What Is Happening To The UK

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 12:45 pm

How can this be allowed ? Two 16 year old lads driving I presume a stolen car hit two men working on telecommunications. A day later one of the innocent workmen die's at only 27 years old.

The two Scumbags are let out on bail. It is going from bad to worse.

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 1:40 pm

There is another side to the UK you know. I have just come back from an idyllic week there. Picnicking by a suntrenched lake and cricket pitch in the grounds of Holkam Hall. Walking the dog along the mud flats and watching the tide come in so the local yachting fraternity could set forth. Shopping in small independent shops I.e a butcher, a baker, a greengrocer, a fishmonger all of whom treated you with the utmost courtesy even if all you wanted was one lemon and some fennel. It was the customer that counted not how much you had in your purse. On top of that, people's gardens were ablaze with colour and the freshly caught fish, crabs, lobsters and sapphire, freshly picked when the tide was at its lowest, was like nectar. One of the gems of the English coast is where I was and devoid of oiks.

Thankfully it isn't all as you describe J.L.

ardstrawray · Post by **ardstrawray** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 1:45 pm

But it all depends on where you live.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 2:20 pm

Sadly things like this happen all over the world, the UK is no worse than anywhere else, there have always been, and will always be, young stupid drivers with no regard for other road users.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 2:40 pm

Yes I agree, I still adore Cornwall and Mid Wales. But unfortunately , yes these ridiculous laws do apply all across the UK.

IE Kill someone just doing their normal day to day job, and released on bail. That is what I am getting at.

Sorry I do not agree that it goes on all over the world at all. Some countries still have deterrents.

The UK needs to shape up before it is totally ruined. It needs a person in power with some backbone.

terry2366 · Post by **terry2366** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 2:41 pm

You mean like here!!! At least the police do more to stop it in the UK.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 2:47 pm

I do not think you would be out on bail if you had done that here, do you ?

Angiebaby · Post by **Angiebaby** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 3:55 pm

The demise of discipline , and the the lack of punishment and it can only go one way.

Gdrunk · Post by **Gdrunk** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 3:57 pm

Maybe 18+ year olds should be made to do 2 years national service in the UK. Might teach them some discipline & respect

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 4:12 pm

Who would run this National Service?

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 6:38 pm

My son, a very senior officer in the Army, would disagree with the 2 years in the forces suggestion. His attitude would be, why should they, in his case the army, be lumbered with the scum of the earth. Todays forces are very skilled and are not geared up to take on brainless oiks. Times have moved since the days of National Service and ALL branches of the armed forces have consequently moved on.

trooper · Post by **trooper** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 6:55 pm

sophie, first your husband was a national serviceman and was very far from a dozy oik (or whatever you said) and sadly the army in particuular still takes plenty of lads who can hardly write their own name. Of course the army does improve these people but it is a myth that the voluntary armed forces only attracts the best. There was a survey carried out a year or two ago and it concluded that of all the the branches of the armed services the Royal Marines attracted the most qualified recruits......by a big margin......so some sort of national service could only iimprove the intake into the army in particular. I suspect that the armed forces generally don't want any form of conscription for various reasons but I think society as a whole would probably be better for it.

Don't see it happening any time soon.

p.s. guess who is former RM?

Post by **Soner** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 10:11 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:How can this be allowed ? Two 16 year old lads driving I presume a stolen car hit two men working on telecommunications. A day later one of the innocent workmen die's at only 27 years old.

The two Scumbags are let out on bail. It is going from bad to worse.

JL, you say presume they stole a car, there is no mention of speeding either, you do not have/give the full story/picture. Sad that someone has died but accidents do happen and a judge would not let the two off unless it was a genuine accident.

I had a near accident in TRNC about 5 weeks ago, it was getting dark and I saw a little light ahead thinking it was a house or something on the side of the road, on getting closer noticed it is a bulldozer in middle of road, I swerve to miss it and then missed 4 road workmen on other side of road. No signs ahead to warn of roadwork. Now if I hit the 4 men and any of them died, should I have gone to prison? Was not speeding, never had an accident in the 30+ years that I have been driving.

I warned my brother who was coming over to TRNC to be very careful when driving out here on holiday, too many accidents, deaths from bad driving. On first day, yesterday, I lead him to Girne to show him around, then let him follow me back to his hotel in Lapta. He has also never had an accident before, but guess what happens, as I am about to turn off the main road he bangs right into the rear of my car which turns 180 degrees in the middle of the road, and he ends up smashing into the side of a shop. I had 3 of his little children in my car and he had one and 2 other passengers. He was not speeding, just lost concentration when fiddling with the radio. Luckily nobody was hurt, why? Every one of us had our seat belts on. An accident, and they do happen. Again, if someone did die then would it be fair to imprison?

Police on scene immediately, and I must say I was very impressed with their professionalism and the kind helpful spirit of all the people around that helped to take the children out of the cars and try to calm all, shop keeper even came out with water and tissues even though her shop had been damaged.

Yes, there are idiots that steal cars and speed, but when there is an accident then it is no good to simply speculate.

I used to see cars smashed in middle of roads out here and automatically think "what idiots" - Now, I would wonder why it had happened, rather than assume it was idiots speeding - as said, accidents do happen.

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Thu 23 Jul 2015 11:39 pm

Soner at 16 you are not allowed to drive on the uk roads theory test cannot be booked until you are 17
article on crash details
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015 ... ror-crash/

School holidays and children

Post by **Soner** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 4:43 am

Silly me, I did not pick up on that, am sure they will not be let off lightly even though given bail.
Thanks for the full story.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 7:01 am

wanderer wrote:...School holidays and children

...or as Johnny Lee would have it - 'Scumbags!'...

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 7:13 am

Thank You Wanderer for being having the skills to post this, I wanted to but did not know how.It happened in an area near to where I used to live and therefore I saw it in the local paper and followed the story.

I think If I wrote a topic stating Black is not white certain people would try to disagree with me. Why do people dislike the truth so much ?.

Yes Kieth scumbags or worse. I wander how people would feel if their loved one had gone to his normal daily work and this had happened.

We need discipline from schools especially and also parents. When I got whacked either by my parents or a teacher it it hurt and I made sure I towed the line.

But I fear like so many other things , if its not happening to me or on my doorstep type of attitude then its all OK. But its not!

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 7:16 am

Soner sorry to disagree. But this is the UK so they more than likely will be let off lightly. At one time offenders were awarded with holidays and days out at Silverstone playing with racing cars. Does this still happen?

Lottidotti · Post by **Lottidotti** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 8:28 am

The Magistrates courts are to blame for letting thugs off lightly.What you have to remember is that the Magistrates are
Ordinary members of the public who have volunteered to become Magistrates.Most,but not all are very gullible to the stories they are told by defendants who turn up with their angelic faces,their paid for by the tax payer solicitor and their newly acquired stolen clothes.
What the Government needs to do is insist that all Magistrates every year spend a month with the Ambulance staff on night duties,with hospital staff,again during busy times and also with the Police especially at weekends.That way the Magistrates might actually learn and have an understanding how the real world works and that it doesn't start at 10 am with an adjournment at 11.15 then lunch 12.45 until 2pm finishing the day at 3.30pm.
When they have seen first hand how our emergency services staff are treated they might just might feel sorry for those workers rather than the thugs who continually pull the wool over their ( The Magistrates eyes ).

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 8:41 am

Soner:

'I had a near accident in TRNC about 5 weeks ago, it was getting dark and I saw a little light ahead thinking it was a house or something on the side of the road, on getting closer noticed it is a bulldozer in middle of road, I swerve to miss it and then missed 4 road workmen on other side of road. No signs ahead to warn of roadwork. Now if I hit the 4 men and any of them died, should I have gone to prison? Was not speeding, never had an accident in the 30+ years that I have been driving.'

No you should not have gone to prison but you would have, and for a very long time, this happened to a man, he hit two boys who had stolen a bike, no lights, etc and they were both killed, he had not been speeding, drinking or breaking any laws, he was forced to plead guilty and was deported after spends months and months in prison.

AngelGirl · Post by **AngelGirl** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 8:59 am

Lottidotti, get over the 'Magistrate' thing! Magistrates have to work within guidelines. Criminal cases that are beyond a Magistrates Courts sentencing powers will be sent to a Crown Court with Judge and jury! Do you think a jury of ordinary people are any better than a panel of ordinary Magistrates to make decisions? If you think you could make a difference and live in the UK, why don't you volunteer to become a Magistrate?

topten · Post by **topten** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 9:00 am

I have been a passenger in a car being driven in the TRNC by a middle aged TC and he actually swerved around someone walking on a zebra crossing and ignoring road closed signs. But I do agree that teenage troubles are the product of the stupid bloody "I presume" human rights pillocks that took away teachers rights to discipline unruly kids. I saw in the paper an article about kids getting sun burnt whilst on a school trip and parents tried to blame the teachers, this after the school sent letters to warn parents about the dangers. And my point is because of stupid bloody laws teachers are not allowed to even apply sun cream. I started a post entitled "To slap or not" because I believe the problems with SOME of the youth today is the lack of respect and discipline in schools and to some degree home.

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 9:01 am

'Our babies are devastated because daddy is gone': Heartbreaking tribute to Oldbury telecoms worker, 27, killed a week after he wed
A telecoms engineer who died after he was hit by a car was a father who had got married just a week earlier, his family have revealed.

Matthew Harding, a 27-year-old Virgin Media worker from Oldbury was working on a communications box at the junction of Jack Holden Avenue and Robert Wynd in Coseley with a colleague, when both were hit by a grey Citroen Picasso after it careered into them just before midday on Monday.

Matthew Harding
Matthew Harding
His wife Danielle Harding, who was by his side when he died in hospital, said: “We are well and truly heartbroken. I don't know how we're all going to go on without you.

"Our babies are devastated because daddy is gone. There is no man out there who could or ever would be as amazing, caring and loving as you.

“You truly wore your heart on your sleeve babes. I'm so honestly grateful I had the pleasure of knowing you and being your wife. You really made us whole. Our worlds have been completely broken at this great loss.

"Our lives will never be the same. Me and the boys miss you like crazy and love you like you'll never believe - you were our hero. Rest in peace babes, until we meet again.”

Two boys, both aged 16, were arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving and have been released on police bail pending further enquiries.

Lottidotti · Post by **Lottidotti** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 9:26 am

Angelgirl,not all criminal cases are referred to the Crown Courts it's the ones the Magistrates deal with I am referring to.
And in relation to jurors being a better than a panel of Magistrates then yes in most of cases I think they are,that's why they are trusted to make a descision on serious cases.

Angiebaby · Post by **Angiebaby** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 10:19 am

How Heartbreaking, we did not go around stealing cars and killing people in our Summer Break. I think the point Johnnie was highlighting was . Released On Bail.

AngelGirl · Post by **AngelGirl** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 11:45 am

Lottidotti, maybe then campaign to change the whole legal system instead of knocking the 23,000 'ordinary' volunteers who give up their time to their local community for a thankless task. Why not blame the people that caused the accident, injuries and a death of a young man? I am sure now a death has occurred, the boy/boys concerned may have further serious charges put to them.

Lottidotti · Post by **Lottidotti** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 12:58 pm

Angelgirl,There is no need for anyone to campaign to change the whole legal system in the UK,as I would think most people think it works in the main very well.
However I think Magistrates would benefit from seeing and being there when the emergency services are involved in situations where most people would run away.That way when the same defendants appear time and time again in the same courtroom the sentance would reflect the crime,of course within the guidelines.
Assaulting and spitting at Nurses,Doctors,Ambulance staff,Police officers or in fact any other person out to help others should attract the most serious sentance and not be shrugged off as if it's part of their job.
In relation to blaming the youths I will wait until they have been found guilty first.

AngelGirl · Post by **AngelGirl** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 1:29 pm

LottiDotti, I am pleased you think the UK legal system works well. Being in an emergency situation other than the required medical services would be impractical and impossible to organise Magistrates to attend. I would like to think that most people including Magistrates are aware of abuse that can take place against hospital staff, police and other service staff.

jazzdolly · Post by **jazzdolly** » Fri 24 Jul 2015 7:57 pm

Let's face it folks, those of us who live in the TRNC can remember the beautiful green landscapes, the manners and social awareness as well as understanding of personal space individuals posess in the UK!!!
These things make the UK desirable to us.
We choose to forget the lack of morality caused by disfunctional community support for people growing up there.

Those of us who live in the UK can appreciate the sunshine, beautiful mountains and sea, as well as the friendliness and helpfulness and support of the community in TRNC.
We choose to forget the stray dogs, dangerous roads and general ignorance of basic 21st century necessities such as recycling!

The grass will always be greener elsewhere.
There will always be irresponsible young men in any nationality.

I choose to bring my children up in TRNC... Not because the roads are safe... Not because people don't get run over just doing their job, But because there is a knowledge of who young men are, where they come from and that their community will all know when they cock up.
That in itself is a deterrent .

Community is deteriorating in the UK. Therein lies the problem.

johnerebus · Post by **johnerebus** » Sat 25 Jul 2015 6:01 am

I remember my dad coming home after having witnessed Teddy boys fighting on a tram in London more than 60 years ago. He said, "They were using chains to belt one another. What's wrong with the today's World? We used our fists in my day."

'His day' would have been in in the 1920s. Hmnnn? How was it in his dad's day his grandfather's and his great grandfather's etc?

Seems nuffink as changed with some yoofs den innit. And so ad infinitum. Ahhh the good old days eh?

Post by **Soner** » Sat 25 Jul 2015 7:57 am

They had duels, much more civilised and organised.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sat 25 Jul 2015 8:06 am

Soner wrote:They had duels, much more civilised and organised.

Actually, I think that officially, they were called 'Football Matches'

johnerebus · Post by **johnerebus** » Sat 25 Jul 2015 9:24 am

Replying to my own comment about the good old days the yoofs way back when were fighting in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet with swords. The Montagues and Capulets were the offenders who later became The Jets and The Sharks in West Side Story. In West Side Story swords become knives so weapons were downsizing and less dangerous. Ahh the good ol days!

Mind you Romeo and Juliet is set in Venice and The Jets and Sharks were originally from Puerto Rica - immigrants - so only foreign yoofs were a danger.

Our yoof in England's Green and Pleasant Land were Angels of Innocence. They helped the elderly across muddy roads keeping them from being trampled by charging horses and never claimed benefits as the majority did an honest day's work as farm labourers. Ahhh the good ol days.

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Sat 25 Jul 2015 5:10 pm

Verona and Mantua, rather than Venice....

johnerebus · Post by **johnerebus** » Sun 26 Jul 2015 6:57 am

Correct Joffra - well spotted. Got the location confused with Othello the Moor of Venice.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sun 26 Jul 2015 7:36 pm

Actually although the first act of Othello by Shakespeare is set in Venice the rest of the play takes place in "A seaport in Cyprus"!

The seaport isnt named but is generally assumed to be Famagusta (Gazimağusa) and "Othello's tower" is there to prove it!

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sun 26 Jul 2015 8:07 pm

back on topic, I recommend reading, watching or listening to "Rumpole of the Bailey"! Under British Law a person is deemed "innocent until proved (beyond reasonable doubt) guilty in the Court relevant to the crime concerned, and it is only after a guilty verdict that sentence is passed and commenced. Bail is not therefore part of the eventual punishment, it is simply one way of ensuring that the accused turns up in Court when required. People are held in custody when the Police have persuaded the relevant magistrate that it would not be adequate and there is a risk tha the accused might reoffend or escape Court proceedings (eg. flee the country). The fact that these boys have been allowed bail does not necessarily mean that if proved guilty they will eventually escape witha light sentence, it simply saves Police and Prison resources and hence cost to the British taxpayer !

What is often criticised about British Law is the length of time between the crime and sentence being passed - although sometimes thisis necessary . Note that in this case the Police are still collecting evidence and looking for witnesses which is necessary to ensure justice is done.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sun 26 Jul 2015 8:56 pm

Ragged Robin - a most excellent, informative post!

As far removed from the tone of the first post as it is possible to get.

Well done!

TheSaints · Post by **TheSaints** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 2:10 am

topten · Post by **topten** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 5:43 am

Ragged Robin wrote:back on topic, I recommend reading, watching or listening to "Rumpole of the Bailey"! Under British Law a person is deemed "innocent until proved (beyond reasonable doubt) guilty in the Court relevant to the crime concerned, and it is only after a guilty verdict that sentence is passed and commenced. Bail is not therefore part of the eventual punishment, it is simply one way of ensuring that the accused turns up in Court when required. People are held in custody when the Police have persuaded the relevant magistrate that it would not be adequate and there is a risk tha the accused might reoffend or escape Court proceedings (eg. flee the country). The fact that these boys have been allowed bail does not necessarily mean that if proved guilty they will eventually escape witha light sentence, it simply saves Police and Prison resources and hence cost to the British taxpayer !

What is often criticised about British Law is the length of time between the crime and sentence being passed - although sometimes thisis necessary . Note that in this case the Police are still collecting evidence and looking for witnesses which is necessary to ensure justice is done.

I think everyone's missing the point, if we teach our kids in school from an early age that to do wrong is punishable, and if you are caught doing wrong expect to be punished. Kids are like monkeys if left to please themselves they will cause havoc, but if they know that to do naughty things will result in them getting slapped legs or the cane " in school " it has and will create respect. I think that in todays youth culture SOME kids use their police record like a badge.

mikelapta · Post by **mikelapta** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 6:45 am

And as guidance to the young kids of today,we have a Senior Peer fılmed taking drugs and cavorting with prostitutes....God help our kids if the Chairman of Privileges Committee is doing this.
BBC News this am)

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 9:03 am

In my eyes if you steal a car and drive recklessly under age and kill an innocent person you are guilty.

If they had not committed that crime then the guy would still be alive. Very simple really.

You can pretty it up all you like those really are the facts.

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 9:36 am

Johnny Lee wrote:In my eyes if you steal a car and drive recklessly under age and kill an innocent person you are guilty.

I do not think anyone disagree with this , though guilty of what is a question. Manslaughter ? Murder ? Dangerous driving ?

I think the point that some are making here is that the two teenagers who have been arrested and granted bail have been done so on suspicion of having committed an offence. We do not yet know that they actually committed it (and its not clear to me how both can be guilty in that presumably even if they are the people in the car at the time of the crash only one of them would have actually been driving ?). Until it is proven via due process that one or both of them actually committed an offence and what that offence is and what punishment is passed down for committing it, is it not a bit premature to be condemning how such things are dealt with in the UK ?

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 2:33 pm

Thank you Keith ! Praise from you is praise indeed! And Erol for expanding on my thoughts.

So far the report only says the boys are "suspected" , No doubt the Police will be looking for evidence (including forensic such as fingerprints) to establish which , if either, of the boys was actually driving the car at the time of the accident, and deciding what , if any, crimes to arrest them for (driving without licence and insurance also spring to mind) and how they got hold of it in the first place

Meanwhile they are subject to bail to ensure they will be available for trial if and when the correct procedures have taken place. To demand punishment before they have been proved guilty is a travesty of justice.

With regard to Mike's post : this is rather an extreme case . I doubt teenage boys look to Peers of the Realm as role models! More likely sportsmen and media stars who demonstrate a lifestyle of fast living with expensive cars etc. Maybe we should all think about the example we are setting youth with our materialistic and uncaring society.

Angiebaby · Post by **Angiebaby** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 4:28 pm

No doubt then from some of the comments made you would feel so lenient if it was your loved one who had been taken away in the prime of life. it seems obvious from the report who was driving and what happened.Two louts who should not have been in a automobile at age 16 in the UK killed some one. Illegally. Now I suppose 100 of thousands of pounds will be wasted on their more than likely pathetic sentences.

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 5:32 pm

Angiebaby wrote:No doubt then from some of the comments made you would feel so lenient if it was your loved one who had been taken away in the prime of life.

I do not see anyone suggesting that the person who was driving the car should be treated leniently ? All I see is some suggesting that justice actually requires a proper investigation and due process.

Angiebaby wrote: it seems obvious from the report who was driving and what happened.Two louts who should not have been in a automobile at age 16 in the UK killed some one. Illegally. Now I suppose 100 of thousands of pounds will be wasted on their more than likely pathetic sentences.

Even accepting that it is 'obvious' that the two teenagers currently on bail were the ones driving the car (which to me is not 'obvious'), does it matter which one was driving and which was a passenger ? Or do you consider them both equally guilty ? If so of what ?

I really do not understand what it is you think should have happened that has not so far ? Is it just that you think they should have been held on remand rather than given bail ? Or are you suggesting that there should be no need for any form of trial in cases like these and the police should just be able to decide themselves that these teenagers are guilty and lock them up and decide how long for ?

fatouche · Post by **fatouche** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 5:47 pm

What has happened to the foundation stone of the British justice system that an individual is innocent until proved guilty (beyond all reasonable doubt) ?

The only reason for remanding an individual in custody is if there is a risk of him not attending his trial. It is not intended as punishment, since guilt cannot be established until a guilty plea is entered or the defendant has been found guilty at the end of a trial. If guilt is established, any time spent on remand will count as double any time spent in custody after conviction.

And before anyone says I'm a bleeding heart, I was an officer in the Met police and worked in the CPS for a considerable number of years.

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 5:55 pm

Too many "bleeding heart" liberals running the country, that's why we have a culture of no respect for people, property and possessions.

Discipline is no longer a recognised lesson and we, as a country are the worst for it.

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 6:01 pm

jacob wrote:Too many "bleeding heart" liberals running the country, ....

Wanting there to be a 'due process' in a case like this is to be a 'bleeding heart liberal' ? You think Theresa May is a 'bleeding heart liberal' ?

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Mon 27 Jul 2015 6:24 pm

Boris doesn't think she is a bleeding heart liberal as she took stopped him having a water pistol(cannon)

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