Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

It was suggested here that a kibkom poll be set up re the UK EU in out referendum. Being a helpful sort of chap I have set one up here.

Great thing Erol well done. Look forward to the result

Remain with limits

vote to leave.

The problem with the actual vote as I see it, is explained by conversation with my oldest daughter who has NO idea what it is not to be in EU and she is nervous of voting for the unknown. I suspect there is a whole generation who are the same. My youngest daughter is married to a man who is "something in the City" can't for the life of her understand ANYONE, especially me, wanting to leave.

My head says stay, my heart says go.

100% out, for numerous reasons but mostly to regain our sovereignty back from Germany. My relatives who died fighting for our once great country are turning in their graves as I type this . What a kick in the teeth to all our dead heroes conceding power and freedom they died for.

Out

Thanks Erol, my vote has been cast but it would have been nice to have gleaned a bit more information from the Poll?

Do you live in TRNC - Yes/No would have given a good indication of how permanent ex pats feel about the vote and how it will effect them if it is to be OUT!

Thanks Erol for putting up the Poll,.. I don't think it's any secret which way I voted.

OUT!!!

waddo wrote:Thanks Erol, my vote has been cast but it would have been nice to have gleaned a bit more information from the Poll?

Do you live in TRNC - Yes/No would have given a good indication of how permanent ex pats feel about the vote and how it will effect them if it is to be OUT!

The poll options built into the forum are fairly limited and in any case rely on 'trust' (you can do a poll for example that says please only vote if you live in the trnc, but there is no means to 'verfiy' those voting live in the trnc), so I though just a general in or out generic poll made the most sense. If people would like multiple polls by different categories (trnc resident, uk citizen no trnc resident etc etc) and understand they would rely on 'trust' and people actually reading the description before voting they are easy to set up.

Pressed wrong option (dont do polls first thing in morning ) minus one remain vote,add one leave

As far as my impression of history is.............we meaning Great Britain fought off for hundreds of years to keep Great Britain an Island and .......and we kept out the Vikings! and won....fought off the French and won............Spanish and won.............Germans.............well beat them twice.
Great Britain is an Island that can command it's self, have it' own laws.............and shut the doors that we do not want in our society
Think you all know what my vote is.............same as the 1st referendum NO!!!!!!

Wookie wrote:As far as my impression of history is.............we meaning Great Britain fought off for hundreds of years to keep Great Britain an Island and .......and we kept out the Vikings! and won....fought off the French and won............Spanish and won.............Germans.............well beat them twice.
Great Britain is an Island that can command it's self, have it' own laws.............and shut the doors that we do not want in our society......

Er, with all due respect:
"Invasions of the British Isles have occurred throughout modern history. Indeed, various states within the territorial space that now comprises the British Isles were invaded several times; by the Romans, the Germans, Scandinavians, the French, the Dutch and one another."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasio ... tish_Isles

mowgli
please do all of us incl me a favour and do not call ancient Jutes, Angles and Saxons from AD 410 "Germans".
it would be the same as you would call the picts scottish or the romans italian and gives a wrong impression.
thanks

I maybe wrong but I think when it comes to it we'll find ourselves 60/40 in favour of staying in. Such a pity.

Muzer, Surely you are not suggesting for one moment that Her Majesty's Government would try to return a bogus result!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geoff1131 wrote:Muzer, Surely you are not suggesting for one moment that Her Majesty's Government would try to return a bogus result!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heaven forbid!

Not at all but looked what happened to Ireland vote no mmm we don't like that answer now let's try again what do the Irish vote. ... Yes good boys and girls.

Absolutely Muzer.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there is an out vote in June that Brussels suddenly change direction ?

Turtle,
What sort of change in direction?
If the UK leaves then don't expect Europe to come crawling. Expect a degree of bitterness after all its the UK that has applied for a divorce.

If the UK public vote to leave, I wonder which other countries, if any, may decide to, or be pressured into holding a referendum? Thoughts anyone?

I agree that it would have been interesting if there were perhaps 2 more question in the pole i.e. 1. Age 2. where most of the year is spent. I suspect those voting to come out, are of a certain age. I do feel that dragging in WW1 and WW11 is not relevant. I wonder just how many people who had relatives who died in Korea and during the war against the Japanese, use Korean made mobiles and drive Japanese made cars.

Looking at the posts upon the general subject. I suspect many are retired and have experienced the UK in the post WW11 hay days.
Colonial Britain with a stiff upper lip can prevail again??
The European and indeed world problem of terrorism and population migrations is somewhat clouding the water.

I do hope the younger generation can forward think, deal with the clear issues and find resolution without voting to close the doors , hide under the bed and everything will be just like the good old days.

Waz
I will strike a deal with you...
I am sure most of the 76% out voters on this poll would change their minds to staying in if you could give us some comfort in the knowledge that the EU will be corruption free and accountable form now on ?.......Go on give us some hope that things will change for the average person instead of favouring big business fatcats.

For me nothing to do with the 2 world wars or the empire just plain simple honesty is all I ask.

No one is hiding under the bed and give us credit for having a modicum of intelligence. Yes some of us are old but that gives us the experience of knowing what our country used to be like when we ran it ourselves.its not just the uk that is unhappy it's most of the Northern Europe states as well. This one size fits all democracy does not work for everyone. I have friends in France,Ireland,Holland Belgium Germany and Austria who are all fed up and want their country back. Germany wants rid of merkel and the euro badly. Immigration over the last year has brought this to the fore and we see what a mess has been made. Let's help them rebuild their own countries so they stay in them but then after big business from certain countries and wars started by people with their own agenda maybe it's too late.

Well said that man.

Was- not yet reached UK retirement age maybe Greek retirement yes, nearest I got to ww2 is playing with my grandads medals I dont have blond hair either.

Terry2366
Thank you. Of course there are many disillusioned citizens across Europe. The immigration and population movements across the globe is a very serious problem It is a European and indeed World wide problem . It needs a global solution and not a separatist. we don't want to be involved stance. A BREXIT will most definitely not be the fix you may think it could be. Your comment about assistance to rebuild is indeed noble. Such action is justifiable IN or OUT. The UK cannot be what it once was. The World cannot be likewise. Its simple ...forwards OR backwards. success OR failure.

Turtle,
No Democracy is fail safe or guaranteed to deliver all we want. The Brussels administration is like every other. Not perfect but it is what we have at the moment and in part it works to encourage growth and prosperity. That certainly can be changed. That's what democracy is. I certainly do not tow the Brussels line. I am Welsh and very proud to be in the UK. I sell goods and services to Europe and the World. All designed by British engineers in a British business. The average UK citizen benefits immensely from the trade the UK does with Europe. The private sector pays for the public sector. It is only revenue entering the UK that pays for our expectations that's a fact.. My task will immediately become more difficult if the UK votes to stand alone.

So it sounds like you are fearful of losing business if we leave,.. as a business man myself I fully understand that however this is my argument will the EU countries stop buying our goods ?...I don't think they will, if they pull up the drawbridge and say bugger off then that will harm them just as much as it would harm us so this (in my opinion) simply will not happen.

Turtle,
Take an example in consideration. Nissan motors UK based in Sunderland produce 5 vehicles for the European market. The European market is massive. They build a car every 2 minutes. 80% exported under EU free trade. British engineers and work force doing a sterling job. The new INFINITY luxury range is due expansion could go to several sites ,. The whole of the UK automotive sector uses the UK as gateway to European sales. It works well and investment flows are good.
The Spanish ( Valencia)have recently won the largest Ford plant in Europe for similar reasons. If the UK leaves the Union then free unhindered exports will not be there. The Spanish, French, Italian and Polish will be on the phone on the 24th should we close the said door. It really is as simple as that. The UK must compete for investment jobs and the benefits that brings to a country like the UK. We hold some ace cards. That;s why we have succeeded. It isn't getting any easier and the jury is out for final statements.

Waz-24-7, where are you getting your information from, who tells you all of this. Are you speaking from experience, you've said your in business, is this the business colleagues you deal with sharing their thoughts, opinions on this. Where is the proof that on the next day leaving the EU will damage business with the scenarios you talk about.

I'm a mere mortal in this living in the UK but I cannot comprehend(at the moment) that by pulling out of the EU everything will collapse the next day. 3 million people will be put out of work, that no one in the world will trade with us. I just find this type of talk slightly over the top.

"...Go on give us some hope that things will change for the average person instead of favouring big business fatcats...."
So being out will prevent any repetition of Fred the Shred, Libor, and all the other banking scandals? Lord Ashcroft and his ilk will, like the boojum, "softly and suddenly vanish away, and never be met with again"....?
Why is Sir Philip Green being hauled over the coals re BHS?
"...the EU will be corruption free and accountable from now on ?..."
Most definitely, NO country - including a 'standalone' UK - ever has been, is or will be corruption free...
...and average person? Just one example - "Under the European working time directive, staff are entitled to four weeks’ holiday pay a year." - Yes, I could foresee a change for the average person....(not that I care, being retired...)

Waz
So you think the EU won't buy Nissan Cars ?.....utter tosh.
Incidentally I work very close with Honda at Swindon and their view is totally different to the one you have just expressed.

Honda have a manufacturing plant in Turkey and guess where some of their cars end up ?

Turtle,
No of course not. ... Simply Nissan car production will move outside of the UK where the gateway into the European market remains free and open.
Honda. Swindon plant has very recently secured the all NEW Civic 2SV not only for UK but also for the American market. This production is more secure because export to the USA is clear and without uncertainty.
What do you see as the Honda view please.
Trade agreements exist with EU/Turkey not the UK the Honda plant at Gebze is one of the supply chains into Europe. The Ford transit was moved from the UK to Turkey as a cost reduction exercise and to more easily supply middle Europe.

If I want to buy something and it is not available locally, lets say for the sake of argument, a makita cordless blower, I go on to amazon and I search for retailers who supply that product. They could be in France,UK, Germany or USA. I will choose the cheapest supplier within the EU and have it shipped to a south PO box, because there is no customs and no unknown duty, there is just the price and the known delivery cost. If I lived in France and the UK was outside the single EU market, then a UK retailer would not be an attractive option to me compared to any other retailer within the single market.

I remember when the same item in the UK was often more expensive than it was in France or Germany or Poland. Anything from cars to televisions to bottles of wine to garden furniture. It is the single market more than anything that stopped that differential pricing by region I believe. With the UK outside the EU, large multinationals will charge more in the UK for the same things as they do elsewhere because they will be able to get away with doing so. I believe they did this before the EU stopped them from being able to do so and will do again if the UK were to leave the EU.

I do not think anyone is saying if the UK leaves the EU its economy will collapse. However it is well within the realms of possible, imo at least, that the UK leaving the EU could result in 0.2% or 0.5% or 1% less annual GDP growth, over 5 years or 10 years or more. These sound like small number but actually would have a real and direct and significant impact on the lives of ordinary UK citizens.

Erol,
very valid point that illustrates at ground level one possible outcome of going it alone.
Furthermore,
I have made the point upon the effect on free travel. In particular at present ex pats travel freely into South Cyprus (EU member) because they are legally allowed and free to do so.
In the event we EXIT. Then ex pats will become aliens ( non EU) and there is distinct possibility that visa application will become standard, stricter border controls and other obstacles will emerge., particularly as ex pats living in the north are hardly every southern Cypriots best new friend.
No more quick walk through the "EU " border control. Visas, green cards, work permits ... back to the bad old days.
I agree a decline in GDP is almost a certainty. This means decline and loss of competitiveness. Not good for anyone UK or Ex pat.

Waz
Are you saying that the likes of Nissan, Honda, Toyota will move to Europe at huge expense and a logisical nightmare then not sell cars on the UK market because their product will be too expensive ?

Sounds to me like business suicide and a complete non starter.

Turtle
No most certainly.
All the OEM car makers have invested in the UK as the gateway to the European market. capitalising upon our engineering and manufacturing skills.
All the Japanese car makers came to the UK shortly after we joined the Union for precisely that reason. Car plants are relocated very easily in modern times. FORD closed their largest European plant ( Genk) and moved the models to Spain and Germany within 12 months.
The plants you list will move if they can secure trading advantage. To manufacture within the European union and its free trade is a very distinct advantage. Certainly they will then export to the UK...at a cost .....expect cars to be more expensive as they were pre union membership.

So we all rush out and buy more expensive cars from the EU ?

Sounds like a plan.

Hi Turtle.
You can go into most showrooms pay £299 down and drive a brand new model for 3 years at about £250 a month. Give it back in 3 and get the latest model brand new. That the new nature of car UK ownership.
On the BREXIT matter. I encourage everyone to be pragmatic and think for a moment. How will the UK prosper economically, reduce its massive debts, maintain its position as a G20 economy if it walks away from the European negotiating table that oversees 157 million individual spending members.
I think its a one way ticket into the doldrums.

Britain's massive debt's as you put it have been created while IN the EU not for any other reason and if we stay there is more than a good chance that debt will get bigger,.. this country is so uncompetitive now .

G20... oh yes that is the 5star jolly up they have every now and again with no expense spared with little or no progress.

Joined EEC 1973 -
from here - "The National Debt began the 20th century at about 30 percent of GDP. It jerked above 150 percent in World War I and stayed high. Debt breached 200 percent during World War II. Debt declined to 50 percent of GDP by the 1970s and dipped to 25 percent by 1990. The National Debt began a rapid increase in the aftermath of the worldwide financial crisis of 2008."

That's the answer then Jofra, lets vote for OUT and go back to the "Golden Years", the "Good Old Days", lets get back to the Common Market errrr, sorry I meant the EEC errrrr oh do I mean the EU??? Anyway, whatever I mean it is obvious that it is the EU's fault and we should vote IN, or is that OUT or, or, or............................

The national debt is a significant burden upon the country and its people who are responsible for paying off the debt. Successive governments have seen a need to borrow money to pay for public sector services. defence, infrastructure and administration. The debt culture is unfortunately rife. We are continually bombarded with " debt is ok" "borrow more" advertising. "Store cards" "credit cards", "quick quid", "pounds to pocket" and pay day loans prevail. The UK debt culture is NOT from the EU it is a British thing.
The Country, like any family or business must pay its way. Its need to get out and work sell goods and services, earn money to pay for a lifestyle we want and deserve. Basic and simple economics really. How can being OUT provide for this? Being IN maintains our strong market presence and the future is positive to expand from this base. The UK has comparatively strong growth. The future is positive and bright. Vote IN.

Spain debt 94% of GDP
Portugal debt 129% of GDP
Italy debt 132% of GDP
Greece debt 175% of GDP
France debt 93.5% of GDP
Germany dept 78.4% of GDP
British debt 91% of GDP

The list goes on,... and this is a successful trading EU ?

Turtle
very useful info thank you. The level of national debt cannot be put down to membership of the Union. Successive governments propose debt reduction policies...most fail!! The borrowing is most often to finance other expensive policies that got them into power. Effectively ...buying votes!!
The UK like others want to and need to clear debt. How do you do that. Reduce spending and wasting but most importantly seek to increase what you earn. In the UK.... sell more goods and services to foreign countries. Are we doing that? Sure as hell we are. The UK DTI supported by some excellent progressive thinking government initiatives are out there every working hour to promote business Britain and Britain is open for business. The cards are stacked in our favour at the moment. Please don't topple the stack.
Vote IN