Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

Sacred Cows

I am becoming increasingly concerned by the worship of sacred cows on on this forum………

The appearance of these beasts varies; in some cases these animals may be companies or formal organisations with set charges but mostly they are Charities run by volunteers. Most , but not all, are part of the UK “Establishment”.

What they all have in common are :

A. They take money from the public, whether by way of fees, charges or voluntary contributions in return for some form of service, direct or by proxy

B. They appear to be unable understand the meaning of the words “responsibility “ or “duty of care” nor the concept of accountability for public money. They have taken a vow never to divulge how they operate or spend the money. They believe that being “volunteers” or being faced with circumstances that are beyond their control absolves them from all blame or the need to mitigate the effects of failure to honour their promises. Not even to warn those who might suffer damage or distress as a result of the failure to perform, nor to explain to those who hard earned money or savings have been not been used as intended..
C . Whilst most of them are very anxious to advertise and to enhance their egos by promoting their individual contributions to whatever cause , they have an aversion to give an honest explanation in any form ofmedia if things go wrong
D. They are protected by a Praetorian Guard, most of whom seem to be contributors to Kibcom, who are alert to any hint of someone expressing a problem or querying something, let alone the ultimate sin of justified criticism.

Failure to treat these rarified creatures with appropriate respect and to dare to query their actions (or lack thereof) or request information will lead to the verbal equivalent of being put in the stocks with aggressive and provocative texts and personal insults being hurled at the victim. I suspect the punishment for downright criticism will be at best something with boiling oil in it!
They are also protected from approaches from their clients or contributors by their communications sytems If a company it is simple – an answering system which only benefits the telephone company by causing the caller to hang on for hours whilst listening to jangly music as he or she presses various buttons and is transferred bilingually from pillar to post for hours. For volunteers it is a lovely test of initiative: callers are made to feel guilty by the very fact of phoning of necessity on a privae number, a volunteer who is always angry at being interrupted in the middle of making or eating a meal, having a bath (at the oddest times) or entertaining unexpected visitors. As an ultimate deterrent they frequently go on holiday to exotic locations, leaving the caller with an unintended and unexpected expensive overseas phone bill.. Rather clevered is the reverse and to ramble on apparently helpfully on an unrelated topic while giving no information at all, and running up the callers bill! It would take too long to add the list of excuses for not answering emails or pms but the number that go astray is amazing!
Despite this the Preatorian Guard have a select bunch of operative who are primed with a prercorded criticism of those who try to put their problems on Kibcom and bring them to a wider audience or even just to warn the vulnerable where a failure in service might cause danger or distress. These specialist operatives are experts at adding insult to injury by insisting that sufferers should add to their losses and problems by submitting themselves to the foregoing regardless of the circumstances or the problems of the sufferer. I believe they are especially provided with blinkers and a suit of body armour..

The sad outcome of the auto-defensive reactions of the Preatorian guard is that their protests actually arouse suspicision where none previous existed and he unfortunate victim was only being helpful in pointing out an omission or warning others of a pitfall

But there is even worse: in most cases the “volunteers” and staff in these organisation if somewhat blinkered and ill advised are mostly well intentioned and indeed there are many exceptions who work hard and selflessly without self-advertisement out of kind hearts and or commitment to their cause.

Sadly there are also some people around who are not so well intentioned and intentionally defraud the vulnerable. The very unfortunate result of the aggressive automatic reaction of the Praetorian Guard and their lack of accountability means that posters are frightened to report the “Bad Eggs” and warn others of their tricks and they are therefore free to continue to prey on our society.

I am usually quite interested in reading your posts but this......... What is the point, you have down loaded a document & copied it.....

As Cally has said, it's somewhat puzzling that your post is merely a duplicate of the attachment, however...
I understand - and totally agree - with your comments.
A few years ago I had a long battle with an large energy-supplier who (by failing to abide by their advertised tariffs) were fraudulently overcharging me (and other customers). After threats of legal action, they did eventually reimburse me by an "ex-gratia payment" without admitting fault or liability - they have subsequently been heavily fined for overcharging.
Also, just a few hours ago I received an email from my local council planning department stating that unfortunately they could not (actually, are not willing to !) take action against a large company that has destroyed my and my neighbours' residential environment, peace and overall "quality of life"(!).
This - together with the same problems with a previous multi-national company on the same site - has been an ongoing battle for over forty years(!). There is an abundance of evidence that demonstrates incompetence, negligence - and in some instances, suggests corruption - on the part of both planning department employees (past and present), and elected councillors who are or have been members of the Planning Committee over all these years. Certain Planning Department officials have allegedly left "by mutual consent" - and what exactly does that mean? - but they have apparently gained improved employment or even created their own companies...
In my case, only paragraph D does not really apply, as all of the foregoing relates to my home in the UK and I doubt Kibcom contributors will know or care of my problems - but nevertheless, your comments and concerns undoubtedly apply worldwide!

Confused of Catalkoy - and your point is?

Point B sounds familiar with the post about Green Hill Cemetery !!

Woodspeckie: You got it! I was very upset about the insistence of some posters that the problems of Green Hills be directed at the Committee, whereas the intention was in fact to bring them to a wider audience because the Committee had failed to warn people that the condition of the Cemetery was distressing and the access possible dangerous by motor vehicle. I was also fed up with those who rushed to the support of the Committee I and seemed to think they could do no wrong just because they were volunteers and if anyone else suffered it was just too bad. However also felt that the Green Hills thread had already caused enough distress to which I did not want to add, so decided to start a new thread. Thinking about it I realised how often some posters would jump in on any thread that criticised certain organisations. In an attempt to avoid some of the unpleasant personal attacks that haunt this board I tried to make it humorous - obviously I failed and I apologise! I was also trying to make a point about "duty of care" which is a legal concept based on my past experience and is perhaps unsuitable for this forum. If anyone is interested please pm me.

Joffra: Although my intent was specific with regard to Northern Cyprus expat community and this board (and I was really "getting at" to put it crudely those who think they are so superior their views override others), you are right that parts could well apply internationally. Actually I think most UK residents are interested in UK issues because, as well as family and friends, most have property, investments, pensions and bank acccounts. YOur problems rang a bell with me because after my bank (one of the UK "big five") had made a stupid mistake which cost a lot of money and time and potentially more , they eventually refunded and offered compensation but it was in full and final settlement Please check with a qualified lawyer as I am not and my legal knowledge and experience is somewhat out of date but this reservation is frequent and in my view anattempt to deprive the customer of common law rights It might be overturned by an Ombudsman or Court but who wants to risk adding to their losses by taking this route? Howver I am taking my own threa ot - again please PM if interested. It really does seem these days that "the customer is always wrong"!

As for the attachment I apologise for confusing and misleading. What happened that I have so often "lost" lengthy posts in the system , and so often seen complaints about this happening met by the Praetorian Guard saying it was our fault for not prepared a lengthy post in "Word" so I did jus tthat!
Then an attempt to cut and paste it to Kibkom failed, I tried to do it by transferring a document, with the result you see. I really find it very difficult to understand this forum and just wish they could explain procedures in simple English! No doubt this will againbring the wrath ofthe Praetorian Guard on my head - I suspect they are now haunting me!

Well that’s as clear as mud

Having spent (wasted) the last 10 minutes of my life following this thread it does occur to me that maybe the OP could request the addition of some quiet corner be created in this Forum, a sort of Monasterial area of contemplation where the Praetorian Guard would not enter. A place where the OP and like minded persons can gather and cogitate in peace.

tt.

tingtang: I see you are new to this forum, so perhaps you did not realise that reading all the posts is not obligatory and no one insists that you" waste" your time reading posts you dont understand, even if the poster did spend far longer writing it and their time is valuable too. I find I dont undersstand a quarter of the posts here, and I am not even interested in most of them, so I just skip them. Unless you have spent several months reading all the posts , you may well not understand the point I am trying to make. However I will try again and for the last time, since my time , too is valuable.

There are several organisations - most of them British run Charties, which appear to be especially beloved of some members of the forum (whom I jocularly described as the "Praetorian Guard" (because I could not think of anything else that would be within the rules of the forum), Whenever a post complains of one of what I call "Sacred cows" or has problems with them, the PG rushes to their defence and insists that the poster should have contacted them direct: as I tried to explain this is often easier said than done. I think that claiming that an organisation is immune to criticism or complaint because its personnel are volunteers is unwise: everyone has a duty of care to others and anyone who handles public money must accept that they take on a responsibility to the doners or customers - I know because I have worked as a volunteer myself, and also have some legal background. I also think the sometimes rather offensive attitude of the Praetorian Guard puts people off reporting really serious losses as a result of fraudulent action by others (who I tried to stress are ill-intentioned unlike the sacred cows who mean well) and this undermines the purpose of the Board.

I hope this helps you and others. I really cannot keep on at this, I am not used to expressing my feelings in four letter words and I am also trying hard to avoid accusations of breaching the rules of the forum , If you dont understand sacred cows or Preatorian Guard I think you will find Wilki will help. Anything else please be specific about what you dont understand

As for a "monastical area of contemplation" that would be nice but the whole object is to be up front and draw attention tot he problems some of us suffer in real life. However a board that did not resemble "Exchange and Mart"" rather than a place for intelligent discussion would be welcome.

[quote="Ragged Robin"]tingtang:
There are several organisations - most of them British run Charties, which appear to be especially beloved of some members of the forum (whom I jocularly described as the "Praetorian Guard" (because I could not think of anything else that would be within the rules of the forum), Whenever a post complains of one of what I call "Sacred cows" or has problems with them, the PG rushes to their defence and insists that the poster should have contacted them direct: as I tried to explain this is often easier said than done. I think that claiming that an organisation is immune to criticism or complaint because its personnel are volunteers is unwise: everyone has a duty of care to others and anyone who handles public money must accept that they take on a responsibility to the doners or customers - I know because I have worked as a volunteer myself, and also have some legal background. I also think the sometimes rather offensive attitude of the Praetorian Guard puts people off reporting really serious losses as a result of fraudulent action by others (who I tried to stress are ill-intentioned unlike the sacred cows who mean well) and this undermines the purpose of the Board. quote]

Such a shame the legal people don't do this either, it would be a perfect world. there is always a fine line
Even though I do comment on KAR and the Cemetery posts I would not think I'm a member of the PG as I do not know what conditions organizations have to operate under or even know where to start. Referring to the recent post I could see what damage rain had done to customer's gardens and very thankful a post was not created that I had not anticipated the amount of rainfall and not stayed to dig trenches around their properties to divert the water. Yes it was a good idea to inform but unfortunately they were upset and criticism was mentioned as it was personal to them.
In life I have always thought if it bothers me that much, to get involved and change or understand the things that bother me. Looking at the years service the people who run these organizations nobody seems to challenge them therefore I am grateful somebody cares to support these organizations so when I need them something at least will be in place even though not as perfect as one may want..

However a board that did not resemble "Exchange and Mart"" rather than a place for intelligent discussion would be welcome.
Ragged Robin.

Which is precisely what I suggested.

tingtang: I see you are new to this forum,

Indeed i am, and,,as a newcomer reading your post was made to feel uncomfortable about the appropriateness of the innuendos of issues you allude to.

I am also trying hard to avoid accusations of breaching the rules of the forum

Were I a Moderator I would certainly be nervous about what may come next. I presume there is no Trump size financial backer to fund litigation.

I will freely admit I know nothing about Charity law and obligations in this country. Your campaign may well be justifiable. If the Organisations you are targeting have accountability then those are the avenues you should be addressing. If, OTOH, they do not have accountability then form your own action group. By all means you can then make readers of this and other boards aware of your presence who can elect to join you but this Forum really is not the place for your Agenda.

All the best.

tt.

The "Exchange and Mart" part of the forum is what is funding the costs of running the Kibkom forum. So, without it, the forum would not exist, unless members preferred to pay a membership fee???

My web business was funding the forum for the first three years ( which has now ceased trading ), and all monies earned through advertisers on the forum had been donated to TRNC charities. Now that it seems light can be seen at the end of the tunnel, Kibkom will, this year for the first time, manage to stand on it's own two feet, thanks to the support of these companies advertising on the forum and members choosing to use Kibkom making it what it is today. My intentions are to continue to support charities in the TRNC by donating to these good causes.

RR, the protection put in place for this forum, against hackers, causes any lengthy massages/posts to timeout, hence, sometimes being lost. The only way to overcome this is to ensure that you copy your long post before submitting, then pasting it back into the empty message field box after submitting and before resubmitting. If you need any help with this then just let me know and I will be happy to come over next time in TRNC to show you.

You could alternatively write long posts in Word or Notepad, then copy and paste into the Kibkom Message field box and then submit.

Soner: Thank you for your response.

1. I did explain in my second post that I had drafted the post in "Word" and then attempted to "cut and paste" it onto the forum. I do know the procedure and have done it several times , although more often to emails. However on this occasion the post simply would not paste and aften three attempts it was past my bedtime and I was tired and stressed ! Desperate I therefore tried to transfer the post by attaching the document, but overlooked that in checking that that it worked I had left the attachment: which seems to have confused some people. Having said that, your explanation that the short "time out" is to deter hackers doesnt coincide with an explanation on another thread that it is a quirk of the system. Either way I have to say I think it a shame - it ruins spontaneity; it wastes time of posters which is really rather condescending, and it puts them under pressure which means that their syntax suffers and their posts are more aggressive than if they had time to think out and express their feelings.

2. I was of course aware that advertising partly funded the forum : with respect it is all too obvious! And oddly quite a few of the sacred cows that are so staunchly defended happen to be advertisers! However as I understand it Forums need active discussion threads to attract people to the forum and therefore see the adverts!???? It seems to me that under the "View Active Topics" heading I have to wade through an awful lot of stuff selling and wanting things that I have never heard of let alone could afford to find any subjects that interst me - and also that these items are left for longer when less renumerative posts are whipped off before everyone has a chance to read them and that Admin and Mods are at pains to discourage discussion and encourage "Exchange and M is kind enough of you to offer to show me how things work: whilst I do know how to "cut and paste" there are aspects of the forum I do have difficulty with - the permitted length for one thing (I took a paragaph out o f the post in quesiton to be on the safe side which might actually have added to the confusion). Please do contact me on your return.

I have obviously failed dismally to make my point in this thread: it has happened before and no doubt will happen again. However it is attracting pointless aggression and concern and I should be grateful if you could now close it.

This topic is now locked