Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

I am sure I'm not alone in spotting loads of Greek Cyps driving around the North recently.
Only this morning I counted ten GC reg vehicles between Alsancak and Karsiyaka. I remember this sort of nonsense years ago when they came over checking out various properties that apparently were once owned by their famiies. That was of course around the time of the great referendum. They got nowhere then despite their efforts to intimidate locals and ex pats. Hate to say it Nikkos old chap but I think it may be the same this time too.

I hope no-one will be silly enough to let these people onto their property - we saw quite a few when living in our old Ansancak house about the time of the referendum. I found that a few stern words reinforced by a pick handle works wonders.

they are inspecting what they think they will get back.they think a solution is coming and they r already counting and adding to there list of prpoerties and bank accounts....
lets hope there is no solution...for the turks sake

johnny1 wrote:lets hope there is no solution...for the turks sake

For the 'turks' sake ? You mean those living in Istanbul or elsewhere on mainland Turkey ? Or do you mean for the Turkish Cypriots sake ? Or do you see no difference between Turkish Cypriots and Turks ?

Bit touchy there Erol. I'm sure he meant Turkish Cypriots, but of course he should have said so!

Maybe they are just coming over now to see what the North is all about? It is quite possible that a lot of the GC's have never been across the Green Line as their Government has always frowned upon it, now with the "settlement" further forward than ever they have a good excuse to come and visit us up here. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt!!! After all a lot of TC cars are to be found in the South everyday and many of them are looking at old ancestral lands and houses too.

Well, without wishing to sound like a cynic, yep have noticed quite a few strange things over the past couple of weeks. Yesterday, a small GC car with 4 elderly ladies in, trying to negotiate Ozankoy Village, this morning in Lapta, posh GC car with young men having photo taken by the little church by Chateau Lambousa.....and earlier in the week went for a drive around the coast by Sadrazamkoy Kayalar.....2 new beach restaurants opened down there, a few water sports and car park filled with GC cars......they are moving in lol. Don't panic Mr Mainwaring.....and don't tell them your name Pike!

whats ur problem erol? are you turkish cypriot?then i prefer the mainland turks

some of you on here are so quick to send nasty replies......

johnny1 wrote:whats ur problem erol? are you turkish cypriot?then i prefer the mainland turks

Actually I am half Cypriot. If after that you want more detail as to what kind of Cypriot I am, then I would identify myself as a Turkish Cypriot.

My 'problem' is that the casual inference that there is no difference between a Turkish Cypriot and a Turk, as seemed to be implied by your post, is not a matter of 'semantics'. The issue of identity in Cyprus, of who we are and who we consider ourselves to be is at the core of the pain and suffering that 100's of thousands of Cypriots have suffered since the onset of the end of British rule in Cyprus. Cypriots have killed Cypriots over such issues, TC have killed TC over this issue and GC have killed GC over this issue and GC and TC have killed each other over this issue, not in 'ancient history' but in living memory. Cyprus still weeps today from the wounds caused by this issue. So to you a casual reference to 'Turks' when apparently you might mean Turkish Cypriots may be of little or no consequence, such that you take offence when asked for clarification over such a comment. To me, as a Cypriot, however it is not something of little consequence or import I am afraid.

Good Topic, it is getting to be more and more cars each day, I don't think the Turk. Cyps no what they are letting their selves in for.
Having spent a lot of time in Greece and the Islands the hatred was blatant, towards the Turkish people , almost aggressive. men women and children.

In over 8 years of living here I can honestly say I have only seen this once ,from a Taxi driver a few years back.

If you want a real eye opener, drive out a few Klmts. passed Horseshoe bay to the two previously unspoiled beaches that were mainly Turks and Turk Cyps at weekends now taken over by Greek Tavernas and water sports. Also the third beautiful small beach between those two, with a large structure an a awning and the steps blocked by their cars. This was beautiful small sandy private beach with clean access to the sea. ( you need a 4x4 for this one.)

Also a question, maybe Erol will know the answer to this, who gets the revenue, ie. taxes etc. who grants licences etc. because I saw a few bills on the beach and they were in Greek.

erol
what i meant was for all turkish and turkish cypriot people.are the turkish from the mainland not people too?

erol for your infomation,i am living in the south...if you think that the greeks and greek cypriots are real friends then you are in for a shock.each other sees the other in a different way....those in north i think are thinking that those in south really want to live in peace and find a solution for that while those in the south have only one thing on there mind.....and they are already planning on what they want to do in the north.

Johnny Lee wrote:Also a question, maybe Erol will know the answer to this, who gets the revenue, ie. taxes etc. who grants licences etc. because I saw a few bills on the beach and they were in Greek.

In theory the use of and income from such use of Turkish Cypriot property and land abandoned in the South comes under the control of the "Guardian of Turkish Cypriot properties" department which is under the interior ministry of the RoC. In theory monies received from such use are held in 'trust' to be disbursed back to pre 74 TC owners post a settlement. In theory private business use of land in such a category can only involve 'temporary structures'. This is all the 'theory'. As in all things in Cyprus, north and south alike, the law as written and the practice 'on the ground' are not always in line with each other.

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/21/hasik ... rdianship/

On another thread I mentioned this but I don't know why you are surprised. Over 7 years ago we used to drive up towards where the Charcoal and Metal works were, and on a Sunday lunch time we would be the only people not speaking Greek - after all the border was only a few Km away. There were Greeks from down South, there were Greeks from Greece and there were Greeks from the USA. Nothing really changes.

johnny1 wrote:erol for your infomation,i am living in the south...if you think that the greeks and greek cypriots are real friends then you are in for a shock.each other sees the other in a different way....those in north i think are thinking that those in south really want to live in peace and find a solution for that while those in the south have only one thing on there mind.....and they are already planning on what they want to do in the north.

Well I have REAL GC friends. People I would trust with my and my families safety. The fact is there are those north and south who want to see a continuation of division and hatred and animosity based on our differences, just as there those north and south who want a better future than the past we have had to date, and that seeks a plural Cyprus based on mutual respect and a unity based on a commonality as Cypriots despite our other differences. For those kinds of Cypriots, which I consider myself to be one, the casual interchange of Greek with Greek Cypriot and Turk with Turkish Cypriot, from someone who presumably is not Cypriot themselves, is 'lazy', 'disrespectful' and offensive. For the other kind of Cypriot they probably welcome such laziness.

erol, its people like you that worry most of us. Get real for christ's sake.

Have to agree with the original post re number of GC cars seen in the last couple of weeks. Plenty of them around and would not have thought much of it except that there are a fair few on weekdays as opposed to weekends.

Although it will be for the turkish cypriots to decide their future if there is any sort of referendum, I would hope they think very carefully not only about the future but also what has happened in the past. The lure of the EU is strong and will have its benefits, but will also have a massive impact and they may not welcome what will come with membership.

41 years of peace and stability is not something to just give away.

If anyone thinks that if a solution is found everything will be roses and champagne then take a read of some of the three hundred odd comments at the bottom of this ....

http://cyprus-mail.com/2015/08/18/expat ... -property/

trooper wrote:erol, its people like you that worry most of us. Get real for christ's sake.

Sorry but just who exactly is this 'us' that you refer to ? On who's behalf are you speaking if not just your own and under what 'authority' do you do so ?

1. I have known North Americans and Australians object to being referred to as English and assumed to have the same views, aspirations and objectives because they have similar ethnic backgrounds and speak (more or less!) the same language. They are entitled to be paid the respect of being a different, if connected, people. So have Turks and Turkish Cypriots. And for that matter, Greeks and Greek Cypriots.

2. I lived and worked in Limassol and Episkopi in the 1960s, and had Greek and Turkish Cypriots friends who were also friends to each other. and good people generally. I also know Turkish Cypriots who share Erol's hopes for an eventual reconciliation.

However even the nicest of the Greek Cypriots (and some are very nice despite the vitriol that is appearing on this Board by British) they had and still have reservations (sometimes not consciously recognised even by themselves) about Turks and Turkish Cypriots as a result of past history and the indoctrination by their Church and State starting as children at school. It will take more than one generation to overcome this and needs to be approached yavaş , yavaş one stage at a time. Even more I suspect the motives of the European Union : I think membership has been harmful to my birth country (England) and to the ordinary people of Greece and South Cyprus. I am afraid the Turkish Cypriots are letting the commendable wish to be reconciled with their GC "cousins" and the propaganda of the EU blind them to the realities of how they will be treated and what they will lose by EU membership: as another poster pointed out for a start they will share in the debt owed to the EU by the Greek Cypriots and subject to austerity measures to help meet it.

what is ero; that you dont understand that trooper wrote?i think its very clear to the rest of us.
to me it is clear that you are one of those cypriots that think they are superior than the rest.get a life !

God help us if we become part of the EU. One of the reasons I left the UK was to get away from all the crap PC and stupid rules. That was 10 years ago ,and it was nothing like now.IMO most of the businesses would be closed down and restaurants, if Health & Safety and Environmental Health started over here.!!!!

PoshinDevon wrote:.

41 years of peace and stability is not something to just give away.

Well said, Posh. The problem is a lot of TCs see it as 40 years of struggle and hardship. But they have done it albeit with a little bit of help from their friends (Turkey) and have an workable independent state. Ok far from perfect, in only 40 years! Anyway which state is? Not the UK for a start! They should look on it as negotiating from strength - look at us and see what we can do, not giving concessions or being mislead by some EuroMP looking for a Peace Prize!

johnny1 wrote:what is ero; that you dont understand that trooper wrote?i think its very clear to the rest of us.

It may be clear to you (singular) and all the others that make up the 'us' you yourself refer to but it is far from clear to me who trooper's [note previously I had the wrong forum user name here - have now corrected it. Sorry to the person I wrongly put here originally] us or yours refers to. To me it sounds like you are some kind of spokesperson for some group or other. Maybe you just mean 'others who think like I do' when you say us, but I guess that does not have quite the same impact as the plain 'us' ?

johnny1 wrote:to me it is clear that you are one of those cypriots that think they are superior than the rest.get a life !

If expressing my personal views on behalf of no one but myself as clear as I am able on this forum, leads you to conclude that I must be "one of those cypriots that think they are superior than the rest" then so be it. Though as half Cypriot and half British you could just as well have said " it is clear that you are one of those Brits that think they are superior than the rest".

Thanks you for the suggestion that I get a life. I will investigate what my options are to obtain such.

So a solution is in sight and GC's are coming over to inspect their properties and maybe deciding how they can take the foreigners to the cleaners.
In the meantime, the Ministry of Internal Affairs in the South of Cyprus has assigned the ownership of historic Turkish Cypriot buildings in Paphos to the municipality, so they can be demolished and the area be used as a car park and green area. Mmmmm

erol wrote:

johnny1 wrote:what is ero; that you dont understand that trooper wrote?i think its very clear to the rest of us.

It may be clear to you (singular) and all the others that make up the 'us' you yourself refer to but it is far from clear to me who turtle's us or yours refers to. To me it sounds like you are some kind of spokesperson for some group or other. Maybe you just mean 'others who think like I do' when you say us, but I guess that does not have quite the same impact as the plain 'us' ?

johnny1 wrote:to me it is clear that you are one of those cypriots that think they are superior than the rest.get a life !

If expressing my personal views on behalf of no one but myself as clear as I am able on this forum, leads you to conclude that I must be "one of those cypriots that think they are superior than the rest" then so be it. Though as half Cypriot and half British you could just as well have said " it is clear that you are one of those Brits that think they are superior than the rest".

Thanks you for the suggestion that I get a life. I will investigate what my options are to obtain such.

Erol,

The distinctions you make set Turkish Cypriots out as people who won't revel in the freedoms EU membership will bestow on non-Cypriot EU citizens... You are keen to establish how Turkish Cypriots differ from mainland Turks but that will be a drop in the ocean from how you'll feel when all other EU nation's citizens will automatically have rights here....

I sympathise that you and friends might feel that your Cypriot identity is somewhat swamped by Turks - but do you think it will get better under EU regs?

come on erol dont sulk
i dont have anything against any people...
you are turkish british cypriot?
i am greek and british cypriot.....
but when you mentioned to whome i was referring..the turkish cypriots or turkish mainlanders...does it matter?
for me the turkish from the mainland are one of the kindest people ive ever met...whats going to happen to them if you guys except to be governed and ruled by the south?are they going to be kicked out of the houses and kicked out of the country because they did nothing wrong?

Groucho wrote: The distinctions you make set Turkish Cypriots out as people who won't revel in the freedoms EU membership will bestow on non-Cypriot EU citizens... You are keen to establish how Turkish Cypriots differ from mainland Turks but that will be a drop in the ocean from how you'll feel when all other EU nation's citizens will automatically have rights here....

I sympathise that you and friends might feel that your Cypriot identity is somewhat swamped by Turks - but do you think it will get better under EU regs?

I do not fear that TC identity and culture will be 'swamped' either by Turkish mainlanders as we are today or by EU citizens post any settlement, any more that I fear British identity and culture is threatened by immigration in the UK. I have faith and belief in the strength of Cypriot culture and within that TC culture to endure, withstand, adapt and evolve as it has done since the Ottomans first arrived in Cyprus. On a forum like this one many years ago in a thread about what (ex pats) missed most from the UK living in Cyprus, I answered, sincerely and honestly, cultural diversity. I do have concerns about the degree of of ongoing dependence the TC community has on Turkey, politically, economically and militarily but not because I fear TC culture being 'swamped' but because I fear what an ongoing 'dependency culture' does to those living under it. I want there to be less discrimination in (north) Cyprus between those who are Cypriot and those who are not. I would welcome EU norms for EU citizens here, like not having to go through the ridiculous annual residency procedures and not having to gain 'permission to purchase' when buying property (with all the inherent risks that puts people at as a result). I would welcome EU citizens living here having the right to vote and stand in local elections. I would welcome all these changes with or without a solution but they all come as part and parcel of a solution and that is in part why I support attempts to broker a fair and reasonable settlement.

Erol,
Please don't involve me in your petty squabblings i have only posted comments from an article and never mentioned you in that post ?

Just out of curiosity, I've been playing with the voting figures from the 2004 referendum (as per Wikipedia). According to my maths and Excel, and disregarding "invalid/blank votes" - if the GC votes were reversed (75.83% yes instead of no) but the TC vote was 100% no - the final overall vote would have been 58.82% yes, and 41.18% no.
In this model, with a 100% TC "No" vote, the GC "Yes" vote would have had to change by 50,000 votes (1 in 6 !) to provide a 50.55% result in favour with TC wishes.

Therefore, does not any referendum depend completely on whether the GC view changes sufficiently - and if it does - what would be the reason? Would it be to TC benefit - or not?

johnny1 wrote:come on erol dont sulk

Who says I am sulking ? Would that just be you saying that or this wider nebulous 'us' perhaps. For the record I am not sulking. I am doing what I always do on forums like thse, trying to express myself as clearly as I can and striving to argue the point and not the person.

johnny1 wrote:you are turkish british cypriot?

It is really not that complicated. My father was Cypriot (who's first language was Turkish) and my mother is English. I hold dual nationality by birth right, both Cypriot and British. What I am not is Turkish. Not in any legal sense and not in my own mind. I say that not because I have anything against people who are Turkish, far from it. I say it because it is simply not accurate or true in any sense. My father was born and lived in Cyprus, not Turkey, up until the point he emigrated to the UK. My family (dead ancestors and current live ones) live and work, almost entirely, in Cyprus and not Turkey. I have visited the place of my fathers birth, Cyprus, many many times from the age of 4 or so onwards. I now live in Cyprus, not Turkey and have done for the last 12 years or so. I have visited Turkey only twice in my life and have visited, Spain and France and Las Vegas more times that Turkey.

johnny1 wrote:but when you mentioned to whome i was referring..the turkish cypriots or turkish mainlanders...does it matter?

I asked the question because I was seeking to understand who it was that you hoped there was no solution for. Was it Turkish mainlander who live and work in Turkey and have no connection to Cyprus ? Was it what is generally referred to as 'Turkish settlers' living in Cyprus ? Was it Turkish Cypriots ? If you meant all of these then you could have just said so but it was not clear, to me at least, which of these categories you did mean from what you posted and as I have already explained, this issue of 'who we are' (Cypriots) is not one of mere semantics and nit picking. It is an issue over which we have fought and killed each other over.

johnny1 wrote:for me the turkish from the mainland are one of the kindest people ive ever met...whats going to happen to them if you guys except to be governed and ruled by the south?are they going to be kicked out of the houses and kicked out of the country because they did nothing wrong?

I would not support a settlement that said every 'Turkish Settler' (as defined by the RoC) that lives in north Cyprus today must be forced to leave Cyprus. There are many categories of such 'settlers'. To me those that came here in the 70's and 80's and have made their life here in Cyprus and some of whom have married Cypriots and had children here by such marriages or by marriages to other 'non Cypriots' are simply part of the ongoing evolving tapestry of Cypriot and TC culture and people. I would expect and only support a settlement that recognised this. As far as their use of pre 74 GC property goes I would expect them to be treated no different in that regard under the terms of any settlement than anyone else be the TC, Brit or any other nationality. That does not mean that I would not support a settlement that would require SOME 'settlers' to have to seek 'new' rights to residency and to work in Cyprus post a settlement, especially those who currently work or reside here but are not TRNC citizens.

turtle wrote:Erol,
Please don't involve me in your petty squabblings i have only posted comments from an article and never mentioned you in that post ?

I am sorry and I do apologise - I mistakenly wrote 'turtle' in one of my posts when I should have said 'trooper'. My mistake entirely and I will go and correct it now. Sorry. I can not edit the re quotes of my mistake turtle - Sorry. I have edited my original.

No problem.. Thank you Erol

erol wrote: .... I want there to be less discrimination in (north) Cyprus between those who are Cypriot and those who are not. I would welcome EU norms for EU citizens here, like not having to go through the ridiculous annual residency procedures and not having to gain 'permission to purchase' when buying property (with all the inherent risks that puts people at as a result). I would welcome EU citizens living here having the right to vote and stand in local elections. I would welcome all these changes with or without a solution but they all come as part and parcel of a solution and that is in part why I support attempts to broker a fair and reasonable settlement.

Given your statement, do you think it fair that those who have lived here for over 10 years will not be able to vote in any referendum?

We were promised rights of domicile and citizenship after 5 years - since then the goal posts have moved inexorably away from that position, thus denying basic human rights, on the grounds of ethnicity.....

Should the UN and EU recognise the rights of such peoples of any ethnic group who find themselves disenfranchised in this way ahead of any vote on the unification however bizonal and bi-communal that will be?

Groucho wrote: Given your statement, do you think it fair that those who have lived here for over 10 years will not be able to vote in any referendum?

I think anyone who is a TRNC citizen should be eligible to vote in any future referendum and yes I think people who have been resident here for more than five years should have a valid mechanism to apply for such citizenship.

erol wrote:

Groucho wrote: Given your statement, do you think it fair that those who have lived here for over 10 years will not be able to vote in any referendum?

I think anyone who is a TRNC citizen should be eligible to vote in any future referendum and yes I think people who have been resident here for more than five years should have a valid mechanism to apply for such citizenship.

I'm glad you think it should be so - we all know it's not going to happen unless Akinci makes it so....

Groucho, you are obviously in a better position than the vast majority of us. If and when people other than TC have the right to vote i.e those having lived here permanently for 5. 10, 15 years, you can bet your life it will only be those that have their full title deeds and I can honestly say I personally only know 10 foreigners who have that, 6 of them having moved here nearly 20 years ago when title deeds and even citizenship (if requested) was granted after 6 months.

We seek them here, we seek them there, those bubble and squeaks, we seek them everywhere

I think you will find that the South virtually shuts down in August as it is the traditional holiday month. It would therefore not be surprising to see many more GCs here. However, if the trend continues into September then maybe there is more to it.

The beach mentioned in posts 6 and 10 is a Maronite beach and has been since British times. The TRNC government has always respected Maronite rights and I am sure would never interfere. As most Maronites still reside in the South it is not surprising that they have GC registered vehicles.

Yes, JBA I guessed that they were maybe Maronites as it is close to Korucam. We had driven through there and saw a couple asking for directions from one of the locals, then they passed us going down to Corona. It just seems a bit strange though to see these beach bars/restaurants suddenly appear. But, nice for someone to make use of the areas, and nice to have somewhere to stop off now for refreshments.

sophie wrote:Groucho, you are obviously in a better position than the vast majority of us. If and when people other than TC have the right to vote i.e those having lived here permanently for 5. 10, 15 years, you can bet your life it will only be those that have their full title deeds and I can honestly say I personally only know 10 foreigners who have that, 6 of them having moved here nearly 20 years ago when title deeds and even citizenship (if requested) was granted after 6 months.

Better make that eleven, Sophie, we've got our deeds.

mrsgee wrote:Yes, JBA I guessed that they were maybe Maronites as it is close to Korucam. We had driven through there and saw a couple asking for directions from one of the locals, then they passed us going down to Corona. It just seems a bit strange though to see these beach bars/restaurants suddenly appear. But, nice for someone to make use of the areas, and nice to have somewhere to stop off now for refreshments.

I miss the beaches being as they were before, but I appreciate the fact that they are now maintained and looked after. Nice to get a sunbed too, if you want it. I do resent all the prices being in Euros, though, least they were last year. They take TL but conversion rate not always right.

frontalman wrote:...They take TL but conversion rate not always right.

.
.
Haggle, Man, - Haggle!

Yes I just found 6 Greeks wandering round my next door neighbours garden in Karsiyaka, with papers or maps in their hands. My other neighbour reported that some were here two days ago, doing the same sort of thing. I was reminded of our last holiday here in late 2003 and droves of them were walking round the holiday village that we were staying in, claiming it was all their land. If memory serves correctly, people were then encouraged to ring the police, if they were hassled and the offenders were stopped at the border and warned as to their future behaviour.

sophie wrote:Groucho, you are obviously in a better position than the vast majority of us. If and when people other than TC have the right to vote i.e those having lived here permanently for 5. 10, 15 years, you can bet your life it will only be those that have their full title deeds and I can honestly say I personally only know 10 foreigners who have that, 6 of them having moved here nearly 20 years ago when title deeds and even citizenship (if requested) was granted after 6 months.

I don't think title deeds could come into the equation as loads of people rent - and they would need to have voting rights too - property ownership should not be a criterion....

12. Now, we have our title deeds,only been here 4 years.

The police here view the act of Trespass quite harshly. In the old days boundary's used to be marked with sticks and canes and plants even, nobody passed others boundary's without permission - it looks like these days that all that has been forgotten and that people can go anywhere on anybody's property as if they own it. Having deeds for the property will not give them the right to trespass on the property that has been abandoned! Names if you can get them, car vehicle details and pass it on to the police.

Erol said: "I would not support a settlement that said every 'Turkish Settler' (as defined by the RoC) that lives in north Cyprus today must be forced to leave Cyprus. There are many categories of such 'settlers'. To me those that came here in the 70's and 80's and have made their life here in Cyprus and some of whom have married Cypriots and had children here by such marriages or by marriages to other 'non Cypriots' are simply part of the ongoing evolving tapestry of Cypriot and TC culture and people. I would expect and only support a settlement that recognised this. As far as their use of pre 74 GC property goes I would expect them to be treated no different in that regard under the terms of any settlement than anyone else be the TC, Brit or any other nationality. That does not mean that I would not support a settlement that would require SOME 'settlers' to have to seek 'new' rights to residency and to work in Cyprus post a settlement, especially those who currently work or reside here but are not TRNC citizen".[/quote]

That raises an interesting point. We have been looking at this from the point of those who are already EU citizens by right of eg British Nationality and have the "protection" of the EU (although in my opinion that is dubious) But Turkey is not in the EU. Will the settlement respect the rights of mainland Turks (and other non EU citizens, eg Pakistanis) who have been granted TRNC Nationality, and will any new bi communal Government of a united Cyprus honour and and accept them (after all the Greek Cypriots failed the honour the terms of the 1959 Constitution) or will they claim that citizenship and any other rights to residence were granted by an "illegal regime" and therefore invalid.

Ragged Robin wrote:That raises an interesting point. We have been looking at this from the point of those who are already EU citizens by right of eg British Nationality and have the "protection" of the EU (although in my opinion that is dubious) But Turkey is not in the EU. Will the settlement respect the rights of mainland Turks (and other non EU citizens, eg Pakistanis) who have been granted TRNC Nationality, and will any new bi communal Government of a united Cyprus honour and and accept them (after all the Greek Cypriots failed the honour the terms of the 1959 Constitution) or will they claim that citizenship and any other rights to residence were granted by an "illegal regime" and therefore invalid.

The answer almost certainly is that under a settlement some non Cypriots granted citizenship by the TRNC will gain automatic citizenship after a settlement and some will not.