payment”.
Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Beşir Atalay said that the decision of ECHR will not influence the negotiation process in Cyprus.
EU Minister and Chief negotiator of Turkey Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu stated the timing of decision is unfortunate and said “It is a decision which has inconveniencies in terms of jurisdiction, political and practicability”.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://w ... KTGvso2W3w

Lokks like they (Turkey) are saying swivel on that.

Turkey should counter sue both Greece and the UK for breach of trust in refusing to act upon the duties required of them as joint guarantors. They had signed up to protect both communities and singularly failed to keep their sides of the bargain... Then we'd see them wriggle a bit....

Good point Groucho, should have done this a long time ago.
3 Gaurantors: Greece, UK and Turkey.

Greece invades
UK ignores
Turkey acts

Who's in the wrong?

Turkey was not in the wrong in the July 74 Intervention - that is a fact supported by the EU.
Greece was in the wrong as was the GC part of government of the RoC by allowing Greece to invade, that act was clearly against the constitution of the RoC.
UK sat on its collective thumbs and did nothing apart from continue to support the GC people, even to the extent of ordering its military forces on Island to offer no aid or assistance to TC people! So afraid of upsetting the monarchy, due to its Greek background, the UK Government did what it always has done - it waited to see what happened and which side the world would judge to be right before it took any action.
Turkey was wrong in mounting its second offensive later in 1974 following its intervention. That appears to be why the collective "intervention" has been labeled an "Invasion" by all and sundry.

For the future - take it out of the hands of the politicians and let the people decide what they want to do, the Island belongs to the native people and not to the politicians when all set and done. An honest poll run by a total independent body, that has no allegiance with Greece, Turkey, UK, USA or the Mediterranean basin would give the people their voice but who, in governments, would risk and honest poll?

'Article IV
In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.

In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.'

The guarantors 'undertake' to consult - each 'reserves the right' to take unilateral action. As I read this there is a (legal) obligation to 'consult' in the event of a breach but not an obligation to act, just a reserved right to do so.

No one doubts that Turkey had a valid legal right to intervene in Cyprus as a result of the Greek coup. The problem is that its right to do so was only to do so ' with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.' That Turkey took a unilateral view that re - establishing the state of affairs of the present treaty was no longer possible and chose to instead impose a solution by force of arms that involved the forced movement of large numbers of people is where it was 'in the wrong' - at least legally.

EOKA are already suing Britain for alleged torture between 1955 and 1959. This is the time during which EOKA killed British servicemen, their families, Turkish Cypriots and their own people. There were 105 British servicemen killed and 203 Greek Cypriots. But hey, the poor EOKA dears were upset so certainly they must be compensated even though the South Cyprus government awarded 21,000 EOKA medals as recently as 2005.

waddo - To continue the discussion, why in your opinion was Turkey wrong in launching the second offensive? Think I will have to re-read my history books to try and understand/remind myself why they did this? I thought it was because the ceasefire was constantly being breached and peace talks were getting nowhere? Turkey then pushed on to the "green line" which was already drawn on maps.

Erol - Agree with you about the migration of turkish setllers to he island. For me this was an error of judgement by Turkey, especially so soon after the 1974 conflict. But at the end of the day Greece along with the GC in the RoC are the one's that should revisit history and understand that they brought this situation on themselves. I find it very strange that people in the outside world cannot acknowledge this. One thing Greece has done very well since 1974 is to promote there interpretation of events and work on the rest of the world to convince them that it was Turkey who was the agressor.

As for EOKA - visited the village of Omodhos not far from Limassol a few years ago. Pretty place and on the tourist trail.....there in the centre of the village (Next to the church) is a museum to commemorate the EOKA fighters. I found it all a little over the top and again telling only one biased side to the story.

PoshinDevon wrote: But at the end of the day Greece along with the GC in the RoC are the one's that should revisit history and understand that they brought this situation on themselves. I find it very strange that people in the outside world cannot acknowledge this. One thing Greece has done very well since 1974 is to promote there interpretation of events and work on the rest of the world to convince them that it was Turkey who was the agressor.

There are GC Cypriots who understand the role played by their community, people like Cyprus Mail journalist Loucas Charalambous. However the leaderships of both sides still stick to their propaganda versions of history and this is part of the on going problem. We need more Cypriots like Loucas Charalambous, which is why in my own small I way I strive to do as he does and recognised that no side in this dispute is entirely innocent and just victims and no side entirely guilty either. If we truly want the wrongs done against us and the pain and suffering we experienced as a community to be fairly recognised then we have to start by being prepared to recognise that done by us as well as too us.

Erol, I'm not arguing with you over the fact that harm was done on all sides.... however TC's did not, as far as I know, draw up extermination plans for the entire GC population.

To be quite frank, I think the fact that Turkey stopped where they did and didn't seize the opportunity to prosecute the intervention to its logical conclusion showed remarkable restraint.

So how do you see the decision that Turkey alone should make a financial reparation when they alone took their position as guarantors seriously?

PS I know some GC like the very brave Mr Loucas Charalambous are well aware of his compatriots part in all of this... but the South's Headmasters Association threatened strike action if the ROC Gov. went through with their plan to correctly reflect the GC's part in the troubles.... lest it showed them up to be the propaganda merchants they undoubtedly are! What chance have their younger generations got when teachers take this sort of stance?

PoshinDevon wrote: I find it very strange that people in the outside world cannot acknowledge this. One thing Greece has done very well since 1974 is to promote there interpretation of events and work on the rest of the world to convince them that it was Turkey who was the aggressor.

Posh In Devon

I don't find it strange at all.... the blatant racism of decision making in post war Britain and elsewhere pre-determined that the UK would side with 'Christians' if they were in opposition to Moslems.... just cast your mind back to those days - racism that we ought to find abhorrent today was pretty much par for the course then - we only got fed what info the west wanted us to see and hear. We were brought up to fear that which we did not understand or more alarmingly that which the power brokers didn't want us to understand.

These days (of instant communication and the internet) it's much more difficult for propaganda to survive scrutiny. However I would concede that Turkey and the TRNC are pretty poor performers where PR are concerned... often sounding manic more than earnest. Although again often as a result of the spin put on by the media...

Posh, You may find this interesting: http://www.isn.ethz.ch/Digital-Library/ ... &id=129897

Regardless of who the author is, I feel we must read everything and not be just one sided.

As an excerpt from the above, which again I have traced through and find to be correct in context, try the following for a reason why Turkey was wrong to continue on with the second part of the "Intervention".

It is noteworthy that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, by Resolution 573 of 29 July 1974, affirmed that the Turkish military intervention was the exercise of a right emanating from an international Treaty and the fulfilment of a legal and moral obligation. However, the member states did not maintain this view after the second round of military operations.

This was page 23 but there is a lot more.

Good discussion.

Groucho wrote: .... however TC's did not, as far as I know, draw up extermination plans for the entire GC population.

I do not think the GC drew up such plans in any general sense either. The 'Iphestos files' were the work of a tiny subset of the most extreme GC and were not put into action and nor is it clear that if the attempt had been made to put them into action the ordinary GC population would have gone along with such plans. In many ways the claim that GC in general terms were pursuing a policy of genocide against the TC in the 60's is part of 'our' propaganda version of history and is no more accurate in my view than the claim that they (GC) were simply resisting a TC uprising aimed at the partition of the Island.

Groucho wrote:So how do you see the decision that Turkey alone should make a financial reparation when they alone took their position as guarantors seriously?

I do not think this recent ECHR ruling on 'just satisfaction' re a ruling made 10 years earlier says that Turkey alone is responsible for everything that occurred in Cyprus. It is a ruling about the rights of those GC that went missing as a result of Turkish action in 74 and the effect of that on those GC who remained in the Karpas region from that time.

Groucho wrote:PS I know some GC like the very brave Mr Loucas Charalambous are well aware of his compatriots part in all of this... but the South's Headmasters Association threatened strike action if the ROC Gov. went through with their plan to correctly reflect the GC's part in the troubles.... lest it showed them up to be the propaganda merchants they undoubtedly are! What chance have their younger generations got when teachers take this sort of stance?

Propaganda versions of history dominate both communities. Yes in terms of 'education' 'my side' is currently probably 'better' than the South is in this regard but both leaderships continue to maintain propaganda versions of history in my view.

Waddo - thanks for the link will read later.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/201 ... pr.html#01

What a time to come out with something like this.Or has it been stage managed.

Erol, "I do not think the GC drew up such plans in any general sense either. The 'Iphestos files' were the work of a tiny subset of the most extreme GC and were not put into action"

I accept that they weren't put into action - but why were they not put into action? - Was it because they suddenly realised they were not legal or because Turkey intervened and put an end to their plans? A would-be burglar who gets no opportunity to steal in not an honest man... is he?

If plans were drawn-up albeit not with the knowledge or connivance of the GC majority that still does not mean that they were not the intention of the main power brokers in the GC community... It seems very clear to me that Makarios et al had many what we would now characterise as war crimes in mind... I think you've got a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome by proxy... in that you are now bending over backwards to forgive your communities adversary and blame your saviours. If Turkey had not intervened where do you think the TC community would be now? Shallow graves is my guess....

Groucho wrote:Erol, "I do not think the GC drew up such plans in any general sense either. The 'Iphestos files' were the work of a tiny subset of the most extreme GC and were not put into action"

I accept that they weren't put into action - but why were they not put into action? - Was it because they suddenly realised they were not legal or because Turkey intervened and put an end to their plans? A would-be burglar who gets no opportunity to steal in not an honest man... is he?

If plans were drawn-up albeit not with the knowledge or connivance of the GC majority that still does not mean that they were not the intention of the main power brokers in the GC community... It seems very clear to me that Makarios et al had many what we would now characterise as war crimes in mind... I think you've got a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome by proxy... in that you are now bending over backwards to forgive your communities adversary and blame your saviours. If Turkey had not intervened where do you think the TC community would be now? Shallow graves is my guess....

I bend over backwards to not get sucked into the cycle of absolutist official propaganda version of the Cyprob that have gotten us nowhere in last 60 years. I do so because I can not want and demand that my 'adversaries' do not do this whilst I do. I do not 'blame' Turkey. However I do accept why the 'world powers' have to date refused to recognise the legitimacy of the TRNC given that it was created by force of arms and the forced expulsion of large numbers of people from their homes. To me to characterise the Cyprob as simply one of TC resisting the attempted genocide of them by GC is no more accurate than the claim that in 64 onwards the all GC run RoC government was simply trying to resist an armed insurrection by the TC that sought the partition of the Island. We (Cypriots) have to break out of these one sided propaganda narratives and that is what I seek to do as an individual.

So why do you feel that Turkey should pay compensation and Greece who are equally to blame as guarantors and yet inspired an attempted military coup (I'm taking this as your stance - given that you feel all sides are blame-worthy) are not asked to make reparations too? By the way the UK sitting on their hands does not absolve them of blame either - all it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing....

Groucho wrote:So why do you feel that Turkey should pay compensation and Greece who are equally to blame as guarantors and yet inspired an attempted military coup (I'm taking this as your stance - given that you feel all sides are blame-worthy) are not asked to make reparations too? By the way the UK sitting on their hands does not absolve them of blame either - all it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing....

I do not feel Turkey should pay reparations and Greece should not. I accept that the ECHR has ruled that Turkey is guilty of on-going violations of the rights of specific groups of people (those with missing and those GC living in the Karpas).

I would also add that the ECHR has been and is proving to a mechanism where by TC can force the RoC to address it's violation of their rights and no doubt will continue to be so. It is far from perfect in many ways but it still better than nothing.

So do you not think that giving a judgement only citing Turkey at this stage of the negotiations is a bit crass and could cause bad-faith to be assumed on the Turkish/Turkish Cypriot side?

Because that's what it sounds like to me and that's what it appears to sound like to Turkey..

What we look forward to from the ECHR is the judgement of Solomon and instead we get "Judge Jeffries"