Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

The first person they interview in this clip thinks that all immigrants come from the EU

Kind of scary

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/e ... 2c563937ff

Kind of stupid... but finding some stupid people is in itself not particularly clever either.... I bet if you interviewed some remain voters you'd soon find some with equally bizarre reasons - like believing all the tales of imminent doom, war etc. spouted by the propagandists... but that wouldn't suit the narrative of the losing lobby would it?

I dont take a lot of notice of the Huffington Post to be honest. I agree with Groucho, selective interviewing no doubt.

Very sad,
Ignorance prevails in the minds of many.

It is really tragic that so many people seemed to think the referendum about membership of the EU was a referendum on immigration - wherever from , For serious people who love their native country (wherever they chose to live) the referendum was about

(a( whether we wanted Britain's centuries of tradition and culture , including legal and local government, as well as things like food, to be overrun by bureaucrats from other countries

(b) having observed as I have , including in a previous existance in the UK struggling to cope with EU so called "legislation" how the incredibly confabulated and incomprehensible regulations have placed a stranglehold on small business and particularly on manual trades where people by tradition are high skilled but not educated to spend half their lives filling up forms to keep EU staff in gainful employment Plus the sheer wastage of the EUs agricultural policies.

(c) The excessively high salaries and other "perks" granted to diplomats and politicians and member countres including who have failed in their own countries and now achieved a gold plated haven in the EU.

If I cant benefit myself from my NI contributions over a lifetimes' hard work or my continuing Income Tax payments, I would rather see it go to the benefit going to needy people from a less wealthy country than contributing to failed pM's luxury retirement.

How true Ragged Robin.

Ragged Robin
Certainly agree with your comment upon Immigration.
Younger voters were decidedly REMAIN because of their reasoned attitude to tolerance and integration.
You will be aware that many youngsters are very cross about the way that the non working and pensioners have taken the stance that you reference t in the opening paragraph of your post.

Ask them to go onto utube and put in paulo Bernard it is in subtitles called "the truth about Brexit". Really informative,all about finances.

Oddly enough, of all my neighbours (~30 households), almost all the "pensioners" (or near) favoured remaining, while the 25-45 group (no teens here) were strongly in the leave group....

jofra wrote:Oddly enough, of all my neighbours (~30 households), almost all the "pensioners" (or near) favoured remaining, while the 25-45 group (no teens here) were strongly in the leave group....

Certainly an exception to the demographics which are now extensively published.
There will always be exceptions of course.
What is your view Jofra upon the 16-18 group that were excluded and are now clearly rather cross.
I invite your comments.

A rather long-winded (and evasive!) answer -
With the greatest respect, my views are and probably are best to remain my own, because views - and opinions - are coloured and affected by personal experience, rather than being pure and unadulterated data. For example, I started work at the age of 15, but could not vote until I was 21. I could have fought (and died) for my country before I could vote, I could drive before I could drink (or vote), although in certain circumstances this has now changed; I could get married at 16 (although the age regarding parental consent has changed and depended on location)...
My current age may possibly also (unjustly?) colour my views as to whether the younger ages should be allowed to/are capable of voting in a responsible manner on important issues.....
Sorry, but I intend to strictly abstain on this point.....

But it is obvious that the majority voted for the right reasons. Saying that it is quite reasonable to also say that those that voted to remain also voted for the wrong reasons.......

RAZR63 wrote:But it is obvious that the majority voted for the right reasons. Saying that it is quite reasonable to also say that those that voted to remain also voted for the wrong reasons.......

Good point thank you

Of course young people should have been allowed to vote, it is their future, not ours, the outcome will have little or no effect on pensioners particularly if you do not even live in the UK

niceone wrote:Of course young people should have been allowed to vote, it is their future, not ours, the outcome will have little or no effect on pensioners particularly if you do not even live in the UK

Absolutely agree.
16-18 yrs old should have the vote.
Many are in college or working in the economy as employees. They have a proper and fair right to vote on their future.

My granddaughter starts a university course in September 100% funded by the EU
She burst into tears when she she heard the outcome, she does not know if they will now pay for the full 3 years

I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?
Rudyard Kipling

niceone wrote:My granddaughter starts a university course in September 100% funded by the EU
She burst into tears when she she heard the outcome, she does not know if they will now pay for the full 3 years

I hope she's not going to study economics.

If you pay a 100 pounds into a club and they give you 25 pounds back to spend on something, they are not funding anything for you, you are paying for it a 4 times the costs.

Time for the nation of spoon fed millennials to stand on their own two feet as the population did before them.

As for those that voted for the wrong reason, this is the danger of giving the vote to those that are not capable enough, and believe me, a walk down any high street in the UK and you are surrounded by them!

My out vote was based on democracy or the lack of it. I find it ironic that following the vote , some people want to ignore the views of the majority and want a second referendum. Do these people keep demanding more votes until it goes their way?

thornaby wrote:My out vote was based on democracy or the lack of it. I find it ironic that following the vote , some people want to ignore the views of the majority and want a second referendum. Do these people keep demanding more votes until it goes their way?

Thornby
Thank you
Whilst I doubt a second referendum will take place.
The sound on the ground is primarily from the younger demographic, Social media is awash with discontent from youngsters that feel sold down the river. In particular the 16-18yr age group may of whom are in work, at college or otherwise within the Uk economy have been excluded from the vote based upon their age alone.
Is this fair and is it right that these youngsters have indeed been failed?

waz-24-7 wrote: The sound on the ground is primarily from the younger demographic, Social media is awash with discontent from youngsters that feel sold down the river. In particular the 16-18yr age group may of whom are in work, at college or otherwise within the Uk economy have been excluded from the vote based upon their age alone.
Is this fair and is it right that these youngsters have indeed been failed?

Do you mean exactly as the people my age were the last time there was a EU referendum?

waz-24-7 wrote:

niceone wrote:Of course young people should have been allowed to vote, it is their future, not ours, the outcome will have little or no effect on pensioners particularly if you do not even live in the UK

Absolutely agree.
16-18 yrs old should have the vote.
Many are in college or working in the economy as employees. They have a proper and fair right to vote on their future.

Not a chance.

An equal number are NOT working in the economy and even if they are they have zero understanding of...well, anything in the real world since they aren't even in it yet. All living with mummy and daddy getting their clothes washed for them and dinner made for them, let them shape your country? You must be joking.

No offence but according to Niceone's logic you should allow 2-16 year olds to vote too, because it is their future as well .

It was reported before the referendum that under 25 age group would more likely vote IN based on data from the likes of Mori You Gov polsters, from these figures they extrapulated university cities would vote Remain .
If you stayed up to watch the results the first shock and indicator of how the night would go was when Newcastle voted Remain with a smaller than expected majority
Yesterday according to Labour party using the same extrapulated formula 7 out of 10 labour voters voted Remain, so the second shock on the night was how many Tory/Liberal or BNP pensioners live in Sunderland.

wondering1 wrote:

waz-24-7 wrote:

niceone wrote:Of course young people should have been allowed to vote, it is their future, not ours, the outcome will have little or no effect on pensioners particularly if you do not even live in the UK

Absolutely agree.
16-18 yrs old should have the vote.
Many are in college or working in the economy as employees. They have a proper and fair right to vote on their future.

Not a chance.

An equal number are NOT working in the economy and even if they are they have zero understanding of...well, anything in the real world since they aren't even in it yet. All living with mummy and daddy getting their clothes washed for them and dinner made for them, let them shape your country? You must be joking.

No offence but according to Niceone's logic you should allow 2-16 year olds to vote too, because it is their future as well .

Wondering 1
These are the young people that are the future of the UK,
2 yr olds voting is ridiculous. The critical age is 16 yrs,
16 -18 yr olds are on the path to prosperity and success. Many have done their GCSEs and may be in college, starting work or are apprentices . These people are active by enlarge in the economy.
These youngsters are our future leaders, scientists, soldiers, doctors and world beaters.
Little wonder they are cross with the non working and elderly pensioner voters who have sold them down the river.

I agree Wondering 1.
Immigration should not have been a topic as in the UK there is 5% unemployment in the UK , There is only 4.4% unemployment in Boston UK, this town's population voted by a large majority to leave the UK . They may have houses next to them in multiple occupancy, but it is no different to living near a University. We have to wait in the Northern England 10 days to see a UK based doctor for a routine Doctor's appointment. The only reason anyone could complain about immigrants' children taking school places is if they are unable to speak English and are holding English children back due to it. Our children are placed in schools where there are places, not where we want to put them. A free vote should not have been called for. The majority of parliament were in favour of remaining. The Labour leadership did not rally their supporters, which in turn did not help matters.
Several students leaving 6th form this year have decided not to go to UNI as they say their studies would include a year in the country of their language choice. Erasmus is finished due to the uncertainties of Brexit. Perhaps the students will now learn English slang on street corners whilst looking for non-existent jobs, caused by Brexit. I have 2 in early twenties and one has already been told their firm will struggle if Brexit goes ahead. Another hard working friend of his just about to buy his first house with his girl friend has been told as she deals with Europe she will be made redundant if it happens. Their house is now on hold, whilst they and the buyer re-consider their options.

Absolutely spot on Sugarpuff.
It is fair that we accept the referendum result.
It not at all fair that we accept the aftermath of the result.

We are all now suffering for the poorly run REMAIN campaign. Even the BREXIT camp are in shock as the experts and advice now rings true.
I am fearful that no strategy or plan is even being discussed as every political party bar the far right are in melt down. The very UK that voted is now under real risk of break up. All self inflicted and for what? Independence day has died in its very short tracks. Black Friday continues for some time.
So what can be done?
At this moment hope and prepare for austerity like we have not seen for many years. Recession is almost inevitable. The UK growth forecast has already been downgraded today so I expect negative growth this quarter and ongoing.
The onset of racist hatred is much on the news tonight. I am saddened by this and fear for the future of UK politics as ultra right wing support gathers momentum.

We can only knuckle down and graft like we did in 2008. Many will lose their jobs , houses and the usual stuff. The resilient and hardy will survive and eventually prosper. Let there be no mistake the experts are indeed correct and hard times have been predicted. Some will maintain the scaremongering commentary. These are the most likely to fail and suffer and indeed deserve the most.

waz-24-7 wrote:Some will maintain the scaremongering commentary. These are the most likely to fail and suffer....

That's you is it not?

The saddest part of all this is that the scaremongering continues.

It is not all doom and gloom, its an opportunity which I am confident the UK will take and move forward.

It is not scaremongering! It is happening UK. My children are now feeling the brunt of this decision. In TRNC you are well removed from it all, but don't moan when the taxes go up on your pension and the pound falls further.

Groucho wrote:

waz-24-7 wrote:Some will maintain the scaremongering commentary. These are the most likely to fail and suffer....

That's you is it not?

Grouch,
No my forecast of almost immediate currency and market crash has come to ring true. If you would like to read back. No glory in reporting that just a real shame.
No need to argue on right or wrong here.
The UK is now in turmoil and our economy and currency has crashed. Our 40 year old triple A credit rating has been down graded. All for what?

Last week the UK was financially much better off . Was it not? You were told of this and now you ,like myself, will need to pay from your own pocket.
Only consolation for me is that I voted for prosperity. Unfortunately misery is on the horizon.
However,
Bit of better prospect as I have indicated on another topic is that a partial REMAIN is now rather more possible or even likely as politicians do what they do well. Let BREXIT think they have what they want when in fact they do not.

Mr Farage has disappeared into his independence pit of shame and is not making a song and dance. Boris is coming around saying we need not rush to exit EU. A stall upon article 50 is almost certain. Watch this space . General election at end of year will be the interesting one as parliament can put in place a change of course. The EU is now on front foot and I hope they will want to play ball. It is in their interest too.

Brexit: Facts Not Fear - a short film by Toby Young.

If anyone has 10 minutes to spare please do google this or search on facebook.

Very relevant before the referendum and still relevant after.

Is this really the type of organisation that we want to be a part of?

PoshinDevon wrote:Brexit: Facts Not Fear - a short film by Toby Young.

If anyone has 10 minutes to spare please do google this or search on facebook.

Very relevant before the referendum and still relevant after.

Is this really the type of organisation that we want to be a part of?

Posh
Are you just looking for reassurance upon your vote?

I will not list the facts of the past few days as they are now very clear.
We were all reliably informed and most chose to ignore the advice. Such a shame.
Sorry but watching any pre BREXIT video is frankly a waste of time.
We have moved on and unfortunately downwards!!
Bit late now but there is hope that things are not what they appear politically at least.

You have covered many topics on the forum, posting in your opinion reasons as to why the decision to leave was wrong.

Clearly you have not taken 10mins to watch this short video and have dismissed it as irrelevant and a waste of time.

Fine, that for me sums up your reasoning.

I did take the time to watch many videos, read articles, follow the news etc etc prior to the referendum. This video was one that stated facts and whilst the decision was still not easy.....after watching this my decision was made. I find it baffling how anyone can be be so quickly dismissive and would want to be part of an organisation which is run by people who in turn appoint unelected commisionaires who make laws and draft legislation which we have to comply with.

I am not looking for reassurance I have made the right decision, i know I have. On that note I will leave you to debate further.

Was it not Mr Junker who also refused to discuss Brexit!

Sugarpuffbear wrote:Was it not Mr Junker who also refused to discuss Brexit!

Sugarpuff,
Not sure on that but certainly we can expect some mixed reaction from other Union members.
Some will be brutal, some will seek gentle manoeuvring, and some will want active negotiation.

Europe has also taken an economic hit so the two schools of thought are:

Out quick and limit the damage at least to the EU.
Slowly slowly and seek ( hope for) partial BREXIT, holding onto common market access plus other bits

waz-24-7 wrote:Unfortunately misery is on the horizon.

So you are....

Groucho wrote:

waz-24-7 wrote:Unfortunately misery is on the horizon.

So you are....

Groucho,
Little more upbeat at moment as I think a semi BREXIT will possibly evolve out of the smoke and flames of last few days.

Sorry , but I bet champagne sales have ground to a halt these past few days.

waz-24-7 wrote:

Groucho wrote:

waz-24-7 wrote:Some will maintain the scaremongering commentary. These are the most likely to fail and suffer....

That's you is it not?

Grouch,
No my forecast of almost immediate currency and market crash has come to ring true. If you would like to read back. No glory in reporting that just a real shame.
No need to argue on right or wrong here.
The UK is now in turmoil and our economy and currency has crashed. Our 40 year old triple A credit rating has been down graded. All for what?

Last week the UK was financially much better off . Was it not? You were told of this and now you ,like myself, will need to pay from your own pocket.
Only consolation for me is that I voted for prosperity. Unfortunately misery is on the horizon.
However,
Bit of better prospect as I have indicated on another topic is that a partial REMAIN is now rather more possible or even likely as politicians do what they do well. Let BREXIT think they have what they want when in fact they do not.

Mr Farage has disappeared into his independence pit of shame and is not making a song and dance. Boris is coming around saying we need not rush to exit EU. A stall upon article 50 is almost certain. Watch this space . General election at end of year will be the interesting one as parliament can put in place a change of course. The EU is now on front foot and I hope they will want to play ball. It is in their interest too.

Wassock,

As you insist on incorrectly naming me I will return the favour....

'Your' forecast (like everything else you spout I don't believe any of it is actually your own idea - you simply quote others you, for some inexplicable reason, seem to hold in awe) of market crash has not come to ring true.... only an idiot would not see that the money men would take advantage of the situation to make a fast buck... but the markets will recover and the money men will make a further killing... that's the nature of these leeches.

The pound was bound to take a hit when the likes of Soros wielded their ability to control the exchange markets... anyone who does not see that has their head in the sand... they always win. That does not make the decision wrong -it means it is a short-term price worth paying

However you continue with your doom and gloom, recriminations and demonising of the older generation when you have only negative ideas... that's no surprise.

Last week the UK was tied in to paying the EU £350m per week ad infinitum for the pleasure of being dictated to.... so it was not much better off at all.

Waz, I think you've had a fair crack of the whip, you have expressed your opinion many times and also your disdain for those who think differently. Nothing you or anyone else may say will alter the result of the referendum, it's done and now we must all accept that and look forward to the challenges that will undoubtably come.
You've fought a good campaign for your cause but now you're just going over old ground and quite frankly getting boring.
It's time now for you to take your ball in because nobody wants to play.

elizabeth wrote:Waz, I think you've had a fair crack of the whip, you have expressed your opinion many times and also your disdain for those who think differently. Nothing you or anyone else may say will alter the result of the referendum, it's done and now we must all accept that and look forward to the challenges that will undoubtably come.
You've fought a good campaign for your cause but now you're just going over old ground and quite frankly getting boring.
It's time now for you to take your ball in because nobody wants to play.

Elizabeth,
Democracy continues, The debate has moved on from BREXIT.
The discussion now is what lays ahead for the UK.
Some very good and interesting debate continues. Thank you to all that are keen on real debate.
You are welcome to join and contribute if you wish.

If you are bored then please feel free to go away!!

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"

Nobody here seems to follow this..

Personally Iam fed up with the references to "non workers and pensioners". I may be a pensioner now, but I worked jolly hard, first for my education (which I got mainly be obtaining scholarships not because I had money) and later at various jobs, including studying for and starting a second career in my 50s. I paid Income Tax and am now paying on my main source of income and also paid up UK NI contributions, from neither of which have I had any benefit for at 20 years now and I find it insulting to be classed with "non workers, whoever they may be! Although it would have been against my own interests (as the value of my pension in sterling has decreased at least in the short term )I support Brexit and would have voted for it had I been quaifiedto do so.

As for votes for 16 year olds , that is quite ridiculous . Teenagers are notoriously led by their hormones and it is also part of their growing up that they feel to need to challenge authority and try out and exercise their mental "muscles". They are not sufficiently mature to make vital decisions nor have those of today yet had the opportunity to gain experience of life. Nor do they seem to me to have had the sort of general education which enables them to judge political situations - that is not of course their fault (nor do I like the situation where graduates have to start working life burdened with debt) but I dont see that enfranchising them so they can vote to stay in Europe will improve the situation rather make it worse. AS for being able to drink and die before qualifying to drive or vote - well that just means that the age limits for drinking and dying are too low, not that those for voting are too high.

I believe the European Union was seriously corrupt and it was way overdue for a shock to make people realise the damage it is doing. I am proud that my native country has been the one to show the way, and hope it will lead to the EU cleaning up its act for everyone's benefit . I also believe the UK can do better outside the EU , although I do have a major concern that we do not have sufficient politicians with integrity and commitment to the common interests to lead us into a new era.














That I now need to rest being older and in ill health does not mean that I should now be cast on the rubbish heap and my views disregarded in favour of wet behind the ears youngsters who know nothing of life except "clubbing".

I grew up in England devastated by war, I experiences times what "we never had it so good" and times of recession and unemployment and two years of civil war in Cyprus.I

It is ridiculous to say that 16 plus should have been allowed to vote. It is a medical fact that teenagers moods are hugely influenced by their hormones

Robin
Your comments reflect your old school attitudes that are simply out of date in the Modern world of the young.
The youth of today are dynamic open minded and the future of the UK and indeed the world. Why do you see fit to belittle them? They are future leaders, soldiers , teachers, politicians, scientists etc. It is fair and proper that they should be encouraged to succeed, prosper and seek their own destiny.

You have rather a backward view that is exactly what the UK does NOT need for a prosperous and successful future.
Your own experiences are clearly important to you.
You appear to have the "you owe me"" attitude towards the young. That is not fair or proper. The young seek peace in our time NOT war heroes,
Europe is at peace and long may it reign, The young value this peace, harmony and integration that you have not seen in your life.

I fully support our youngsters and I fully understand their disdain towards the non working and pensioners who think they know best for the future and have sold youngsters down the river. I would thoroughly recommend that you try and relate to and understand the new modern youth of the world. To denounce them as you have is just not acceptable to me and of course to them

waz-24-7 wrote:Robin
Your comments reflect your old school attitudes that are simply out of date in the Modern world of the young.

Waz, you really know how to patronise people... The modern (no need for the capital M) world belongs just as much to the over fifties as it does the young...

The idea that their youth means they know better and deserve more than the rest of the demographic is nonsensical...

Please don't thank me for my input - that is one of your very worst patronising habits... as in:-

"Thank for your contribution - which I will either ignore or belittle"

It seems as though you've awarded yourself chairman of all boardroom discussions status... It is not for you to say who will take part in the debate or not..

In the guise of interest in debate you continue to peddle your self-righteous position of being the font of all knowledge - well all your knowledge appears to be someone else's ideas. The prognosis of financial ruin and lack of opportunities for the young are all bunkum meant to continue the scare factor so that when the remain ideologues try and undo the result and force a reverse of the vote we will breath a collective sigh of relief...

It seems you'd rather make disaster a self-fulfilling prophecy by constantly re-iterating the scaremongering than work towards a united UK solution... The money men love people like you because uncertainty plays right into their wallets. Time to keep your powder dry? I can't see it happening

Groucho wrote:

waz-24-7 wrote:Robin
Your comments reflect your old school attitudes that are simply out of date in the Modern world of the young.

Waz, you really know how to patronise people... The modern (no need for the capital M) world belongs just as much to the over fifties as it does the young...

The idea that their youth means they know better and deserve more than the rest of the demographic is nonsensical...

Please don't thank me for my input - that is one of your very worst patronising habits... as in:-

"Thank for your contribution - which I will either ignore or belittle"

It seems as though you've awarded yourself chairman of all boardroom discussions status... It is not for you to say who will take part in the debate or not..

In the guise of interest in debate you continue to peddle your self-righteous position of being the font of all knowledge - well all your knowledge appears to be someone else's ideas. The prognosis of financial ruin and lack of opportunities for the young are all bunkum meant to continue the scare factor so that when the remain ideologues try and undo the result and force a reverse of the vote we will breath a collective sigh of relief...

It seems you'd rather make disaster a self-fulfilling prophecy by constantly re-iterating the scaremongering than work towards a united UK solution... The money men love people like you because uncertainty plays right into their wallets. Time to keep your powder dry? I can't see it happening

Groucho
Yes of course the over 50's have a say. They do and have.
The youngsters are the future and the 16-18 yr olds want a say and have been denied. That is not fair.
I am saddened that apparently most older people , including yourself, see fit to belittle the youth of our Country.

So... lets stop immigration and whilst we are at it export our youngsters into Europe where they can integrate and tolerate.

Perhaps the government will offer incentives to elderly ex pats to return to the mother land and assist in building walls of defense on the cliffs of Dover. The Modern world is not about the Older generation. It is about youthful ideas and designs, It is about peace , integration, tolerance and unity. Rather too much reference to history, War, war heroes and the good OLD days.
Which Ideology is best for the UK and the World?

Spot on Groucho...that's why most people have left the debate.

Be Polite Rudeness will not be tolerated. You may challenge others' points of view and
opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully without insult and personal attack. Any
member being intentionally unpleasant or disruptive will be banned without warning.

Above is extract from the Kibcom rules - it appears Waz has not read them, and I am surprised that (particularly since a Moderator appears to be following this thread) his attacks on anyone whose views differ from his have been tolerated.

If someone can only cope with views that differ from theirs by making personal attacks and insults, not only it is extremely bad manners,, but it indicated an inadequate intellect and a damaged personality.

Your post addressed to me is totally inaccurate and shows you have not even bothered to read it. and I have better things to do than waste time correcting you in detail. One point, however, it is not the older people who have a "you owe me" attitude to the young , it is quite the other way roun in most cases I have experienced and observed (there always are of course, exceptions to every rule).
You might also bear in mind the long term permanent residents who fund their own health care here, despite having contributed in the UK are actually subsidizing those who stay at home and have access to NHS and other Government and Social Services.

I didnt "denounce youngsters" I simply stated that teenagers had insufficient judgement, experience and (sadly these days) education to vote on such a vital issue to all sectors of the community - I for one woudnt have had at age 16, and I doubt anyone who has an honest view of themselves wouldclaim to have had.

Robin
I absolutely assure you that no malice or intent is intended, If you seek apology then . I apologise.
The subject or BREXIT is very emotive for millions of people including myself.
I appear to be very much the in the minority in these debates (on this forum)and subjected to some rudeness and lack of respect of the type you refer to.
I am rather thick skinned and able to deal with such things. I was born with no silver spoon I can assure you. I have been very fortunate to date and I feel privileged and lucky to be where I am today.
There are many opinions viewed on the BREXIT subject and the aftermath. Many posts are, I think rather misguided. The tone has changed last few days as fact has taken over the hearsay. This has created some bizarre statements that search for credibility . Desperation to be proven right is the goal of BREXIT. I am merely contesting this, sometimes heated ? yes. That is debate.
As most members are indeed more mature there is a very clear old school view. As you know, I do not agree that this view is best for the UK. I expect continued attack upon my minority ( on this forum) view but given the current hand of cards we have the future remains as the experts and I have predicted.
I continue to debate until proven otherwise. Humble pie is no issue for me. Others I feel are more reluctant to admit error.

All older people were young once and most older people believe they are wiser now than they were then

And another saying to which I (although an oldie) subscribe -
"As age increases, waists often widen as minds narrow...."
(but then, some say, "keep an open mind - and others will fill it with rubbish..." - you just can't win!)

waz-24-7 wrote: Yes of course the over 50's have a say. They do and have.
The youngsters are the future and the 16-18 yr olds want a say and have been denied. That is not fair.
I am saddened that apparently most older people , including yourself, see fit to belittle the youth of our Country.

So... lets stop immigration and whilst we are at it export our youngsters into Europe where they can integrate and tolerate.

Perhaps the government will offer incentives to elderly ex pats to return to the mother land and assist in building walls of defense on the cliffs of Dover. The Modern world is not about the Older generation. It is about youthful ideas and designs, It is about peace , integration, tolerance and unity. Rather too much reference to history, War, war heroes and the good OLD days.
Which Ideology is best for the UK and the World?

You really are reaching too far Waz - it would seem, well beyond your capacity for reasoned argument... It's not only the young who are the future - lots of other age groups have plenty to contribute too - OK for you to write yourself off but please don't bestow moribund status to the rest of us simply on the basis of age.