Goodbye to the Cyprus Solution!

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 12:05 pm

An assurance given by President Nicos Anastasiades to the self-styled Mayor of Morfou (Guzelyurt), Charalambos Pittas that “the Cyprus problem cannot be solved without the return of Morfou ” and that he has stated this clearly to Turkish Cypriot leader Mustafa Akinci, has brought about a series of reactions.

According to Turkish Cypriot daily Diyalog, the Turkish Cypriot mayor of Guzelyurt (Morfou), Mahmut Ozcinar and a number of organisations in the area have responded to this statement.

Coming to the return of Morphou (Guzelyurt), their policy on Morfou has been continuing for many years. It must be known that this place is not the Morfou of 1974. Investments have been made, it has been developed. And our citizens who came afterwards and were given property of equal value, settled here by leaving their property in the south. They turned this place into their homeland and rebuilt their lives here. They were born here, they died here. From a humanitarian point of view, this wish [of the Greek Cypriots] cannot be granted. In a possible referendum the entire people, not only Morfou, must clearly understand what will happen and make their decision accordingly.”

Meanwhile, Turkish Cypriot daily Yeni Duzen newspaper reports that Prime Minister Huseyin Ozgurgun, has also referred to the issue in his Twitter account. He said: “The president of the Greek Cypriot administration Anastasiades said that there could never be a solution without giving back Morfou. This is a reply to those calling 2016 as the year of the solution. My reply is: Morfou can never be returned”.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 12:23 pm

All this was equally applicable in 2004. The population of Morfu had settled there since 1974 and had invested in their new homes for 30 years and yet the very people who live in Morfu voted to give it back. So did the rest of TC community including the settlers in 2004. Turkish Cypriots were ready to make compromises and have peace. In the meantime the Turkish Cypriots have elected the most progressive and peace minded President to represent them in the talks. This is a typical media against peace ploy to stir up and muddy the waters.

Hopefully by the end of this year we shall have a negotiated peace agreement for which the Turkish Cypriots will vote. Those who have property in the south have noting to fear from any negotiated settlement. Their property in the south is worth a lot more than what they were given in the north.

Mr Ozgurgun can go and take running jump into the new dam to cool down. The Turkish Cypriots will get their chance to vote and will be reasonable one more time in their assessment of what compromises are needed for peace. Electing Mr Akinci instead of Mr Eroglu in the last presidential election shows exactly where the Turkish Cypriot Community is regarding peace.

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 12:29 pm

Erol where are you?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 1:44 pm

Peace ?... Isn't that something that's been on the Island since 1974 ?

What ever happened to the "No Preconditions" and "Blank piece of paper" when the talks restarted some time ago.

trooper · Post by **trooper** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 1:48 pm

Lurucinali; What's the weather like on Planet Zog? I have to assume that's where you are.

As someone has already asked, where are you Erol - can usually expect a cogent and informed post - whereas I tend to get cross at some of this stuff.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 3:53 pm

Peace you say since 1974, really? Was that from Oxford dictionary? Since when has ceasefire been the same as peace. As to blank pieces of paper, certainly we had a blank piece of paper to start with but we have come along way since Akinci was elected. It is amazing what can be achieved when both sides want peace, we now have an agreed position of what is acceptable to either side and what remains not-agreed. Both on one piece of paper I may add. We have never been to this point at any time in the last 53 years. So be prepared for some enlightenment as to how the peace agreement will affect you. Not far to go now. There is an old saying "Okuzu yedik ve gurugu galdi".

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 4:18 pm

Lurucinali wrote:Peace you say since 1974, really? Was that from Oxford dictionary? Since when has ceasefire been the same as peace. As to blank pieces of paper, certainly we had a blank piece of paper to start with but we have come along way since Akinci was elected. It is amazing what can be achieved when both sides want peace, we now have an agreed position of what is acceptable to either side and what remains not-agreed. Both on one piece of paper I may add. We have never been to this point at any time in the last 53 years. So be prepared for some enlightenment as to how the peace agreement will affect you. Not far to go now. There is an old saying "Okuzu yedik ve gurugu galdi".

You talk of peace, and compromise, you must live on a different island to me
The demands, all Turkish troops out, all settlers returned, Guzelyurt returned, Varosha returned, Rotating Presidency, not acceptable to the GC,s, accept help to fight fires on the South, on their terms, and only water from the South to be used, boycott any sporting events involving TC,s, I could go on for ever.

Deniz1 · Post by **Deniz1** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 4:42 pm

From his profile the island he lives on is Great Britain.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 5:07 pm

Deniz1 wrote:From his profile the island he lives on is Great Britain.

I thought it might be Fantasy Island

rocking · Post by **rocking** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 7:46 pm

Wanted to reply, but Elizabeth has said it for me.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 8:50 pm

Listen to what Akinci says, the talks are moving froward, I grant you slowly but never the less forward. We have made more advances in the last 3 months than we have had for the last 40 odd years.
What are you worried about?
Why are you so afraid of Greek Cypriots?
Were any of you in CYprus between 1963 and 1974?

I suspect not.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 9:00 pm

Yes, '71 - '74 with GB sitting on their fat arises watching genocide occurring. I was then, and remain so now, ashamed of my government's inaction as a 'guarantor power.' The previous actions of Greek Cypriots towards Turkish Cypriots from the '50s onwards, despite what your nation's re-written history states, and the RoC's determination to take back hard-working territory, belies the under current of suspicion. You have your view and I have mine.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 9:07 pm

tomsteel wrote:Yes, '71 - '74 with GB sitting on their fat arises watching genocide occurring. I was then, and remain so now, ashamed of my government's inaction as a 'guarantor power.' The previous actions of Greek Cypriots towards Turkish Cypriots from the '50s onwards, despite what your nation's re-written history states, and the RoC's determination to take back hard-working territory, belies the under current of suspicion. You have your view and I have mine.

Absolutely and there will be a vote. And of course we are democratic are we not?

There were also Australian soldiers in Cyprus in the bases n 1974 and they were advised officially to hide under their beds.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 9:20 pm

elizabeth wrote:
Lurucinali wrote:Peace you say since 1974, really? Was that from Oxford dictionary? Since when has ceasefire been the same as peace. As to blank pieces of paper, certainly we had a blank piece of paper to start with but we have come along way since Akinci was elected. It is amazing what can be achieved when both sides want peace, we now have an agreed position of what is acceptable to either side and what remains not-agreed. Both on one piece of paper I may add. We have never been to this point at any time in the last 53 years. So be prepared for some enlightenment as to how the peace agreement will affect you. Not far to go now. There is an old saying "Okuzu yedik ve gurugu galdi".
You talk of peace, and compromise, you must live on a different island to me
The demands, all Turkish troops out, all settlers returned, Guzelyurt returned, Varosha returned, Rotating Presidency, not acceptable to the GC,s, accept help to fight fires on the South, on their terms, and only water from the South to be used, boycott any sporting events involving TC,s, I could go on for ever.

And yet you guys claim we have had peace. Like hell we have.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 9:28 pm

Most unlikely that Guzelyurt will feature in any forthcoming settlement. It did in the Anan plan of 2004 but the Greek side declined to accept the deal. Bad decision I think. The region, which is one of the most potentially productive ( agriculture) areas on the whole island is is very much neglected with poor productivity, attention and husbandry. As is generally the case. The indigenous population have become far to accustomed to Turkish benefit payments. The gravy train is well and truly running for a minority of wealthy Turkish Cypriots. This group of people are not interested in a settlement. Why should they. Result. A highly unmotivated indigenous population that squabble over simple things. The Government, administration, law system, bureaucracy and officialdom reflect a country that has no duty of care or responsibility to its people, economy or indeed anything.
However it is a wonderful place with plenty of positives, some wonderful people and places and of course climate.
Do I want a settlement? Probably not.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 9:44 pm

Do you really understand the consequences of no solution?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 10:06 pm

Lurucinali wrote:Do you really understand the consequences of no solution?

Absence of a solution will maintain the isolation of the TRNC. The TRNC will remain on benefits. The Turkish army will remain.
Turkey will not secure entry to the EU. Northern Cyprus will remain rather backward and undeveloped. The economy will remain subdued and essentially stagnant. Turkish Cypriots will travel south to secure European passports to secure the benefits. The Administration, legal system, bureaucracy, will remain poor, inadequate and dysfunctional in many respects. Property demand and prices will remain very low.
The UN will continue to mediate discussions with little effect. The ROC will continue to veto everything they can and will complain with vigour at every opportunity. Indigenous, administration employees will continue upon the gravy train of Turkish benefit handouts and investment whilst complaining about mainland Turks as immigrants. The region will continue to provide a haven for European criminals. The Island will maintain its status as battleship Cyprus. Listening stations and monitoring stations will continue to abound.
All This but peace in our time.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 10:23 pm

The talks will not continue on the same basis, they will start talking about division and there will be no need for any referendums. Northen Cyprus will end up as another province of Turkey and not even god will be able to help us from then on.

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 10:30 pm

tomsteel wrote:Yes, '71 - '74 with GB sitting on their fat arises watching genocide occurring. I was then, and remain so now, ashamed of my government's inaction as a 'guarantor power.' The previous actions of Greek Cypriots towards Turkish Cypriots from the '50s onwards, despite what your nation's re-written history states, and the RoC's determination to take back hard-working territory, belies the under current of suspicion. You have your view and I have mine.

So tell us about the genocide that was occurring in the 1970s, give us an independent source that verifies the figures of casualties. Tell us which community kicked the other out of their homes first and who committed the first inter-communal massacre.
During the earlier "genocide" the TCs didn't exactly sit on their fat arses, in fact considering they were outnumbered four to one they "genocided" the GCs quite well themselves. "According to official records, 364 Turkish Cypriots and 174 Greek Cypriots were killed during the 1963-1964 crisis." Oberling, Pierre. The road to Bellapais (1982), Social Science Monographs, p.120:

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 07 Jul 2016 10:39 pm

Lurucinali wrote:The talks will not continue on the same basis, they will start talking about division and there will be no need for any referendums. Northen Cyprus will end up as another province of Turkey and not even god will be able to help us from then on.

I do not think Turkey will enforce any type of inclusion into the motherland. The EU for one would be in uproar led by the ROC. The UN will certainly have make some rather loud noises.
Turkey would risk severe sanctions against their economy and status. The risk is just too high.
My view is that Turkey would support a bizonal bi communal solution giving Turkish Cypriots close political and cultural connection to the motherland.

I do not think either side can see any distinct advantage in a solution right now. The North continues to enjoys the Turkish handouts and benefits whilst the South will not accept any compromise on the property issue.

Deniz1 · Post by **Deniz1** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 3:45 am

How can you say under developed with new hotels springing up like mad everywhere high rise apartment blocks too.Rows of new shops albeit unoccupied at present. Fancy new cars everywhere. In the 15 years i have lived here things have changed dramatically. Do either of you actually live here?

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 6:59 am

Soner what is your view?

MoBry · Post by **MoBry** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 8:22 am

My husband was in Famagusta as an army child while his father served in North Africa. He said even then the Greek-Cypriots treated Turkish-Cypriots like dirt. He was also here in the '50s and said the same thing - the motto of Eoka was "First the British, then the Turkish-Cypriots", meaning evict them from Cyprus. If you want a good account, read "The Genocide Files" which documents the war against Turkish-Cypriots instigated by Greek-Cypriots. Don't forget that the Greek government sent an invasion force of Greek armed forces, although that's been conveniently wiped from history. It would be great for Cyprus to reach a solution but it will require concessions from the Greek Cypriots and not demands which are obviously unobtainable through their intransigence.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 9:13 am

Lurucinali, In answer to your question "Were any of you in CYprus between 1963 and 1974? I suspect not.", I first came to Cyprus in Apr 1965 as a member of the British Military, I came again in 1969 through till 1974 - so my answer is yes! You also ask "Why are you so afraid of Greek Cypriots? ", what makes you think I am?

I am not afraid of them but I certainly do not trust them en mass. They are a people led by their church and will happily commit anything in the name of their church. The new generation of GC has been fed propaganda from the Government and the Church for the past 50 years, and as we all know, if you tell a lie often enough then it becomes a truth!

I am thoroughly and completely disgusted with the way that the Turkish Cypriots have received a total lack of support from all but one of the guarantor powers and indeed the World as a whole. I cannot believe that there will ever be any kind of fair settlement so long as a single Turkish Cypriot remains on the Island. Should the Greek Cypriots have their way and all Turkish are removed from the Island then the GC will see that as an acceptable settlement and then commence to pursue the Turkish Cypriots through the courts until they have ground them out of life. Do not expect the UK to help the TC, they never have and never will, the thought that Greece would be fair with the TC is yet another pipe dream.

I have lived among both the GC and TC in my time in Cyprus and find them both, individually to be some of the nicest people in the whole world but as a small people (Cypriots) they have no influence on world events apart from being the owners of this Island, which is still a strategic military site for many nations. So long as tension exists between the two Governments and so long as the current situation can be maintained then the world is quite happy for it to do so. The worlds biggest fear is that the two sides would come together as either one or two separate Nations - if that were to happen then both sides could rule their own destiny without pressure from outside influence. Do you think this would ever be allowed to happen?

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 10:07 am

Having lived on this island as a teenager in the early 70s, then returned to live and work in Cyprus in the mid 80s and early 90s and now have had a small plave here for 5 years, things here in the TRNC have changed an awful lot. Of course the TRNC has advanced much more slowly than the ROC, however, despite its isolation it has continued to exist and in some areas flourish. It is and can still be a frustrating place to live but for all its faults its still has a special something for us.

Met up with old friends recently, who lived and worked out here when I did in the mid 80s....it was over 30 years since they had been to the TRNC. They commented on how in the 80s the cars were mainly old wrecks, either renault or fiat derivatives...made under licence in Turkey. Housing was very much rough and ready, roads terrible and some foodstuffs not available, lack of hotels and services. Now they said, large BMW's, Range Rovers etc can be frequently seen, high quality hotels are all around, internet, mobile services, foodstuffs etc all so much better.

I find it amazing that despite 40 + years of isolation, this small state has continued to keep going......that is some achievement.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 10:10 am

waddo wrote:Lurucinali, In answer to your question "Were any of you in CYprus between 1963 and 1974? I suspect not.", I first came to Cyprus in Apr 1965 as a member of the British Military, I came again in 1969 through till 1974 - so my answer is yes! You also ask "Why are you so afraid of Greek Cypriots? ", what makes you think I am?

I am not afraid of them but I certainly do not trust them en mass. They are a people led by their church and will happily commit anything in the name of their church. The new generation of GC has been fed propaganda from the Government and the Church for the past 50 years, and as we all know, if you tell a lie often enough then it becomes a truth!

I am thoroughly and completely disgusted with the way that the Turkish Cypriots have received a total lack of support from all but one of the guarantor powers and indeed the World as a whole. I cannot believe that there will ever be any kind of fair settlement so long as a single Turkish Cypriot remains on the Island. Should the Greek Cypriots have their way and all Turkish are removed from the Island then the GC will see that as an acceptable settlement and then commence to pursue the Turkish Cypriots through the courts until they have ground them out of life. Do not expect the UK to help the TC, they never have and never will, the thought that Greece would be fair with the TC is yet another pipe
dream.

I have lived among both the GC and TC in my time in Cyprus and find them both, individually to be some of the nicest people in the whole world but as a small people (Cypriots) they have no influence on world events apart from being the owners of this Island, which is still a strategic military site for many nations. So long as tension exists between the two Governments and so long as the current situation can be maintained then the world is quite happy for it to do so. The worlds biggest fear is that the two sides would come together as either one or two separate Nations - if that were to happen then both sides could rule their own destiny without pressure from outside influence. Do you think this would
ever be allowed to happen?

Tend to agree with most of this.

Love the whole island of Cyprus, met many lovely greek and turkish cypriots over the years but I am not convinced that deep down either community will ever trust the other.

wondering1 · Post by **wondering1** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 3:05 pm

I really loved hearing the experiences some of you have had, even though you are not Turkish Cypriot you have a loyalty to here and it is admirable.

Lurucinali you are probably my cousin, lol, because my family are from there. Your views seem to be a little out of sync with the general views held of the village though, I imagine you know this...

Context for others here not familiar with this village, its name later changed to Akincilar which literally means fearless because it is a village that fought against the Greek Cypriots/Army and held their own without any military assistance at all. Famers literally took up arms and went in the surrounding hills.

There are many stories from this village, one for example: 2 villagers were kidnapped from the street by Greeks in Akincilar. The villages took an entire bus full of greeks from a near by village and demanded the return of their own villagers - it worked and no one was injured.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 4:00 pm

wondering1 wrote:I really loved hearing the experiences some of you have had, even though you are not Turkish Cypriot you have a loyalty to here and it is admirable.

Lurucinali you are probably my cousin, lol, because my family are from there. Your views seem to be a little out of sync with the general views held of the village though, I imagine you know this...

Context for others here not familiar with this village, its name later changed to Akincilar which literally means fearless because it is a village that fought against the Greek Cypriots/Army and held their own without any military assistance at all. Famers literally took up arms and went in the surrounding hills.

There are many stories from this village, one for example: 2 villagers were kidnapped from the street by Greeks in Akincilar. The villages took an entire bus full of greeks from a near by village and demanded the return of their own villagers - it worked and no one was injured.

i don't know who you have been speaking to but facts say different.
In 2004 Lurucina voted for peace
In the recent presidential vote Akinci got most of the votes.
Naturally Lurucina has her right wingers too but you know we all have some misguided people amongts us right? and of course we must make special allownaces for those who have special needs.

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 4:23 pm

Soner I would like to hear your views to what has been written so far on this topic. I have read your book 'The Green Line' with interest and you have had first hand experience to what it was like in 1974?

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 4:58 pm

But how did we get to 1974?

Who did what to whom?

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 5:24 pm

DenizIsmail wrote:Soner I would like to hear your views to what has been written so far on this topic. I have read your book 'The Green Line' with interest and you have had first hand experience to what it was like in 1974?

Soner has not posted on this thread, he is probably not reading it!

If you want to ask him a question, you would do better to email him, or send him a PM...

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 5:58 pm

At Christmas 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish Cypriot communities across the island, and very many men, women, and children were killed. 270 of their mosques, shrines and other places of worship were desecrated.

On 28 December 1963 the Daily Express carried the following report from Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."

On 31 December 1963 The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of a doctor—allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats." Although the Turkish Cypriots fought back as best they could, and killed some militia, there were no massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.

On 1 January 1964 the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."

On 2 January 1964 the Daily Telegraph wrote "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers." Britain did not however make any serious attempt to stop the Greek Cypriots.

On 12 January 1964 the British High Commission in Nicosia wrote to London[118] "The Greek (Cypriot) police are led by extremists who provoked the fighting and deliberately engaged in atrocities. They have recruited into their ranks as "special constables" gun-happy young thugs. They threaten to try and punish any Turkish Cypriot police who wish to return to the Cyprus Government. . . . . . . . Makarios assured us there will be no attack. His assurance is as worthless as previous assurances have proved."

Quotes from Michael Stephen written evidence to the UK Foreign Affairs Committee.

Michael Stephen LL.M. is a Barrister and international lawyer and was a member of the UK Parliament 1992-97. He held a Harkness Fellowship in International Law at Stanford and Harvard, and was Assistant Legal Adviser to the UK Ambassador to the UN for the 25th General Assembly. He is the author of "The Cyprus Question." (London, July 2001).

Post by **Soner** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 7:32 pm

I was only 8 years old when I first visited Cyprus in 1974. I had arrived at Nicosia Airport mixed with TC's and GC's, then transported by a GC taxi driver to a TC enclave. After that I do not recollect being amongst any GC's (except when held captive). I only go by my late father's stories, whereby, in his day both TC'c and GC's lived peacefully together, up until the early 1950's. I wished that I had experienced the same, unfortunately I really do not think we will ever go back to those times.

Yes, in the 2004 referendum the TC's voted YES (GC's NO) to whatever was on the table at the time, and believe Guzelyurt was to be handed over if both sides voted YES to the Anan Plan. Another 12 years have now passed and so much has happened and changed in the TRNC. The outcome this time around may not be the same, many TC's may not be willing to give anything back or live without the presence of the mainland Turkish Army. Beside, I would be extremely surprised if we even manage to a stage for a referendum, let alone one by the end of this year.

What I have seen over the last few years is simply delay tactics by the GC Presidency, and I stand by what I truly believe: "Is President Anastasiades willing to go down in history as the first GC to strike a deal with the Turks?" I believe that if there was any form of a solution, then it must be as two separate states with border control as is currently being run. With the Church in control, youngster being brainwashed and Enosis still being ripe, the Without the Green Line (with or without the UN), then trouble would be inevitable; I can see it all kicking off once again, as it did in the past, simply barbaric.

I have met GC's and TC's that sincerely wish for a solution, but how can that be when the GC administration's demands, as elisabeth states in message 14, are excessive, over-the-top and some beyond a joke. What chance is there?

There will be no solution by end of this year, next year or in 10 years time. Negotiations will not end up fruitful, it's only purpose is to show willing, albeit false. I hope that I am proved wrong and both sides live together happily ever after. If and when all talks breakdown, the embargo on the TRNC must be lifted, so far that's 42 years of injustice put upon the TC.

Whatever happens, may the PEACE continue.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 8:28 pm

waddo wrote:Lurucinali, In answer to your question "Were any of you in CYprus between 1963 and 1974? I suspect not.", I first came to Cyprus in Apr 1965 as a member of the British Military, I came again in 1969 through till 1974 - so my answer is yes! You also ask "Why are you so afraid of Greek Cypriots? ", what makes you think I am?

I am not afraid of them but I certainly do not trust them en mass. They are a people led by their church and will happily commit anything in the name of their church. The new generation of GC has been fed propaganda from the Government and the Church for the past 50 years, and as we all know, if you tell a lie often enough then it becomes a truth!

I am thoroughly and completely disgusted with the way that the Turkish Cypriots have received a total lack of support from all but one of the guarantor powers and indeed the World as a whole. I cannot believe that there will ever be any kind of fair settlement so long as a single Turkish Cypriot remains on the Island. Should the Greek Cypriots have their way and all Turkish are removed from the Island then the GC will see that as an acceptable settlement and then commence to pursue the Turkish Cypriots through the courts until they have ground them out of life. Do not expect the UK to help the TC, they never have and never will, the thought that Greece would be fair with the TC is yet another pipe dream.

I have lived among both the GC and TC in my time in Cyprus and find them both, individually to be some of the nicest people in the whole world but as a small people (Cypriots) they have no influence on world events apart from being the owners of this Island, which is still a strategic military site for many nations. So long as tension exists between the two Governments and so long as the current situation can be maintained then the world is quite happy for it to do so. The worlds biggest fear is that the two sides would come together as either one or two separate Nations - if that were to happen then both sides could rule their own destiny without pressure from outside influence. Do you think this would ever be allowed to happen?

I WAS in Cyprus durin 1963 and 1965 and in particular Christmas l963, as a - wait for it - "dependent of a member of the civilian component of the British Forces in Cyprus"! As a British civilian I obtained a secretarial post with the Sovereign Base Areas Administration and later with the SBA Police and was also an emergency special constable with them .

With my parents, I lived in a Greek area, (until as a result of the "troubles" all civilians connected to the forces were given the choice of repatriation or moving onto the base") but my work brought me into contact with both communities and I had many friends in both. Christmas 1963 when fighting broke out and listening to the sound of bazookas and gunfire from the Turkish quarter of Limassol while BFBS were announcing the outbreak of "inter communal violence" and curfews , instead of the planned Christmas eve party, was a strange and tragic and even traumatic experience.

I totally endorse everything Waddo has said , particularly in relation to the undue influence which the Greek Orthodox Church has on otherwise kind and often charming Greek Cypriots.

People criticise both the Ottoman and British Empires - but I sometimes feel that the mistake both made was to give freedom of worship and let the Church get such a stranglehold on a section of the population of the island.

People also tend to forget that the main target of EOKA initially was as on the British and many British civilians including wives and children were shot by EOKA during the "troubles".. Also that the Greek enmity again Turks was reinforced because the British used them as Police, Prison Officers etc. when their perception was that few Greek Cypriots could be trusted in thse roles. "Great" Britain to its eternal shame showed their gratitude for Turkish support by abandoning their cause and are still doing so.

I personally cant see any hope of a solution until the TRNC is internationally recognised and is able to enter negotiation of a level playing field.

I think many Turkish Cypriots feel that they are between a rock and a hard place - union with the South and the EU on the one hand, and becoming a part of the Republic of Turkey on the other, and even see the formed as the lesser of two evils. Some , like so many others, are attracted by the so called benefits of the EU. One can only hope that since the experiences of Greece and the so called RoC havent put them off, thatof Great Britain will!

I also hope that Waz is correct (for once ) about the reactions of Turkey.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 9:08 pm

Thank You Robin.

Who actually wants a settlement? And why?

Northern Cyprus is the last real Mediterranean region that is absent of full on commercialism.
Certainly very recent times has seen extensive localised developments to meet the market demands of students, and gamblers.
The economy remains very subdued and outside of the towns there is very little in the way of commercial development.
You can still ride out past tatlisu for example and not see another car for mile upon mile and on good turkish roads.

Settlement will create a massive influx of investment , development, and commercial growth as the door of opportunity swings right open.
I fear a lack of control, proper management and a rush for wealth by the wealthy will turn the region into a massive, noisy, dirty, building site with every westernised franchise, brand , and influence on the gravy train of new opportunity.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 9:23 pm

DenizIsmail wrote:At Christmas 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish Cypriot communities across the island, and very many men, women, and children were killed. 270 of their mosques, shrines and other places of worship were desecrated.

On 28 December 1963 the Daily Express carried the following report from Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."

On 31 December 1963 The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of a doctor—allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats." Although the Turkish Cypriots fought back as best they could, and killed some militia, there were no massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.

On 1 January 1964 the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."

On 2 January 1964 the Daily Telegraph wrote "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers." Britain did not however make any serious attempt to stop the Greek Cypriots.

On 12 January 1964 the British High Commission in Nicosia wrote to London[118] "The Greek (Cypriot) police are led by extremists who provoked the fighting and deliberately engaged in atrocities. They have recruited into their ranks as "special constables" gun-happy young thugs. They threaten to try and punish any Turkish Cypriot police who wish to return to the Cyprus Government. . . . . . . . Makarios assured us there will be no attack. His assurance is as worthless as previous assurances have proved."

Quotes from Michael Stephen written evidence to the UK Foreign Affairs Committee.

Michael Stephen LL.M. is a Barrister and international lawyer and was a member of the UK Parliament 1992-97. He held a Harkness Fellowship in International Law at Stanford and Harvard, and was Assistant Legal Adviser to the UK Ambassador to the UN for the 25th General Assembly. He is the author of "The Cyprus Question." (London, July 2001).

Interesting that what people who lived thousands of miles away wrote seems to be more significant then then those of us who were there when it happened. I think we are all in need of some education here, I started a thread so I will begin from the beginning. The problem did not start in 63 or even 55, it actually started at the end of the second world war. I have started a thread about the Cyprus problem so I intend to post the events in that thread.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Fri 08 Jul 2016 10:10 pm

Lurucinali wrote:
DenizIsmail wrote:At Christmas 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish Cypriot communities across the island, and very many men, women, and children were killed. 270 of their mosques, shrines and other places of worship were desecrated.

On 28 December 1963 the Daily Express carried the following report from Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."

On 31 December 1963 The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of a doctor—allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats." Although the Turkish Cypriots fought back as best they could, and killed some militia, there were no massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.

On 1 January 1964 the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."

On 2 January 1964 the Daily Telegraph wrote "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers." Britain did not however make any serious attempt to stop the Greek Cypriots.

On 12 January 1964 the British High Commission in Nicosia wrote to London[118] "The Greek (Cypriot) police are led by extremists who provoked the fighting and deliberately engaged in atrocities. They have recruited into their ranks as "special constables" gun-happy young thugs. They threaten to try and punish any Turkish Cypriot police who wish to return to the Cyprus Government. . . . . . . . Makarios assured us there will be no attack. His assurance is as worthless as previous assurances have proved."

Quotes from Michael Stephen written evidence to the UK Foreign Affairs Committee.

Michael Stephen LL.M. is a Barrister and international lawyer and was a member of the UK Parliament 1992-97. He held a Harkness Fellowship in International Law at Stanford and Harvard, and was Assistant Legal Adviser to the UK Ambassador to the UN for the 25th General Assembly. He is the author of "The Cyprus Question." (London, July 2001).
Interesting that what people who lived thousands of miles away wrote seems to be more significant then then those of us who were there when it happened. I think we are all in need of some education here, I started a thread so I will begin from the beginning. The problem did not start in 63 or even 55, it actually started at the end of the second world war. I have started a thread about the Cyprus problem so I intend to post the events in that thread.

Lurucinali

You asked for people who were "here" between 1964 and 1974 and three of us have confirmed we were! Limassol is not thousands of miles away!
So you chose to ignore that and pick on another post, and then go back to a time when we , could only have been here as young children!

I also think it is unfair to say " need for education here" . I sympathise that a lot of expats appear to be horribly ignorant of the situation and history where they live, but the posters on this thread have obviously done quite a lot of research on the subject.

I assume by the end of the second world war, you are referring to Britain's failure to keep its promise to handCyprus over to Greece if the latter entered the war on our side! Another example of "perfidious Albion" and no doubt a contributory factor, but you could go back further for the start - the British leasing and subsequent annexation of the Island, the Ottoman conquest of the Island, or the Greek War of Independence which was the start of pan-Hellenism and probably the basis of demands for Enosis! I look forward to seeing your table of events.

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 6:43 am

Thank you Soner for posting your comments . I just wish we could get Erol to post something as well.

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 10:27 am

Akinci said the Turkish Cypriot side was very sensitive about the issue, refusing to discuss the issue of territory.

“We want to discuss this matter soon because we want to conclude discussions on the Cyprus problem, but today was not the day,” Akinci said.

Territory, security, and guarantees, will be discussed on 29th July 29, he said.

Cyprus Weekly reports that President Nicos Anastasiades, commenting on Friday’s leaders’ meeting said that that basic freedoms would not be jeopardised in a federal reunited Cyprus.

He maintained that the aim of this round of negotiations remained the unification of the island, within the year, if possible.

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 10:44 am

Ragged Robin wrote:
Lurucinali wrote:
DenizIsmail wrote:At Christmas 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish Cypriot communities across the island, and very many men, women, and children were killed. 270 of their mosques, shrines and other places of worship were desecrated.

On 28 December 1963 the Daily Express carried the following report from Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."

On 31 December 1963 The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of a doctor—allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats." Although the Turkish Cypriots fought back as best they could, and killed some militia, there were no massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.

On 1 January 1964 the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."

On 2 January 1964 the Daily Telegraph wrote "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers." Britain did not however make any serious attempt to stop the Greek Cypriots.

On 12 January 1964 the British High Commission in Nicosia wrote to London[118] "The Greek (Cypriot) police are led by extremists who provoked the fighting and deliberately engaged in atrocities. They have recruited into their ranks as "special constables" gun-happy young thugs. They threaten to try and punish any Turkish Cypriot police who wish to return to the Cyprus Government. . . . . . . . Makarios assured us there will be no attack. His assurance is as worthless as previous assurances have proved."

Quotes from Michael Stephen written evidence to the UK Foreign Affairs Committee.

Michael Stephen LL.M. is a Barrister and international lawyer and was a member of the UK Parliament 1992-97. He held a Harkness Fellowship in International Law at Stanford and Harvard, and was Assistant Legal Adviser to the UK Ambassador to the UN for the 25th General Assembly. He is the author of "The Cyprus Question." (London, July 2001).
Interesting that what people who lived thousands of miles away wrote seems to be more significant then then those of us who were there when it happened. I think we are all in need of some education here, I started a thread so I will begin from the beginning. The problem did not start in 63 or even 55, it actually started at the end of the second world war. I have started a thread about the Cyprus problem so I intend to post the events in that thread.

Lurucinali

You asked for people who were "here" between 1964 and 1974 and three of us have confirmed we were! Limassol is not thousands of miles away!
So you chose to ignore that and pick on another post, and then go back to a time when we , could only have been here as young children!

I also think it is unfair to say " need for education here" . I sympathise that a lot of expats appear to be horribly ignorant of the situation and history where they live, but the posters on this thread have obviously done quite a lot of research on the subject.

I assume by the end of the second world war, you are referring to Britain's failure to keep its promise to handCyprus over to Greece if the latter entered the war on our side! Another example of "perfidious Albion" and no doubt a contributory factor, but you could go back further for the start - the British leasing and subsequent annexation of the Island, the Ottoman conquest of the Island, or the Greek War of Independence which was the start of pan-Hellenism and probably the basis of demands for Enosis! I look forward to seeing your table of events.

Being in Cyprus and living in thebases or near them does not count. You have no idea what was going on in Cyprus. To have an idea, you had to have lived in the enclaves and be amongst the refugees to understand what was going on. You would also have to have connection in Cyprus as they lived the late 70s and 80s and 90s to really understand where we are today and why we are where we are.

To all those who do not believe peace is possible I will say this. Never in the history of Cyprus have we had two leaders who actually wanted to solve the Cyprus problem, not even Talat and Christofias. Christofias chickened out after being elected. Today progress is being made, slowly but surely it is moving forward. The idea that on one side people blame Anastasiades for putting pre-conditions but not a word is being said about Ozgurgun's comments is quite ironic. Even if it does not conclude this year, it is refreshing not to hear the Greek Cypriot leadership not to scream suffocating time frames. Even Anastasiades has said peace in 2016 is possible. Of course there is a risk that it may not happen but at least they are trying.

As to the Cyprus Problem and how it started there is a thread which I shall begin posting in. Feel free to contribute.

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 10:45 am

Perhaps someone can explain why 18% of the population of Cyprus should have the "state" that was taken by force should keep 37% of the island of Cyprus and have that "state" recognised. There would be a solution tomorrow if Turkey agreed to return a significant part of the ROC that it illegally occupies. Don't kid yourselves, Turkey calls the shots in the "trnc" not the local administration.

The Greek Cypriots have made a major concession in accepting that there should be a Turkish Cypriot state in the north despite the means by which it was created but the regime in the north can never be recognised without the consent of the ROC, countries created by the force of arms are not recognised these days. The West Bank has not been recognised as part of Israel despite its close links to USA - what chance does the "trnc" have?

And please - don't give me "they started it" nonsense. All sides had their own agenda from the outset, Turkey wanted the island returned when the British left (against the will of 80% of the population), Denktash wanted partition, Greece and Makarios wanted enosis and the western alliances wanted a base. Turkey has got away with its illegal activities on Cyprus because of its importance to NATO, were that not the case it would have been made to leave years ago.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 10:51 am

waz-24-7 wrote:Thank You Robin.

Who actually wants a settlement? And why?

Northern Cyprus is the last real Mediterranean region that is absent of full on commercialism.
Certainly very recent times has seen extensive localised developments to meet the market demands of students, and gamblers.
The economy remains very subdued and outside of the towns there is very little in the way of commercial development.
You can still ride out past tatlisu for example and not see another car for mile upon mile and on good turkish roads.

Settlement will create a massive influx of investment , development, and commercial growth as the door of opportunity swings right open.
I fear a lack of control, proper management and a rush for wealth by the wealthy will turn the region into a massive, noisy, dirty, building site with every westernised franchise, brand , and influence on the gravy train of new opportunity.

But Waz
Isn't this what you have been advocating over the last few weeks ?...

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 12:25 pm

There's more chance of Michael Gove getting a Chistmas card from Boris Johnson than there is of being a solution to the Cyprob

Lurucinali · Post by **Lurucinali** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 12:39 pm

I get the feeling there are a lot of people who do not want peace. Why is what I would like to know. what have you got to lose? Is it your investments you are worried about?

Going back to 18% of population, since when has population dictated land sizes.
Have all the Cypriots got equal amount of land and is the land equal in value where ever it may be.

Under BBF there will be an exchange of land as well as compensation. You have to wait till they announce the agreement on property and territory. jumping around like a headless chicken claiming there will not be a solution is not going to stop the solution.

JBA · Post by **JBA** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 1:22 pm

We have peace - the fighting stopped in 1974. What I am frightened of is that the TCs will be gullible enough to agree a deal with the GCs - just like they did in 1960.

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 1:50 pm

Well said JBA!

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 2:02 pm

Why not let the Cypriot communities: Armenians, Catholic Christian, Greek Cypriot, Maronite, Turkish Cypriot and those with voting rights decide their own future. Us expats bumping our gums is ust that, we have no say, sway or support here for our own personal views/opinions.

DenizIsmail · Post by **DenizIsmail** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 2:22 pm

Totally agree with JBA

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 09 Jul 2016 4:31 pm

I have to agree also with JBA.

Lurucinali ,.. Do you think BBF will be a sufficient solution to gain Island peace and would this mean that Turkey ends its funding to the TC's and leaving the community vulnerable to any policy the GC's wish to implement ?.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sun 10 Jul 2016 8:13 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Thank You Robin.

Who actually wants a settlement? And why?

Northern Cyprus is the last real Mediterranean region that is absent of full on commercialism.
Certainly very recent times has seen extensive localised developments to meet the market demands of students, and gamblers.
The economy remains very subdued and outside of the towns there is very little in the way of commercial development.
You can still ride out past tatlisu for example and not see another car for mile upon mile and on good turkish roads.

Settlement will create a massive influx of investment , development, and commercial growth as the door of opportunity swings right open.
I fear a lack of control, proper management and a rush for wealth by the wealthy will turn the region into a massive, noisy, dirty, building site with every westernised franchise, brand , and influence on the gravy train of new opportunity.

Waz you have now got me totally confused! When I was advocating Brexit because I felt that the British (well, English,if you prefer) needed the right to determine their own fate and run their own country, and was concerned that a "friendly neighbouring power" the EU, was interfering with our rights, and damaging our national identity, cuture and customes and ecology, you accused me effectively being an old fogey and resistiting progress.

Now you appear to be opposing Turkish Cypriots reuniting with the Greek and therefore becoming part of the EU and suffering from over - commercialism for exactly the same reasons I wanted British to leave it! Have I misunderstood, are you being sarcastic or is their one rule for Turkish Cyriots and another for the English?!

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