The Cyprus Problem

[Lurucinali]

Niyazi Kizilyurek is another one of those Lurucinalis who may be out of sync with some people here. Although he is not strictly speaking a true Lurucianli he is only an honorory one as he came to Lurucina in 1964 as a small boy and finished both is primary and secondary education in Lurucina.

The film called our wall is a gentle introduction to the Cyprus Problem. It does have English subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXYSecx8mUI

[Lurucinali]

The root of the problem started in 1947 with the Americans setting up what they called "Stay Behind" in Europe, who's aim was to stop the spread of communism. It has nothing to do with Greece being offered Cyprus .

One was set up in Greece and another in Turkey. They in turn set up EOKA and TMT. Their mission was to stop leftist people coming to power. EOKA killed their own leftists and TMT did the same to their leftists. They first tried to scare them to leave and those who refused were killed. Of course once set up, EOKA and TMT had their own agenda but so log as they served the interests of their masters they could of course literally get away with murder.

EOKA's agenda was to join Cyprus with Greece and TMT's agenda was taksim. They set about separating the population from mixing. They would threaten anybody who dared trade with the other side. You could not get married to somebody from the other side without one changing religion. There was a ban in talking Greek Cypriot and TMT enforced by collecting the fines.

But at least the hostilities ended in 1960 when the RoC was set up. So no sooner was the agreement was signed the two leaderships set about destroying the republic.

As to how the actual 1963 started the facts begin to get a bit blured. To get the information, it is no good going to what the news papers wrote, there are people who were there or were able to do proper investigation as to what really happened.

To understand you have to read at least the books written by:

Martin Packard - Getting It Wrong
Harry Scott Gibbons - The Genocide Files
Sevgul Uludag - Oysters with Missing Pearls
Makarios Drousiotis's -The First Partition as well as Cyprus 74.

These books have been written by people who have done thorough research and have spoken to witnesses.

[DenizIsmail]

Historical background prior to 1960[edit]

Ottoman admiral, geographer and cartographer Piri Reis' historical map of Cyprus
The island of Cyprus was first inhabited in 9000 BC with the arrival of farming societies who built round houses with floors of terazzo. Cities were first built during the Bronze Age and the inhabitants had their own Eteocypriot language until around the 4th century BC.[10] The island was part of the Hittite Empire as part of the Ugarit Kingdom[11] during the late Bronze Age until the arrival of two waves of Greek settlement.

Cyprus experienced an uninterrupted Greek presence on the island dating from the arrival of Mycenaeans around 1100 BC, when the burials began to take the form of long dromos.[12] The Greek population of Cyprus survived through multiple conquerors, including Egyptian and Persian rule. In the 4th century BC, Cyprus was conquered by Alexander the Great and then ruled by the Ptolemaic Egypt until 58 BC, when it was incorporated into the Roman Empire. After an interval of Islam Khalifate (643–966), the island returned to Roman rule until the 12th century. After an occupation by the Knights Templar and the rule of Isaac Komnenos, the island in 1192 came under the rule of the Lusignan family, who established the Kingdom of Cyprus. In February 1489 it was seized by the Republic of Venice. Between September 1570 and August 1571 it was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, starting three centuries of Turkish rule over Cyprus.

Starting in the early nineteenth century, ethnic Greeks of the island sought to bring about an end to almost 300 years of Ottoman rule and unite Cyprus with Greece. The United Kingdom took administrative control of the island in 1878, to prevent Ottoman possessions from falling under Russian control following the Cyprus Convention, which led to the call for union (enosis) to grow louder. Under the terms of the agreement reached between Britain and the Ottoman Empire, the island remained an Ottoman territory.

The Christian Greek-speaking majority of the island welcomed the arrival of the British as a chance to voice their demands for union with Greece.

When the Ottoman Empire entered World War I on the side of the Central Powers, Britain renounced the agreement and all Turkish claims over Cyprus and declared the island a British colony. In 1915, Britain offered Cyprus to Constantine I of Greece on condition that Greece join the war on the side of the British, which he declined.

1918 to 1955[edit]

A Greek Cypriot demonstration in the 1930s in favour of Enosis (union) with Greece
Under British rule in the early 20th century, Cyprus escaped the conflicts and atrocities that went on elsewhere between Greeks and Turks; notably the Greek Genocide, during the Greco-Turkish War, and the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Turkish Cypriots consistently opposed the idea of union with Greece.

In 1925 Britain declared Cyprus to be a Crown Colony. In the years that followed, the determination for enosis continued. In 1931 this led to open revolution. A riot resulted in the death of six civilians, injuries to others and the burning of the British Government House in Nicosia. In the months that followed, about 2,000 people were convicted of crimes in connection with the struggle for union with Greece. Britain reacted by imposing harsh restrictions. Military reinforcements were dispatched to the island and the constitution suspended.[13][14] A special "epicourical" (reserve) police force was formed consisting of only Turkish Cypriots, press restrictions instituted[15][16] and political parties banned. Two bishops and eight other prominent citizens directly implicated in the conflict were exiled.[17] Municipal elections were suspended, and until 1943 all municipal officials were appointed by the government.[citation needed] The governor was to be assisted by an Executive Council, and two years later an Advisory Council was established; both councils consisted only of appointees and were restricted to advising on domestic matters only. In addition, the flying of Greek or Turkish flags or the public display of portraits of Greek or Turkish heroes was forbidden.[citation needed]

The struggle for enosis was put on hold during World War II. In 1946, the British government announced plans to invite Cypriots to form a Consultative Assembly to discuss a new constitution. The British also allowed the return of the 1931 exiles.[18] Instead of reacting positively, as expected by the British, the Greek Cypriot military hierarchy reacted angrily because there had been no mention of enosis.[citation needed] The Cypriot Orthodox Church had expressed its disapproval, and Greek Cypriots declined the British invitation, stating that enosis was their sole political aim. The efforts by Greeks to bring about enosis now intensified, helped by active support of the Church of Cyprus, which was the main political voice of the Greek Cypriots at the time.[citation needed] However, it was not the only organisation claiming to speak for the Greek Cypriots. The Church's main opposition came from the Cypriot Communist Party (officially the Progressive Party of the Working People; Ανορθωτικό Κόμμα Εργαζόμενου Λαού; or AKEL), which also wholeheartedly supported the Greek national goal of enosis. However the British military forces and Colonial administration in Cyprus did not see the pro-Soviet communist party as a viable partner.[citation needed]

By 1954 a number of Turkish mainland institutions were active in the Cyprus issue such as the National Federation of Students, the Committee for the Defence of Turkish rights in Cyprus, the Welfare Organisation of Refugees from Thrace and the Cyprus Turkish Association.[citation needed] Above all, the Turkish trade unions were to prepare the right climate for the main Turkish goal, the division of the island (taksim) into Greek and Turkish parts, thus keeping the British military presence and installations on the island intact. By this time a special Turkish Cypriot paramilitary organisation Turkish Resistance Organisation (TMT) was also established which was to act as a counterbalance to the Greek Cypriot enosis fighting organisation of EOKA.[19]

In 1950, Michael Mouskos, Bishop Makarios of Kition (Larnaca), was elevated to Archbishop Makarios III of Cyprus. In his inaugural speech, he vowed not to rest until union with "mother Greece" had been achieved.[citation needed] In Athens, enosis was a common topic of conversation, and a Cypriot native, Colonel George Grivas, was becoming known for his strong views on the subject. In anticipation of an armed struggle to achieve enosis, Grivas visited Cyprus in July 1951. He discussed his ideas with Makarios but was disappointed by the archbishop's contrasting opinion as he proposed a political struggle rather than an armed revolution against the British. From the beginning, and throughout their relationship, Grivas resented having to share leadership with the archbishop. Makarios, concerned about Grivas's extremism from their very first meeting, preferred to continue diplomatic efforts, particularly efforts to get the United Nations involved. The feelings of uneasiness that arose between them never dissipated. In the end, the two became enemies. In the meantime, in August [Papagos Government] 1954, Greece's UN representative formally requested that self-determination for the people of Cyprus be included on the agenda of the General Assembly's next session.[citation needed] Turkey rejected the idea of the union of Cyprus and Greece. Turkish Cypriot community opposed Greek Cypriot enosis movement, as under British rule the Turkish Cypriot minority status and identity were protected. Turkish Cypriot identification with Turkey had grown stronger in response to overt Greek nationalism of Greek Cypriots, and after 1954 the Turkish government had become increasingly involved. In the late summer and early autumn of 1954, the Cyprus problem intensified. On Cyprus the colonial government threatened publishers of seditious literature with up to two years imprisonment.[20] In December the UN General Assembly announced the decision "not to consider the problem further for the time being, because it does not appear appropriate to adopt a resolution on the question of Cyprus." Reaction to the setback at the UN was immediate and violent, resulting in the worst rioting in Cyprus since 1931.[citation needed]

EOKA campaign and creation of TMT, 1955–59[edit]
In January 1955, Grivas founded the National Organisation of Cypriot Fighters (Ethniki Organosis Kyprion Agoniston – EOKA). On 1 April 1955, EOKA opened an armed campaign against British rule in a well-coordinated series of attacks on police, military, and other government installations in Nicosia, Famagusta, Larnaca, and Limassol. This resulted in the deaths of 387 British servicemen and personnel[21] and some Greek Cypriots suspected of collaboration; in 2009, a memorial for the British soldiers killed by Greek Cypriot EOKA during 1955–1959 Cyprus Emergency was erected in Kyrenia, Northern Cyprus.[22] As a result of this a number of Greek Cypriots began to leave the police. This however did not affect the Colonial police force as they had already created the solely Turkish Cypriot (Epicourical) reserve force to fight EOKA paramilitaries. At the same time, it led to tensions between the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities. In 1957 the Turkish Resistance Organisation (Türk Mukavemet Teşkilatı TMT), which had already been formed to protect the Turkish Cypriots from EOKA took action. In response to the growing demand for enosis, a number of Turkish Cypriots became convinced that the only way to protect their interests and identity of the Turkish Cypriot population in the event of enosis would be to divide the island – a policy known as taksim ("partition" in Turkish borrowed from (تقسیم)"Taqsīm" in Arabic) – into a Greek sector in the south and a Turkish sector in the north only.

By now the island was on the verge of civil war. Several attempts to present a compromise settlement had failed. Therefore, beginning in December 1958, representatives of Greece and Turkey, the so-called "mother lands" opened discussions of the Cyprus issue. Participants for the first time discussed the concept of an independent Cyprus, i.e., neither enosis nor taksim

Subsequent talks always headed by the British yielded a so-called compromise agreement supporting independence, laying the foundations of the Republic of Cyprus. The scene then naturally shifted to London, where the Greek and Turkish representatives were joined by representatives of the Greek Cypriots, the Turkish Cypriots (represented by Arch. Makarios and Dr Fazil Kucuk with no significant decision making power), and the British. The Zürich-London agreements that became the basis for the Cyprus constitution of 1960 were supplemented with three treaties – the Treaty of Establishment, the Treaty of Guarantee, and the Treaty of Alliance. The general tone of the agreements was one of keeping the British sovereign bases and military and monitoring facilities intact. Some Greek Cypriots, especially members of organisations such as EOKA, expressed disappointment because enosis had not been attained. In a similar way some Turkish Cypriots especially members of organisations such as TMT expressed their disappointment as they had to postpone their target for taksim, however most Cypriots that were not influenced by the three so called guarantor powers (Greece, Turkey, and Britain), welcomed the agreements and set aside their demand for enosis and taksim. According to the Treaty of Establishment, Britain retained sovereignty over 256 square kilometres, which became the Dhekelia Sovereign Base Area, to the northeast of Larnaca, and the Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area to the southwest of Limassol.

Cyprus achieved independence on 16 August 1960.

Constitutional breakdown and intercommunal talks, 1960–74[edit]
Main article: Cyprus intercommunal violence


President of the Republic of Cyprus, archbishop Makarios III (left) and Vice President Dr. Fazıl Küçük (right)
According to constitutional arrangements, Cyprus was to become an independent, non-aligned republic with a Greek Cypriot president and a Turkish Cypriot vice-president. General executive authority was vested in a council of ministers with a ratio of seven Greeks to three Turks. (The Greek Cypriots represented 78% of the population and the Turkish Cypriots 18%. The remaining 4% was made up by the three minority communities: the Latins, Maronites and Armenians.) A House of Representatives of fifty members, also with a seven-to-three ratio, were to be separately elected by communal balloting on a universal suffrage basis. In addition, separate Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot Communal Chambers were provided to exercise control in matters of religion, culture, and education. According to Article 78(2) any law imposing duties or taxes shall require a simple majority of the representatives elected by the Greek and Turkish communities respectively taking part in the vote. Legislation on other subjects was to take place by simple majority but again the President and the Vice-President had the same right of veto—absolute on foreign affairs, defence and internal security, delaying on other matters—as in the Council of Ministers. The judicial system would be headed by a Supreme Constitutional Court, composed of one Greek Cypriot and one Turkish Cypriot and presided over by a contracted judge from a neutral country. The Constitution of Cyprus, whilst establishing an Independent and sovereign Republic, was, in the words of de Smith, an authority on Constitutional Law; "Unique in its tortuous complexity and in the multiplicity of the safeguards that it provides for the principal minority; the Constitution of Cyprus stands alone among the constitutions of the world"[23] Within a short period of time the first disputes started to arise between the two communities. Issues of contention included taxation and the creation of separate municipalities. Because of the legislative veto system, this resulted in a lockdown in communal and state politics in many cases.

Repeated attempts to solve the disputes failed. Eventually, on 30 November 1963, Makarios put forward to the three guarantors a thirteen-point proposal designed, in his view, to eliminate impediments to the functioning of the government. The thirteen points involved constitutional revisions, including the abandonment of the veto power by both the president and the vice president. Turkey initially rejected it (although later in future discussed the proposal). A few days later, on Bloody Christmas (1963) 21 December 1963 fighting erupted between the communities in Nicosia. In the days that followed it spread across the rest of the island. At the same time, the power-sharing government collapsed. How this happened is one of the most contentious issues in modern Cypriot history. The Greek Cypriots argue that the Turkish Cypriots withdrew in order to form their own administration. The Turkish Cypriots maintain that they were forced out. Many Turkish Cypriots chose to withdraw from the government. However, in many cases those who wished to stay in their jobs were prevented from doing so by the Greek Cypriots. Also, many of the Turkish Cypriots refused to attend because they feared for their lives after the recent violence that had erupted. There was even some pressure from the TMT as well. In any event, in the days that followed the fighting a frantic effort was made to calm tensions. In the end, on 27 December 1963, an interim peacekeeping force, the Joint Truce Force, was put together by Britain, Greece and Turkey. After the partnership government collapsed, the Greek Cypriot led administration was recognized as the legitimate government of the Republic of Cyprus at the stage of the debates in New York in February 1964.[24] The Joint Truce Force held the line until a United Nations peacekeeping force, UNFICYP, was formed following United Nations Security Council Resolution 186, passed on 4 March 1964.

Peacemaking efforts, 1964–1974[edit]
At the same time as it established a peacekeeping force, the Security Council also recommended that the Secretary-General, in consultation with the parties and the Guarantor Powers, designate a mediator to take charge of formal peacemaking efforts. U Thant, then the UN Secretary-General, appointed Sakari Tuomioja, a Finnish diplomat. While Tuomioja viewed the problem as essentially international in nature and saw enosis as the most logical course for a settlement, he rejected union on the grounds that it would be inappropriate for a UN official to propose a solution that would lead to the dissolution of a UN member state. The United States held a differing view. In early June, following another Turkish threat to intervene, Washington launched an independent initiative under Dean Acheson, a former Secretary of State. In July he presented a plan to unite Cyprus with Greece. In return for accepting this, Turkey would receive a sovereign military base on the island. The Turkish Cypriots would also be given minority rights, which would be overseen by a resident international commissioner. Makarios rejected the proposal, arguing that giving Turkey territory would be a limitation on enosis and would give Ankara too strong a say in the island's affairs. A second version of the plan was presented that offered Turkey a 50-year lease on a base. This offer was rejected by the Greek Cypriots and by Turkey. After several further attempts to reach an agreement, the United States was eventually forced to give up its effort.

Following the sudden death of Ambassador Tuomioja in August, Galo Plaza was appointed Mediator. He viewed the problem in communal terms. In March 1965 he presented a report criticising both sides for their lack of commitment to reaching a settlement. While he understood the Greek Cypriot aspiration of enosis, he believed that any attempt at union should be held in voluntary abeyance. Similarly, he considered that the Turkish Cypriots should refrain from demanding a federal solution to the problem. Although the Greek Cypriots eventually accepted the report, despite its opposition to immediate enosis, Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots rejected the plan, calling on Plaza to resign on the grounds that he had exceeded his mandate by advancing specific proposals. He was simply meant to broker an agreement. But the Greek Cypriots made it clear that if Galo Plaza resigned they would refuse to accept a replacement. U Thant was left with no choice but to abandon the mediation effort. Instead he decided to make his Good Offices available to the two sides via resolution 186 of 4 March 1964 and a Mediator was appointed. In his Report (S/6253, A/6017, 26 March 1965), the Mediator, Dr Gala Plaza, criticised the 1960 legal framework, and proposed necessary amendments which were rejected by Turkey, a fact which resulted in serious deterioration of the situation with constant threats by Turkey against the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cyprus, necessitating a series of UN Resolutions calling, inter alia, for respect of the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus.[23] The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965, described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way: "The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots"Report S/6426

The end of the mediation effort was effectively confirmed when, at the end of the year, Plaza resigned and was not replaced.

In March 1966, a more modest attempt at peacemaking was initiated under the auspices of Carlos Bernades, the Secretary-General's Special Representative for Cyprus. Instead of trying to develop formal proposals for the parties to bargain over, he aimed to encourage the two sides agree to settlement through direct dialogue. However, ongoing political chaos in Greece prevented any substantive discussions from developing. The situation changed the following year.

On 21 April 1967, a coup d'état in Greece brought to power a military administration. Just months later, in November 1967, Cyprus witnessed its most severe bout of intercommunal fighting since 1964. Responding to a major attack on Turkish Cypriot villages in the south of the island, which left 27 dead, Turkey bombed Greek Cypriot forces and appeared to be readying itself for an intervention. Greece was forced to capitulate. Following international intervention, Greece agreed to recall General George Grivas, the Commander of the Greek Cypriot National Guard and former EOKA leader, and reduce its forces on the island. Capitalising on the weakness of the Greek Cypriots, the Turkish Cypriots proclaimed their own provisional administration on 28 December 1967. Makarios immediately declared the new administration illegal. Nevertheless, a major change had occurred. The Archbishop, along with most other Greek Cypriots, began to accept that the Turkish Cypriots would have to have some degree of political autonomy. It was also realised that unification of Greece and Cyprus was unachievable under the prevailing circumstances.

In May 1968, intercommunal talks began between the two sides under the auspices of the Good Offices of the UN Secretary-General. Unusually, the talks were not held between President Makarios and Vice-President Kucuk. Instead they were conducted by the presidents of the communal chambers, Glafcos Clerides and Rauf Denktaş. Again, little progress was made. During the first round of talks, which lasted until August 1968, the Turkish Cypriots were prepared to make several concessions regarding constitutional matters, but Makarios refused to grant them greater autonomy in return. The second round of talks, which focused on local government, was equally unsuccessful. In December 1969 a third round of discussion started. This time they focused on constitutional issues. Yet again there was little progress and when they ended in September 1970 the Secretary-General blamed both sides for the lack of movement. A fourth and final round of intercommunal talks also focused on constitutional issues, but again failed to make much headway before they were forced to a halt in 1974.

1974 Greek coup d'etat and Turkish invasion[edit]
Main articles: Timeline of events in Cyprus, 1974; 1974 Cypriot coup d'état; Turkish invasion of Cyprus; and Military operations during the Invasion of Cyprus (1974)
After 1967 some hopes arose that a compromise on separate municipalities could be achieved in negotiations between Glafcos Clerides and Rauf Denktaş and certainly agreement came close, but the Makarios government could not accept de jure separateness, which would have denied the principle of the unitary, if bi-communal, state.

Inter-communal strife was also overshadowed during this period by a serious rift on the Greek side, between Makarios and the enosist National Front supported by the Greek junta. Makarios had now become an obstacle to enosis. An attempt was made on his life, and Grivas returned in 1971 to head a new organisation, EOKA-B, with Makarios, rather than the Turkish-Cypriots, in its sight.

Makarios was told from Athens to dismiss his foreign minister and to regard Athens as the National Centre. Makarios rallied supporters successfully against attempts to remove him. He was still popular in Cyprus.

Matters became worse when a new junta came to power in September 1973, and there was less relief from rightist pressure than might have been expected when Grivas died suddenly in January 1974. The pressure mounted until a peace operation in July 1974 allegedly led by a 'hammer of the Turks' Nikos Sampson, overthrew Makarios, who managed to flee the country via a British base. For Turkey this raised the spectre of Greek control of Cyprus.

The Turkish government therefore now demanded that Greece should dismiss Sampson, withdraw all Greek officers from the island and respect the island's independence. The Greek military government refused. For the United States, Kissinger did not seem to be greatly disturbed by the Sampson coup and looked as if he could accept enosis. Turkish Prime Minister Ecevit's assertiveness in foreign policy, reinforced by his junior coalition partner strongly inclined the Turks to intervene. The British were invited to participate in military operations, under the Treaty of Guarantee, but declined. The American envoy Joseph Sisco tried unsuccessfully to persuade the Greek military government to accept Ecevit's conditions for a Cyprus settlement, which included Turkish-Cypriot control of a coastal region in the north and negotiations for a federal solution. The Soviet Union stood aside not wanting to see enosis, which would strengthen NATO and weaken the left in Cyprus.

After failing to secure British support for a joint intervention under the Treaty of Guarantee, Bülent Ecevit, the Turkish prime minister, decided to act unilaterally. On 20 July Turkey ordered a military invasion of the island. Within two days, Turkish forces had established a narrow corridor linking the north coast with Nicosia. The intervention led to turmoil in Greece. On 23 July, the military junta collapsed.

Launched with relatively few troops, the Turkish landing had limited success at first, and resulted everywhere on the island in the occupation of Turkish-Cypriot enclaves by the Greek forces. After securing a more or less satisfactory bridgehead Turkish forces agreed to a cease-fire on 23 July 1974. The same day civilian government under Karamanlis took office in Athens, the day the Sampson coup collapsed. Glafcos Clerides became the Acting President in absence still of Makarios.

Two days later formal peace talks were convened in Geneva between Greece, Turkey and Britain. Over the course of the following five days Turkey agreed to halt its advance on the condition that it would remain on the island until a political settlement was reached between the two sides. Meanwhile, Turkish troops did not refrain from extending their positions, as more Turkish-Cypriot enclaves were occupied by Greek forces. A new cease-fire line was agreed. On 30 July the powers agreed that the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the island should be linked to a 'just and lasting settlement acceptable to all parties concerned'. The declaration also spoke of 'two autonomous administrations -that of Greek-Cypriot community and that of the Turkish-Cypriot community'. On 8 August another round of discussion was held in Geneva, Switzerland. Unlike before, this time the talks involved the Greek and Turkish Cypriots. During the discussions the Turkish Cypriots, supported by Turkey, insisted on some form of geographical separation between the two communities. Makarios refused to accept the demand, insisting that Cyprus must remain a unitary state. Despite efforts to break the deadlock, the two sides refused to budge. On 14 August, Turkey demanded from Clerides acceptance of a proposal for a federal state, in which the Turkish Cypriot community (who, at that time, comprised about 18% of the population and owned about 10% of the land) would have received 34% of the island. Clerides asked for 36 to 48 hours to consult with the Cypriot and Greek governments, but Turkey refused to grant any consultation time, effectively ending the talks. Within hours, Turkey had resumed its second offensive. By the time a new, and permanent, ceasefire was called 36 per cent of the island was under the control of the Turkish military. The partition was marked by the United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus or "green line" running east to west across the island.

The effect of the division was catastrophic for all concerned. Thousands of Greek and Turkish Cypriots had been killed, wounded or missing. A further two hundred thousand Greek and Turkish Cypriots had been displaced. In addition to the entire north coast (Kerynia, Morfou) and the Karpas peninsula, the Greek Cypriots were also forced to flee the eastern port city of Famagusta. The vast majority of the Turkish occupied area was predominantly populated and owned by Greek Cypriots prior to 1974. In the process about 160,000[25] – 200,000[26] Greek Cypriots who made up 82% of the population in the north became refugees; many of them fleeing at the word of the approaching Turkish army. Since 1974, the ceasefire line separates the two communities on the island, and is commonly referred to as the Green Line. The United Nations consented to the transfer of the remainder of the 51,000 Turkish Cypriots that were trapped in the south to settle in the north, if they wished to do so. Many of them had previously moved to the areas under UK sovereign control awaiting permission to be transferred to the areas under Turkish control.

[frontalman]

Thanks for that short history lesson, Deniz

[Keithcaley]

Thanks for that short history lesson, Deniz

This thread was started so that people could add their own views and thoughts.

For someone to simply paste a 4,600 word segment from Wikipedia, complete with refences to maps and pictures which he didn't bother to include, and without offering one single original thought or word of his own - or even attributing the origin of the piece, is hardly in keeping with the intent of the OP.

[tomsteel]

Keith, d'accord. However, and in my opinion only, posters continue to look back, selectively, to historical eras/times/reporting supporting their own, biased, views. Cypriots, of all ethnic backgrounds, need to look ahead if THEY want a settlement.

[DenizIsmail]

Just wanted to point out a bit history as I did not agree to the comments posted by Barney within 'Goodbye the Cyprus Solution' and felt it was best to post within the 'Cyprus problem' thread!

[Keithcaley]

Just wanted to point out a bit history as I did not agree to the comments posted by Barney within 'Goodbye the Cyprus Solution' and felt it was best to post within the 'Cyprus problem' thread!

Fair enough, but you have not said which particular comments you disagree with, or stated your own reasons / thoughts why you disagree with them.

[DenizIsmail]

The way the whole text has been worded: State taken by force; Turkey illegally occupying ROC ( why not mention TRNC? why does it have to be ROC); Turkey has got away with its illegal activities' ( Just to name a few)

You have to look at the history and might explain why these activities have come about!

[Keithcaley]

The way the whole text has been worded: State taken by force; Turkey illegally occupying ROC ( why not mention TRNC? why does it have to be ROC); Turkey has got away with its illegal activities' ( Just to name a few)

You have to look at the history and might explain why these activities have come about!

Hi, you seem to be unaware (or choose to ignore the realities,) of the unfortunate International legal position of the TRNC.

As enshrined in numerous UN resolutions, the ENTIRE WORLD (except you, me, and Turkey ) consider that Cyprus as a whole legally consists of the Republic of Cyprus.

TRNC does not exist.

Thr TRNC President does not exist. He is referred to as 'The Turkish Cypriot Leader', because to call him a President would imply that there was an actual Country of which he is President!

The TRNC is referred to simply as 'The Occupied Area', and shown as such on their maps. 'Occupied', of course, means 'Occupied illegally by Turkey and her Army'. The Turkish Cypriots are not recognised as a separate Nation, they are simply Cypriots living in a part of the ROC which is illegally occupied by Turkey. This explains why they are able to obtain ROC EU passports - a 'fringe benefit' !

Does that answer your question?

Does it also point you to where 'Barney's' allegiances lie?

[DenizIsmail]

Keith, I feel bitter about what happened in 1974. Although I was only 12 years old I witness the deaths of my uncles and cousins during this war. I know what has been previously been said that Turkey invaded illegally however if Turkey did not invade I know that I would not have any uncles and cousins left in Cyprus.

I hope what Soner has said in a previous post is right and god willing he is not proven wrong. I also agree with what JBA has said. I would like Cyprus to remain divided as history keeps telling us that GC and TC cannot live peacefully together

[Keithcaley]

Keith, I feel bitter about what happened in 1974. Although I was only 12 years old I witness the deaths of my uncles and cousins during this war. I know what has been previously been said that Turkey invaded illegally however if Turkey did not invade I know that I would not have any uncles and cousins left in Cyprus.

I hope what Soner has said in a previous post is right and god willing he is not proven wrong. I also agree with what JBA has said. I would like Cyprus to remain divided as history keeps telling us that GC and TC cannot live peacefully together

I cannot begin to comprehend the intensity of your feelings towards the loss of your family members, so there is very little that I can say on that score.

Undoubtedly, (in my opinion,) territorial & political aspirations played a major part in the maneuverings of the main players - Greece and Turkey, and also the UK & USA - each carefully considering what might be gained by advancing or sacrificing a pawn in this deadly game.

I do not think that the lives of individual Cypriots counted for anything in this power game, played out by Global Players - except to say that 'Divide and Rule' has always been a particularly successful tactic.

While individual Cypriots on both sides were variously motivated & manipulated by Hate Propoganda , Slogans, Nationalism, Religion, Greed, and whatever other means could be brought to bear upon them, the instigators sat and observed, and plotted how best they could take advantage of each twist and turn, as the game unfolded.

The legacy of all this is what you, as a Cypriot, are left to deal with.

I wish you well.

[Barney]

The way the whole text has been worded: State taken by force; Turkey illegally occupying ROC ( why not mention TRNC? why does it have to be ROC); Turkey has got away with its illegal activities' ( Just to name a few)

You have to look at the history and might explain why these activities have come about!

Hang on a minute, do you deny that the north of the island was taken by force? There are UN resolutions that condemn Turkey's invasion, occupation and colonisation . In 1974, having landed a significant force on Cyprus, Turkey decided to kick one third out of the population from their homes and at the same time place isolated TCs in jeopardy of vengeful GC thugs. Thousands of Cypriots lost their lives as a result of the invasion whereas losses in the preceding 20 years were in the hundreds. Turkey could have forced the return to the Zurich Agreement but it chose not to, it wanted a military presence on the island, the intervention had little to do with "saving" TCs - their "plight" was simply the excuse Turkey was looking for. You are obviously not old enough to remember how things were before 1960 or how Turkey managed to extract concessions that disadvantaged the majority of the population.

In simply terms the Turkish Cypriots, emboldened by Turkey's proximity and military might, wanted more of Cyprus and its governance than their numbers deserved. Cyprus was the ONLY British colony not to achieve majority rule, the so called safeguards of the 1960 agreement had exactly the opposite effect of those intended, why is anyone surprised the the place fell apart after a few years. The Greek Cypriots are condemned for wanting the Union with Greece they never achieved but people like you appear to endorse and accept partition gained illegally by force.

Rather than copy and paste information from partisan sources I suggest you do a little more research on the Cyprus tragedy.

[DenizIsmail]

Well said Barney- I do not need to do any research to the Cyprus Tragedy as what comments have been posted on this forum it is evident that TC and GC do not get along!

[tomsteel]

Barney, read world history of Cyprus, not the RoC or Greek version.

[terry2366]

Yes Barney do at bit more research some of us were here in 63 so know differently..

[turtle]

So Barney are you saying (or simply not mentioning) the Greek coup of 74 should have been left to succeed unhindered ?

[Soner]

Turkey intervening as a Guarantor in 1974 ( whether or not they had other intentions ) for me, was a Godsend. You had to be a TC in Cyprus at the time to understand the significance of Turkey's move, regardless of the rest of the World's disagreements. Families were being wiped out and there was no other Guarantor to the island that gave a damn. The feelings of the GC to Turkey's intervention was no doubt the opposite. Too much hurt has already been done ( on both sides ) for any amends, so that both GC and TC can today live again side by side amongst each other, as they did in the past. There will always be a the few that will cause trouble, as you see today when TC's go south and are confronted by a handful of RoC Nationalists. Can you imagine what would happen if these incidents took place after a re-unified Cyprus?

[niceone]

Very true Soner
The closest there ever was to a solution was the Annan plan.
The ROC rejected it because they wanted more.
There is no solution in sight
The talks will go on as they have done in the past with no agreement

[frontalman]

It shows the difference between the two communities that GC sympathisers such as Barney and Lurancinali are allowed to comment freely without abuse on this forum, whereas anyone posting on the South's Cyprus Mail website, defending TC positions, quickly becomes the subject of all kinds of abuse and is often barred from posting. I take pride in our civilized responses.

[DenizIsmail]

Totally agree with you Soner. Its exactly how my late father would have put it!

[Barney]

Yes Barney do at bit more research some of us were here in 63 so know differently..

But were you in Cyprus when the Turkish Cypriot Auxiliary Police were employed by the colonial power to suppress and torture Greek Cypriot victims in 1958? Were you in Cyprus when in 1958 when the Turkish Cypriots started the first inter-communal riots that resulted in the eviction of Armenians and Greek Cypriots in Nicosia? What do you have to say about the Guenyeli massacre?

Of course the Turkish Cypriots got the worst of it in 1963 but it was not the "genocide" you make it out to be. Both sides saw the Zurich Agreement as an interim measure towards either partition or Enosis.

[Barney]

Turkey intervening as a Guarantor in 1974 ( whether or not they had other intentions ) for me, was a Godsend. You had to be a TC in Cyprus at the time to understand the significance of Turkey's move, regardless of the rest of the World's disagreements. Families were being wiped out and there was no other Guarantor to the island that gave a damn. The feelings of the GC to Turkey's intervention was no doubt the opposite. Too much hurt has already been done ( on both sides ) for any amends, so that both GC and TC can today live again side by side amongst each other, as they did in the past. There will always be a the few that will cause trouble, as you see today when TC's go south and are confronted by a handful of RoC Nationalists. Can you imagine what would happen if these incidents took place after a re-unified Cyprus?

Soner, can you be more specific about families being wiped out. My information is that there was very little inter communal violence in the years immediately before the invasion. The worst massacres took place after the second phase of the invasion in August 1974. The current distribution of population means that in the event of a solution Cypriots will not live side by side as they did in the past but as time passes no doubt some will move around the island, as you know several thousand Turkish Cypriots already live in the south.

[Barney]

In reply to message 19 I suggest you read this http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Articles/c ... lers.shtml before you talk about the Annan Plan. Alfred De Zayas is an expert on international law.

Denktash, the long standing "hero" of Cyprus also rejected the Annan Plan because he believed it gave too much away.

[tomsteel]

barney, the Brits employed TCs as auxiliary police because EOKA murdered GCs who took on that role. Read 'The Akritas Plan', the GC Government's intention to free Cyprus of its 1960 agreed formation and the lead to genocide of the TCs or to force them to leave as in the Cretan Island scenario of earlier years.

Greeks and Turks have been at each others throats for thousands of years over many issues.

[Groucho]

"There are UN resolutions that condemn Turkey's invasion" - Oh so there are - UN resolutions - not worth the paper they are written on otherwise they would have intervened when GC EOKA-B terrorists (who the south to this day regard as heroes) were committing acts of outrageous ethnic cleansing between 1963 and 1974...

Look up UN in the dictionary and you will see:-

The UN - good at sitting on their hands

See also:-

Waste of space.

[Groucho]

I've said it before and I think it's worth repeating - that when and as both sides come to a Truth and Reconciliation Commission and admit exactly what they got up to - there is a chance of meaningful reconciliation... it's a shame but all the time the two sides stick to a narrative than absolves them of any and all blame and only points fingers at the other community then the actual truth will prevent a solution...

Who will go first? Nobody that's who...

[DenizIsmail]

Barney- I hope now you can see that TC and GC cannot live together. As Soner quite rightly put it 'If and when all talks breakdown, the embargo on the TRNC must be lifted, so far that's 42 years of injustice put upon the TC. '

[Lurucinali]

All very interesting stuff, but we need to think about the core issues a little bit more in detail. I will get back to 1955 and 1958 as well as 1963. However let’s get something clear, I am not pro-Greek Cypriot, far from it. I have been banned on Greek Cypriot forums for being TMT supporter.
I am first and foremost a Cypriot and happened to be of Turkish Cypriot origin. I have no wish for anybody to split my country. The support the BBF talks with political equality between the two communities and am very hopeful that we are finally near a solution. We may or may not get there, but they are very close. At least both leaders agree on the need for urgency and are carrying out a serious effort to come to an agreement.

Let’s begin with 1974, was it intervention or invasion. Certainly the EOKA -B elements were hell bent on killing as many Turkish Cypriots as possible, but in reality they killed more Greek Cypriots then Turkish Cypriots in 1974. Certainly the landing forces arrived to intervene according to the Guarantee Agreement signed in 1960. They arrived after Makarios asked in the UN for help from the Guarantor countries so there is no problem with the legality of that. And I also accept that sometimes we can literally fight fire with fire and put it out. But let’s not have any illusions here, The aim of the Turkish State was not to protect RoC which is what they should have done, the idea was to divide the country into two and set up a form of BBF. In other words change to constitution that is some protection. There is nothing in the Guarantee Agreement that allows a Guarantor power to take a third of the island and move 60,000 Turkish Cypriots North and 160,000 Greek Cypriots South. I also agree that some Turkish Cypriots wanted to move north but certainly I have personally met people who did not want to move and were moved at gunpoint.

Having taken control of a third of the island, then bringing her own population to settle in Northern Cyprus then changes the situation to one of invasion. She now controls every aspect of life in the TRNC. President Erdogan insults us by calling us “Besleme".

[Barney]

barney, the Brits employed TCs as auxiliary police because EOKA murdered GCs who took on that role. Read 'The Akritas Plan', the GC Government's intention to free Cyprus of its 1960 agreed formation and the lead to genocide of the TCs or to force them to leave as in the Cretan Island scenario of earlier years.

Greeks and Turks have been at each others throats for thousands of years over many issues.

And the TC police were quite happy to stand by whilst GC and Armenian properties were looted and burned, they willingly tortured GC suspects for their masters. Why are you surprised the events of 1963 took place.

Nothing to say about Guenyeli then? Any verifiable figures on the so called genocide then?

You are right Greeks and Turks have been at each others throats for hundreds of years (not thousands). The events in Cyprus during the last century were a continuation of that conflict - that is the reason why it's wrong to heap the Cyprus Problem on only one side in 1963. Add to the mix and the island's strategic importance to UK and its allies, add the policy of divide and rule and you have a recipe for the disaster we see today.

Bottom line is Turkey has to return a significant part of the "trnc" in order to get recognition of its conquest in the north. International recognition of a separate State in the north can only happen if the ROC agrees to it otherwise it will never happen and the "trnc" will gradually be absorbed by Turkey to the detriment of local people.

[tomsteel]

Then Greece has to return a significant portion of Crete to Turkey. Have you actually read the paper? I think the Helen of Troy, Wooden Horse was more than hundreds of years. For crying out loud man, read, research and understand before you spout GC propaganda.

[Soner]

Barney, see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,_ ... a_massacre

As I remember rightly, we ( mother and two younger brothers) were in the village of Psyllatos ( Ipsilat - now Suluce ), told via radio to gather at the coffee house to surrender or be shot. I truly believe what happened in the other 3 villages at the time was about to happen to our village. This was on 20th July 1974 as I remember after fleeing the village, planes from Turkey flew over us.

If you get a chance read my book http://www.thegreenline.co.uk

[frontalman]

Soner, Barney knows about the three massacred villages, I've told him on here before but he chose to ignore it.

[Lurucinali]

Nobody is ignoring anything that happened in 1974. There were also the men that were killed in Dohni. However it is quite a simple view to take to claim that Greek Cypriots did these killings. It was EOKA-b who did the killings. You seem to ignore the simple fact that EOKA-b also killed more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots. You also seem to ignore the Greek Cypriot civilians killed by the Turkish Army as well as TMT in 1974 and they run into thousands not hundreds.

As to the fact the Greek Cypriots cannot live Turkish Cypriots is almost laughable if it was not so serious. The two communities lived together in mixed villages for hundreds of years with no real problems till 1947 when the Americans did not like the closeness of left-wing of the two communities particularly the mining workers. Joining a union with Greek Cypriots was banned by TMT, and people who did not obey the order were either driven away from Cyprus or killed. Are we really going to ignore the drivers of what caused the Cyprus problem and make up theories at the level of a two year old mentality?

[frontalman]

Are you and Barney the same person, since you are speaking for him? I think a majority of Turkish Cypriots would not agree that they could live in peace with GCs, and what race were EOKA-b? Chinese?

[wondering1]

Turkey intervening as a Guarantor in 1974 ( whether or not they had other intentions ) for me, was a Godsend. You had to be a TC in Cyprus at the time to understand the significance of Turkey's move, regardless of the rest of the World's disagreements. Families were being wiped out and there was no other Guarantor to the island that gave a damn. The feelings of the GC to Turkey's intervention was no doubt the opposite. Too much hurt has already been done ( on both sides ) for any amends, so that both GC and TC can today live again side by side amongst each other, as they did in the past. There will always be a the few that will cause trouble, as you see today when TC's go south and are confronted by a handful of RoC Nationalists. Can you imagine what would happen if these incidents took place after a re-unified Cyprus?

Soner, can you be more specific about families being wiped out. My information is that there was very little inter communal violence in the years immediately before the invasion. The worst massacres took place after the second phase of the invasion in August 1974. The current distribution of population means that in the event of a solution Cypriots will not live side by side as they did in the past but as time passes no doubt some will move around the island, as you know several thousand Turkish Cypriots already live in the south.

How is it that someone who refers to information and not personal experience believes themselves to be an authority on this subject that occurred among the normal citizens of the time and was not even accurately reported on an international level?

It is so frustrating and very typical that Deniz, someone who actually lost people in the war as a Turkish Cypriot manages to have less of a voice, less force in her words, gets less of a say than Greek propaganda from someone that seems not to have even been present!

It really couldn't be more telling that anyone on "Cyprus forum" found to be guilty of supporting Turkish Cypriots will get totally abused while the Greek voice on the Turkish Cypriot forum gets to freely speak their views.

I will be more specific about families being wiped out, clearly the "information" you refer to as providing the basis of your knowledge has fallen short of reality. Entire families were murdered as a regular occurrence, in the most disgusting ways.

I don't need to cite any wikipedia reference, because I had family this happened to and have been told the events by first hand witnesses. When they had all been instructed to go into the Cinema a a Greek soldier walked in holding the hand grenades alongside a GC villages who was my family's neighbor. They had lived together for many years like brothers. They recognized each other and only then did the GC villager tell the soldier not to do it and they released them all - that time. It actually happened to others.

The Greek propaganda machine is as well refined as the Russian one, the Turkish are useless at propaganda, they seem not even to be able to get the actual truth out about events where they were in the right - let alone lies.

I started the video at the top, I thought to myself it was great that there was documentary I had not seen. But it looked to be a Greek documentary, sorry but I don't need to hear about how tragic it is that they couldn't get aware with murdering ALL of us.

Bless Turkey for stopping the massacres.

As a final thought, how many extreme right wing political parties are on the North Side? None.

How many on the Greek side? Look it up, they are growing in force and in numbers. Attacking TCs now with regularity for daring to visit the South Side.

[Lurucinali]

Are you and Barney the same person, since you are speaking for him? I think a majority of Turkish Cypriots would not agree that they could live in peace with GCs, and what race were EOKA-b? Chinese?

Certainly I am not Barney, but I have to say that to blame 600,000 people for the actions of perhaps 10 or 15 people is a little off the mark. I do however feel that the lack of action of the RoC for investigating these matters is a bit more difficult to understand. I can only put it down to the fact that there is only ceasefire between the two communities and if perhaps we had a peace agreement those bar_stewards who committed murder on both sides would be brought to justice.

So a truth and reconciliation committee is absolutely essential at some point to clear the air and understand who did what and who gave the orders too.

But people have just jumped around like a headless chicken throwing out all sorts of things in to the air to justify their own beliefs. I like to be a little systematic.

Let’s take time prior to 1955. Certainly people were demonstrating for enosis but people were also setting up trade unions and other associations to work together too. This is purely a healthy political situation and is practised in every country. The problem is lack of real understanding of what really was going on and taking things out of context because it suits their ideology. People always refer to the fact that before 1955 in plebiscites that took place, 95% of GCs voted for enosis. I got news for you chaps amongst those people were also Turkish Cypriots too. To understand how this came about you have to understand how these plebiscites took place.
First of all it was not all the people voting it was Church goers that were taking part as the voting was done outside a church in each town and village. Secondly this was not secret ballot, there were two books on a table outside the church, one red and one black. Red for against Enosis and black for Enosis. People had to sign these books in full view of their bosses whom they dependent on for work. So under any system this form of voting is floored. They were meaningless. But despite these votes, people did not stop living together, they continued to live in mixed villages with no problems what so ever.

So when it comes to the troubles and 1955, you have to look at this in the same way. 1955, EOKA was set up to remove the colonial power from Cyprus. Their aim although was Enosis they never claimed that as they knew that there would not be any support for it. They claimed it was self-determination. Even in 1963, the fighting was for self-determination. Of course there were Enosis written on walls and again blaming all the GCs for this is also wrong. When IRA wrote slogans on walls you did not blame the whole of the Irish people so why should you start now.

There was also Turkish Cypriots who were demonstrating against the British rule too at the time. I remember an indecent and Turkish Cypriot was run over by a British Armoured car and crushed to death. The real problem between the communities begun at this point and the reason was very simple. The Brits recruited Turkish Cypriot as police to suppress the rising in 1955. Of course the colonial power was ruthless, they would hang even a young man for not cooperating with no evidence for any wrong doing. And of course the hanging was carried out by Turkish Cypriot policemen. But at this point no civilians were involved. Only all Cypriots who were either police or worked for the police. Both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots were attacked for this. EOKA then begun to also attack the relatives of the British Soldiers and started killing women and children. And of course the British responded by hanging more Greek Cypriots with or without evidence.

The Cyprus problem as we underrated it today began in 1958 by the formation of TMT. At this point the civilians got effected. These in the places where they were in a minority moved away to areas where their own community was a majority. The division begun, but how, how did these people suddenly upped stick and leave their homes and their fields and their livelihoods. To scare people TMT put bombs in the predominantly Turkish areas and accused EOKA and EOKA did the same in Greek Cypriot areas. They put a bomb in their areas and blamed TMT. However if you speak to people who left their homes, they will tell you that they believed they would be able to return in a few days and it would normalise again. In my village when the minority Greek Cypriot returned 3 days after leaving their homes were emptied of everything including doors and windows. And of course once they saw that they did not return.

From that point on wards an eye for an eye policy was practised by both TMT and EOKA. Unfortunately history has taught us that an eye for an eye police invariably leaves everybody blind.

Of course not forgetting that these two organisation also killed their own people who opposed them, because after all their opposition was left wingers and this is precisely why CIA funded these people to eliminate all left wingers from the region. CIA did not care what else these people did so long as they looked after the American interests. This policy has not change since that time. CIA also set up Taliban, Hamas and Daesh for the same reasons. They will continue to do this till wake up. Up to this point the western people are oblivious to what really goes around them.

[Lurucinali]

here is another clip of a TMT member telling us about the Cyprus Problem. Well worth a view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJTaJPF8o6M

[Barney]

Soner, Barney knows about the three massacred villages, I've told him on here before but he chose to ignore it.

No, I didn't ignore it nor did I excuse it, this is what I said.

"As I said earlier thousands died following the 1974 invasion. The murders you refer to in August 1974 were a consequence of the second stage of the Turkish invasion when reports of atrocities committed by the Turkish armed forces reached the Greek Cypriots - not that justifies the actions of the killers. Turkey knew that isolated TCs would be at the mercy of the EOKA B thugs but was determined to satisfy its long standing aim of taking part of Cyprus regardless of the consequences for all Cypriots."

[Barney]

Barney, see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,_ ... a_massacre

As I remember rightly, we ( mother and two younger brothers) were in the village of Psyllatos ( Ipsilat - now Suluce ), told via radio to gather at the coffee house to surrender or be shot. I truly believe what happened in the other 3 villages at the time was about to happen to our village. This was on 20th July 1974 as I remember after fleeing the village, planes from Turkey flew over us.

If you get a chance read my book http://www.thegreenline.co.uk

I'll take a look at your book.
Soner, I don't dispute what tragically happened to individual Cypriots on both sides. I am aware of horror stories that happened to my relatives in July/August 1974 but it serves no purpose to relate them here. What I do dispute is the hysterical claims of genocide committed by Greek Cypriots, the murders between 1963 - 1974 were in the hundreds not thousands - unless of course someone is able to provide verifiable figures that prove otherwise.

Much of what happened post independence is a manifestation of long standing Greek Turkish enmity, it didn't just start in Cyprus. When one side outnumbered the other the minority got the worst of it, for example in Crete, Smyrna, Eastern Thrace, Imvros /Tenedos, and Istanbul. Unfortunately new comers to the north of Cyprus tend only to believe what they are told by locals, they dismiss the other side of the story as Greek propaganda because they are unable or unwilling to accept that both sides must share the blame.

No doubt this will be dismissed as propaganda but it comes from British Government sources,
"Arson and rioting by the Turks started at about midnight in Nicosia tonight. Turks started a number of fires in Greek premises in the town, one a serious one, but all have now been brought under control. Some clashes between Turks and Greeks. Greeks in Nicosia and some neighbouring villages range [sic] church bells and excited crowds of Greeks gathered. Known casualties two Greek-Cypriot dead ande a number wounded."

Πηγή: Turkish bombs and riots in Cyprus: Handling the facts http://wp.me/p3kVLZ-78I
http://mignatiou.com/2014/05/turkish-bo ... the-facts/

[Barney]

Turkey intervening as a Guarantor in 1974 ( whether or not they had other intentions ) for me, was a Godsend. You had to be a TC in Cyprus at the time to understand the significance of Turkey's move, regardless of the rest of the World's disagreements. Families were being wiped out and there was no other Guarantor to the island that gave a damn. The feelings of the GC to Turkey's intervention was no doubt the opposite. Too much hurt has already been done ( on both sides ) for any amends, so that both GC and TC can today live again side by side amongst each other, as they did in the past. There will always be a the few that will cause trouble, as you see today when TC's go south and are confronted by a handful of RoC Nationalists. Can you imagine what would happen if these incidents took place after a re-unified Cyprus?

Soner, can you be more specific about families being wiped out. My information is that there was very little inter communal violence in the years immediately before the invasion. The worst massacres took place after the second phase of the invasion in August 1974. The current distribution of population means that in the event of a solution Cypriots will not live side by side as they did in the past but as time passes no doubt some will move around the island, as you know several thousand Turkish Cypriots already live in the south.

How is it that someone who refers to information and not personal experience believes themselves to be an authority on this subject that occurred among the normal citizens of the time and was not even accurately reported on an international level?

It is so frustrating and very typical that Deniz, someone who actually lost people in the war as a Turkish Cypriot manages to have less of a voice, less force in her words, gets less of a say than Greek propaganda from someone that seems not to have even been present!

It really couldn't be more telling that anyone on "Cyprus forum" found to be guilty of supporting Turkish Cypriots will get totally abused while the Greek voice on the Turkish Cypriot forum gets to freely speak their views.

I will be more specific about families being wiped out, clearly the "information" you refer to as providing the basis of your knowledge has fallen short of reality. Entire families were murdered as a regular occurrence, in the most disgusting ways.

I don't need to cite any wikipedia reference, because I had family this happened to and have been told the events by first hand witnesses. When they had all been instructed to go into the Cinema a a Greek soldier walked in holding the hand grenades alongside a GC villages who was my family's neighbor. They had lived together for many years like brothers. They recognized each other and only then did the GC villager tell the soldier not to do it and they released them all - that time. It actually happened to others.

The Greek propaganda machine is as well refined as the Russian one, the Turkish are useless at propaganda, they seem not even to be able to get the actual truth out about events where they were in the right - let alone lies.

I started the video at the top, I thought to myself it was great that there was documentary I had not seen. But it looked to be a Greek documentary, sorry but I don't need to hear about how tragic it is that they couldn't get aware with murdering ALL of us.

Bless Turkey for stopping the massacres.

As a final thought, how many extreme right wing political parties are on the North Side? None.

How many on the Greek side? Look it up, they are growing in force and in numbers. Attacking TCs now with regularity for daring to visit the South Side.

For your information I have close GC relatives who have related their personal experiences of Cyprus and in particular the invasion. The worst massacres took place AFTER Turkey invaded - thousands were killed on both sides AFTER Turkey invaded.
I have visited Cyprus many times recently, the last time after driving past my stolen house, I visited my Grandparent's desecrated graves in Komi Kebir and the looted churches, would you like to see the photos? Both sides suffered, stop trying to play the innocent victim.
By the way, how come several thousand Turkish Cypriots CHOOSE to live in the south of the ROC if things are so bad?

[JBA]

Barney

Unfortunately new comers to the north of Cyprus tend only to believe what they are told by locals

I have only lived here for 11 years but it has been my experience that Turkish Cypriots are very reluctant to talk about the past. They want only to forget and get on with their lives in the peace that 1974 brought for them. Occasionally, if you know one very well, they will tell you about some event they were involved in - but they would rather not, even though I am known around here as a sympathiser of their cause.

Over the border, however, they never blo**dy shut up about it - it is the only thing in their lives. I've only been over once - that was with friends on a shopping trip to Ledra St. Two incidents occurred - both were near the (then) Ledra St. wall.

There was a large sweet shop and a guy was standing outside offering passers-by a tray of ??? Delight to try. I simply said "No thank you - I don't like Turkish Delight" I found out it was "Cyprus Delight" but only after he had finished his 5 minute diatribe at the top of his voice about the evil Turks.

15 minutes later an Englishman lifted his son up to peer over the wall which was 20 metres away from him. 2 men from different directions ran over and said "You must not do that - the Turks will shoot him - that is why we have the wall". Of course, like the '??? Delight man' they were loud enough for many other tourists to hear.

I have never been back.

[Barney]

Then Greece has to return a significant portion of Crete to Turkey. Have you actually read the paper? I think the Helen of Troy, Wooden Horse was more than hundreds of years. For crying out loud man, read, research and understand before you spout GC propaganda.

Oh really? Is Turkey going to return Izmir to the Greeks, what about the property of the thousands of Greeks who were kicked out of Istanbul following the 1955 Pogrom? For your information the Turks (many were actually Greek speaking muslim converts) of Crete were part of the population exchange agreed in the Lausanne Treaty 1923.

As for ME doing research, be serious will you. There were no Turks in what is now Turkey at the time of Helen of Troy, they arrived a thousand or so years later. http://ottomanempire.info/arrive.htm
Methinks YOU are a victim of propaganda!

[Barney]

Barney

Unfortunately new comers to the north of Cyprus tend only to believe what they are told by locals

I have only lived here for 11 years but it has been my experience that Turkish Cypriots are very reluctant to talk about the past. They want only to forget and get on with their lives in the peace that 1974 brought for them. Occasionally, if you know one very well, they will tell you about some event they were involved in - but they would rather not, even though I am known around here as a sympathiser of their cause.

Over the border, however, they never blo**dy shut up about it - it is the only thing in their lives. I've only been over once - that was with friends on a shopping trip to Ledra St. Two incidents occurred - both were near the (then) Ledra St. wall.

There was a large sweet shop and a guy was standing outside offering passers-by a tray of ??? Delight to try. I simply said "No thank you - I don't like Turkish Delight" I found out it was "Cyprus Delight" but only after he had finished his 5 minute diatribe at the top of his voice about the evil Turks.

15 minutes later an Englishman lifted his son up to peer over the wall which was 20 metres away from him. 2 men from different directions ran over and said "You must not do that - the Turks will shoot him - that is why we have the wall". Of course, like the '??? Delight man' they were loud enough for many other tourists to hear.

I have never been back.

It's probably got something to do with the fact that they are pretty sore about what they lost in the north. How would you feel if you or your relatives were kicked out of their homes and lost everything. The population and territorial exchanges were not equal, four times as many GCs moved south as TCs moved north. There was so much empty property in the north that the TC refugees had plenty of choice and the surplus was given to immigrants from Turkey or sold to foreigners. Tens of thousands of Greek Cypriots had to live in tents for years. The TCs who moved north even had an expression that translates as "Greek Loot". My own house has been occupied since 1974 and "sold" at least once - guess what, I've had no compensation nor am I ever likely to get any. I'm British, born in UK but have a Greek name.

I have relatives who have homes in Greek Famagusta, they are pretty sore too, they can actually see their homes but have been denied them since 1974 for no good reason. Supporters of the "trnc" harp on about the injustice of non recognition, isolation and embargoes but many fail to see the other side's loss. I get the impression here that many feel that the Greek Cypriots deserve what they got and the only victims in Cyprus are Turkish Cypriots.

As for being shot at the Green Line, it has not happened recently thank goodness but it certainly did happen on both sides post 1974. http://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Problem/soldier.html

[DenizIsmail]

Barney you are so bitter. You are using phrases such as 'Stolen' house, looted churches? Do you have the photos of Turkish Cypriots being buried alive? I do. They were given to me by my late father. Barney why are you on a Turkish Cypriot Forum if you feel so bitter? What are you trying to prove? It is proven from the comments on this forum that TC and GC do not get along!

[Lurucinali]

it is an established fact now that in 1974, 160,000 Greek Cypriots were forced to move south and 60,000 Turkish Cypriots were forced to move north. it is also fact that there were Turkish Cypriots remained in the amongst the GCs and were not harmed. Pile is another example where people refused to move and were fine too.

This was forced on the Cypriots by the cold war and we played our part in it. It is time to accept harsh realities. Listen to Tahsin Hoca talk, he has inside knowledge, he was an original member of TMT. There are English subtitles with the clip.

I learned something today I did not realise all these years. In 1974 the Russians approved the Turkish Intervention for up to the first phase and even got the Bulgarians to send aircraft fuel for the Turkish Air force. But they had strict assurances from Ankara that RoC would remain non-aligned.

[Barney]

Barney you are so bitter. You are using phrases such as 'Stolen' house, looted churches? Do you have the photos of Turkish Cypriots being buried alive? I do. They were given to me by my late father. Barney why are you on a Turkish Cypriot Forum if you feel so bitter? What are you trying to prove? It is proven from the comments on this forum that TC and GC do not get along!

I'm bitter because I'm denied my house simply because I have a Greek name. I'm British, my mother's surname was Cooper but my father had a Greek surname. Had my name been Cooper I would have been able to keep the property - is that good enough for you? I'm sorry that you lost relatives in Cyprus, do you feel the same for me? Two of my elderly relatives ran into their house in Trikomo when they saw the Turkish troops approaching, the soldiers lobbed in a grenade and left them to die. I'm here trying to point out to the expats that there are two sides to the Cyprus tragedy, Turkish Cypriots are not the only victims, your problem is that you can't bear to have some of your one-sided views exposed for the bias that it is.

[Barney]

it is an established fact now that in 1974, 160,000 Greek Cypriots were forced to move south and 60,000 Turkish Cypriots were forced to move north. it is also fact that there were Turkish Cypriots remained in the amongst the GCs and were not harmed. Pile is another example where people refused to move and were fine too.

This was forced on the Cypriots by the cold war and we played our part in it. It is time to accept harsh realities. Listen to Tahsin Hoca talk, he has inside knowledge, he was an original member of TMT. There are English subtitles with the clip.

I learned something today I did not realise all these years. In 1974 the Russians approved the Turkish Intervention for up to the first phase and even got the Bulgarians to send aircraft fuel for the Turkish Air force. But they had strict assurances from Ankara that RoC would remain non-aligned.

The Russians also hoped that a conflict between Greece and Turkey would follow and the NATO alliance in that part of the world would be weakened.

If you are interested there's some interesting stuff about US, and particularly Kissinger's, involvement in Cyprus. http://2001-2009.state.gov/documents/or ... /96606.pdf

PS, are you Yfred who used to be on CF?

[turtle]

Barney
I for one welcome your posts and views, I'm not saying I agree with them but do think you have the right to say them,..Having said that I do think your aims/goals here are mainly a financial one for your families loss (not your loss) and it appears you are motivated with the prospect of a financial gain sometime soon.

Not once have you put forward any views or argument for a sensible settlement,... surely your argument is with Turkey and the TC people who have turned your families (not yours) lands into what it is today and not with the British expats.

[jofra]

Not sure whether this programme/film about Lurucina/Akincilar (made/broadcast by Aljazeera!) has been mentioned/highlighted on here before, but I offer it without fear or favour - I personally found it interesting and touching....