Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

I have been somewhat disconcerted by a couple of posts on here, recently not to mention more serious distress at some global situations,. It got me thinking about the meaning of the word "Charity" , so I looked it up and found the following interesting quotes: Please this is a thread to stimuate serious thought , possiblyt even discusson. There is no need for the Preatorian Guard to sharpen its swords , and I hope noone will use it "to have a dig" at me, or indeed each other.

Charity

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things
So when you give to the needy, do not sound trumpets before you as the hypocrites do… . to be praised by men… do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

(Quotes from the Holy Bible)

Charity in secret quiets the Wrath of God and takes away one’s sin.

Whatever good you do, verilyGod has full knowledge thereof.

(Quotes from the Holy Kur’an)

Let us not be satisfied with just giving money. Money is not enough, money can be got, but they need your hearts to love them. So, spread your love everywhere you go.
Mother Teresa

A bone to the dog is not charity. Charity is the bone shared with the dog, when you are just as hungry as the dog.
Jack London

Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient to become independent of it.
John. D. Rockefeller

Charity covers a multitude of sins
Oscar Wilde

The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions
Anon

No good deed goes unpunished
Anon

Sorry...I'm really struggling to understand the purpose of this post .

Art wrote:Sorry...I'm really struggling to understand the purpose of this post .

Art - struggle no more and go into the other bar and leave the discussion in the snug to those who can enjoy talk that, at first, seems to have no end in mind other than a philosophical one....

I for one am with JD Rockerfeller... Charitable organisations that only perpetuate their own raison d'être are only sticking plasters on a wound that needs surgery... Give a man a fish.... but teach a man to fish etc. being the oft quoted maxim... Hopefully such organisations are looking to their operations with a view to longer-term results.

Individual charitable acts are not so easily turned into solutions.

Thank you Groucho.

I agree there is a lot in the Rockefeller quote. I think some people are learning that if a Third World Village is starving rather than give them bread, milk and honey, they should be given seed, goats and bees. But of course you need to feed them until the crops have grown and the villagers have learned how to milk the goats and not get stung by the bees! Also there are some conditions (eg terminal illness or very serious disablement) where sadly it cannot apply, but as a general rule i would agree that " charity" is best when it enables the recipient to help himself or even better to help each other. I am shocked when "charity" excludes other disavantaged groups or places obstacles in their way of helping others even less fortunate. I have been trying for years to persuade organisers of chartiable functions here to consider access for the disabled when booking venues or at least to warn what the situation for disabled access is , but no one wants to know. I have even offered to arrange transport myself for those with mobiltiy problems in places where parking is particularly difficult,

The quote from Oscar Wilde is interesting if perhaps a bit misleading - is is in fact part of a much longer piece of writing - far too long to quote here but you can look it up on Wikipedia . By my understanding he is particulary critical of people who make donation to "worthy causes" to salve their consciences and bribe the Almighty to forget their sins. It reminded me of the Wool Churches of East Anglia when those who had made fotunes out wool grown on sheep that grazed pastures that once provided ordinary people with a living build magnificent Churches to the" glory of God "but too many and too large for small congregations in the hope of buying their way to heaven!

"I am shocked when "charity" excludes other disavantaged groups or places obstacles in their way of helping others even less fortunate. I have been trying for years to persuade organisers of chartiable functions here to consider access for the disabled when booking venues or at least to warn what the situation for disabled access is , but no one wants to know."

In my opinion the charities here do a fantastic job, they get very little, if any, help from the local authorities and have to jump through hoops at times to achieve their goals. To expect them to consider/provide facilities for the disabled is to my mind quite ridiculous, they have neither the time nor the resources for that and at the end of the day each individual must choose whether or not to attend a fund raiser.

Sadly over here there is no thought given to access etc for disabled or people with restricted mobility, it has always been like that and I would imagine will be so for a long time to come, but that is down to the Government/Belediyese and also to the owners of restaurants etc, most certainly not the charities. Sometimes something as simple as a handrail would make all the difference but who should provide them, the business involved or the charities, I know who my money is on.

We all came here knowing what we were letting ourselves in for so it really is a case of put up with it or do something about it. Something my old dad used to say springs to mind when I hear these sort of complaints, " I knew men in the war who'd had their heads blown off who complained less than you.

elizabeth wrote:In my opinion the charities here do a fantastic job, they get very little, if any, help from the local authorities and have to jump through hoops at times to achieve their goals. To expect them to consider/provide facilities for the disabled is to my mind quite ridiculous, they have neither the time nor the resources for that and at the end of the day each individual must choose whether or not to attend a fund raiser.

Sadly over here there is no thought given to access etc for disabled or people with restricted mobility, it has always been like that and I would imagine will be so for a long time to come, but that is down to the Government/Belediyese and also to the owners of restaurants etc, most certainly not the charities. Sometimes something as simple as a handrail would make all the difference but who should provide them, the business involved or the charities, I know who my money is on.

We all came here knowing what we were letting ourselves in for so it really is a case of put up with it or do something about it. Something my old dad used to say springs to mind when I hear these sort of complaints, " I knew men in the war who'd had their heads blown off who complained less than you.

I asked that this thread be reserved for serious discussion , not for the Praetorian Guard to unrail it and vent their spleen in defence of sacred cows! However , perhaps I should be grateful as you have saved me defining "Charity" as you have just shown what it isn't!

I did explain that I had offered to help some Charities with transport for disabled - it would have got them more support, helped the disabled and ade the roads safer , as it was also available to those who might just have wanted a drink or two! My experience and that of others is that most Charities are very cliquish and do not actually welcome offers of assistance - one has to suspect that they are afraid of others grabbing the limelight.

I did myself work for a local Charity for several years - I dont mention it usually because I amnot looking for Kudos. One of our problems was that we had difficulty getting British support because the cients were not attractive - a fluffy kitten is much more photogenic than a distorted old woman! The other problem was that t Brits (and I admit that included me)) had insufficient knowledge of Turkish to integrate properly.

You cannot even be consistent in your attacks - on the one hand you blame the authorites for lack of attention to the needs of the disabled, or the other you suggest that people should not come here if they are likely to become sick , disabled, or, presumably old, Do you not even have the compassion to realise that people who came here long before you have encountered various misfortunes they could not have anticipated. The fact is that social and medical care is lacking here, partly because the Cypriots are more caring as individuals and it is not in theirculture. That is all the more reason why we should set a good example. I did not say tht Charities should provide faciliities , but surely they must inspect the premises of locations and coul suggest to the owners that they would get more chance of what after all is excellent publicity for them if they improved the disabled facilities. At the VERY lease they could show enough care of others to warn if it is unsuitable for disabled. The fact that they apparently dont cannnot but give rise to speculation as to why and whether such offensive posts as yours arise from guilty consciences.

Your suggestions that "it is up to everyone to decide whether to attend a fundraiser" and "put up with it" are not only offensive but discriminatory, and would be illlegal in the Uk. You passing all the blame to the local administration is typical of "Whinging Brits" and what makes us unpopular,and ironic in the face of you assertion that disabled people should not come here. Do you have the slightest idea how depressing it is to be treated as a second class citizen and left out of thing just because you have (often) a minor disablity? As for "do something about it" that is just what I am trying to do in the only way I now can, by raising peoples' awarenesss of problem, but I get very despondent when faced by attitudes like yours.

However that is not what I started this thread for . Can we now please get back on topic what actually IS charity?


I

[quote][/quote] My experience and that of others is that most Charities are very cliquish and do not actually welcome offers of assistance - one has to suspect that they are afraid of others grabbing the limelight.

I hope you did expect someone not to challenge you on this comment!!!

How rude. There are a lot of expats who work tirelessly for charities here and put a lot of effort into making life easier for those less fortunate than themselves.
They are not forced to do it and some that I know will feel totally demoralised by your comments.

Maybe you should think before you hit the submit button.

My working life was spent caring for people with profound learning disabilities, many who also had physical impairment too, so I really don't need to be told of the difficulties they face. My point was that we each have a choice as to whether we wish to attend a venue or not, whether that be a fundraising event or any other, and that the charities, which you seem to have a low opinion of, have to prioritise their time and resources in order to raise as much in funds as possible.

I fail to see how you can call my comments offensive and discriminatory, and as for them being illegal in the UK, well we're not in the UK, also I have not said that people shouldn't come here if they are old, infirm or disabled, I said we all have a choice and when able we should all take responsibility for ourselves.

You seem to have twisted most of what I said to suit your own agenda and I find most of your comments offensive, particularly the one about a fluffy kitten or a distorted old woman, that is disgusting.
If you don't wish to listen to other peoples opinions on the forum perhaps you would be better served employing your energies in contacting the people in power who's responsibility it is to provide the required facilities.

 "the Praetorian Guard to unrail it and vent their spleen in defence of sacred cows"
With your response to elizabeth's post have you not added disability to the sacred cow list and become a member of the Praetorian Guard ?

Interesting that four days elapsed between the original post and then two responses, with only the second evincing a fairly neutral and peaceable comment - which may have been sufficient after four days..... A more "directed" continuance on the original post's subject then appeared, which has now resulted in somewhat heated and emotive replies.
I wonder just where the boundary between "stimulating a debate" and "provoking arguments" might be drawn.....?

jofra wrote:Interesting that four days elapsed between the original post and then two responses, with only the second evincing a fairly neutral and peaceable comment - which may have been sufficient after four days..... A more "directed" continuance on the original post's subject then appeared, which has now resulted in somewhat heated and emotive replies.
I wonder just where the boundary between "stimulating a debate" and "provoking arguments" might be drawn.....?

Very good comment Jofra.

In response to puppy lover, no I did not expect the response I got. I expected (or perhaps hoped is nearer the mark) that people would read all I was saying and take in in context, particularly as I have not even got to the conclusion yet! I think I had the right to expect that people would respect my right to my own views, and if they held different ones to express them politely and in a civilised fashion. Silly me! Obviously an intelligent discussion is too much to hope for here! I reallybeing to wonder how many are actually capable of one, I think I owe the real historical Praetorian Guard an apology - this is more like a pack of hyenas snapping at the heels of a wounded antelope.

Clearly this thread is causing concern and is going downhill.

Some comments are clearly a subtle attack on individuals or organisations.

Following a report this thread is now locked.

I have unlocked this thread to allow further discussion on the topic "Charity" due to complaints that moderators were being biased and unfair to some members that have so far contributed to the discussion. A complaint had been raised by a member (which in all fairness, moderators will keep confidential; no one would want to file a complaint if it were to be made public, opening the door for some to grasp the opportunity to start attacking that person). So, any member that reports that a thread is going downhill or a member or establishment is being attacked, will always remain anonymous. Everybody's contribution to the forum is valued, however, there will always be times when some members will disagree with the views of others, we are all different and may have strong views on certain subjects, do your best to be diplomatic in your response so that the thread may continue its course. If a thread does start going on a downward spiral, then, all we ask is that you please respect the forum rules and the decisions of the moderators, as you will not get answers as to why the thread was closed nor whether there were any complaints filed.

Apologies for any delays in responding to member's PM's to me with regards to this thread, I had been busy preparing for my travel to TRNC, then arriving to only find out that my laptop over there would not work, and then on return to the UK to find out my computer had crashed. Would you Adam and Eve it??? Talk about bad luck - it follows me everywhere. Yes, I could have used my mobile phone to respond but I am not one for dealing with long winded complaints using a small device, and thought that the issue was not so serious that it could not wait for a delayed response. Maybe I was wrong...

The Kibkom Forum has been going for just over four years, with now just over six thousand members. It does have it's ups and downs, and has been a real struggle for me to keep it going in the past, but things are improving and I have now completely closed down my web business to concentrate more of my time to the forum. Many members have used this forum to sell goods, cars, properties etc. and although I have asked them to contribute to the running of the forum in the past, a very very few have done so; however small the contribution it has been appreciated. I simply find it extremely annoying that some sellers have been cashing in thousands of pounds on the back of the forum yet happily not contributing a single penny. Now that the ads being sold help support the continuation of running the forum, I still feel that sellers can contribute something which Kibkom can give to charity once the funds have accumulated.

Back to the topic of Charity:
I fully agree with what members have posted with regards to charity. Giving to charity is in my opinion one of the most "feel good factor" things that one can do. Some may have the spare time to give to help those that are in need, others may prefer to contribute money that may help the cause of a charity. I agree with the following statement: "If a Third World Village is starving rather than give them bread, milk and honey, they should be given seed, goats and bees." - Money can purchase the bread, but also the seeds. You can teach a man to fish, but you can also purchase the equipment for fishing.
There is no right or wrong. Help is help, whether it is ones time or ones money - it simply needs to be used appropriately.

With regards to disabled access for the disabled in the TRNC. Yes, this still needs to be addressed, but it is being done slowly, just as it had and still is taking a long time in the UK. New builds like the Airport Mall for instance is a place that takes the disabled into consideration. Just like the UK, there are places that can fully accommodate the disabled and there are many places/shops that do not. It will take a long time for things to improve both in the UK and the TRNC. I do believe many business owners and the government officials are aware of the problems faced by the disabled. Everything improves with time - sometimes it just may not be in the time we are here on this Earth, but at least it is being addressed for future generations.

One last thing about the forum and "Cyber Bullying". Moderators are here to intervene with any posts made that may hurt or harm any member. We may not be online and may not have read every thread, but we can be contacted by email or PM and action will be taken to deal with any issues. We do respect members contributions and hope that they continue for years to come. One should never feel threatened using this forum, many members do wish to remain anonymous just in case they are in disagreement with other members - which is fine, however, should you seriously feel uncomfortable using this forum, then please remember that you can simply switch off.

Have a nice day and be happy!

Well said that man!
BBB's other half - VOLUNTEER for a local CHARITY.

At a dinner party I've always advocated the No Politics or Religion to be discussed. I suspect "charity" just might be added if this forum is an indication of how heated it can become!!

Thank you Soner for reinstating the thread and even more for your thoughtful and thought provoking views on the suject... I dont entirely agree with them all, but I respect you views and will comment later.

It is my turn to ask for a little leeway : this backlash from this thread left me suffering from depression and together with the atmosphereric conditions damaged my fragile health. I need a little time to deal with some delayed personal and domestic matters before I can concentrate on trying to express my views in a way that will not provoke another witchhunt! Also I there is another thread on a related topic and I think it would be better not to risk getting them entangled.

The issue of Cyber bullying definitely needs tackling, but would be best done on another thread.

I am not sure about Disablement - it deserves a thread of its own, but I raised it to demonstrate the importance of helping people to help themselves or indeed in this case others, and it is still relevant.

I am trying to restrain myself very hard not to respond sarcastically to the last two posts, However, sorrry Sophie, but I cannot resist pointiing out that i dont invite people to Dinner parties who are not capable of holding a civilized argument on any subject, nor who cannot accept that others may not share their rules and might insult their hosts or fellow guests!

Unfortunately one cannot do the same with poster on a forum!

RR, I think that you may have misconstrued one of the previous two posts - my interpretation is that BBB's 'other half' was stating that she IS a volunteer for a charity, it was not an injunction instructing people to volunteer for a charity...

I commented earlier, "....I wonder just where the boundary between "stimulating a debate" and "provoking arguments" might be drawn.....? "
- I suspect that this was not really picked up on, as my intention was to gently hint how arguments, diatribes and "rants" could be - and are - triggered.
Sadly, perhaps it might be necessary to highlight how 'mere' differences in opinion can descend to emotive phrases such as "cyber-bullying" and "witch-hunt"...

Keith that is what I meant and what I do.
I am a Volunteer - BBB's other half.

Slightly at a tangent to the discussion so far but related to 'charity' and 'paid employees of charities'.

The public (meaning exactly the opposite) school I went to - Bedford School, is run as a 'charity'. Every single one of the people that run and operate this 'charity', from the Headmaster, to the Bursar, to the admin staff, to the teachers, to the grounds people and gardeners and cleaning staff are paid employees of this 'charity'. Not only are the fees charged by this 'charity' (from around £18,000 to £30,000 per child per year) free of any VAT, donations made to this 'charity' (in 2016 in the region of £1.5 million) when from a UK taxpayer (or indeed a US or Canadian tax payer) will then accrue an addition 25 pence from the government for every pound donated. Which all goes to help pay for facilities that state schools can only dream of. Who does this 'charity' benefit, year in and year out ? Sure there are a minuscule number of scholarships and bursaries that allow the school to cream off the most talented of pupils from those families who can not afford the (VAT free) School fees but such pupils would represent less than 1% of the entire pupil body, I would hazard a guess. So this is a 'charity' that basically is for children of families who can afford to pay around £18,000-£30,000 per child per year and not for those who can not afford such, though such less well of families effectively 'pay' towards it when the government gives 25p in the pound of their (your, our) taxes to the school against donations made to this 'charity'.

Something to think about perhaps in the context of 'Charity' ?

And while I am on this rant and to go off topic even more, the next time you come across a Daily Mail article like this one or this one and start to feel rightgeous anger, perhaps consider the following.

My School, Bedford School, and the others run by the same 'charity', the Harpur Trust, was and is an overtly religious school (see our lovely private school chapel on our private grounds here for example) that does not separate Boys from Girls, from the age of 9, but does so from their entire education from the age of 5 through to 18, with entirely seperate schools for boy and for girls. As for 'religious indoctrination', I was required to study RE - religious education at school, even securing an O level in it. You might think that 'Religious Education' would involve some sort of comparative look at the different Religions around the world. Well maybe things have changed now but back in my day at this school you would be mistaken in thinking this. RE consisted of study of only Christianity and nothing else. We did not once in RE lessons consider, talk about or look at any other religion - though of course that did not stop me being able to get my RE 'O' level. Are you feeling the same 'righteous anger' at this as you may have the Daily Mail articles cited above (and countless others like them) ?

Erol; Thank you for so perfectly illustrating the point I was desperately (and totally unsuccessfully) trying to make: the word "Charity" has acquired so many different meaning and interpretations since its original scripture meaning, that we really need to think about what it is, and probably find new words to talk about support for worthy causes.

As for your school, I am in two minds: I have an instinctive aversion to anything that suggests enforced "charity" or even blackmail for Charity. On the other hand, I support anything that goes to improving the appalling standard of British education for all ethnic origins.

Like you I had no choice but to study RI at school, and I also got an O level for it and studied for A levels. Again it covered Christianity only. I was perhaps lucky in that we had a particularly inspired and inspiring History teacher who "sneaked" a certain amount of comparative religion, among other useful discussion into her syllabus! On the way life brought me into contact and a little understanding of Judaism and Islam.IIt was when I worked closely with a remarkable Indian who was a Bhudist that it really came home to me how restricted my education had been.

I have mixed feelings about mixed schools, religion apart. I went to a Girls Only Grammar School (in the good old days when such things existed)
and although there were advantages, I have always been aware of the disadvantages in life skills that it placed on only children particularly.

look on Google for "Buddhism religion or philosophy"...... interesting.....