Independence day 24 June 2016

thornaby · Post by **thornaby** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 11:52 am

The start date for leaving this undemocratic, unaccountable, self serving madhouse. We can take back control and if things don't go right such as immigration we have only ourselves to blame, but at least we can kick out the politicians who get it wrong , somthing that we can't do with the unaccountable, Unelected , undemocratic dictatorship in the E. U.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 12:28 pm

I fear that there are too many younger people now who do not recall our Great Britain and England as it was prior to E.U. They think that this Farce is a normal way of life now. I hope I am proved wrong and we can take back our country.

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 12:52 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:I fear that there are too many younger people now who do not recall our Great Britain and England as it was prior to E.U.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 28544.html

and some google images for 'uk in 1973'

https://www.google.com.cy/search?q=uk+i ... AIYQsAQILA

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 1:39 pm

The Independent: As a scientist who researches false memories, I find talk of ‘the good old days’ before the EU very familiar. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwmc-V0iU

thornaby · Post by **thornaby** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 2:26 pm

Britain again can save europe by voting out. Others will follow. A common market is OK but we live now dicktatership. People who gave their lives to free europe from this tyranny must if they could ask why the hell did we bother!

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 2:56 pm

Having watched a couple of long news items on both ITV and BBC today I'm sad to say that I really do consider the murder of Jo Cox will have caused the "waverers" to vote to stay in Europe, in their tens of thousands. Even die hard Leave voters to change sides. Particularly after this afternoons procedures in the Houses of Parliament. They are bringing out the Kinnocks (Jo Cox worked for Glynnis Kinnock) for goodness sake!! Also. once again Nigel Farage appears to have gone one step too far and upset the Leave leaders. That man should have been quietly silenced for the whole period leading up to Thursday and not let out until it was all over. He would have done far less damage that way.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 4:14 pm

I fear you may be right Sophie, having watched a few of the debates on TV I was more impressed with Gisela Stuart's ability to put the Brexit case across,easily out shone Boris and Farage, and wasn't an easy target for the personal attacks by the IN campaign, being German and British.

thornaby · Post by **thornaby** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 4:32 pm

The murder of Joe Cox was a tragedy and an affront to democracy. But the biggest affront to democracy by far is the E. .U. I would hope that people who are undecided will look beyond this tragedy which should not infuence them either way of their voting intension.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 4:50 pm

sophie
maybe some people also take in consideration that it could be that their leaders have simply more info and some of them might be very true....

this week german spiegel reported that " important EU MPs" met and said that in case of a brexit, the access for the UK to the common market will be more difficult, as " (after the 23rd) there will be negotiations for divorce or more consolidation coming..."
so, in means in and out means out.
if you vote remain, be prepared that the UKs special arrangements with the Eu comes slowly but surely to an end. the dictators take over.
if you vote out, be sure that these dictators will prove that they have some power.

argumentation was: the problem of the EU are not the regulations, the problem is that they are not implemented.
also germany is not the "brilliant european", many EU laws and regulations they put not into national law.
anyway,
yesterday, the European Banking Authority announced that in a case of a brexit they will, must leave london.

so, be prepared, hard times will come anyway, or as i said in privious posts: brexit or not, you can not escape it.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 5:14 pm

kibsolar1999 wrote:sophie
maybe some people also take in consideration that it could be that their leaders have simply more info and some of them might be very true....

this week german spiegel reported that " important EU MPs" met and said that in case of a brexit, the access for the UK to the common market will be more difficult, as " (after the 23rd) there will be negotiations for divorce or more consolidation coming..."
so, in means in and out means out.
if you vote remain, be prepared that the UKs special arrangements with the Eu comes slowly but surely to an end. the dictators take over.
if you vote out, be sure that these dictators will prove that they have some power.

argumentation was: the problem of the EU are not the regulations, the problem is that they are not implemented.
also germany is not the "brilliant european", many EU laws and regulations they put not into national law.
anyway,
yesterday, the European Banking Authority announced that in a case of a brexit they will, must leave london.

so, be prepared, hard times will come anyway, or as i said in privious posts: brexit or not, you can not escape it.

Kibsolar
Valid points.
However
The EU should not be viewed as the enemy. Many posters appear to be taking that view and are blind to the damage and loss that a BREXIT will inflict on the UK. It is the UK proposal for divorce that will clearly cause some to go legal and make things difficult...just like most divorce cases.
No winners in litigation. Lose lose lose is all over it.

The fact is that the UK is the second largest member and therefore and without doubt carries clout. This position should not be forfeited because people are dissatisfied over what are recent issues. After all we have been members for 40 plus years. Better to ride the storm, grasp the helm and steer a reformed course. To jump into the lifeboats presents a survival option but the ship is not fatally holed. It needs UK expertise and commitment. The EU is indeed a world economy and has seen difficult times of late. Reform is on the cards now that the tree has been firmly shaken.
I am certain that in the event of a REMAIN victory. We can expect some real activity towards the reforms that are desperately needed.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 5:37 pm

yes waz, agreed reforms are needed, brexit or not.

eg, not to accept special arrangements.
eg, put your membership fee up!, or,
do not accept useless vetoes and strenghten the (elected) EU parliament. or
put quotas for refugees, or
introduction of the eu wide tobin tax...

is that what the UK wants? (iam just asking)

neither germany nor france or the UK or spain, portugal (and even greece as the "mother of democracy") are the big nations they sometimes claim to be. thats over, finished and there is no exclusion.

you always see it from your point only.. but maybe you get it better when i say: britain should not be viewed as an enemy.

the uk wanted to join the EU (different name these days) in the middle of the sixties first time.
i just saw in original the press conference in which the french president de gaulle said: if we permit the UK to join the EU, we will get special arrangements, deceptions and trickery. thats is not the idea of the EU and thats why we do not want them.

it took several years until the other members convinced france to accept the Uk.
and, what we got?

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 5:45 pm

I sometimes wonder why it seems that not only is there no open discussion about "why not a United States of Europe ?", but that such discussion is 'off limits' in and off itself. A United States of Europe where the UK has no more sovereignty within it than say California has within the USA. A single currency, a single external boarder and a single democratic federal executive and independent judiciary. Why not ? It seems to me we need to discuss why it is we do not want this, if we really do not want it, before we can truly understand what it is we do want.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 5:50 pm

thank you, erol.

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 6:19 pm

mickhm · Post by **mickhm** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 7:12 pm

Waz you write " After all we have been members for 40 plus years" Perhaps the only reason for this is that we have not had the opportunity to get us out before now

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 7:19 pm

Brilliant Photos Erol. Great Days. But the Fuel and Power Cuts , What relevance does that have to the EU. ??

The UK is sinking under the wight of mass immigration . It is all ready over populated. Our NHS , various benefits and pensions that many of us have paid for have been swallowed up. Stop all immigration now and get out of the EU.

Virtually every Police documentary I have seen of late , is 30 minutes of Eastern European organised Shoplifters and Criminals, Vietnamese Drug related murders etc, etc. It does not take a Genius to see that people are flooding into the UK for one reason and it certainly is not for the Weather.

How would you feel Erol if we had come to TRNC and behaved like this and what I have pointed out is the tip of the iceberg. Reporting on foreign offenders is very much red taped and has been for around 40 years. (in case of civil unrest.)

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 7:54 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:Brilliant Photos Erol. Great Days. But the Fuel and Power Cuts , What relevance does that have to the EU. ??

I was suggesting that those days were perhaps not quite as great as some now remember them

Johnny Lee wrote:The UK is sinking under the wight of mass immigration .

I just do not accept this. Even in the midst of the worst migration crisis the world has seen since ww2 we are talking about 1 million migrants having entered the EU last year vs a population of over 500 million. What is more the UK has pledged to only take 20,000 such migrants over 5 years, to my mind a woefully small number that makes me ashamed to be British. That we can decide on our own with no say from the EU what that number will be just shows that we do actually have sovereign control of our boarders with regards to migrant from outside the EU.
Yes you can say - but we do not have control of migration from within the EU and that is true. But it is also true that we don not have control of migration from within the UK either. We can not stop people from migrating from rural Wales or Scotland or the North of England to the more prosperous SE of England either. Do we need such migration controls within the UK ?

Johnny Lee wrote:It is all ready over populated.

I simply do not agree.

Johnny Lee wrote:Our NHS , various benefits and pensions that many of us have paid for have been swallowed up. Stop all immigration now and get out of the EU.

All the data shows that over all migrants contribute more into funding things like the NHS than they 'take out' of it relative to non migrant UK citizens. If you were to remove all migrants the NHS would actually have less funding not more. You may not like these facts but I do believe them to be facts backed up with hard and credible data. As for how many nurse and cleaners and doctors and other NHS staff we would be short should if we had not allowed migration into the UK, well that is something you should ask yourself imo.

Johnny Lee wrote:Virtually every Police documentary I have seen of late , is 30 minutes of Eastern European organised Shoplifters and Criminals, Vietnamese Drug related murders etc, etc. It does not take a Genius to see that people are flooding into the UK for one reason and it certainly is not for the Weather.

With all due respect that to me is just xenophobic claptrap and not supported by any actual evidence. Even putting aside actual credible data on the % of crimes committed by migrants vs non migrants and relying only on my own subjective personal experience, I know for a fact my father did not emigrate to the UK in order to, rob and steal and trade drugs and nor did he do so for the weather. Your claim is to me , offensive, generally and personally.

Johnny Lee wrote:How would you feel Erol if we had come to TRNC and behaved like this and what I have pointed out is the tip of the iceberg. Reporting on foreign offenders is very much red taped and has been for around 40 years. (in case of civil unrest.)

You mean how would I feel if someone was to take examples like Gary Robb or other convicted criminals and drug dealers and then use those examples to make out that all the people that came from the UK to live in the TRNC were no different from them ? I would feel pretty offended to be honest.

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Mon 20 Jun 2016 11:24 pm

the Euro was pitched low to help the sale of German goods
roc was allowed to join when their population said no and the TRNCis not in although the population said yes
No debt relief for Greece so they are set up to fail in the bail out
roc offered a deal Anistadiadies goes to sign and its changed round to a bail in
The Evil Empire must end
High youth unemployment & German and eu commission control
NO TO DARTH MERKEL

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 8:27 am

Erol I do not know where you get your prettied up ideas from. I think you need to start looking at facts and what is happening. Have you looked at Lesvos ? the beautiful Greek Island ? Do you really beleive the modern influx of mainly young men to the UK are putting in to our UK coffers.

Do you not know about the dreadful troubles in Germany and other EU dumping grounds. ?

So the actual Police footage and documentary's are claptrap you say ?? Every time I see a drugs gang (for instance) in the local West Mids. newspaper they are mainly all foreign, Just a few days ago in the Express and Star , I think the photos of a 10 man group show were all foreign. Look at the names and nationalities in general when Cannabis farm are busted, and most other serious crime.

Over the last approx. 10 years how many criminals or wanted rouges have come here and started pedalling their crime here ? I think you will find not many. Gary Robb yes of course did wrong , but was he not involved with local businessman ? and partly a scapegoat ? But 100 s of thousands of lowlife from abroad are in UK prisons ,costing the taxpayer yet more money

You refer to the Drugs dealers who came here yes I can think of a couple , but they did not come here to continue their evil trade , or to rob from the TRNC funds.

In fact I can not think of many Ex Pats who have come here to deal in organised crime.

As I am sure you well know , most people who emigre ate here, from various countries . bring their assets with them. Yes there are a certain amount of chancers here. But there is no comparison to the UK and Europe.

I wanted to bring in my Chefs brother from Bangla Desh, he had genuine work awaiting in our Restaurant, he had a home with his longstanding family in the England an all his papers are in order. Yet we were not able to. 1 genuine person V 100 s of thousands of Asylum seekers . I think there is something wrong with the immigration system.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 8:58 am

wanderer,
well, seems you are a typical brexit supporter, using untrue facts, not knowing which direction you want to go...

the euro was introduced to the dollar with 1,17, today it is 1,13.
the euro changes for the same today to GBP as in 1994.
(only during subprime crises the Euro was very high)

"pitched low" means that the Euro should be worth (much) more ?
but, brexit supporters complaint about all these bail outs (and the failing currency) in which they do not want to be involved.

hä?, the eurois good.. or bad.. ?
doesnt matter, the EU is an evil and merkel is a nazi.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 9:13 am

Johnny lee
But 100 s of thousands of lowlife from abroad are in UK prisons ,costing the taxpayer yet more money

what? get your numbers right. high yes, but in total 95,248 are imprisoned.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ern-europe

- A growing number of British prisoners are former armed forces members. According to a study reported in the Guardian in 2009, 8,500 former servicemen were imprisoned, making up almost 10% of the prison population
- The number of British prisoners aged over 60 years has risen by 130% between 2002 and 2013 (to over 4000), a shift attributed to an increase in the convictions for historic sex abuse.

Dalartokat · Post by **Dalartokat** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 9:24 am

Well if we are going to band figures about, might as well digest this also:

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets ... b_2016.pdf

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 9:36 am

Johnny Lee wrote: I think you need to start looking at facts and what is happening.

It is exactly because I look at facts that I do not share your opinion. Report after report and study after study on this issue by serious academics based on hard data overwhelmingly find “no causal impact of immigration on crime", not just in the UK but across Europe. I could cite study after study that come to this conclusions, so forgive me if I consider such evidence more credible than your own personal assertions about what is 'fact'.

Johnny Lee wrote:In fact I can not think of many Ex Pats who have come here to deal in organised crime.

I agree but my point is this is also true of the vast majority of immigrants in the UK as well. Taking the example of a small minority of such and extending that to 'all immigrants' is what you do re immigrants to the UK but do not do with immigrants from the UK to here. That is my point. There are immigrants into the TRNC from the UK that involved themselves in criminal activity here, from serious and violent crime to petty crimes likes working 'off the books'. To claim therefore that all such immigrants into the TRNC are the same would be a gross distortion of reality. Just as it is to take the fact that some immigrants into the UK are involved in criminal activity and use that to claim that all or most immigrants into the UK are. It just is not true, if you look at actual evidence rather than just decide what you think is true regardless of actual evidence.

Johnny Lee wrote:I wanted to bring in my Chefs brother from Bangla Desh, he had genuine work awaiting in our Restaurant, he had a home with his longstanding family in the England an all his papers are in order. Yet we were not able to. 1 genuine person V 100 s of thousands of Asylum seekers . I think there is something wrong with the immigration system.

I struggle to see how you 'solution' of "Stop all immigration now and get out of the EU" would actually help the situation you describe above ?

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 11:45 am

kibsolar1999
The low pitching of the euro was against the value of the mark which was and had gained in strength against all other currencies through the 70's & 80's
This was hampering German exports .Another country that has fuelled its success by having an undervalued currency is China making their exports extremely cheap
Greece being allowed into euro on knowingly forged figures to qualify roc being allowed to join the eu
The support for the Ukraine membership
The whole thing is corrupt and undemocratic

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 1:30 pm

I think a few people need to come out of their Cyber worlds and step into the real word.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 2:05 pm

johnny : I think a few people need to come out of their Cyber worlds and step into the real word.
you will get your real world on the 24th.

wanderer, i believe you do not know excatly what you are talking about.
the euro, introduced 1999 without the GBP, has a forerunner, the European Currency Unit, introduced 1979 and in which the UK-GBP had an approx share of 13%.
and another forerunner, the European Unit of Account (EUA) , introduced after Bretton woods failed, beginning of the 70th.

what has been fixed here to the advantage of the germans? nothing. no other member of the euro or ECU or EUA would have permitted that another currency will be put too low (or too high).

what china did and does comes slowly but surely to an end.. chinese companies go for manufacturing to Ethopia instead..
but you should take care that the GBP does not become the next renmimbi.. somewhat 1:1 to the euro...

yes, some EU-Euro memberships are political motivated, thats part of the EU, thats the will. no more war, instead unity, humanity which includes solidarity. you signed that. and now you (45-55%) do not want that any more.
you always say "we joined the EU"... but also the acceptance of britain in the 70ties as a member of the forerunner EU was a political decision.

the EU (and its institutions) is not perfect, but be sure, less corrupt as your own country.

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 2:36 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:I think a few people need to come out of their Cyber worlds and step into the real word.

And I guess the following, in your opinion, would also need to come out of the cyber world and step into the real one ?

Associate Professor in Economics, University of Oxford, UK Brian Bell

http://wol.iza.org/articles/crime-and-immigration

The evidence, based on empirical studies of many countries, indicates that there is no simple link between immigration and crime

and

Georgios Papadopoulos of School of Economics, University of East Anglia, Norwich Research Park

http://izajom.springeropen.com/articles ... -9039-3-12

This study investigated the individual relationship between immigration and property crime in England and Wales. Although there is a public sentiment that immigrants are more involved in criminal activities than natives, the empirical results of this paper lead to different conclusions.

and

Luca Nunziata of Department of Economics and Management, University of Padua

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 015-0543-2

Our results reveal a misconception of the link between immigration and crime among European natives.

and Laura Jaitman of Department of Economics University College London and Stephen Machin of Department of EconomicsUniversity College London and Centre for Economic Performance, London School of Economics

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/2193-9039-2-19

When we are able to implement a credible research design with statistical power, we find no evidence of an average causal impact of immigration on crime, nor do we when we consider A8 and Non-A8 immigration separately.

And I could go on and on and on citing credible, serious, academics from across Europe who have looked at and studied actual data and all conclude the same thing. So once again you will have to forgive me if I am of the opinion that the conclusions of these serious academics who have actually studied the issue in detail using real data are in fact more likely to reflect the 'real world' than your conclusions.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 5:39 pm

Being able to look up stats on the internet and reprint them onto a forum does not make you clever or street wise. The stats last night on the England football team made us look wonderful. But basically we were a crock of s--t that could not get a goal in the net. Like you said Erol actual footage and facts on the Police programmes , etc. etc. are claptrap. So whats the difference with the internet. ?

I am sure monied corrupt people in power who only think about how much they can make and take will fix those figures

. I am reading the John Stalker book at present and the way that his own Police force and government bodies tried to set him up (due to him being honest and truthful) is beyond belief. Most of the UK government do not give a flying fig about their own people.

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 21 Jun 2016 6:20 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:Being able to look up stats on the internet and reprint them onto a forum does not make you clever or street wise.

Where have I ever claimed I was clever or even street wise ? You as part of your technique of 'playing the man and not the ball' have implied I am not 'streetwise' and am disconnected from the 'real world' but I just ignore such comments because they are not 'argument' as far as I am concerned.

Johnny Lee wrote: Like you said Erol actual footage and facts on the Police programmes , etc. etc. are claptrap. So whats the difference with the internet. ?

You appear unable to even see the difference in your subjective impression gleaned from having watched a few 'cop shows' themselves produced as entertainment and detailed independent academic studies based on hard statistical data and analysis. That you call such independent academic studies 'the internet' also speaks volumes to me.

Johnny Lee wrote:I am sure monied corrupt people in power who only think about how much they can make and take will fix those figures

This is not one study, or even a few studies. This is study after study after study from universities across the EU, from Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Spain Switzerland, Sweden and the UK. They overwhelmingly failed to find any causal link between immigrants and increased crime rates, despite explicitly looking for such. There are strong correlations that these studies find. They find that those that are unemployed and lack employment opportunities, be they migrant or not, are more likely to indulge in criminality than those who are employed or have employment opportunities.

You can try and 'argue' that such studies are all part of some conspiracy theory of 'monied corrupt people in power' but doing so just shows, to me at least, how little interest you have in actual facts. You know what you know. You know that 'immigrants cause increased crime' and you know this despite and regardless of actual reality and of any and all actual credible evidence to the contrary. Anyone who challenges 'what you know' to be 'fact' can be and will just be written off in one way or another in order for you to protect 'what you know'.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 8:21 am

I suggest you watch the speech by Peter Shore in 1975, This was the damage done already within only a few years membership. Also take a look at the unemployment figures and GDP figures for Norway, Iceland, Greeenland, Switzerland.

The EU is a Dictatorship that is ruining the UK.

The whole thing is so corrupt . it is now being suggested that voters must take their own pen, and do not use Pencils that are normally provided in voting booths. (for obvious reasons).

Too many selfish people who are only interested in their own gain.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 8:28 am

Meant to say also Erol , don't need to see the stats. Or read the so called facts. ! (like I said I saw the stats for the England Game).

I lived amomgst it for most of my life . I have dealt with the blunt end of Prostitution, drugs and alike. Many decent British people would really like their country back.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 8:35 am

Johnny Lee wrote:... it is now being suggested that voters must take their own pen...

Hi Lee, Are you serious?

Who exactly is suggesting this?

Could you point me to some public pronouncement that says this please?

...and do not use Pencils that are normally provided in voting booths. (for obvious reasons)...

Well, I'm afraid that the reasons are not obvious to me - are you suggesting that the independent scrutineers and other officials involved in the administration of the voting process are corrupt, and would actually ALTER someone's vote if it was in pencil?

Or if not, what is the reason?

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 9:01 am

If the great British people vote to stay in tomorrow then, that is the last time that your vote will have any meaning. There will be no point in voting in any future elections because your vote will be meaningless. A vote to remain is a vote to give what's left of our sovereignty & independence to the EU. We will probably be in the Euro within 5 years there WILL be an EU army that will spend most of it's time suppressing internal uprisings. This will all end in bloodshed.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 9:43 am

Johnny Lee wrote:Meant to say also Erol , don't need to see the stats. Or read the so called facts. !

I know you do not need to read the facts, your views are set independent and regardless of them. I know this. It is just a bit rich when this is the case for you and yet earlier you said to me

Johnny Lee wrote:I think you need to start looking at facts and what is happening.

As for

Johnny Lee wrote: I lived amomgst it for most of my life . I have dealt with the blunt end of Prostitution, drugs and alike. Many decent British people would really like their country back.

Believe it or not I have also 'lived amongst it' as well, I did not just pop out of a computer a few days ago. I lived the first 40 years of my life in the UK as the son of an immigrant. My father was as 'decent' as any 'British person' and possibly more so than average on any comparison with non Immigrants in the UK. He certainly contributed more to the UK than any average of non immigrants. He was not involved in prostitution or drugs, things I think you will find existed in the UK before our entry into the EEC as it was back then. This idea that the increase in such things in the UK is a result of immigration is as far as I am concerned just claptrap, just an attempt to try and believe that it is only foreigners who deal in such things and not 'decent British people'. It is a fantasy and it is not supported by any actual evidence.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 10:16 am

Johnny Lee wrote:I suggest you watch the speech by Peter Shore in 1975,

I have done and it was indeed an impassioned speech by him and yet the UK people voted overwhelmingly (67%) to remain in. The increasing negative balance of payment figures relative to the EU that Mr Shore spoke about, represented British people buying more things from the rest of the EEC countries than we were selling to them once artificial barriers were removed , because they were more efficiently produced and better value than those made in the UK. Sure we could have chosen to carry on making such foreign made things to expensive for ordinary UK citizens to afford with tariffs and import restrictions and thus forced those in the UK to have buy less efficiently produced and more expensive British made alternatives or simply go without. We could have done that and simply prolonged and sustained the slow decline of productivity and efficiency of British made goods relative to elsewhere that was the trend through the 60's and 70's, but doing so would not have improved the lives of ordinary people living in the UK, it would have impoverish them in relative terms.

Johnny Lee wrote: Also take a look at the unemployment figures and GDP figures for Norway, Iceland, Greeenland, Switzerland.

OK lets look at GDP figures of these countries then from say 1970 to 2014 shall we ?

https://www.google.com.cy/publicdata/ex ... &ind=false

So your point is ? Oh yes I remember now, your point is you do not care about facts. You know what you know regardless of such small details like fatcs.

Johnny Lee wrote:Too many selfish people who are only interested in their own gain.

What nonsense is this now ? Are you seriously suggesting that your position is one motivated by altruism and not your perception of what is best for you ?

woodspeckie · Post by **woodspeckie** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 10:19 am

A standing ovation for Boris at the end of the BBC debate last night when he said "the 24th can be our Independence Day"

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 10:55 am

Erol a few simple questions . try to answer them honestly without using your internet stats.

If we as a race had come to TRNC. ( I take it you are Turk.Cyp.).

Would it have been OK for us to arrive with nothing (except a top of the range mobile) and expect TRNC to provide for us ?

Would it also be OK for us to come here and use your health service free of charge without ever contributing to it ?

Can we come here and organise crime of various categories, the when we get caught would your Legal service provide for us F.O.C. ?

How do you feel about the stoning yesterday of British cars returning from Euro 2016 and the chaos in Calais and the gangs of immigrants shouting F--k the UK .

What are your thoughts on the mass gangs of mainly healthy young men clinging onto lorries etc etc.to try to get into the UK.?

Also Is there maybe a hidden agenda with some people . IE . G.B stays in and Turkey get membership. Hey Ho. here we go.

Even when I walk around Girne harbour the amount of youngsters Waiters etc. who talk about London as if it was the Holy Grail. They all seem to know about the NHS. I have been in parts of the world were people know only things about the UK, Manchester United and The Free Health service.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 11:49 am

Well said Johnie, for us to live here we have to prove we can support ourselves, don't have any disease, and if we wanted to work we would have to jump through hoops, I don't object to any of that, in fact it's quite sensible. So why when I say that I believe it should be the same in the UK am I branded a racist or xenophobic.
I am all for immigrants going to the UK who have a job and pay into the system, but does anyone really believe that the hundreds of young men who are fighting to get from Calais are all looking for work, and why the UK, they must have passed through many countries on their journey , I think we know the answer to that.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 12:02 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:Erol a few simple questions . try to answer them honestly without using your internet stats.

You mean please answer your questions without using any reference to actual credible evidence, as you do ?

Johnny Lee wrote:If we as a race had come to TRNC. ( I take it you are Turk.Cyp.).

Let's be clear here and not be coy about it. You as a 'race' DID come here, not just to the TRNC but to Cyprus. You came here as foreign rulers and owners of Cyprus. Nor is this 'ancient history', this is in my mothers and father life times. At the time my father and mother left Cyprus to make their lives in the UK, the UK authorities in Cyprus were executing Cypriots for rebelling against foreign British colonial rule of their country. What is more your (our) 'race' STILL to this day OWN 250 odd square kilometres of Cyprus as 'sovereign territory'. So no need for any 'hypothetical if's' on this question. Your (our) race DID come here and we saw and experienced first hand what that meant to us as Cypriots and our Country.

For the record I am as British as you, by birth (was born in London), by parentage (my Mother is British), by citizenship (I hold a current valid British passport). I am also more Cypriot than you, by residency (I live in Cyprus), by parentage (my Father was Cypriot) and by Citizenship (I hold a TRNC Kimlik card).

Johnny Lee wrote:Would it have been OK for us to arrive with nothing (except a top of the range mobile) and expect TRNC to provide for us ?

Certainly more OK than arriving as colonial rulers and using that to rule us for 80 odd years and then take in perpetuitity 250 square kms of our country for your own sovereign use, i would suggest.

Johnny Lee wrote:Would it also be OK for us to come here and use your health service free of charge without ever contributing to it ?

I believe in a nationalised Health service that provides care according to need and funds it according to ability to do so. I do not want a nationalised health service that only provides care in direct relation to how much a given person has contributed to that service prior to that care being provided and denies it on the same basis.

Johnny Lee wrote:Can we come here and organise crime of various categories, the when we get caught would your Legal service provide for us F.O.C. ?

Even ignoring the 'crime' of having come here as colonial rulers of this country and stealing for yourselves (ourselves) a significant chunk of the country, some Brits HAVE come here and have got involved in crime of various categories and some have been caught and as a result 'provided for' (locked up in jail) 'free of charge'. What I deny is that such behaviour is typical of Brits who have come here, because such just is not true, just as it is not true that such behaviour is typical of those people that have emigrated to the UK, be they EU citizens or not.

Johnny Lee wrote:What are your thoughts on the mass gangs of mainly healthy young men clinging onto lorries etc etc.to try to get into the UK.?

I think it shows that trying to construct and maintain a world based around free markets and movement of capital whilst denying the free movement of people / labour is a form of tyranny that whilst different in form from that of colonialism is not different in intent and purpose, namely to try and ensure that those who have the most keep it and expand their share of it at the expense of those that have the least.

Johnny Lee wrote:Also Is there maybe a hidden agenda with some people . IE . G.B stays in and Turkey get membership. Hey Ho. here we go.

Back with the conspiracy theories and 'insinuations' again I see. I support the UK remaining in the EU because I believe on balance doing so is best for the people of the UK and the people of Europe. If Turkey did not exist I would still believe this. I am also in favour of Turkey being integrated into the EU because I think doing so would be good for the people of Turkey.

Johnny Lee wrote:Even when I walk around Girne harbour the amount of youngsters Waiters etc. who talk about London as if it was the Holy Grail. They all seem to know about the NHS. I have been in parts of the world were people know only things about the UK, Manchester United and The Free Health service.

Yeah it is the 'holy grail' for them to go there so they can set up prostitution and drug syndicates all whilst getting their health care for free. Pah !

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 12:11 pm

elizabeth wrote:Well said Johnie, for us to live here we have to prove we can support ourselves, don't have any disease, and if we wanted to work we would have to jump through hoops, I don't object to any of that, in fact it's quite sensible. So why when I say that I believe it should be the same in the UK am I branded a racist or xenophobic.

You are not branded as racist or xenophobic for saying this. What might brand you as such is making out that non EU immigrants can just enter the UK to live and or work, willy nilly, without any restriction or requirement to prove they will be able to support themselves or health checks or 'jumping through hoops'. Such might brand you as xenophobic because it is just not true.

elizabeth wrote:I am all for immigrants going to the UK who have a job and pay into the system, ....

but apparently Johnny Lee is not for such ? (my emphasis)

Johnny Lee wrote:Stop all immigration now and get out of the EU

.

thornaby · Post by **thornaby** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 12:26 pm

Interesting piece on the Daily Express Web site, how the n.h.s could be under threat due to the TTIP agreement. The idiot Cameron is still saying how he can control immigration. The man is either totally bonkers or takes the electorate for a bunch of fools. Take back our sovereignty and leave this madhouse.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 12:34 pm

thornaby wrote:Interesting piece on the Daily Express Web site, how the n.h.s could be under threat due to the TTIP agreement. The idiot Cameron is still saying how he can control immigration. The man is either totally bonkers or takes the electorate for a bunch of fools. Take back our sovereignty and leave this madhouse.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2 ... 154617.pdf

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 2:24 pm

Erol from some of your comments going back in history , I think it is fairly evident that deep down you are holding some sort of serious Grudge. Also you did not answer any of my questions. I am not looking for reasons and excuses dating back hundreds of years. I am looking for serious and genuine answers from a person and not a computer / internet stat.

In fact what you have done is to try and waffle around them, a bit like a politician on a talk show who keeps rattling on to avoid the actual issue.

Getting back to the Grudge or maybe the wrong word but whatever there seems to be some issues. once at my Catholic junior school a 9 year old Irish lad said to me , Remember Waterford. (can't say I do)

However I do agree with you and I am far from proud of what my ancestors did, riding rough shod all over the world thinking we can own everything. I do beleive that this as caused a certain amount of bitterness throughout the world towards us.

Kieth Caley, sorry you asked me about the Pen business re. Referendum. To be honest I had one or 2 G &Ts. But I think there was lots on U Tube a friend showed me on his phone. But Old eyes, G & Ts. and small phones sometimes confuse me.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 3:29 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:Erol from some of your comments going back in history , I think it is fairly evident that deep down you are holding some sort of serious Grudge.

Well you clearly think lots of things are 'fairly evident' but that alone for me does not mean you are right. You started a discussion with "If we as a race (Brits) had come to TRNC." In response to that I pointed out that you in fact had 'as a race' come to Cyprus. No 'ifs' about it. If you think pointing out this uncomfortable truth to you is evidently holding a grudge then so be it.

Johnny Lee wrote: Also you did not answer any of my questions.

And you think you have answered questions I have put to you ?

Johnny Lee wrote:I am not looking for reasons and excuses dating back hundreds of years.

British rule in Cyprus did not end hundreds of years ago. It did not even start 'hundreds' (plural) of years ago It ended a mere 56 years ago. A mere 15 years before the speech by Peter Shore that you happily referred to yourself. As I have also already pointed out the fact that the UK to this day retains 250 odd square kilometres of Cyprus as sovereign British territory is not 'ancient history'. That is a reality today.

Johnny Lee wrote:I am looking for serious and genuine answers from a person and not a computer / internet stat.

And I have done my best to provide that. I make no apology for the fact that I actually take the time and trouble to support my claims with credible cited evidence. That you appear to think doing so is just cause for you to therefore not consider what I have said and to just write it off as being from a 'computer' or the 'internet' or a 'politician' is your problem not mine.

Johnny Lee wrote:In fact what you have done is to try and waffle around them, a bit like a politician on a talk show who keeps rattling on to avoid the actual issue.

And your constant 'playing the man, not the ball' approach to this discussion is aimed at addressing the actual issues rather than avoiding them is it ?

Johnny Lee wrote:Getting back to the Grudge or maybe the wrong word but whatever there seems to be some issues. once at my Catholic junior school a 9 year old Irish lad said to me , Remember Waterford. (can't say I do)

And did you start a conversation with him along the lines of 'If my race had come to Ireland and ....' ? If you had then it might well have been a valid response from him to point out that your race HAD come to Ireland and what they had done there, even as far back as the 16 hundreds.

Johnny Lee wrote:However I do agree with you and I am far from proud of what my ancestors did, riding rough shod all over the world thinking we can own everything. I do beleive that this as caused a certain amount of bitterness throughout the world towards us.

Rest assured I hold no bitterness towards you as an individual for what your 'ancestors' did in Cyprus or around the world generally. I do hold some 'bitterness' towards your views as expressed here when you insist that it is an evident fact that 'immigrants are the cause of increased crime in the UK', and dismiss any and all actual evidence presented to you that suggests otherwise and then you label me as something other than a 'person', or a computer, or worse still a 'politician', for daring to present actual evidence, all whilst you also accuse me of not addressing the issue. That kind of behaviour by yourself, not your ancestors, I suggest, can lead to a degree of 'bitterness' on the part of those who are subjected to such.

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 5:49 pm

"Many of us have waited a lifetime to have our say. Our grandfathers fought with Enfields and bayonets. The mark of respect for their legacy, we now fight for their memory by putting a cross in the box marked leave.

We're not racist, we're not Little Englanders.

We're Great Britons and we want Great Britain back.

Back Brexit. Back Britain. Vote leave."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -back.html

BEWARE THE TWO FACES OF MERKAL AND HER SUPERSTATE

GET BRITAIN OUT VOTE LEAVE.

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 8:50 pm

It's unfortunate that Dominic Peacock, a member of the East Riding of Yorkshire Council, has been rather tactless...
Diverting attention from documented facts and data (?) - and guesses and suppositions due to lack of precedent (!) is not a recommended way to accomplish one's aims.... even more once it reaches the national media....

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 22 Jun 2016 9:35 pm

WotNoDeeds wrote: BEWARE THE TWO FACES OF MERKAL AND HER SUPERSTATE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

pretty much have ignored your succession of poster rhetoric so far WotNoDeeds, as it is not discussion and not even an attempt at discussion. However for me this latest attempt to draw a line of continuity between Hitler's Nazi Germany and Germany today under Angela Merkel, is to me pretty disgusting to be honest. 'The UK should leave the EU because Germany are Nazi's' is about as low as the 'argument' for leave can go I would say.

Sandman · Post by **Sandman** » Thu 23 Jun 2016 12:50 am

Ex-pats whether they be in Cyprus or elsewhere are always nett contributors to the country in which they choose to live !!??
They integrate seamlessly by learning the language and do all they can to rub along with their chosen countrymen/women never criticising how the place is run, the standard of driving, the number of "less welcome" immigrants who are growing in numbers and likely to create a crime wave as they have in England-or any other aspect of their adopted surroundings.
Unlike the millions of immigrants who flock to England, contribute to the economy, are often made unwelcome for one reason or another - particularly their religion, are a drain on housing, the economy,schools, the NHS and whatever else you care to mention.
If it isn't the immigrants who are at fault it is the Germans for looking after their industries and having a stronger economy than a country which has sold everything off to the highest bidder- or the French who have the balls to stand up for their beliefs.
Keep up the good work chaps working to make Britain great again - all you are doing is showing how pathetic some elements of it has become!!

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Thu 23 Jun 2016 4:00 am

erol wrote:
WotNoDeeds wrote: BEWARE THE TWO FACES OF MERKAL AND HER SUPERSTATE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

pretty much have ignored your succession of poster rhetoric so far WotNoDeeds, as it is not discussion and not even an attempt at discussion. However for me this latest attempt to draw a line of continuity between Hitler's Nazi Germany and Germany today under Angela Merkel, is to me pretty disgusting to be honest. 'The UK should leave the EU because Germany are Nazi's' is about as low as the 'argument' for leave can go I would say.

Well the stay campaign tactic of trying to confuse 'leave' votes by starting a rumour claiming the referendum was now to be held over two days because the polling stations couldn't cope - with only 'stay' voters to vote today and leave voters tomorrow is outrageous!

We were told this by some visitors staying with a friend last night and they seemed to think it was true.... an obvious ruse to have the leave vote numbers reduced....

mickhm · Post by **mickhm** » Thu 23 Jun 2016 9:01 am

I got that on my facebook this morning complete with authentic looking BBC news logo

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