Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

THOUSANDS of British expat pensioners living in Cyprus will lose out on winter fuel allowances from the British government for winter 2015-16 under new legislation to be passed next week, according to a Daily Mail exclusive published yesterday.

Yes, and wait for other nasty tricks from this shower.

They are now threatening to take away the tax allowance for expats with pensions taxed in UK!

Pure evil!

If there were not so many sponging off the Government this would probably not have come about. As well as foreigners, there are thousands of expats claiming benefits whilst abroad, many here and in the South.

Using a UK address no doubt.

Taking tax at source from 2 small pensions & have sent cheque for £482 from state pension ..
Willingly swop tax for heating allowance ..

Of course we must NOT blame the government.....
...not this one, anyway.....

Allways controversial but simply if you don't live in the country you shouldn't get it .
If you don't live in the country you should not pay tax to it either .

If your a foreigner you shouldn't be allowed benefits ,and shouldn't certainly be allowed to claim benefits when your family don't live in UK .

The generation before didn't get winter fuel allowance ,but if it is to be paid what about a certain age ...say for 70 pluses

Get my tin hat now

Kav

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... -allowance

Did you not reply to this then? It is still under consideration at this time - but if they can do it then they will.

Kav, quite agree with you and they can have my personal allowance back provided they stop taxing me on the pensions paid by the Government themselves!!!

Kavenkoy wrote:...if you don't live in the country you shouldn't get it .

If you don't live in the country you should not pay tax to it either.

If you're a foreigner you shouldn't be allowed benefits ,and shouldn't certainly be allowed to claim benefits when your family don't live in [UK]...

That seems a bit harsh!

So, if I understand it correctly, your philosophy is: -

I shouldn't be allowed any benefits from the country to which I paid contributions all of my working life, simply because I happen to live somewhere else at the moment, and I shouldn't be allowed to receive benefits from the country in which I presently reside, because I'm a foreigner.

Keithcaley wrote:

Kavenkoy wrote:...if you don't live in the country you shouldn't get it .

If you don't live in the country you should not pay tax to it either.

If you're a foreigner you shouldn't be allowed benefits ,and shouldn't certainly be allowed to claim benefits when your family don't live in [UK]...

That seems a bit harsh!

So, if I understand it correctly, your philosophy is: -

I shouldn't be allowed any benefits from the country to which I paid contributions all of my working life, simply because I happen to live somewhere else at the moment, and I shouldn't be allowed to receive benefits from the country in which I presently reside, because I'm a foreigner.

In the UK yes .....so you can't opt to live somewhere else and have the benefits from where you used to live.....equally why should you pay tax to it ?
The foreigner thing different because I only see the UK ....and the UK always appears to give more to foreign imports than it does to its own.
Why ?
I see places like NC where you can't work ,don't enjoy local benefits but have attracted a decent crowd that are happy to settle in .....but is that fair ?probably not
Flip side UK ......work all your life and pay taxes all your life and less thought of ..

I domt think there are in real terms anybody that wins unless you are the wealthy and landowners etc .
Should you be allowed to fly back use the NHS ?yes if you have paid for it for all them years yes

It's all a tug of emotions depending on each and everybody's circumstance .....I only have a point of view ,but never going to be a fair one as it's hyperthetical.


I think older people,should pay tax at all when they have paid it all their lives

Kav

Kavenkoy wrote: I think older people,should pay tax at all when they have paid it all their lives
Kav

Was that supposed to read "....should not pay tax at all....." ?
As it is, those over 65 years old got (until 2013/2014) a higher personal allowance than those under 65; however, in 2014/2015, while those under 65 got an increase in personal allowance, over-65's have not. It was reported (but very, very quietly that this higher personal allowance would be phased out by NOT increasing the over-65's rate until the under-65's "caught up" - then, and only then will over-65's allowance begin to be increased again.
That is, of course, unless nobody gets an increase, and/or state euthanasia replaces the state pension.....

Jofra, don't kid yourself! The only reason they gave us over 65's a higher personal allowance was to try to hide the fact that they could take more tax off your other pension when you got your old age (state) pension!

jofra wrote:

Kavenkoy wrote: I think older people,should pay tax at all when they have paid it all their lives
Kav

Was that supposed to read "....should not pay tax at all....." ?
As it is, those over 65 years old got (until 2013/2014) a higher personal allowance than those under 65; however, in 2014/2015, while those under 65 got an increase in personal allowance, over-65's have not. It was reported (but very, very quietly that this higher personal allowance would be phased out by NOT increasing the over-65's rate until the under-65's "caught up" - then, and only then will over-65's allowance begin to be increased again.
That is, of course, unless nobody gets an increase, and/or state euthanasia replaces the state pension.....

Yes should be no tax to be paid when reaching a certain age ......may be a sensible rise in personal tax allowances from current to say 30k .so first 30k per year is tax free,that would take care of the majority and them lucky enough to be earning that amount in later life should still pay taxes ?

Kav

OK so let's reiterate the old adage, "There are only two things you can be certain of in life"

1. You will die

2. You will have to pay tax

I'd like to add a third

3. Paying tax on my UK pensions will be the death of me.

Therefore both 1 & 2 are true and neatly compliment one another.

Having spent a goodly time of my working life on paybills calculations (including tax) and also auditing same, I keep my hand in by ensuring that I pay no more and no less than I am required to.
Now, being in receipt of company and state pension, I know that the two are lumped together, and any personal allowance is set against that lump total. As tax cannot be deducted from the state pension at source, tax is deducted from the company pension by the pension fund managers.
In those cases where company pension became (mandatorially) payable at age 60, that (and most other) income was subject to the under 65 tax allowance; therefore the higher allowance for 65+ did not hide anything - it was merely a concession which reduced (slightly) the tax due.
It should be noted that company/private pension contributions are/were included in personal allowances, so less tax was paid when creating your pension - so, as tax wasn't paid then, it could be considered fair that it be paid now....
This concession is now - as I said - being whittled away by NOT increasing it, but waiting until the under 65 rate has "caught up"....
I.E. just as the winter fuel allowance is being taken away from expats, so are ALL over 65's having something quietly taken away....

What's really annoying to the expat tax payer who has paid into the 'system' the whole of their working lives (in excess of 40 years in most cases) is that the government will quite happily give away our taxes to the total of more than £11 billion in Foreign Aid to countries who, in the case of India, decide to send a rocket to Mars as part of their space programme. India is just one of a number of countries that receive this foreign aid. The cost to the British tax payer for the Expat Winter Fuel Allowance is a mere £22 million compared to India's £280 million rocketship. Doesn't seem quite fair to me - but what does when it comes to government handouts?

Bookmark.

Bookmark, beg to differ!!! What is really annoying to this expat tax payer is that I have to pay income tax to a country that I do not live in and have not lived in for the past 8 years. Were I to attempt to return to that country I would be treated as just another immigrant - apart from if I needed help with accommodation or the NHS, in that case I WOULD be treated as a returning expat and totally ignored for the first six months - never mind the bl**dy Military Covenant which I also fall under. So what is annoying me? I left the UK, I told them I was leaving forever, I have never been back and have no wish to ever return - so why do I still have to pay tax at source????? That is what is annoying me, why can't I pay my income tax to the country in which I live???

Because the UK, which in case you forgot, is a guarantor power, will not talk to, deal with or acknowledge the country in which I live!!! Yet MP's seem to find it easily enough when they want to buy a house - lol.

I beg to differ, they do recognise us when it suites them!! I contacted the Tax department years ago and asked why did I have to pay tax in the UK when I didn't live there or have any property etc. To quote their reply. "We do not have a reciprocal agreement with the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus"!!!

johnerebus wrote:OK so let's reiterate the old adage, "There are only two things you can be certain of in life"

1. You will die

2. You will have to pay tax

I'd like to add a third

3. Paying tax on my UK pensions will be the death of me.

Therefore both 1 & 2 are true and neatly compliment one another.

I think you mean complement - as in, serve to complete, enhance or promote rather than compliment which is a polite expression of praise or admiration...

Pedantry over....

The question I've always posed to this quandary (how will they police this) is will there be any net savings for the tax-payers of the UK? I think not - they will need an expensive bureaucracy to carry out the annual review of all pensioners to decide if they are in the UK for the qualifying period..... then they have to accept that they will get it wrong on occasion and have an appeals bureaucracy to handle that aspect, this bureaucracy will need to housed and pensioned and later made redundant when it turns out it a load of very costly rubbish - and so it will more than likely probably be a net loser for the exchequer because nobody did their sums... which has never stopped them before unfortunately. So let them identify real savings before they make a stupendous decision to employ more civil servants with all that that entails....

I do not get a heating allowance and don't intend applying for one when the time comes, so have no axe to grind, it's simply that I would want common sense to prevail in this respect rather than the politics of envy- again, which seldom happens.

Just a thought - they will not police this because they will not need to! It will be cost free to run anyway, by taking the peoples personal allowance off them they can tax the people more, then use that money to run the system that will not work anyway! That gives them the opportunity to brag about how much money they are saving and they are providing more employment as well - probably will not mention the fact that they will not employ anyone else to run the system, just load the extra work onto staff that are already overworked!

I don't get any heating allowance, I do not live in the UK or a country that requires any heating allowance. I came here for the climate (among other things) in sure knowledge I would require heating for six weeks rather than six months of the year and I made sure that I could afford to provide such heating myself.

I have 17 years of Civil Service background and could not believe the way that successive governments cut back jobs and increased workloads in the last 5 years I worked for them. The government is changing the shape of the pyramid - it is now pointing down instead of up to ensure that there are more people at the top than at the bottom - sad.

waddo wrote:I have 17 years of Civil Service background and could not believe the way that successive governments cut back jobs and increased workloads in the last 5 years I worked for them. The government is changing the shape of the pyramid - it is now pointing down instead of up to ensure that there are more people at the top than at the bottom - sad.

I have 23 years as a civil servant and only when I escaped to the relative safety of the private sector did I realise how much I did for how little recompense in the service....

Hi Waddo, What would the world of words do without editors eh?

[quote="johnerebus"]...What would the world of words do without editors eh?.../quote]

Much the same as the world of boxing would do without 'ead 'itters methinks...

World of words and editors - Ah! But English has ceased being English for many years and is now a simple Lingua Franca - provided you can understand what is said or written there is no real need for exact English anymore. Interestingly, there is a growing ground swell in the educators of the World that Spanish will be the major spoken language by everyone. Hola!! Or as it is yelled out by most Brits in Spain when on holiday "Pollo and Chips", proving that Spanish is already a Lingua Franca as well. Where will it all end and is Microsoft Spell Checker (US Version) really to blame for us all becoming lazy.........

As an old ex military communicator - I would rather stick with Morse (International Language) and leave the rest to the clever people/

.... . .- .-. .... . .- .-.

TRNCVaughan wrote:.... . .- .-. .... . .- .-.

.. / -.. --- -. - / -.- -. --- .-- / .-- .... .- - / -.-- --- ..- .-. . / - .- .-.. -.- .. -. --. / .- -... --- ..- -

See here

As some seemed to have steered the conversation away, I will also do the same by throwing in a light hearted but serious look on the subject of Frozen Pensions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7nnhE48xvw

we gave ours up when we moved here. Thought it was the correct thing to do. Till we moved here and found out all the people who are claiming it. You should only get it when you live in uk.

Dalartokat, I love it, how true!!!!

Dalartokat, Sorry for going off track but your response is excellent - and true as well - lol. That's enough from me, I will now ZKJ2 041000Z & AR to all my readers!! P.S. Look for International Z and Q codes.......

smartiepants wrote:we gave ours up when we moved here. Thought it was the correct thing to do. Till we moved here and found out all the people who are claiming it. You should only get it when you live in uk.

I don't disagree with the sentiment but it's the operation of the exclusion process that I fear will be expensive to operate...

That's why it was given as a universal benefit for those on a pension and qualifying age in the first place.

I'm all for saving money too but not if there is a net loss.

Why shouldn't we get it. I pay tax on State Pension, and three small private pensions (and I mean small) but I don't drive on the UK roads, cross the bridges, my grandchildren don't go to state schools and we have been told we are NOT eligible to use the NHS and have been thrown out of it (how people here get round the system and then boast about it) I have no idea. Hence we help subsidise scroungers and loafers in the UK plus those who are illegal. That is after paying NI for 48 years and 44 years respectively. So why the hell shouldn't we have the Winter Fuel allowance? We deserve it. Those people who come on here and say "you don't deserve it because you jumped ship" should take on board the fact that we are subsidising them as well, and be grateful. But for us, their taxes would be higher than they are now.

The winter fuel allowance was originally only given out in times of extreme cold. It was designed to support pensioners who were literally dying because they were afraid to switch another bar on on the electric fire. We really do not need it here, it became a purchase of the grey vote by Gordon Brown just before the election in 1997 and the money should be saved for those who need it or used in the NHS or to help put the UK finances back in order.

sophie wrote:Why shouldn't we get it. I pay tax on State Pension, and three small private pensions (and I mean small) but I don't drive on the UK roads, cross the bridges, my grandchildren don't go to state schools and we have been told we are NOT eligible to use the NHS and have been thrown out of it (how people here get round the system and then boast about it) I have no idea. Hence we help subsidise scroungers and loafers in the UK plus those who are illegal. That is after paying NI for 48 years and 44 years respectively. So why the hell shouldn't we have the Winter Fuel allowance? We deserve it. Those people who come on here and say "you don't deserve it because you jumped ship" should take on board the fact that we are subsidising them as well, and be grateful. But for us, their taxes would be higher than they are now.

Sophie

Basic State Pension is not taxable so anything you get in addition to bring you over your allowance is taxable, in your case 3 small pensions and any other awards you may have.

Using roads, bridges, school etc. in UK is a choice you made when you left the UK

Using NHS, well those people who are and don't live in the UK, that is on their conscience and it has been going on for years with people giving addresses of relatives etc. or just not telling their GP's they have left.

As for you paying your National Insurance over a period of years, I can categorically tell you that you have never subsidised me and I am definitely not grateful to you.

The UKs problem is easy maths .
Less people paying in,charge them more to cover it .

Free loading immigrants .....work shy UK citizens wanting only benefits and the dodges and not being forced to work for it and not having jobs created for them .
This week the zero hour contract is expected to make its way into some very large retail stores this year ,that isn't right .
Why because we ain't tough enough and we are spineless in politicians far to worried about loosing some vote and ending their own gravy train than anything else .
The MP expenses tells you all ,not to mention the " I will take your speeding ticket points " MP .

Back to subject .........my view is you choose leave you can't expect the benefits it pays .
I fully understand paying in for 40 years etc but that is it you paid in ....as we all have
I disagree that you can't use NHS on return !why should you be excluded when your NI number they use tells them it's paid up in full .

I was in the stumble 4 weeks ago when to guys were arguing regarding the payment being reduced from £250 to £200 ?
They were nearly at blows which was sad ......one calling other penny pincher etc .

That's my two penneth and I paid tax on it lol.
Never used NHS hospital for 25 years ,can't get in doctors if you wanted to anyway so tend to buy at boots .
Don't claim housing benefit ,pay 40% ......but hey oh at least I am alive and can smile as worse things out there rather than fall out and worry

Kav

Found this article dated October 2014 which supercedes the closed report regarding the stealthy plans by our beloved govt to take away the P.A allowance on us poor expats. Lets hope the 'powers to be' accepts this report from CIOT (Chartered Institute of Taxation) and also acts fairly & with equality towards us non resident UK citizens still forced to pay UK Tax. Hope the article link is of interest to all of you.

https://www.accountancylive.com/ciot-re ... -residents

Actually we dont all receive the Winter Fuel Allowance anyway.. I was told by the authorities and it was later confirmed by others on ,I think, Cyprus 44, that one only gets the Winter Fuel Allowance if one was already in receipt of it in the UK before leaving.

As a point of principle I should point out that Cyprus winters may be short but they can be bitter cold, and houses not desisgned for it, and most people suffer more from the cold, and are more prone to diseases if they are uable to keep warm, as they grow older, wherever they live. Also (a a point again made Cyprus 44) most of us have the cost of airconditioning or at least electric fans in summer which would not necessarily be the case in UK, Note that the TRNC Govt. has put of a "Severe weather warning" of Siberian weather for the forthcoming days.

I think the risk tth age related personal allowance is far more serious and likely to cause hardship to more expats. As pointed out above, some of us actually subsidize both the UK tax payers and the NHS because we have paid full contributions without claiming a penny for many years, and dont use most if not all of the services provided by the UK.

As well as the points made by Sophie, we lose the right to vote after 15 years (and therefore the right to appeal to "our" MP, and quite a lot of us are suffering financial loss because we dont have access to the Ombudsmen etc. and other areas where the UK legal system is subsidized by the taxes we pay to the UK

Successive UK Governments have been gradually and stealthily increasing the cost and whittling away the rights of being an expat an - look at the cost of renewing passports - minor perhaps to the more fortunate, but it all adds up if you are struggling on a pension and decreasing savings - whilst reducing the services provided by Embassies and Consulates.

We really do need an organisation which will present a united front to our native Government, not only for concerns specific to the TRNC but liaise with expats in other countries to make representations on behalf of older expats in particular.

e

Here is another report dated October 2014. Dated 9th Oct 2014. This one from ATT (Association of Tax Technicians.

http://www.att.org.uk/Resources/ATT/Doc ... mments.pdf

The winter fuel allowance is to help people(in certain categories) who experience real cold during the winter and so need to increase their heating (with ensuing larger utility bills) within their home to be safe and warm! There is no way in North Cyprus anyone living here is in need of that allowance or have you forgotten or never experienced the dire freezing coldness of winter in some parts of the the UK?

Just as a point of interest (or disinterest), we have found that heating our home here costs more than in U.K. We had a super efficient central heatring system which kept the whole house as any temperature we chose, and it was heat that obeyed us. We paid our fuel bill monthly and had a very efficient oil system in an old thatched cottage. Here we have no proper heating system at all, and manage to keep our living room warm with a gas fire (which is not the healthiest) and an electric blanket at night. When it gets really cold my husband sits in his chair (he has dreadful circulation problems) and wears an outdoor coat, hat, gloves and scarf). So in one sense the heating costs far more than in U.K and one could say for someone who paid taxes for nigh on 50 years,(more really if you count the 20 years he has been retired on top of that) just maybe he deserves any little extra.

Plus consider that the pension never truly keeps up with expenses. Even here in the last ten years prices have quadrupled but pensions have not!

But as I say, just one view point.

One can always find arguments for and against any subject as has been proven at many good debating societies.

Does going to bed in trnc wearing clothes and gloves not count maybe the temp is above freezing but the houses here just leak heat and older folk like me really feel the cold.

Me too deniz. In the old days people also wore nightcaps. Anyone know where I can get one - perhaps I should have pinched Santa's cap! And even that doesn't keep one's nose warm!

Regardless of climate there is a degree of cold (and it is reached in Cyprus in winter) that the human body, particularly in age, cant cope with and stay healthy - or even alive. The allowances are to help UK taxpayers who have fully contribted to Nat Ins/tax. The Government should not restrict them on racist grounds, or because they are squeezing money from vulnerable people just because they are less likely to vote them out.

Did nobody ever watch "Yes Minister" and take lessons on the priorities of politicians?

Older people have more expenses than the young because they are able to do less for themselves. The other thing we dont have access to is Social Services, limited though they may now be in the UK>

We used to get frost on the inside of our windows in the UK. No way is it as cold in Cyprus. As for Yes Minister it was a satirical comedy programme, not fact so lets keep it in the bounds of reality please:-)


I would prefer to see real old people in real hardship in the UK get more that is what it was brought in for originally and then it was only give in times of long spells of extreme cold.

I have lived here for nearly 13years and I have had slight frost on my windows as I live high up I can see my breath upstairs sometimes. Granted it is not for long periods believe me I have tried everything to keep warm.

Like Marion and Deniz1 we also sit in coats to try to keep warm. Once the rains come, our 3 bedroom bungalow has to become a bedsit as our bedrooms have black mould on the ceilings and walls and are too cold and obviously unhealthy to sleep in. We have to move our bed into our living room which is the only dry room and heat that with a gas fire which as Marion says is also not the healthiest. Even doing this, we still can't get the temperatures to anything like we call warm and cosy and so resort to extra clothing and coats. The advantage of course is that we can go to bed earlier than normal to try to keep warmer and watch TV at the same time but still have to wear a coat if sitting up. I told my daughter (in the UK) yesterday that the temperature was 14c to which she replied 'that's positively balmy its 3c here' but I said, yes but that is in the house not outside to which she had no reply!! That is an example of all the folks back home having a very false impression of what life in Cyprus is really like in the winter.

I have only been back to the UK once since I lived here: Once of the reasons I never repeated it was that I suffered terribly from the heat! That is the temperature INSIDE people's houses, shops , banks etc.- in fact I got really fed up with having to take my coat off every time I went ina shop because it was so hot. Far higher than we the majority of premises here

Jonnie: YPM was a comedy programme , but like all really good comedy it was based on reality and served to draw people's attention to real problems , albeit it a bit exaggerated for effect, while relaxing tension by giving them a laugh a the same time. My colleagues in Local Government used to think it brilliant how true to the life of politics and associated officialdom it was, and I believe a lot of politicians and civil servants felt the same way about it and certainly wasnt within the realms of fantasy.

You must be lucky having enough money for either an excetpionally well insulated house and/or enough money to afford adequate safe heating and/or be comparatively young with no health problems.

There are real old people here too, and they do suffer even if you dont notice it; if you want only the worst cases to benefit you should means test rather than base on location. I would actually guess that there have been a few deaths from other causes that were accelerated by cold on another weakness (such as heart attacks) and there have been serious injuries and death from exploding gas cylinders in unsafe locations because people could not afford other means of heating - or had no electricity. So far not as far as I know among the expat population, but if the UK Government keeps on squeezing our finances it will only be a matter of time.

Cypriots have lived here for hundreds of years before any of us, I would love to know if any of them ever got a winter heating allowance from their Government and if not, then how did they keep themselves warm in the winter???? Maybe we have much to learn about living here before we ask for a handout from a country where we no longer live - tin hat on now by the way. Just a thought and not picking on anyone with this thought but surely, it was all our choice to come here to get away from the poor climate of the UK in the first place? Yes, I paid my taxes all my life before you ask. Do I qualify as "old" now that I am well past 67??

Waddo I was thinking the same thing about the Cypriots how do they cope with the cold and they have the same cost of living and don't get the same amount of pension from the government. [/i]

woodspeckie wrote:Waddo I was thinking the same thing about the Cypriots how do they cope with the cold and they have the same cost of living and don't get the same amount of pension from the government. [/i]

How would you know that woodspeckie ..
I personally know someone who is now 67, retired at 38 on a pension half as much again as mine was when I retired at 65 ..