Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

For those interested in debate, the UK Parliament discusses Turkey . David Lammy, Labour for Tottenham. makes a strong speech.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... lSituation

I laugh when he says the Netherlands are behaving like dictator here is a man who has culled the army, locked up judges and judisary and has more journalists in prison than any country. If those demonstrating go and live under him. They would not be likely to behave this this in Turkey.

Dalartokat wrote: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... lSituation

Just two extracts -
"For context, Turkey is .... a guarantor power in Cyprus....."
- someone notes/accepts/recognises this point (!), and (at the end) -
"Resolved,
That this House has considered human rights and the political situation in Turkey."

...so that's all sorted then......

in addition to the bbc article:
Separately, Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said Turkey had "destroyed the basis for further progress in co-operation".

you have to know that approx 4 weeks ago, turkish officials have been in germany to ask (Schaeuble) for "financial support" to Turkey.
Schaeuble said in this interview that as long the "Deniz Yücel case" (the german-turkish journalistwho was arrested a week after the consultations) is not solved, there is no basis for co-operation = no money.
a day earlier the EU stopped (nearly) all payments to Turkey as well.

many people see turkey diving into deep trouble, no matter what the outcome of the 16th of april referendum will be.

Anyone criticizing or challenging Erdogan’s leadership is at risk of imprisonment. Public figures, journalists, academics, intellectuals, and human rights activists have all sadly been victims of what can only be described as a purge. Even young children are on charges ranging from insulting the president to terrorism, espionage and treason.

He has purged or imprisoned over 100,000 regime critics – from the judiciary, military, police, media and academia. His days of masquerading as a democratic leader are over: What we are witnessing is a full blown dictatorship.
UN High Commissioner for human rights, Zeid Ra’ad al-Hussein summed up the current position well:

“Erdogan’s state of emergency imposed after last summer’s coup attempt, targets criticism, not terrorism. He uses emergency powers to target dissent, aimed at consolidating unchallenged power”

Lets hope the TRNC experiences none of the above!

The government now controls all the mainstream press . The economy is falling off a cliff but its not being reported in the press every day i just see positive articles ! The reality is double digit inflation double digit unemployment last quarter negative gdp constant political spats terrorism falling tourism rising oil prices and turkey doesnt have any rising us interest rates leading to hot money capital outflows . Not looking good . Turkey is in recession and stagflation .

Do you mean 'Turkey moving towards dictatorship'? Obviously Erdogan himself can't be a dictatorship.

The answer to that question is NO. Erdogan is Turkey's democratically elected leader and is seeking to resolve long standing parliamentary issues by moving to the system the USA has. So unless you think the USA has a dictatorship then, again, the answer is NO.

Additionally, it is being put to a vote for the Turkish people to decide so it is their choice. On what planet is that not democracy?

The culls in the military have occurred because the military, as well as many other positions of power were infiltrated by Gulen so that the CIA could stage their coup to over throw the Turkish government. They failed, and they hold onto Gulen for dear life - in the face of destabilizing relations with a country that holds nuclear warheads for them - who could show the USA for the corrupt joke it is on the global stage if they let him get extradited.

THAT is why Turkey is the target of systematic malign by Western press, that is why the West cared about him removing gulen supporters as it prevented follow-up coups, that is why CIA is arming the pkk, that is why mooney downrated Turkeys rating at a time when investment was still increasing, that is why they care about Erdogan fixing the system and that is why Europe won't let turkey address their own people in European countries with the highest Turkish population...which is against international LAW.

Everyone in Turkey knows all of this and stands behind Erdogan, that is why Europe needs to engage in nazi tactics to try to get a no vote. A yes vote will make it impossible to attempt over throw the Turkish government ever again.

Unfortunately, people read bullshit propaganda from western media, lap it up and suddenly a free vote in another country becomes 'the business' of the sheep in an assortment of countries.

Answer this question, what has this democratic vote got to do with the West? It is TURKEYS vote and for the TURKISH to decide. Did you ever hear of the time another country changed their system? No? So why do you hear so much about this?....see above.

Dalartokat wrote:For those interested in debate, the UK Parliament discusses Turkey . David Lammy, Labour for Tottenham. makes a strong speech.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... lSituation

Is this the same David Lammy that urged his party to ignore the referendum result?.................Some advert for democracy he is. Turkey is in a financial and political mess - but nowhere near as bad as the labour party.

If Turkey really is falling into recession, where does this put KKTC. After all its only Turkey that is propping us up!

Gozoa you make what seems a valid point about the us system. However the big big issue here is the consolidation if 1 man rule . In no democratic soceity can 1 man rule for 30 years . If something like the us system was being implemented it would immediately prevent erdogan from standing as president . All modern democracies have limits on how long 1 person can maintain power to prevent authoritarianism .erdogan has been in power for c 15 years . All his cronies run everything . The news media etc everything . Thebmedia is 90 % state controlled .

Take a look at the media in the u.s. And how trump gets lambasted . If the same happened in turkey all the journalists would be in prison . Google alec baldwin saturday night live and trump and watch his skits on trump this simply would be unthinkable in turkey as there is not free speech . You end up in prison .

Its very convenient that erdogan wants to move towards a presidential system . You can spin this anyway you want but its very clear this is nothing to do with democracy its a bout 1 man rule .

There are multiple groups trying to over throw the Turkish government and destabilize Turkey for the last year, there are terrorist groups trying to destabilize Turkey, there are traitors throughout the Turkish establishment trying to aid in the destabilization of Turkey right now........right now anyone that assists in the destabilization of Turkey through public dissent of the government DESERVES to be treated as a traitor and to lose their position for the stability of Turkey. It is a state of emergency there right now, not a playground.

Comparing the USA to Turkey in anyway right now does nothing but show a lack of understanding of the severity of the situation in Turkey and how fragile the situation is there.

Try to understand this: CIA with all their clout within Europe is trying to remove the Turkish government. This is a fight for survival that will only be won in Turkey if they can secure the presidential system.

The second you frame your understanding with that fact everything will start to fall in place with the constant attacks against everything Turkish in the media.

For anyone that thinks the world does not work this way, look at Libya - over thrown when they tried to create the gold dinar to sell oil with, Iraq - exactly the same as Libya. The CIA have agents that state openly they have instigated or arranged coups in many countries. The CIA have had planes under their control crash with tonnes of drugs on board. The list is endless, this is the real world.

Erdogan is NOT an enemy of the Turkish people and you are not helping Turkey by being manipulated by western press to think he is.

Why would the CIA want to remove the Turkish Government? They usually prefer the 'devil they know' and its not as if the opposition in Turkey is exactly strong at the moment is it? Why would they want even more instability in a volatile region?

If you are saying "anyone that assists in the destabilization of Turkey through public dissent of the government DESERVES to be treated as a traitor" then sounds like a drift to dictatorship doesn't it? Public dissent and freedom of speech are key features of any real democracy.

The proposal going to referendum in Turkey gives the President far greater powers than a US President. The USA is a Federal state, not a unitary one, and the judiciary is independent (as Trump is discovering to his cost!) not appointed by the President.

You may love Erdogan, that is your prerogative, but he won't live forever, and once you change the constitution then enhanced Presidential powers can be (ab)used by a future President whose politics you may not share.

This is just a perfect example of the naivety the end of my previous post intended to address.

The fact is they already tried to overthrow the government....or do you think some multi-billionaire in the USA was able to orchestrate the coup attempt without the direct involvement of the American secret service? That the West's obsessive 'concern' with Turkey is just to 'save' the democracy of Turkey and the idiotic Turkish population from themselves? That the US government is protecting Gulen out of the goodness of their heart?

Turkey is not Iraq, Turkey isn't Syria, it isn't Eygpt nor Iraq Libya or Afganistan. The CIA and the West can't do to Turkey what they did to all these countless other Countries even if they manage to get all their home populations screaming 'Erdogans a dictator!'. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, will soon be controlling all the energy into Europe (didn't know that did you, some more context to this situation) and will not be bullied.

Long live Turkey and KKTC. Last post on this.

Gozoa wrote:This is just a perfect example of the naivety the end of my previous post intended to address.

The fact is they already tried to overthrow the government....or do you think some multi-billionaire in the USA was able to orchestrate the coup attempt without the direct involvement of the American secret service? That the West's obsessive 'concern' with Turkey is just to 'save' the democracy of Turkey and the idiotic Turkish population from themselves? That the US government is protecting Gulen out of the goodness of their heart?

Turkey is not Iraq, Turkey isn't Syria, it isn't Eygpt nor Iraq Libya or Afganistan. The CIA and the West can't do to Turkey what they did to all these countless other Countries even if they manage to get all their home populations screaming 'Erdogans a dictator!'. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, will soon be controlling all the energy into Europe (didn't know that did you, some more context to this situation) and will not be bullied.

Long live Turkey and KKTC. Last post on this.

Thanks heavens for that!

Apart from the NATO fact it's complete drivel.

Gozos you started the usa comparison so you look pretty stupid . You now have changed the subject as theres no decent argument to how a democracy can allow 1 man rule for 30 years . Turkey is full of conspiracy theories like the supposed earthquakes the cia are trying to cause ..... are the cia also responsible for all the other military coups thats happened in turkey or is it just this one .... could it be the fact that the secular goverment that attaturk implemented and backed by the army is being eroded by an akp party with an increasing islamist agenda that supposedly by law president erdogan by law has no links to ....

If the west wanted to cripple turkey it could simply stop all the investment the bulk of which comes from europe .turkey would collapse it might already happen as the economy is already on its knees erdogan is desperate to get the referemdum done before the economy really really tanks . The akp party had taken all the credit for the economy over the last 15 years now its collpasing its its the cia its foreign powers .theres not a week goes by where erdogan isnt having a spat with someone with constant threats of sanctions or refugee deals or people will pay the highest price . They should be kicked put of nato might be on the cards as ive hearc they have moved all the nukes from incirlik airbase

Hedge-fund wrote:
Thanks heavens for that!

Apart from the NATO fact it's complete drivel.

Well, I can't leave this insult unanswered. So its drivel that the CIA engage in underhand activity like coups is it?

1. Afghanistan
In the 1980s, the U.S. worked with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to overthrow Afghanistan’s socialist government. It funded, trained and armed forces led by conservative tribal leaders whose power was threatened by their country’s progress on education, women’s rights and land reform.

2. Albania
Between 1949 and 1953, the U.S. and U.K. set out to overthrow the government of Albania, the smallest and most vulnerable communist country in Eastern Europe.  Exiles were recruited and trained to return to Albania to stir up dissent and plan an armed uprising.

3.). Argentina
U.S. documents declassified in 2003 detail conversations between U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and Argentinian Foreign Minister Admiral Guzzetti in October 1976, soon after the military junta seized power in Argentina. Kissinger explicitly approved the junta’s “dirty war,” in which it eventually killed up to 30,000, most of them young people, and stole 400 children from the families of their murdered parents. Kissinger told Guzzetti, “Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed… the quicker you succeed the better.”

4. Brazil
In 1964, General Castelo Branco led a coup that sparked 20 years of brutal military dictatorship. U.S. military attache Vernon Walters, later Deputy CIA Director and UN Ambassador, knew Castelo Branco well from World War II in Italy.  As a clandestine CIA officer, Walters’ records from Brazil have never been declassified, but the CIA provided all the support needed to ensure the success of the coup, including funding for opposition labor and student groups in street protests, as in Ukraine and Venezuela today.

5. Cambodia
When President Nixon ordered the secret and illegal bombing of Cambodia in 1969, American pilots were ordered to falsify their logs to conceal their crimes. They killed at least half a million Cambodians, dropping more bombs than on Germany and Japan combined in World War II. As the Khmer Rouge gained strength in 1973, the CIA reported that its “propaganda has been most effective among refugees subjected to B-52 strikes.” After the Khmer Rouge killed at least 2 million of its own people and was finally driven out by the Vietnamese army in 1979, theU.S. Kampuchea Emergency Group, based in the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok, set out to feed and supply them as the “resistance” to the new Vietnamese-backed Cambodian government.

6.)Chile
When Salvador Allende became President in 1970, President Nixon promised to“make the economy scream” in Chile. The U.S., Chile’s largest trading partner, cut off trade to cause shortages and economic chaos. The CIA and State Department had conducted sophisticated propaganda operations in Chile for a decade, funding conservative politicians, parties, unions, student groups and all forms of media, while expanding ties with the military. After General Pinochet seized power, the CIA kept Chilean officials on its payroll and worked closely with Chile’s DINA intelligence agency as the military government killed thousands of people and jailed and tortured tens of thousands more.

7.). Cuba
The United States supported the Batista dictatorship as it created the repressive conditions that led to the Cuban Revolution, killing up to 20,000 of its own people. Former U.S. Ambassador Earl Smith testified to Congress that, “the U.S. was so overwhelmingly influential in Cuba that the American Ambassador was the second most important man, sometimes even more important than the Cuban president.” After the revolution, the CIA launched a long campaign of terrorism against Cuba, training Cuban exiles in Florida, Central America and the Dominican Republic to commit assassinations and sabotage in Cuba.  CIA-backed operations against Cuba included the attempted invasion at the Bay of Pigs, in which 100 Cuban exiles and four Americans were killed; several attempted assassinations of Fidel Castro and successful assassinations of other officials; several bombing raids in 1960 (three Americans killed and two captured) and terrorist bombings targeting tourists as recently as 1997; the apparent bombing of a French ship in Havana harbor (at least 75 killed); a biological swine flu attack that killed half a million pigs; and the terrorist bombing of a Cuban airliner (78 killed) planned by Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch, who remain free in America despite the U.S. pretense of waging a war against terrorism. Bosch was granted a presidential pardon by the first President Bush.

8.)El Salvador
The civil war that swept El Salvador in the 1980s was a popular uprising against a government that ruled with the utmost brutality.  At least 70,000 people were killed and thousands more were disappeared. The UN Truth Commission set up after the war found that 95% of the dead were killed by government forces and death squads, and only 5% by FLMN guerrillas. The government forces responsible for this one-sided slaughter were almost entirely established, trained, armed and supervised by the CIA, U.S. special forces and the U.S. School of the Americas. The UN Truth Commission found that the units guilty of the worst atrocities, like theAtlacatl Battalion which conducted the infamous El Mozote massacre, were precisely the ones most closely supervised by American advisers. The American role in this campaign of state terrorism is now hailed by senior U.S. military officers as a model for “counter-insurgency” in Colombia and elsewhere as the U.S. war on terror spreads its violence and chaos across the world.

9. Ghana
There seem to be no inspiring national leaders in Africa these days. But that may be America’s fault. In the 1950s and 1960s, there was a rising star in Ghana: Kwame Nkrumah. He was Prime Minister under British rule from 1952 to 1960, when Ghana became independent and he became president. He was a socialist, a pan-African and an anti-imperialist, and, in 1965, he wrote a book called Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism. Nkrumah was overthrown in a CIA coup in 1966. The CIA denied involvement at the time, but the British press later reported that 40 CIA officers operated out of the U.S. Embassy “distributing largesse among President Nkrumah’s secret adversaries,” and that their work “was fully rewarded.” Former CIA officer John Stockwell revealed more about the CIA’s decisive role in the coup in his book In Search of Enemies.

10.Guatemala
After its first operation to overthrow a foreign government in Iran in 1953, the CIA launched a more elaborate operation to remove the elected liberal government of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954. The CIA recruited and trained a small army of mercenaries under Guatemalan exile Castillo Armas to invade Guatemala, with 30 unmarked U.S. planes providing air support. U.S. Ambassador Peurifoy prepared a list of Guatemalans to be executed, and Armas was installed as president. The reign of terror that followed led to 40 years of civil war, in which at least 200,000 were killed, most of them indigenous people.

11.Haiti
Almost 200 years after the slave rebellion that created the nation of Haiti and defeated Napoleon’s armies, the long-suffering people of Haiti finally elected a truly democratic government led by Father Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1991. But President Aristide was overthrown in a U.S.-backed military coup after eight months in office, and the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) recruited a paramilitary force called FRAPH to target and destroy Aristide’s Lavalas movement in Haiti. The CIA put FRAPH’s leader Emmanuel “Toto” Constant on its payroll and shipped in weapons from Florida.

12.Honduras
The 2009 coup in Honduras has led to severe repression and death squad murders of political opponents, union organizers and journalists. At the time of the coup, U.S. officials denied any role in the coup and used semantics to avoid cutting off U.S. military aid as required under U.S. law. But two Wikileaks cables revealed that the U.S. Embassy was the main power brokerin managing the aftermath of the coup and forming a government that is now repressing and murdering its people.

13.Iran
Iran may be the most instructive case of a CIA coup that caused endless long-term problems for the United States. In 1953, the CIA and the U.K.’s MI6 overthrew the popular, elected government of Mohammed Mossadegh. Iran had nationalized its oil industry by a unanimous vote of parliament, ending a BP monopoly that only paid Iran a 16% royalty on its oil. For two years, Iran resisted a British naval blockade and international economic sanctions. After President Eisenhower took office in 1953, the CIA agreed to a British request to intervene. After the initial coup failed and the Shah and his family fled to Italy, the CIA payed millions of dollars to bribe military officers and pay gangsters to unleash violence in the streets of Tehran.

So, as I was saying, the West have been doing this stuff for years almost non-stop and counting on the brain dead masses not to realize it at the time by manipulating the media. Then it all gets declassified years later or released in hacks.

I think i've made my point abundantly clear, but if you want another 50 examples - I do have them - before you begin to wrap your heads around this then I will happily get them.

Enjoy the drivel (facts).

Actually, I suspect you're probably still think 'No, this gozoa is just crazy, the CIA would never try to cause disruption in another country and manipulate me through the press into thinking they were doing a good thing. I trust everything my government tells me...Its just impossible!'

So here's some more examples where this happened:-

Iraq
In 1958, after the British-backed monarchy was overthrown by General Abdul Qasim, the CIA hired a 22-year-old Iraqi named Saddam Hussein to assassinate the new president. Hussein and his gang botched the job and he fled to Lebanon, wounded in the leg by one of his companions. The CIA rented him an apartment in Beirut and then moved him to Cairo, where he was paid as an agent of Egyptian intelligence and was a frequent visitor at the U.S. Embassy. Qasim was killed in a CIA-backed Baathist coup in 1963, and as in Guatemala and Indonesia, the CIA gave the new government a list of at least 4,000 communists to be killed. But, once in power, the Baathist revolutionary government was no Western puppet, and it nationalized Iraq’s oil industry, adopted an Arab nationalist foreign policy and built the best education and health systems in the Arab world. In 1979, Saddam Hussein became president, conducted purges of political opponents and launched a disastrous war against Iran. The U.S. DIA provided satellite intelligence to target chemical weapons that the West helped him to produce, and Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials welcomed him as an ally against Iran. Only after Iraq invaded Kuwait and Hussein became more useful as an enemy did U.S. propaganda brand him as “a new Hitler.” After the U.S. invaded Iraq on false pretenses in 2003, the CIA recruited 27 brigades of “Special Police,” merging the most brutal of Saddam Hussein’s security forces with the Iranian-trained Badr militia to form death squads that murdered tens of thousands of mostly Sunni Arab men and boys in Baghdad and elsewhere in a reign of terror that continues to this day.


Korea
When U.S. forces arrived in Korea in 1945, they were greeted by officials of the Korean People’s Republic (KPR), formed by resistance groups which had disarmed surrendering Japanese forces and begun to establish law and order throughout Korea. General Hodge had them thrown out of his office and placed the southern half of Korea under U.S. military occupation. By contrast, Russian forces in the North recognized the KPR, leading to the long-term division of Korea. The U.S. flew in Syngman Rhee,a conservative Korean exile, and installed him as President of South Korea in 1948. Rhee became a dictator on an anti-communist crusade, arresting and torturing suspected communists, brutally putting down rebellions, killing 100,000 people and vowing to take over North Korea. He was at least partly responsible for the outbreak of the Korean War and for the allied decision to invade North Korea once South Korea had been recaptured. He was finally forced to resign by mass student protests in 1960.


Laos
The CIA began providing air support to French forces in Laos in 1950, and remained involved there for 25 years. The CIA engineered at least three coups between 1958 and 1960 to keep the growing leftist Pathet Lao out of government. It worked with right-wing Laotian drug lordslike General Phoumi Nosavan, transporting opium between Burma, Laos and Vietnam and protecting his monopoly on the opium trade in Laos. In 1962, the CIA recruited a clandestine mercenary army of 30,000 veterans of previous guerrilla wars from Thailand, Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines to fight the Pathet Lao. As large numbers of American GIs in Vietnam got hooked on heroin, the CIA’s Air America transported opium from Hmong territory in the Plain of Jars to General Vang Pao’s heroin labs in Long Tieng and Vientiane for shipment to Vietnam. When the CIA failed to defeat the Pathet Lao, the U.S. bombed Laos almost as heavily as Cambodia, with 2 million tons of bombs.


Libya
NATO’s war on Libya epitomized President Obama’s “disguised, quiet, media-free” approach to war. NATO’s bombing campaign was fraudulently justified to the UN Security Council as an effort to protect civilians, and the instrumental role of Western and other foreign special forces on the ground was well-disguised, even when Qatari special forces (including ex-ISI Pakistani mercenaries) led the final assault on the Bab Al-Aziziya HQ in Tripoli. NATO conducted 7,700 air strikes, 30,000 -100,000 people were killed, loyalist towns were bombed to rubble and ethnically cleansed, and the country is in chaos as Western-trained and -armed Islamist militias seize territory and oil facilities and vie for power. The Misrata militia, trained and armed by Western special forces, is one of the most violent and powerful. As I write this, protesters have just stormed the Congress building in Tripoli for the fourth or fifth time in recent months, and two elected Representatives have been shot and wounded as they fled.


Mexico
The death toll in Mexico’s drug wars recently passed 100,000. The most violent of the drug cartels is Los Zetas.  U.S. officials call the Zetas “the most technologically advanced, sophisticated and dangerous drug cartel operating in Mexico.” The Zetas cartel was formed by Mexican security forces trained by U.S. special forces at the School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia, and at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.


Myanmar
After the Chinese Revolution, Kuomintang generals moved into northern Burma and became powerful drug lords, with Thai military protection, financing from Taiwan and air transport and logistical support from the CIA. Burma’s opium production grew from 18 tons in 1958 to 600 tons in 1970. The CIA maintained these forces as a bulwark against communist China but they transformed the “golden triangle” into the world’s largest opium producer. Most of the opium was shipped by mule trains into Thailand where other CIA allies shipped it to heroin labs in Hong Kong and Malaysia. The trade shifted around 1970 as CIA partner General Vang Pao set up new labs in Laos to provide heroin to GIs in Vietnam.


Nicaragua
Anastasio Somosa ruled Nicaragua as his personal fiefdom for 43 years with unconditional U.S. support, as his National Guard committed every crime imaginable from massacres and torture to extortion and rape with complete impunity. After he was finally overthrown by theSandinista Revolution in 1979, the CIA recruited, trained and supported “contra” mercenariesto invade Nicaragua and conduct terrorism to destabilize the country. In 1986, the International Court of Justice found the United States guilty of aggression against Nicaragua for deploying the contras and mining Nicaraguan ports. The court ordered the U.S. to cease its aggression and pay war reparations to Nicaragua, but they have never been paid. The U.S. response was to declare that it would no longer recognize the binding jurisdiction of the ICJ, effectively setting itself beyond the rule of international law.

Here's two dozen examples of CIA involved in drug trafficking scandals. So go on, tell me again how they 'keep the devil they know closer' and don't engage in under hand tactics like they are doing to Turkey right now:-

1940s: the Cosa Nostra, Triads, Black Dragon terrorists and Yakuza;
1950s: the role of CAT and SEA Supply in setting up the "Golden Triangle" opium trafficking network;
1960s-: later "Golden Triangle" drug lords as Khun Sa and Vang Pao;
1960s-1970s: South Vietnamese president Nguyen Van Thieu;
1970s: the Nugan Hand Bank and BBRDW collapses;
1970s-: Bolivia's coca suppliers, starting under dictator Hugo Banzer, with European fascists Klaus Barbie and Stefano Della Chiaie as chief aids;
1970s-1980s: the Medellin Cartel and Cali Cartel in Colombia;
1978: the Honduran cocaine coup of drug trafficker Felix Gallardo and dictator General Policarpo Paz García;
1980: the Bolivian cocaine coup of General Luis Garcia Meza Tajada, once again with Klaus Barbie and Stefano Della Chiaie;
1973-1990: Augusto Pinochet in Chile;
1980-1989: Manuel Noriega and his Mossad henchman Micha Harari in Panama;
1980s: Mexico's Guadalajara Cartel and its government bosses in the DFS and cabinet, in part also revealed through DEA agent Mike Levine;
1982-1985: the pro-Contra BLACK EAGLE operation, ran from George H. W. Bush's office;
1982-1986: the subsequent CIA crack-cocaine affair, Mena affair, John Hull ranch and Ilopango Airport drug smuggling accusations, and finally Iran-Contra, all in relation to these Contra wars;
1980s: Afghanistan and the BCCI in the 1980s;
1998-: the Afghan heroin-linked KBR Halliburton-Far West partnership and the U.S.-tied Alfa Group in Ukraine and Russia;
1999-2001: the drug trafficking accusations and convictions of the flight school owners who trained the primary 9/11 hijackers;
2001-: the Afghanistan heroin production surge post-9/11;
2006-2011: Mexico's Sinaloa Cartel and Operation Fast and Furious.

The threads about moving towards dictatorship and like erdogan to distract everyone from the fact that turkey is being turned into an authoratarian islamic state you have avoided answering this and started blaming everything on the usa ..the long paragraphs you have written are nothing to do with the facts that erdogan is moving towards dictatorship. The rhetoric coming daily from erdogan now is aimed at the locals and generating nationalistic support to garner votes for his dictatorship and 30 year rule . I suppose you agree with calling people nazis ? Turkey has one of the worlds worst human rights records its 99% muslim imagine christians started campaigning on the streets in turkey .... i read yesterday the goverment is planning on banning dating programmes on tv as its against tradtion .....

Gozos . You are similar to a lot of erdogan supporters . They believe verbatum that everything in the goverment controlled media is 100 % true despite some of the stuff like the cia earthquakes . All the turkish press is true and the rest of the world is conspiring against turkey together with the world press. Despite the fact that free press journalists in turkey are now in prison as they are all terrorists . Anyone voting no is also a terrorist ...democracy?

Gozoa wrote:Here's two dozen examples of CIA involved in drug trafficking scandals. So go on, tell me again how they 'keep the devil they know closer' and don't engage in under hand tactics like they are doing to Turkey right now:-

1940s: the Cosa Nostra, Triads, Black Dragon terrorists and Yakuza;
1950s: the role of CAT and SEA Supply in setting up the "Golden Triangle" opium trafficking network;
1960s-: later "Golden Triangle" drug lords as Khun Sa and Vang Pao;
1960s-1970s: South Vietnamese president Nguyen Van Thieu;
1970s: the Nugan Hand Bank and BBRDW collapses;
1970s-: Bolivia's coca suppliers, starting under dictator Hugo Banzer, with European fascists Klaus Barbie and Stefano Della Chiaie as chief aids;
1970s-1980s: the Medellin Cartel and Cali Cartel in Colombia;
1978: the Honduran cocaine coup of drug trafficker Felix Gallardo and dictator General Policarpo Paz García;
1980: the Bolivian cocaine coup of General Luis Garcia Meza Tajada, once again with Klaus Barbie and Stefano Della Chiaie;
1973-1990: Augusto Pinochet in Chile;
1980-1989: Manuel Noriega and his Mossad henchman Micha Harari in Panama;
1980s: Mexico's Guadalajara Cartel and its government bosses in the DFS and cabinet, in part also revealed through DEA agent Mike Levine;
1982-1985: the pro-Contra BLACK EAGLE operation, ran from George H. W. Bush's office;
1982-1986: the subsequent CIA crack-cocaine affair, Mena affair, John Hull ranch and Ilopango Airport drug smuggling accusations, and finally Iran-Contra, all in relation to these Contra wars;
1980s: Afghanistan and the BCCI in the 1980s;
1998-: the Afghan heroin-linked KBR Halliburton-Far West partnership and the U.S.-tied Alfa Group in Ukraine and Russia;
1999-2001: the drug trafficking accusations and convictions of the flight school owners who trained the primary 9/11 hijackers;
2001-: the Afghanistan heroin production surge post-9/11;
2006-2011: Mexico's Sinaloa Cartel and Operation Fast and Furious.

Could have just quoted your cut-and-paste source.

Gozoa wrote:Actually, I suspect you're probably still think 'No, this gozoa is just crazy, the CIA would never try to cause disruption in another country and manipulate me through the press into thinking they were doing a good thing. I trust everything my government tells me...Its just impossible!'

So here's some more examples where this happened:-

Iraq
In 1958, after the British-backed monarchy was overthrown by General Abdul Qasim, the CIA hired a 22-year-old Iraqi named Saddam Hussein to assassinate the new president. Hussein and his gang botched the job and he fled to Lebanon, wounded in the leg by one of his companions. The CIA rented him an apartment in Beirut and then moved him to Cairo, where he was paid as an agent of Egyptian intelligence and was a frequent visitor at the U.S. Embassy. Qasim was killed in a CIA-backed Baathist coup in 1963, and as in Guatemala and Indonesia, the CIA gave the new government a list of at least 4,000 communists to be killed. But, once in power, the Baathist revolutionary government was no Western puppet, and it nationalized Iraq’s oil industry, adopted an Arab nationalist foreign policy and built the best education and health systems in the Arab world. In 1979, Saddam Hussein became president, conducted purges of political opponents and launched a disastrous war against Iran. The U.S. DIA provided satellite intelligence to target chemical weapons that the West helped him to produce, and Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials welcomed him as an ally against Iran. Only after Iraq invaded Kuwait and Hussein became more useful as an enemy did U.S. propaganda brand him as “a new Hitler.” After the U.S. invaded Iraq on false pretenses in 2003, the CIA recruited 27 brigades of “Special Police,” merging the most brutal of Saddam Hussein’s security forces with the Iranian-trained Badr militia to form death squads that murdered tens of thousands of mostly Sunni Arab men and boys in Baghdad and elsewhere in a reign of terror that continues to this day.


Korea
When U.S. forces arrived in Korea in 1945, they were greeted by officials of the Korean People’s Republic (KPR), formed by resistance groups which had disarmed surrendering Japanese forces and begun to establish law and order throughout Korea. General Hodge had them thrown out of his office and placed the southern half of Korea under U.S. military occupation. By contrast, Russian forces in the North recognized the KPR, leading to the long-term division of Korea. The U.S. flew in Syngman Rhee,a conservative Korean exile, and installed him as President of South Korea in 1948. Rhee became a dictator on an anti-communist crusade, arresting and torturing suspected communists, brutally putting down rebellions, killing 100,000 people and vowing to take over North Korea. He was at least partly responsible for the outbreak of the Korean War and for the allied decision to invade North Korea once South Korea had been recaptured. He was finally forced to resign by mass student protests in 1960.


Laos
The CIA began providing air support to French forces in Laos in 1950, and remained involved there for 25 years. The CIA engineered at least three coups between 1958 and 1960 to keep the growing leftist Pathet Lao out of government. It worked with right-wing Laotian drug lordslike General Phoumi Nosavan, transporting opium between Burma, Laos and Vietnam and protecting his monopoly on the opium trade in Laos. In 1962, the CIA recruited a clandestine mercenary army of 30,000 veterans of previous guerrilla wars from Thailand, Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines to fight the Pathet Lao. As large numbers of American GIs in Vietnam got hooked on heroin, the CIA’s Air America transported opium from Hmong territory in the Plain of Jars to General Vang Pao’s heroin labs in Long Tieng and Vientiane for shipment to Vietnam. When the CIA failed to defeat the Pathet Lao, the U.S. bombed Laos almost as heavily as Cambodia, with 2 million tons of bombs.


Libya
NATO’s war on Libya epitomized President Obama’s “disguised, quiet, media-free” approach to war. NATO’s bombing campaign was fraudulently justified to the UN Security Council as an effort to protect civilians, and the instrumental role of Western and other foreign special forces on the ground was well-disguised, even when Qatari special forces (including ex-ISI Pakistani mercenaries) led the final assault on the Bab Al-Aziziya HQ in Tripoli. NATO conducted 7,700 air strikes, 30,000 -100,000 people were killed, loyalist towns were bombed to rubble and ethnically cleansed, and the country is in chaos as Western-trained and -armed Islamist militias seize territory and oil facilities and vie for power. The Misrata militia, trained and armed by Western special forces, is one of the most violent and powerful. As I write this, protesters have just stormed the Congress building in Tripoli for the fourth or fifth time in recent months, and two elected Representatives have been shot and wounded as they fled.


Mexico
The death toll in Mexico’s drug wars recently passed 100,000. The most violent of the drug cartels is Los Zetas.  U.S. officials call the Zetas “the most technologically advanced, sophisticated and dangerous drug cartel operating in Mexico.” The Zetas cartel was formed by Mexican security forces trained by U.S. special forces at the School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia, and at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.


Myanmar
After the Chinese Revolution, Kuomintang generals moved into northern Burma and became powerful drug lords, with Thai military protection, financing from Taiwan and air transport and logistical support from the CIA. Burma’s opium production grew from 18 tons in 1958 to 600 tons in 1970. The CIA maintained these forces as a bulwark against communist China but they transformed the “golden triangle” into the world’s largest opium producer. Most of the opium was shipped by mule trains into Thailand where other CIA allies shipped it to heroin labs in Hong Kong and Malaysia. The trade shifted around 1970 as CIA partner General Vang Pao set up new labs in Laos to provide heroin to GIs in Vietnam.


Nicaragua
Anastasio Somosa ruled Nicaragua as his personal fiefdom for 43 years with unconditional U.S. support, as his National Guard committed every crime imaginable from massacres and torture to extortion and rape with complete impunity. After he was finally overthrown by theSandinista Revolution in 1979, the CIA recruited, trained and supported “contra” mercenariesto invade Nicaragua and conduct terrorism to destabilize the country. In 1986, the International Court of Justice found the United States guilty of aggression against Nicaragua for deploying the contras and mining Nicaraguan ports. The court ordered the U.S. to cease its aggression and pay war reparations to Nicaragua, but they have never been paid. The U.S. response was to declare that it would no longer recognize the binding jurisdiction of the ICJ, effectively setting itself beyond the rule of international law.

Could have just quoted your cut-and-paste source... again.

So, now that you can't argue over the fact that the CIA do this to countries non-stop your complaining that I did not write all the examples from the top of my head and in my own words? What an embarrassment.

The fact is a bunch of air-heads that thought the CIA never did this to a country before just got proven wrong with about 30 examples that proved they do this and WORSE with regularity.

I don't, and the Türkish people don't care what foreigners think of Turkey's internal politics and especially not when they have their opinions given to them by their media and are totally ignorant to the realities of the situation at hand.

This is a free vote, a democratic vote, on whether or not Turkey should adopt a presidential system. In a presidential system he can run for a further 5 more years, then another vote to see if he stays a further 5 years. How is this concept complicated to understand?

AKP has been voted into power for 12 YEARS so far because they, with Erdogan, have modernized Turkey and made it the success it is today.


This might seem so difficult to for you to understand because you lot always hate those in power in your governments, you vote them in, they do a bad job, they leave. Well, Erdogan was voted in, he did a spectacular job....he stays voted in. Its not rocket science.

Don't quote figures in the last year and try to say Erdogan has messed up Turkey. He has literally transformed Turkey over ten years, this is not disputable. Turkey is under attack right now.

So much for not posting again!!

Nobody is suggesting that the secret service of any country doesn't try to influence events abroad. It's their job. I cannot work out why you would think anyone would think otherwise - no-one is arguing on that issue so you posting examples of it surprises no-one.

The issue people are taking with you is that you presented as fact that the US tried to overthrow Erdogan. This is your belief - it is not a fact. I can't see it has been proved anywhere.

Going off on one of your tangents for a bit - it's clear Erdogan is curbing freedoms of people and press. You support him and that's great, that's your democratic right and good luck to you. Imagine you didn't support him and wanted someone else in power. Pop down to Taksim Square with a few anti Erdogan leaflets, a few dozen people and a loud hailer. How long do you think you'd last before you were taken away?..........this is a sign that you are heading towards a one party one man state.

Hedge-fund wrote:So much for not posting again!!

Nobody is suggesting that the secret service of any country doesn't try to influence events abroad. It's their job. I cannot work out why you would think anyone would think otherwise - no-one is arguing on that issue so you posting examples of it surprises no-one.

The issue people are taking with you is that you presented as fact that the US tried to overthrow Erdogan. This is your belief - it is not a fact. I can't see it has been proved anywhere.

Going off on one of your tangents for a bit - it's clear Erdogan is curbing freedoms of people and press. You support him and that's great, that's your democratic right and good luck to you. Imagine you didn't support him and wanted someone else in power. Pop down to Taksim Square with a few anti Erdogan leaflets, a few dozen people and a loud hailer. How long do you think you'd last before you were taken away?..........this is a sign that you are heading towards a one party one man state.

Why not actually read and see where it has been said that the CIA would not try to do something like that? That they have other means more effective to destabilize Turkey, before deflecting from the discussion at hand and then saying I'M responsible for tangents?

Also, as though the CIA would advertise it at the time. You can't be serious??? In every single case that has ever occurred the CIA have actively DENIED involvement before later being proved to have been lying.

Thanks for proving my point, people like you need to be told in your own press before they can understand the realities of any situation. This is already discussed in Turkish press. Deflect now.

Gozoa wrote:Why not actually read and see where it has been said that the CIA would not try to do something like that? That they have other means more effective to destabilize Turkey, before deflecting from the discussion at hand and then saying I'M responsible for tangents?

Also, as though the CIA would advertise it at the time. You can't be serious??? In every single case that has ever occurred the CIA have actively DENIED involvement before later being proved to have been lying.

Thanks for proving my point, people like you need to be told in your own press before they can understand the realities of any situation. This is already discussed in Turkish press. Deflect now.

This thread is about Erdogan and his ever increasing push for absolute power.... Which has nothing to do with the CIA even if you think it has.

The fact that you can't see the evidence that Ergdogan is trying to make the advances started by Ataturk and up to now enshrined in the modern Turkish Constitution a thing of the past says more about you than it does about anything else.

We don't need to deflect as you are doing the job - not very well I might add.

Gozoa wrote:
Try to understand this: CIA with all their clout within Europe is trying to remove the Turkish government..

Prove it.

Just alleging something and then saying "well they wouldn't tell anyone would they" is not a basis for discussion.

It's like talking to the financial genius Waz's political spokesman.

Groucho wrote:
This thread is about Erdogan and his ever increasing push for absolute power.... Which has nothing to do with the CIA even if you think it has.

The fact that you can't see the evidence that Erdogan is trying to make the advances started by Ataturk and up to now enshrined in the modern Turkish Constitution a thing of the past says more about you than it does about anything else.

We don't need to deflect as you are doing the job - not very well I might add.

Haha, I knew this was coming next... The deflection is the fact that someone tried to imply that my examples of CIA controlled coups was not relevant and everyone here already knew the CIA did that kind of thing anyway. No, people were implying the CIA would NOT do that kind of thing in Turkey. Everything I have said is relevant to the topic, whether you are able to follow that or not.

The whole pretext of the move to a presidential system is the fact that it is needed now in the light of the recent CIA enabled coup against Turkey. Some say that no, CIA have nothing to do with it. Well, to them I say, do you really believe a multi-billionaire Islamic cleric in the USA is not under any form of surveillance? Read that again, a multi-billionaire Islamic cleric with strong connections to Turkey's government is NOT under surveillance in the USA. If you think not then you are beyond naïve by ANYONE'S standards.

There is plenty of evidence who was behind the Coup in Turkey, many of the people in the army have openly explained every aspect of the organisation of the coup and it is circulated in the Turkish press. Ask yourself why is the USA so determined to protect this Islamic cleric behind the coup?

At the same time why is USA so determined to keep arming the PKK knowing that the very same weapons have been used in Turkey?

In many of the cases listed above, that I have no doubt you have not bothered to read, there was a propaganda campaign involved. In this case, the campaign is 'Erdogan is a dictator, he is against free press he is anti democracy, because of this we all are opposed to this system change'.

No, Erdogan is the democratically elected leader, he proposes a change to ANOTHER democratic system, he is against any propaganda campaign occurring WITHIN Turkey from the same people behind the coup.

Anyone that isn't to BEGINING to work this out yet has no hope of critical thinking in their life-time, like the poster above who has requested me personally provide evidence against the CIA as though in spite of thirty previous examples of this very situation it would be impossible for the CIA to have been involved again. Hilarious.

"Two weeks after the abortive military coup to overthrow and kill elected Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, more information is coming to light about the heavy US involvement in the bloody events that led to the bombardment of the Turkish parliament and the deaths of 246 Turkish citizens."

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/0 ... k-j28.html

You would do well to carefully read this link and be fully informed before commenting further on this topic. Unless of course you are not really interested in the facts.

As per your link: This is interesting, although I doubt Turkish newspapers are any more reliable or credible than American newspapers. End of.

Today Germany allows thousands of PKK TERRORIST sympathizers to protest in Frankfurt, the same day bans an AKP politician from speaking to expats.

Can you explain that? Would UK let people protest for the release of the head of Taliban just after 9\11 then ban US ministers from talking in the Country? Come on, you MUST see that something is going on here.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/german ... sCatID=510

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turke ... SKBN16P0HQ


You're right, media can't always be trusted, it is the tool of choice for propaganda campaigns, an essential tool the CIA use in coups per earlier examples. But the article mentions facts about that night, not media manipulation:

1. US general held a series of top secret meetings at the Erzurum military base and at Incirlik Air Base. Campbell was the man, “who directed the process of trending/blacklisting the military officers in the base.”

2. During the coup attempt, Turkish fighter jets operated by plotters flew in and out of Incirlik under the eyes of the US military.

3.The initial response of the US government to the latest coup attempt was highly suspicious. When the coup was still unfolding, US Secretary of State John Kerry called, in very general terms, for “stability and continuity within Turkey.” As in Egypt, where the US backed the 2013 military coup against Islamist president Mohamed Mursi, Washington made no call to defend the democratically elected president and issued no expression of concern for his personal safety or even survival.

4. The fact that the Obama administration actually wanted the coup to succeed, and Erdogan dead rather than alive, is most clearly expressed in the response of the American media. Immediately after it became obvious that the putsch had failed, leading newspapers began a concerted propaganda campaign denouncing Erdogan and his government. To cite only a few examples: The Economist accused the Turkish president of “staging his own coup against Turkish pluralism;” The Hill complained that the “failed Turkish coup helps Putin;" and the New York Times opened its editorial pages to Gülen.


The above points are not from a news paper, they are uncontested FACTS about the situation even if you disbelieve EVERYTHING else mentioned. The reality of this sitation clear to ANYONE that takes the time to look at the facts. This is just one little article, there's hoards of others with more and more evidence. This will all come out one day and everyone will say 'well, it was obvious at the time'.

Gozoa, Seems you're digging yourself deeper into a hole. Best climb out now while able. Kemal Ataturk = 5ogressive Political Visionary. Recep Erdogan = Dictator

"https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/0 ... k-j28.html

You would do well to carefully read this link and be fully informed before commenting further on this topic....."

...and perhaps - before giving any credence to anything whatsoever in the link, read here about the foundations, motivations and associations of the publishers of the link...

Gozoa the threads about erdogan becoming a dictator ? You keep saying hes the democratically elected leader . Nonsense . He has been the leader for three terms and unlike other democratic soceities he refused to give up power . He got himself elected as president which is a ceremonial position . According to you one minute the akp prime minister is leader then its the president . Nonsense. Basically whatever hat erdogan wears he is the leader . Its very neat that aftter he exhausted his three terms he has decided irs nest for the president to have all controlling power ......

Erdogan wants a more religious soceity he is on record saying democracy is a train ride and eventually you meet you r destination and its time to get off . That station is approaching . Sharia law is incompatible with democracy as laws dont need to be made they already exist and require a system to implememt then . Thats why islamic states have dictator stly systems so that sharia law can be instigated . Thats fine if thats what you want but its not everybodys cup of tea.

I have in mind a kind of Turkish "Citizen Smith".

What's Turkish for "Power to the people"?

Beware...
...As Turkey provides more and more (water, then electricity, finance, population), so will Turkey's policies and influence grow....
...and those who dissent and disagree, will become those who "support" and/or "are terrorists"....
The Fuhrer (sorry, President) cannot and will not allow any pervasive individuals, criticism or acts that may undermine his authority and power, and permit freedom of speech and human rights....
You are being watched now...
(and I'm not too sure whether I'm joking....)

Hedge-fund wrote:I have in mind a kind of Turkish "Citizen Smith".

What's Turkish for "Power to the people"?

Power to the People.............insanlara güç


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddY-hpy-qxU could be the Turkish Version of Citizen Smith