Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

Guarantor powers are not needed for a new federal Cyprus, South Cyprus government spokesman Nicos Christodoulides has reiterated.

Keeping Turkey as guarantor will negatively impact the Turkish Cypriots because this will allow Turkey to interfere with their policy making decisions after a settlement, Christodoulides told Greek Cypriot daily Phileleftheros.

Developments after the failed coup attempt on 15 July underscore this argument, he claimed. He argued that this demonstrates that there can be no military guarantees by Turkey or the Turkish army stationed in the North

According to the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee, Greece, Turkey, and Great Britain are the guarantor powers for the independence, territorial integrity and security of Cyprus.

The Greek Cypriots and Greece want to scrap this arrangement on the grounds that it is outdated, however Turkey remains insistent on keeping it guarantor status.

Christodoulides said that the Turkish Cypriots must choose “which future they prefer”; being a part of a reunited country, which is also part of the EU, or alignment with Turkey “with the developments we experience today”.

This was taken from LGC News today

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

He thinks we are stupid.

It was also in the South Cyprus Mail.

I think that the only possible response to that is 'Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?'

THey keep on harping on about the Hellenisation of Cyprus as though it's a 'Good Thing'

Flipping 'eck, Phil, you were quick!

Notice that nobody seems against the UK remaining a guarantor power! I suppose if you have to have a guarantor power then having one that puts its head in the ground is the best bet!

Mick, that's assuming that the UK would want to , or be willing to, remain as a guarantor power !

The Uk has bases on the island and there's no reason Turkey and Greece couldn't have a presence for a given period of time (say 20 years)

Keith, that is also assuming that the UK remember that they already are one! I am sure they will have a good solid reason not to be one anyway - we are no longer in the EU springs to mind - lol.

You can look at the past to see where you are going for the future but you cannot live by the past, you get left behind. it is like saying because of the WW2 we must not join the EU because the Germans are in it. We have to move on with our lives and live in todays world not 50 years ago. I was actually living in Cyprus in the 1960s and early 70s and I suspect most of you here were not even in Cyprus at that time. You seem to have inherited your negativity from your parents. I have seen the cruelty of some Greek Cypriots at this time but I have also seen the generosity of other Greek Cypriots too. This was not an attack by Greek Cypriots against Turkish Cypriots. We had a group of 5000 or so GC militia who was hell bent on Enosis and another 5000 TC militia who was hell bent on taksim. Chaos ensued not because Cypriots could not get on but because of first of all the polices pursued by Russia/America against each other as well as Turkey/Greece and their ambition of taking control of Cyprus. It is childish to think that this was simply a case of GCs not being able to get on with TCs. Those conditions are no longer relevant. Instead the same thing is happening to Syria and Iraq today. As the old Geldof song said "Thank god its them and not us" as it were.

Having lived in Cyprus in that period and seeing what Erdogan is doing to Turkey today, that last thing I would wish for is this megalomaniac guaranteeing my safety. Being in the EU and having our own federal state is sufficient guarantee, so long as the island is disarmed properly and we only have a small army lightly armed with a good police force in each state.

What percentage of Turkish Cypriots living here in TRNC today, who have a vote would agree with you, do you think?

The EU guarantee is worthless .They guaranteed Ukraine and encouraged them to join the EU now they have lost Crimea and the east of Ukraine
The EU is a paper tiger .Whatever your thoughts on Erdogan he is a better option than the racially/ religious biased south & eu

I agree, it doesn't take much to work out the the powers that be in the South have absolutely no good intentions towards the Turkish Cypriots.

frontalman wrote:What percentage of Turkish Cypriots living here in TRNC today, who have a vote would agree with you, do you think?

12 months ago i would have agreed with you but having seen what Erdogan has done to Turkey I am afraid I have changed my mind. For those who are not fully aware of the Cyprus Problem, let me remind you of an incidnet in 1963. Dr Kucuk wrote to Ismet Inonu asking for Turkey to come and save the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek Cypriots after the troubles and when the Turkish Cypriots MPs had left the government. His advice was return to government and make your peace. He followed on by saying, "we will come and save you from form the Greek Cypriots, but who will save you from us?". Inonu knew exactly what he was talking about and has been proved right. You may choose to ignore realities and pay the price later.

Lurucinali, what options are there for TCs living in the TRNC then? Please list them with their pros and cons, as you see the situation here. There is an old adage, "He who pays the piper, calls the tune." If you do not want Turkish financial support anymore, fine - but the TRNC will fail almost immediately, as your economy is broke without the prop from Turkey.

I still would take my chances on turkey as a guarantee. Than your ideas. As the rest would sit back and do nothing if there was a flare up. The eu is so great look what happened in Kosovo who helped the folk out there from milosovich?

We choose to live the way we do. We were able to feed ourselves in the 60s and early 70s and we shall do it again. We shall have to see what set up there is in the agreement regarding economy and financial aid. Those who contributed to the Cyprus Problem should do the right thing and put their hands in their pockets. It is time to pay for their crimes.

It seems the meeting today was very good. They have almost agreed on all other issues accept Guarantee and Security and that will need all the guarantors to be present to be dealt with.

Lurucinali, I was here in 65 and again from 69 to 72. A question for you then: Will you be happy to make the peace with the South and get rid of all guarantor powers, thereby becoming reliant upon the truth and friendship of a sister nation of Greek Cypriots who have done everything in their power, including changing history by lies, deceit and the education of their generations of children to have your country eradicated from the face of the earth?

If so then you are a true believer in the kindness of the human race - for myself I trust in the age old and never proven wrong saying:

Once bitten, twice shy!!!

Lurucinali, you are naive beyond belief.

I was here in 1960 for a few years and I have been coming back and forth ever since. I have lived here in the TRNC for over 12 years and know a little about how the GC's think.

Yes of course there are a few good GC's but the overwhelming majority still think as they always did; That the Turkish Cypriots (the dark ones) are a inferior people who are only fit to do menial work for the superior Hellenistic GC's. If you really don't believe that then you need treatment.

As for the protection of the EU, well words nearly fail me. The Eu will never protect you or anyone else, paper tiger doesn't come close. The only people who will stop the GC's from repeating their attempt at ethnic cleansing are the Turkish armed forces. Erdogan may not be everyone's choice but at least he'll keep you people alive.

Do you really believe the GC's have changed? Surely not.

If Turkey walks away from the TRNC you people will go the way of the Cretan Turks. Forced at gunpoint to leave - that is if they haven't been shot first.

God help us from the EU.......and bear in mind of course that the EU may not even exist in a few years time, what will you do then for security?

We choose to live the way we do. We were able to feed ourselves in the 60s and early 70s and we shall do it again. We shall have to see what set up there is in the agreement regarding economy and financial aid. Those who contributed to the Cyprus Problem should do the right thing and put their hands in their pockets. It is time to pay for their crimes.

You harp back to an era when there were few Cypriots and expats in the north (60s/70s, compared to 2016). You cannot feed the explosion of expats, tourists and locals currently here now without imports, plus very few young Cypriots want to work in agriculture or farming of livestock. Who were the "contributors to the Cyprus Problem who must put their hands in their pockets"? You really must stop generalising and get real in the current world and future to follow.

Without Turkish financial support, the TRNC would sink without trace within months. If you cannot see and appreciate this fact, then you are lost in your own dream world. How would your fellow TCs thank you for that I wonder?

Have you seen his profile, it says United Kingdom !!

woodspeckie wrote:Have you seen his profile, it says United Kingdom !!

So does a lot of people's!

Yours doesn't give any location at all - does that mean that you don't actually exist? - or that you live in Cyberspace?

So what you guys are saying the same forces that were present in 1963 are present in Cyprus today. We have a Cypriot President that believes in Enosis and the Interior minister is in charge of Elam thugs. Turkish Deepsate is still intact arming and training TMT ready for a fight and Greece has a military dictatorship hell bent on destroying the RoC and joining it with Greece. We also have a coldwar between Russia and America trying to pull Cyprus into their camp. I could have sworn the world of poitics have moved on since then. We have Erdogan that pretty well destroyed the deepsate in Turkey, Greece has a communist Prime Minister and America and Russia have pretty much got their hands on the gas deposits that are around Cyprus. What is there to drive us back to 1963 now. Oh by the way I nearly forgot Greece had a hidden division of 12,000 soldiers around the island. Perhaps they have been hidden in caves and will suddenly resurface.

When it comes to Crimea or Eastern Ukraine, you obviouely are oblivious as to how so many russian speakers ended up in Ukraine during Kruscheh years. We'll leave that to another day.

But if some of you guys were in Cyprus in the 60s, perhaps you can tell us who was controling the enclaves and what exactly was their remit. Who put them there and why?

There is an old saying we used to say. "It is on the table".

Well finally everything is on the table for discussion. Mid September we shall have some news. Never in 53 years have been here before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBFKen4xCyM

Lurucinali wrote:So what you guys are saying the same forces that were present in 1963 are present in Cyprus today. We have a Cypriot President that believes in Enosis and the Interior minister is in charge of Elam thugs. Turkish Deepsate is still intact arming and training TMT ready for a fight and Greece has a military dictatorship hell bent on destroying the RoC and joining it with Greece. We also have a coldwar between Russia and America trying to pull Cyprus into their camp. I could have sworn the world of poitics have moved on since then. We have Erdogan that pretty well destroyed the deepsate in Turkey, Greece has a communist Prime Minister and America and Russia have pretty much got their hands on the gas deposits that are around Cyprus. What is there to drive us back to 1963 now. Oh by the way I nearly forgot Greece had a hidden division of 12,000 soldiers around the island. Perhaps they have been hidden in caves and will suddenly resurface.

When it comes to Crimea or Eastern Ukraine, you obviouely are oblivious as to how so many russian speakers ended up in Ukraine during Kruscheh years. We'll leave that to another day.

But if some of you guys were in Cyprus in the 60s, perhaps you can tell us who was controling the enclaves and what exactly was their remit. Who put them there and why?

Now you do show your ignorance. Every year here in the TRNC and in the South, there are ceremonies and commemorations to keep alive the memories and the mindset that prevailed at the time of the troubles. If things had moved on as you suggest, then these entrenched shows of support of martyrs and confirmations of a unified sense of purpose on either side would have long since ceased. You are coming across as someone living in cloud cuckoo land. Maybe years of living away have made you unaware of how your compatriots feel.

Lurucinali, I asked you a question and still await an answer? Perhaps you misunderstood the question so let me put it in more simple terms for you:

"Will you be happy to make the peace with the South and get rid of all guarantor powers?"

and let me follow it up with another question for you:

You say that in mid September we will have some news - "What "News" do you expect to come from the current round of Peace Talks?"

Out of interest for you - as you may have missed it when you returned to live here some 12 years ago - here is an interesting article at the following:

http://cyprusscene.com/2013/10/03/peace ... -cypriots/

Do you really think there will be any other outcome to the current round of money spinning talks?

waddo wrote:Lurucinali, I asked you a question and still await an answer? Perhaps you misunderstood the question so let me put it in more simple terms for you:

"Will you be happy to make the peace with the South and get rid of all guarantor powers?"

and let me follow it up with another question for you:

You say that in mid September we will have some news - "What "News" do you expect to come from the current round of Peace Talks?"

Out of interest for you - as you may have missed it when you returned to live here some 12 years ago - here is an interesting article at the following:

http://cyprusscene.com/2013/10/03/peace ... -cypriots/

Do you really think there will be any other outcome to the current round of money spinning talks?

Clearly the Guarantee Agreement will not go in one moment which means that the TA will be withdrawn in phases too. No reason why the Guarantee cannot also be removed in phases by consent from both sides. It will take time to build trust. I suspect it will be reviews every 5 years and decision will be made then. Lets see what state Turkey is in 5 years time and then we can talk more. For all you know Turkey will be like Afghanista and if it is, thanks but no thanks.

The news I expect from current talks is that they have had a full agreement on all chapters except Security and Guarantee and they will go off to have meetings which will include the Guarantor powers to find a compromise regarding security and Guarantees. Like all other solutions there is no black or white. You are being too simplistic to expect an answer in black or white.

As to Ismail Veli's article, I am aware of most things he has written. I will read this one too

I do have one question though. Those that object to the agreement what is the root cause of their objection, personal or communal.

Simply put: history tells us that GC cannot be trusted!

I have no objection to the agreement provided it gives ironclad security and safety to the Turkish Cypriots - it should never be "Peace at any price" and this country (KKTC) that has fought so hard for survival should never, ever, be discarded and melded into a general RoC. Property is not the issue, restoration of property is not the issue, making millions of Euro's out of the deal is not the issue - Safety and security of the Turkish Cypriots is the only issue! The one thing that I would love to see is that any payments made to the RoC in a final settlement of any of the chapters, is made in the country of origin - in this case all settlement payments should be made in Turkish Lira and then let us see how strong the Greek conscious is and will they refuse them!!!

waddo wrote:I have no objection to the agreement provided it gives ironclad security and safety to the Turkish Cypriots - it should never be "Peace at any price" and this country (KKTC) that has fought so hard for survival should never, ever, be discarded and melded into a general RoC. Property is not the issue, restoration of property is not the issue, making millions of Euro's out of the deal is not the issue - Safety and security of the Turkish Cypriots is the only issue! The one thing that I would love to see is that any payments made to the RoC in a final settlement of any of the chapters, is made in the country of origin - in this case all settlement payments should be made in Turkish Lira and then let us see how strong the Greek conscious is and will they refuse them!!!

I am afraid 60% Turkish Cypriots disagree with you. They have voted for a BBF solution where TRNC will be disolved and the RoC will changed to include 2 Federal States. Judging by all accounts, if Akinci can get a compromise about security the deal is done. This is worth reading.

http://cyprusscene.com/2016/08/23/the-d ... ettlement/

Turkey has been trying for 50 years to destroy any trust there was between the two communities but thankfully the TCs have woken up just in the nick of time. Trust and security will return.

Security like they had in the past? now you have really blown it!

Lurucinali,

With the best will in the world, trust and security will never return if it was never there to start with - you may feel that it was there but that is a Turkish Cypriot trust and security, the Greek Cypriot trust and security is for themselves alone and has never in all history taken into account any other sort with any other people!

From where do you get the figure of 6-% of Turkish Cypriots disagreeing please? They have voted in a similar fashion to the people of the UK have voted in the Brexit - in other words the people have voice an opinion and it is not something that the Government has to put in place by law! Are you now saying that they will be no need of a referendum on the actual content of the agreement and that the Turkish Cypriot population will blindly agree to and follow, whatever agreement the KKTC Government sign up to?

You may be right that Turkey has been trying for 50 years to destroy any trust and whilst I find that to be a very cynical view have you also taken into consideration that Turkey has been keeping the KKTC alive for the same amount of time?

I honestly think that the GCs will never agree to any settlement put before them. They will always vote down any plan that isn't a return to total GC dominance. I also believe that a lot of that is due to guilt. They know deep down that the TCs were hard done by in the past, they are not stupid. They are happy to live in a state of separation and denial where they don't have to face up to the consequences of their former misdemeanours. They are content to let their politicians spout on about the terrible Turk and play victim, but if it comes to nothing (which it will) then there will be a certain sense of relief and justice I suppose. So if the status quo turns out to be the solution then deep down most GCs of a certain age will feel that it's probably the right thing. They certainly won't want to live side by side with the constant reminder of what went before. Remember, a lot of the people who carried out murders and atrcities are still alive.

DenizIsmail wrote:Simply put: history tells us that GC cannot be trusted!

when the 60% of TCs voted for Akinci, they clearly feel not only GCs can be trusted but that a deal is possible. Not long left now, theythe end of this year it will al be clarified.

waddo wrote:Lurucinali,

With the best will in the world, trust and security will never return if it was never there to start with - you may feel that it was there but that is a Turkish Cypriot trust and security, the Greek Cypriot trust and security is for themselves alone and has never in all history taken into account any other sort with any other people!

From where do you get the figure of 6-% of Turkish Cypriots disagreeing please? They have voted in a similar fashion to the people of the UK have voted in the Brexit - in other words the people have voice an opinion and it is not something that the Government has to put in place by law! Are you now saying that they will be no need of a referendum on the actual content of the agreement and that the Turkish Cypriot population will blindly agree to and follow, whatever agreement the KKTC Government sign up to?

You may be right that Turkey has been trying for 50 years to destroy any trust and whilst I find that to be a very cynical view have you also taken into consideration that Turkey has been keeping the KKTC alive for the same amount of time?

Who says it was never there in the first place. up till 55 there was no security problem at all. if anything it was the Brits worried that the leftists were getting too strong and both TCs and GCs may ask for independence. Up till 1958 GC and TCs lived in mixed villages celebrating each other festivities and even sharing bread ovens to cook bread. The mistrust was engineered by the Americans and the Brits as well as Greece and Turkey to divide the island for their own purposes so that it does not fall under Moscow control. Interesting that they only recruited poor Cypriots for this work so they could be bought. Those with any means were kept out cause they had something to lose with the troubles and would not follow. For instance some villages the TCs never left their homes at any time and they were not attacked.

60% comes from the vote Akinci got with a clear mandate to negotiate BBF. Decision to hold or not hold a referendum will be made by the UN. After all it was the UN that put it into place to by-pass Dengtash's objections and they can just as easily remove it. Even if there was a referendum the two parliaments will have to vote for it anyway. I suspect it will be decided after the agreement is reached but fefore it is announced depending on how they feel about the outcome. Who’s ever heard of a referendum to decide a peace agreement anyway, it was a crazy idea to start with. Were the Colombians asked in a referendum last week?

As to being cynical, I think we can now all agree that even animals kept in zoos is unacceptable never mind people in enclaves. TRNC is a huge enclave and has no future. Turkey is responsible because not only did she cause it but also continues to cause the embargoes. And I know all the arguments on how they came to save us sure enough, the fact that they contributed to the problem to begin with seems to be missed by most of those who oppose peace. What does it mean that a sergeant can be appointed by the Turkish Military and the swine can dictate what language you talk in the street. those caught speaking the banned language were fined. You have to have lived in the enclaves to understand what was really going on.

frontalman wrote:I honestly think that the GCs will never agree to any settlement put before them. They will always vote down any plan that isn't a return to total GC dominance. I also believe that a lot of that is due to guilt. They know deep down that the TCs were hard done by in the past, they are not stupid. They are happy to live in a state of separation and denial where they don't have to face up to the consequences of their former misdemeanours. They are content to let their politicians spout on about the terrible Turk and play victim, but if it comes to nothing (which it will) then there will be a certain sense of relief and justice I suppose. So if the status quo turns out to be the solution then deep down most GCs of a certain age will feel that it's probably the right thing. They certainly won't want to live side by side with the constant reminder of what went before. Remember, a lot of the people who carried out murders and atrcities are still alive.

Thankfully we have gone past that stage and the current GC leadership has already agreed to power sharing not only at the high level agreement but also in the current detailed negotiations. Deep down inside the GCs know that this is end of the line and if they say no to this one too, it will be over. Deep down TCs also know that if this ends they will be 88th province of Turkey and there is no apetite for that too. Not eventhe settlers will wish that. Certainly a lot of them are alive and there woll be no consequences unless they refuse to admit what they have done in which case lock them up and throw away the key. Same as what happened in South Africa and they will sing like birds.

Lurucinali wrote: ....TRNC is a huge enclave and has no future. Turkey is responsible because not only did she cause it but also continues to cause the embargoes.....

Not offering any opinions, but from the above, am I to understand that anybody and/or everybody in the world wishes to or does recognise the TRNC, but Turkey alone is preventing this....?

Then you understand wrong. Read it again.

Maybe you should write it again, and elaborate on what you mean exactly. By the way there are some really interesting articles about the Cyprus situation on the Cyprus Mail online newspaper (English language publication in the South) today.

But if Jofra did not understand what I wrote then what makes you think he will understand what I write next. The best way is perhaps to ask questions becasue only by understanding the questions can we understand the answers.

Q1. Why were embargoes implemented by the UN decades ago?
Q2. Why are they still in place afte so many decades?

Answer these two questions and perhaps you will understand my post jofra.

The GCs have rejected every peace plan put forward but Turkey is at fault????

Are you suggesting that Turkey should have pulled its troops out and left the TCs to fend for themselves?

"Q1. Why were embargoes implemented by the UN decades ago?"
- I am sure that it can be agreed that following the actions of Turkey, more members of the UN voted in favour of the proposed embargoes than voted against....
"Q2. Why are they still in place after so many decades?"
- you write,"Turkey is responsible because not only did she cause it but also continues to cause the embargoes..... "
- The UN continues the embargoes (note not 'cause') because a settlement has not yet been agreed - The Annan plan was supported by one side, but not the other; so it can be justifiably claimed that the continuation of the embargoes was/is caused by the failure to agree - on whose part?

jofra what actions by Turkey Jofra?

what is it that Turkey did which caused the embargoes to be implemented.

Who voted for them is of no consequence.

Lurucinali you said trust between the two communities, we to my belief there has never been any real trust, as the reality is the Greeks have an inbread hatred for any thing Turkish.

"jofra what actions by Turkey Jofra?
what is it that Turkey did which caused the embargoes to be implemented."
Sometime, somewhere, in some strange and distant world, I dreamed that I heard charges that Turkey had instigated and implemented the use of armed forces in Cyprus, and that other nations had objected and intervened, subsequently condemning these actions and proposing sanctions against these actions, resulting in UN resolutions relating to Cyprus....
When you wrote "...Turkey is responsible because not only did she cause it but also continues to cause the embargoes....", I (wrongfully?) assumed your words confirmed my imaginings..... Or did Turkey NOT initiate such actions?

".....Who voted for them is of no consequence....."
So true - but again in that strange and distant world, I thought that it is decided by HOW MANY - not who - that produces the end result.....

Interesting to see what will happen regarding UK being a guarantor in the future. If the Scots obtain independence with the Welsh putting their toes in the water to see if they like it, plus Northern Ireland objecting loudly to Brexit, it really doesn't leave much of a UK does it.?

jofra wrote:"jofra what actions by Turkey Jofra?
what is it that Turkey did which caused the embargoes to be implemented."
Sometime, somewhere, in some strange and distant world, I dreamed that I heard charges that Turkey had instigated and implemented the use of armed forces in Cyprus, and that other nations had objected and intervened, subsequently condemning these actions and proposing sanctions against these actions, resulting in UN resolutions relating to Cyprus....
When you wrote "...Turkey is responsible because not only did she cause it but also continues to cause the embargoes....", I (wrongfully?) assumed your words confirmed my imaginings..... Or did Turkey NOT initiate such actions?

".....Who voted for them is of no consequence....."
So true - but again in that strange and distant world, I thought that it is decided by HOW MANY - not who - that produces the end result.....

so you think the embargoes were applied because Turkey used her armed forces to in Cyprus. How do you expalin the fact that they were not implemented till 1983.

I guess that was the year The TRNC was declared by The Honourable Rauf Raif bless his soul.

Why embargoes? Blame the UN the ECJ and your soon to be trusted friends in the South! The RoC has done nothing in the past to assist the Turkish Cypriots and yet you still expect a peace solution that will make everybody happy, friendly and peaceful for the future - where is the proof that this would ever be allowed by the Greek Cypriots?

Oh yes, why was it not implemented till 1983 - read on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embargo_a ... ern_Cyprus and please do not miss the bit that identifies the help that Turkey tried to give to the TRNC.

waddo wrote:Why embargoes? Blame the UN the ECJ and your soon to be trusted friends in the South! The RoC has done nothing in the past to assist the Turkish Cypriots and yet you still expect a peace solution that will make everybody happy, friendly and peaceful for the future - where is the proof that this would ever be allowed by the Greek Cypriots?

Oh yes, why was it not implemented till 1983 - read on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embargo_a ... ern_Cyprus and please do not miss the bit that identifies the help that Turkey tried to give to the TRNC.

anyone reading your comment would say you just arrived from Mars. Since 1963, we have not had two leaders that actually wanted peace in Cyprus except for now. We actually have two leaders who are genuine and want peace. The embargoes were applied because Dengtash declared UDI because Turkey supported him to the hilt. Dengtash could not do such a thing without Turkis permission. TC leadership have been under the control of Turkey since 1964 to this day.

Of course the RoC did not do anything to help the TCs, they had one third of their population thrown off their land by the Turkish Army. If a country did that to your country would you offer them help?

Peace is not easy, it reqires compromise from both sides. At least we now have two such leaders who are prepared to compromise. We are now weeks away from a major announcement which is why Serdar bey decided he would like to be at the negotiations. So would I but I am afraid only one person can do that and thats the President.

Not long to go, we will all soon see what happens. All TC's and GC's that I have spoken with recently feel that the talks will fall apart before the year ends.
Hope not.
I once heard that "Miracles do happen....". In this case, time will soon tell.
Either way, I cannot for the life of me see Turkey letting go and not remaining as Guarantor.