Hillsborough Disaster

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 9:53 am

At long last the man mainly responsible for the massive police cover up is going to be prosecuted.He and four of his colleges are facing 95 charges of man slaughter

Hopefully this will dispel the myth that the fans were partly responsible for this major tragedy which resulted in 95 incocent men ,women and children losing their life’s while attending a football match.

I sincerely hope that David Duckenfield is found guilty for this horrendous crime and receives a suitable punishment.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 11:45 am

Art, I have no doubt he will be found guilty. What is a suitable punishment though? Imprisonment at his age and his employment background - involving costly separation, all at taxpayer's expense? I do not have an answer, but apart from appeasement to the relatives of the deceased (and I do not demean that in any way) what is going to be gained from this prosecution? Incidentally, the cover up was at a much higher level than the incident commander on the ground, not Duckenfield.

cambridge · Post by **cambridge** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 1:41 pm

Whilst I have no doubt that the police officer in charge made a huge mistake. But to absolve completely from some responsibility the fans arriving at the last minute in huge numbers cannot be correct. I have watched the videos available.
I'm standing by for the flak

Mr Chinnery · Post by **Mr Chinnery** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 2:10 pm

Well said Cambridge,
I too have seen the video footage and the swell of supporters at the very last minute is noticeable.
The Instruction apparently was open the gates to relieve the pressure , if not people are going to get hurt.
So imagine what would have happened if the gate had not been opened.
So the powers that be were in a no win situation.

Mollie the cat · Post by **Mollie the cat** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 2:15 pm

Correct. I was a serving ranking Police Officer for 32 years and Policed many many high ranking football matches. Believe you me it was no fun, fans who were well tanked up before the match, the abuse we received was just unreal.
Hindsight a great thing AFTER the event, yes of course mistakes were made obviously non intended, but to say the fans did not contribute to the sad incidents on that day was just plain wrong. By all means let the justice system make the decision but please don't hang the guy before the trial.

Mr Chinnery · Post by **Mr Chinnery** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 2:25 pm

Mollie the cat,
The problem was at the time it was made out the ‘fans’ were to blame and this was taken as those who died were to blame. What should have been reported is that it was the late comers who were responsible for causing the surge at the last minute.
But as usual let’s blame the Police who as usual were in the no win situation.

Mollie the cat · Post by **Mollie the cat** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 3:29 pm

Again correct. Let me assure people an operational order is completed weeks before a big match. Officers on duty are not only well trained,,but receive at least two if not three briefings before and on the day of the match. Health and safety, welfare of fans, emergency planning are a high priority with both the match commander and officers policing the match.

Consultations with club and regular meetings take place, lets not forget since that very unfortunate disaster the way matches are policed and the way stadia are built are vastly different to those bad old days. Of course our hearts go out to those who perished on the day and their relatives, let the courts decide who if anyone was to blame that day.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 4:16 pm

The official and lengthy enquiry completely exonerated the fans and there was little evedience of excessive drinking.
Drinking before a football match is normal even now but the police used excessive drinking as part of the reason for the fatalities...this clearly was not the case....read the report if you have any doubt.

Duckfield and his team fabricated large amount of evidence which was exposed during the official enquiry .He is now rightly facing manslaughter charges for gross negligence of 95 football fans.He got his match strategy and control wrong on the day and then embarked on a massive cover up which caused unnecessary stress and grief to many family members.

Ask yourself why he is being charged if this was not the case.

Mr Chinnery · Post by **Mr Chinnery** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 4:38 pm

Art,
If there was a cover up, that didn’t cause the deaths of 95 People, that’s a separate incident. If there was a cover up so be it and people who were involved in that should be punished.
The report stated the persons who ‘died’ had not consumed excessive alcohol, even if they had that would not have caused the incident as they were already in the ground.
The Manslaughter charges that might occur are for the actions or lack of actions of Duckinfield on the day.
How was he to know by opening the gate what would occur . He could of course kept the gate shut in which case he wouldn’t know what would happen either.
What would you have done?
Think of this, had the surge of late comers not been determined to get in that ground at all cost do you think the crush would have happened?

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 4:50 pm

Art, yet again, we will have to differ. Written text does not mean fact, even if within an official report. (Blair absolved PIRA murderers in an official report, yet they were still guilty of that crime). Duckfield and some officers on the ground may have 'fabricated large amounts of evidence' (which, incidentally, supports my earlier point of accuracy of reported fact). (However, the cover up will have involved others at a far higher level in the CoC. The Incident Commander (Duckfield) could not have managed a cover up on his own at his level of command on the day. This is, however, all academic and will do nothing to bring back the lost lives or appease relatives' grief. I just disagree with your tenor on cover up responsibility and Duckfield being hung out to dry on his own. Having faced masses of demonstrators, drink-filled or not, decisions are often taken as situations develop despite many pre-event briefings and rehearsals. It ain't fun, believe me!

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 5:16 pm

Tom,

I’m on the same page as you.

There was some suggestion that the Home Secretary of the day was involved but this was never proven of course.

In answer to your first post -hopefully the procecution and the final verdict will help to bring closure for the families and relatives who have suffered enormously.

Interesting the report uncovered evidence relating to written statements which the police had deliberately tampered.This is why Duckenfield will go to trial.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 5:59 pm

Mr. Chinnery.

My issue with Duckenfield relates to the massive cover up following the disaster.

And yes I agree he had some extremely difficult decisions to deal with on the day,which he didn’t get right but instead of admitting he’d got it he wrong he covered it up.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 6:51 pm

But Art, you continue to concentrate your focus on Duckenfileld, a foot soldier on the ground. The cover up reaches far higher. Ergo, my disagreement with your contention Duckfield, is, alone, responsible. He is but one link in a nefarious chain. They should all face the force of the law, but what chance of that?

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 7:35 pm

As a frequent supporter who went to many games throughout the 79s and 80s I’d like to make a few comments on this.

1) Hillsborough was known as an unsafe ground. I went to the Spurs-Wolves semi final in 1981 and many of us were terrified and felt lucky to get out of there alive. You can see on YouTube supporters who had to go onto the pitch side to get away from the crush.

2) Due to hooliganism fences went up in the seventies and in 1985 I think Ken Bates put up electric fences at Chelsea and was only stopped by the GLC from turning them on. The press were on the whole in favour of Chairman Ken’s initiative which sends the blood cold when thinking of Hilsborough and electric fences too.

3) The police were generally heavy handed at football matches often with good cause.

4) It was only The Taylor report after Hilsborough that forced the clubs to spend any money on their grounds which does actually bring into focus the complaints on what footballers now earn.
In the 50s grounds could get attendances of 70,000 and due to the maximum wage paid their players £10-£20 a week. What happened to all that money? It certainly didn’t go into the facilities. Incidentally The Taylor report was the ninth on crowd safety. In 1946 33 people died at Bolton’s ground and in 1971 66 died at Ibrox.

5) To this day opposition supporters chant always the victims and it’s never your fault at Liverpool supporters. Cruel but totally inaccurate?
After Heysel the Liverpool chairman ludicrously attempted to blame Chelsea supporters for the tragedy, a tragedy the Liverpool supporters to this day seem to refuse any culpability for. Despite the positive press coverage calling them the most knowledgeable and sporting fans in the country throughout the 70s and 80s Liverpool supporters were known to have their fair share of thugs. It is easy to be sporting and clap the other team when you have won 5-0 and are winning everything.
No book on Liverpool football club in Europe is complete without stories of their supporters bunking into grounds without tickets but at Hillsborough we have to believe for the first time ever that all the supporters had tickets and were not trying to crush their way in as they had often done in the past.
I feel for the victims at Hillsborough as they bought their tickets got there early and were killed. They were completely innocent. I don’t believe that Liverpool supporters were completely innocent any fans who go to the games don’t believe it either hence the chants.

6) As for the police they handled it badly there is no doubt of that but they panicked and have tried to cover up their panic.
Who is to say that had they not thrown the gates open that people wouldn’t have been killed outside the gates? Those supporters who arrived late were determined to get in that ground with or without tickets.
As for alcohol not playing a part I’m assuming that is based on the blood samples of the victims .
No one has ever questioned they had tickets and were sober.
How many of those pushing were breathalysed?
I think after the Sun’s appalling article the press will never push for The Truth of that day. The Sun has lost a fortune in lost sales in Liverpool and the press is a business like any other.

Mr Chinnery · Post by **Mr Chinnery** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 7:58 pm

Art,
Your reply to me -
‘My issue with Duckinfield relates to the massive cover up following the disaster’
That doesn’t make him guilty of Manslaughter.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 30 Jun 2018 8:28 pm

Yes i entirely agree.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 12:33 am

Mr Chinnery wrote:Well said Cambridge,
I too have seen the video footage and the swell of supporters at the very last minute is noticeable.
The Instruction apparently was open the gates to relieve the pressure , if not people are going to get hurt.
So imagine what would have happened if the gate had not been opened.
So the powers that be were in a no win situation.

The Police shouid have been in control of the crowds in and around ground, if there was swell of supporters at the last minute, this was through poor Police control , if the gate was opened to prevent injury in Leppings Lane, why didnt the order follow to delay kick off and open the gates on to the pitch.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 12:53 am

tomsteel wrote:But Art, you continue to concentrate your focus on Duckenfileld, a foot soldier on the ground. The cover up reaches far higher. Ergo, my disagreement with your contention Duckfield, is, alone, responsible. He is but one link in a nefarious chain. They should all face the force of the law, but what chance of that?

Duckenfield is not alone there are others charged with perverting the course of justice amongst other things before we feel sorry for Duckenfield he has had plenty of time to think about what happened at the time and after and come forward with information regarding the cover up.
He chose to take the long established step into the shadows of a nice pension and has been dragged back into the light only by the tenacity of the familys

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 1:10 am

Art wrote: Interesting the report uncovered evidence relating to written statements which the police had deliberately tampered.This is why Duckenfield will go to trial.

Remember this is South Yorkshire Police.

http://www.thejusticegap.com/2016/06/ti ... -orgreave/

When the IPCC later considered the evidence connected to Orgreave they revealed that: SYP accepted that excessive force had been used by officers on the day; that senior officers exaggerated the violence used by the miners; that some officers committed perjury relating to the civil claims and that all of this was then covered up by the force.

Following the collapse of the criminal trial no disciplinary action was ever taken against any of the officers involved. Civil claims were brought against the force for actions including wrongful arrest, malicious prosecution and assault. In 1991 the force paid out £425,000 in an out of court settlement to 39 of the miners, as a result the evidence against SYP was never properly interrogated

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 2:26 am

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... e-orgreave

In the case against one miner, Bryan Moreland, a police statement was signed at the bottom by two named officers. Baird argued that one officer's signature was clearly not in his handwriting and had been forged. She requested that when the court adjourned for lunch, a handwriting expert be called to examine the signature, to which Judge Coles, presiding, agreed. When the court reconvened after lunch, it was announced that the original statement had gone missing
Copies were nevertheless analysed by a Home Office handwriting expert, whose opinion was that the signature on the statement was not written by that officer.

fast forward 4 years----

In his report, Taylor identified as the "immediate cause" of the 96 deaths the failures of the match commander, Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, who had ordered an exit gate to be opened to relieve pressure outside the ground, but failed to direct the incoming supporters away from the tunnel leading to the overcrowded central "pens" on the Leppings Lane terrace. That, Taylor ruled, was a "blunder of the first magnitude".

Duckenfield, with the disaster unfolding, lied about the opening of the exit gate, saying Liverpool supporters had forced it, a version that was initially broadcast on television before being corrected. A videotape of CCTV footage went missing on the night of the disaster, from the locked control room at Hillsborough, a theft for which no culprit was ever caught. However, the CCTV footage that survived showed the gate being opened from the inside on Duckenfield's order.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 5:38 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... e-19577033

The above link covers the key findings taken from the HIllsborough Report.

It makes interesting reading..

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 11:50 am

Art wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... e-19577033

The above link covers the key findings taken from the HIllsborough Report.

It makes interesting reading..

The police made some dreadful decisions but if they hadn’t have opened the exit gate would the crush and deaths happened elsewhere?
As I said the ground was known to be unsafe and it was a miracle that no one was killed in 1981. Or maybe we didn’t have ticketless fans pushing their way in to exasperate the situation?
Or we believe that for that one game every Liverpool supporter had a ticket and for a cup semi-final didn’t chance their arm forcing their way in? The entryways into football stands were always tight 50 burly louts pushing would cause a domino effect.
I don’t think the police are the only ones being economical with the truth here and many are hiding amongst the true victims.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 3:44 pm

Fair comment and you are spot on about the previous stadium safety issues which were well known and documented.

According to the HIllborough report (for whatever reason) the SYP and SW club authorities decided it was safe to proceed with the match.

The match should never had been played at this stadium as it was clearly a high risk.

The decision to go ahead resulted in 95 innocent fans losing their lives and David Duckenfield played a major part in the decision to go ahead....a decision I’m sure he will live to regret.

The disaster had nothing to do with alcohol fueled or ticketless supporters,

Corruption at the highest level.

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 4:12 pm

Art wrote:
The decision to go ahead resulted in 95 innocent fans losing their lives and David Duckenfield played a major part in the decision to go ahead....a decision I’m sure he will live to regret.

The disaster had nothing to do with alcohol fueled or ticketless supporters,

Corruption at the highest level.

Did Duckenfield make the supporters at the back push?
People do not crush themselves someone has to start to push.
If the fans were so well behaved, sober and not to blame why did the match commander make the decision to open gates to try and prevent a crush outside the ground?
Did south Yorkshire police police the Heysel stadium?
Liverpool supporters have yet to admit they did anything wrong at Heysel and blame the safety of the stadium so there is little chance any will admit to any wrong doing at Hillsborough.
If the ground was safe; if the police had managed this crowd better, then this crush might not have happened. If Liverpool fans were not pushing and shoving to get in, the crush would not have happened.
How is it that Liverpool fans now apparently have no culpability for events of that day?
I find it difficult to believe that a large number of Liverpool supporters were not at Hillsborough without tickets. I went to the Crystal Palace Liverpool 3-3 draw a few years ago and saw Liverpool supporters without tickets trying any means necessary to get into the stadium.

We have become a society where no one has responsibility for their actions.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 4:49 pm

The Hillsborough Reports begs to differ and I quote..

“It is evident that the safety of the crowd admitted to the terrace was compromised at EVERY LEVEl.”

The report then details in full the reasons why.

During my long life I have experienced the pushing and shoving at a football match especially from the back but I’m still alive to tell the tale.Gates of 50,000 at St Andrews were quite the norm and belief me there were more than a few drunks there on the day...Maximum capacity now is around 33,000

As previously stated this game should never have gone ahead and Duckenfield is partly responsible..not the Liverpool supporters.

PS I’m a Brummie not a Liverpudlian.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 4:51 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster

Lord Taylor concluded that the behaviour of Liverpool fans, including accusations of drunkenness, were secondary factors, and said that most fans were: "not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". He concluded that this formed an exacerbating factor[32] but that police, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the element of drunkenness in the crowd.[94]

The report dismissed the theory, put forward by South Yorkshire Police, that fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets were contributing factors.[8

Taylor concluded his criticism of South Yorkshire Police by describing senior officers in command as "defensive and evasive witnesses" who refused to accept any responsibility for error: "In all some 65 police officers gave oral evidence at the Inquiry. Sadly I must report that for the most part the quality of their evidence was in inverse proportion to their rank".[84] Further stating: "South Yorkshire Police were not prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault in what occurred. ... [T]he police case was to blame the fans for being late and drunk, and to blame the Club for failing to monitor the pens. ... Such an unrealistic approach gives cause for anxiety as to whether lessons have been learnt".

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 4:58 pm

Art wrote:The Hillsborough Reports begs to differ and I quote..

“It is evident that the safety of the crowd addimitted to the terrace was compromised at every level.”

The report then details in full the reasons why.

During my long life I have experienced the pushing and shoving at a football match especially from the back but I’m still alive to tell the tale.

As previously stated this game should never have gone ahead.

And Heysel? The ground again?

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 5:01 pm

Mollie the cat wrote:. Let me assure people an operational order is completed weeks before a big match. Officers on duty are not only well trained,,but receive at least two if not three briefings before and on the day of the match. Health and safety, welfare of fans, emergency planning are a high priority with both the match commander and officers policing the match.
.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster

Police presence at the previous year's FA Cup semi-final (also between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest and also at Hillsborough Stadium) had been overseen by Chief Superintendent Brian L. Mole.[26] Mole had supervised numerous police deployments at the stadium in the past. In October 1988 a probationary PC in Mole's F division, South Yorkshire was handcuffed, photographed, and stripped by fellow officers in a fake robbery, as a hazing prank. Four officers resigned and seven were disciplined over the incident. Chief Superintendent Mole himself was to be transferred to the Barnsley division for "career development reasons". The transfer was to be done with immediate effect on 27 March 1989.[27]
N
Meanwhile, Hillsborough was accepted as the FA Cup semi-final venue on 20 March 1989 by the Football Association.[26] The first planning meeting for the semi-final took place on 22 March and was attended by newly promoted Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, not by Mole. No known minutes exist of this meeting.[27] Although Mole could have been assigned the semi-final match's planning despite his transfer, that was not done. This left planning for the semi-final match to Duckenfield, who had never commanded a sell-out football match before, and who had "very little, if any" training or personal experience in how to do so

Art · Post by **Art** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 5:06 pm

Very interesting point!

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 5:33 pm

No one questions the fact that the police cocked up and the ground was unsafe and the ones at the front were 100% innocent I just struggle to justify the inevitable compensation claims that will come from the fans who imo played a part and will now claim they are suffering from stress because they crushed a kid at the front to bully their way into the match. Like I said they never accepted any blame for Heysel

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 5:38 pm

".... Duckenfield, a foot soldier on the ground." Chief Superintendent? Not exactly what I would (IMO) class as a "foot" soldier...
From other previous posts, it appears that he may have been thrown in at short notice with little (if any) experience of controlling such venues, and if he was guilty through this lack, incompetence and/or negligence, this should be noted.
However, if after the event, he was or became aware of the (in short) "cover-up", he should (and hopefully will be) charged and tried together with the others who are facing charges of perverting the course of justice - that definitely is not inexperience, incompetence or negligence, but a deliberate premeditated crime.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 5:46 pm

jofra wrote:".... Duckenfield, a foot soldier on the ground." Chief Superintendent? Not exactly what I would (IMO) class as a "foot" soldier...
From other previous posts, it appears that he may have been thrown in at short notice with little (if any) experience of controlling such venues, and if he was guilty through this lack, incompetence and/or negligence, this should be noted.
However, if after the event, he was or became aware of the (in short) "cover-up", he should (and hopefully will be) charged and tried together with the others who are facing charges of perverting the course of justice - that definitely is not inexperience, incompetence or negligence, but a deliberate premeditated crime.

The point is the post-event cover up was initiated at a far higher level than Duckenfield, who was a boots on the ground officer, despite his rank. His experience, competence and ability in this area of policing in an accepted unsafe ground is a question to be explained.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sun 01 Jul 2018 6:02 pm

I entirely agree Tom and he could well end up as the sacfricial lamb but he’s the one in the dock now.

As usual the real perpetrators are either dead now or untouchable.

I will follow the trial with interest and hopefully Duckenfield will sing like a canary....I live in hope.

No hope and Bob Hope!

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 12:54 am

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:No one questions the fact that the police cocked up and the ground was unsafe and the ones at the front were 100% innocent I just struggle to justify the inevitable compensation claims that will come from the fans who imo played a part and will now claim they are suffering from stress because they crushed a kid at the front to bully their way into the match. Like I said they never accepted any blame for Heysel

Are you saying this wouldnt have happened if any other teams supporters had been there?
No other teams have supporters who travel without a match ticket?
All other fans held hands and waited in line to be called forward?

Ive not read reports of running street battles that day, but i read about the delayed train and late coaches from Liverpool which meant hundreds of fans being escorted by no doubt fewer Police (which implies at least some cooperation) to the ground, probably with mounted officers bringing up the rear to keep them moving. The officers of course having the advantage of communication with inside the ground;

A request to delay kickoff was refused by the match commander.

the fans only way of knowing what was happening was the cheers from inside when the teams came out and a early goal attempt unlike the Police who had radios and cctv

Art · Post by **Art** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 5:47 am

Not to delay the kick off was yet another disastrous decision by the authorities and was a significant reason for the crowd surge into the ground.

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 10:09 am

kerry 6138 wrote: Are you saying this wouldnt have happened if any other teams supporters had been there?
No other teams have supporters who travel without a match ticket?
All other fans held hands and waited in line to be called forward?

Those set of circumstances, police cock ups and unsafe grounds were not rare at the time.
Football’s luck run out at Hillsborough but it was always going to be Liverpool.
Their supporters are notorious for travelling in large numbers to games without tickets always were and still are.
Here is a link to a Liverpool fan website
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/in ... 150.20;wap

What is interesting is the admin stepping in with this comment; ” whats more bunking's been a part of matchgoing culture for a considerable section of our fanbase for a generation. There's a lot more out there willing to do it than this lad and it would be better to focus on solutions than blaming people”

So the fact that every supporter apparently had a ticket that day is surprising.

I think The Sun’s disgusting article and the subsequent boycott of the paper made any criticism of them a no go area and Liverpool generally accept no blame for pretty much anything.

They refused to accept that Luis Suarez was guilty of racially abusing Patrice Evra even though the player himself admitted it.

They refused to accept that Michael Shields was guilty of attempting to kill a Bulgarian man with a paving slab whilst celebrating Liverpool FC’s European Cup win in 2005.

Heysel wasthe fault of Chelsea fans or the unsafe ground.

So given the horror of knowing your actions might be responsible for killing your friends at the front there is zero chance that Liverpool supporters were going to own up to bunking into the ground.

The police cocked up and the ground was unsafe but that would happen most weeks at many stadiums, the third part of the tragic sum we aren’t allowed to acknowledge.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 11:29 am

Dont really see yours or SYP logic with or without tickets this was a badly handled crowd control issue, and the tactic SYP learnt at Orgreave was admit nothing , lie if you have to but most importantly brief the government and the Press,
rioters become hooligans and yobs, strikers become illegal pickets or ticketless drunken Liverpool fans.
Mud sticks.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ld-cup-ids

Lets hope South Yorkshire Police dont go has advisors./ spotters

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 11:59 am

kerry 6138 wrote:Dont really see yours or SYP logic with or without tickets this was a badly handled crowd control issue, and the tactic SYP learnt at Orgreave was admit nothing , lie if you have to but most importantly brief the government and the Press,
rioters become hooligans and yobs, strikers become illegal pickets or ticketless drunken Liverpool fans.
Mud sticks.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ld-cup-ids

Lets hope South Yorkshire Police dont go has advisors./ spotters

The police handled it badly they generally did. Police lied, they often do.
But this sort of thing happened every week in many unsafe grounds up and down the country.
All the elements were there in 1981 which was Spurs first cup semi final for 14 years. Perimeter fences were up we were in the Leppings stand but no one was killed. We had delays semi final day always causes delays. Did the police save us? Nope the supporters held back as best as they could at the back because they realised people were being crushed at the front.
Many were lucky but not many were bunking in the stadium which was the missing element that averted a disaster.
That is the reason why most supporters who go to football matches and know Liverpool supporters sing always the victims never your fault.
Stil going to body swerve the Heysel disaster? Ground, Chelsea supporters or.......

Art · Post by **Art** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 12:42 pm

The report dismissed the theory,put forward by SYP that fans attempting to gain entry with or without tickets or with forged tickets were contributing factors.

And again I repeat the report completely exonerated the Liverpool fans from helping to cause the disaster.

I’m really struggling to understand why you continue to suggest that the LP fans through their actions helped to cause the disaster- this is just not true.

Have you read the report?

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 12:53 pm

Not swerving Heysel , came to this thread with a interest in the similarities between Orgreave and Hillsborough, I'm not a Liverpool fan or a football fan for that matter unless you consider a dozen or so Rotherham United games in the 70s makes me a fan, I do remember Millwall and Notts Forest had a reputation then.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster
Hillsborough hosted five FA Cup semi-finals in the 1980s. A crush occurred at the Leppings Lane end of the ground during the 1981 semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers after hundreds more spectators were permitted to enter the terrace than could safely be accommodated, resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs.[19] Police believed there had been a real chance of fatalities had swift action not been taken, and recommended the club reduce its capacity. In a post-match briefing to discuss the incident, Sheffield Wednesday chairman Bert McGee remarked: "Bollocks—no one would have been killed".[20][21] The incident nonetheless prompted Sheffield Wednesday to alter the layout at the Leppings Lane end, dividing the terrace into three separate pens to restrict sideways movement.[9] This 1981 change and other later changes to the stadium invalidated the stadium's safety certificate. The safety certificate was never renewed and the stated capacity of the stadium was never changed.[9][22] The terrace was divided into five pens when the club was promoted to the First Division in 1984, and a crush barrier near the access tunnel was removed in 1986 to improve the flow of fans entering and exiting the central enclosure.

So just maybe the difference between how hundreds of Spurs fans behave compared Liverpool fans had little to do with averting a disaster in 81

At 2:46 pm, the BBC's football commentator John Motson had already noticed the imbalance of distribution of people in the Leppings Lane pens. While rehearsing for the match off-air, he suggested a nearby cameraman look as well.[33] "There's gaps, you know, in parts of the ground. Well, if you look at the Liverpool end, to the right of the goal, there's hardly anybodyon those steps...that's it. Look down there."[33]

When the gates were opened, thousands of fans entered a narrow tunnel leading to the rear of the terrace into two overcrowded central pens (pens 3 and 4), creating pressure at the front. Hundreds of people were pressed against one another and the fencing by the weight of the crowd behind them. People entering were unaware of the problems at the fence; police or stewards usually stood at the entrance to the tunnel and, when the central pens reached capacity, directed fans to the side pens, but on this occasion, for reasons not fully explained, they did not.[37] A BBC TV news report conjectured that if police had positioned two police horses correctly, they would have acted as breakwaters directing many fans into side pens, but on this occasion, it was not done.

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 1:26 pm

Art wrote:Have you read the report?

Yes I have and like with all reports it is a selection of the facts.
Over the last thirty odd years I have spoken to people who were resident in the area and their memory of the Liverpool supporters doesn’t tally with what made the report. The ticketless fans wasn’t just put forward by the South Yorkshire police the Merseyside police also put forward the theory.
The narrative is to blame the ground and the police and not even consider Liverpool supporters being culpable.
It is eaten up by everyone who wasn’t a regular match goer and had experience with the most sporting fansa in the country.
After Hillsborough don’t you think they might change?
I saw with my own eyes the same thing happen at Selhurst Park and their behaviour in the Champions League final a few years back was a disgrace.
A few hundred supporters trying to bunk their way into a game would be more than enough to cause a crush and I refuse to believe every supporter had a ticket.
It wasn’t the only factor but it was a factor. Giving them a pass on it will just cause the same thing to happen in the future in a different way.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 1:38 pm

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Art wrote:Have you read the report?
Yes I have and like with all reports it is a selection of the facts.
Over the last thirty odd years I have spoken to people who were resident in the area and their memory of the Liverpool supporters doesn’t tally with what made the report. The ticketless fans wasn’t just put forward by the South Yorkshire police the Merseyside police also put forward the theory.
The narrative is to blame the ground and the police and not even consider Liverpool supporters being culpable.
It is eaten up by everyone who wasn’t a regular match goer and had experience with the most sporting fansa in the country.
After Hillsborough don’t you think they might change?
I saw with my own eyes the same thing happen at Selhurst Park and their behaviour in the Champions League final a few years back was a disgrace.
A few hundred supporters trying to bunk their way into a game would be more than enough to cause a crush and I refuse to believe every supporter had a ticket.
It wasn’t the only factor but it was a factor. Giving them a pass on it will just cause the same thing to happen in the future in a different way.

Art, why do you continue to believe a written report accurately and really depicts what happened on the day? I could and have given examples of official reports stating absolute b----s (Blair/ PIRA being but one). Get off this mantra and maybe people will judge your view with less scepitism.

Art · Post by **Art** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 2:13 pm

I don’t think people are judging my view with skepticism Tom -And trawling through the posts,people’s views are evenly balanced which makes for a good debate.

As for having belief in the report-what reason (apart from the Blair lies )should I not believe the contents of the report.

Are you suggesting the report is incorrect so therefore Duckenfield shouldn’t be procecuted-if you are - what is your rational and what elements of the report are you disputing?

aripointer · Post by **aripointer** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 2:36 pm

Enjoying the Sun
All your postings on the subject are 100%. I have been a victim of Liverpool fans bunking in at Highbury in the 60/70s. On one occasion children in the family section had to be moved on to the pitch for safety reasons. The police were powerless to evict the culprits. It was in the days of pay your money at the turnstile and you were in the ground. Yes it is all about compensation. How come the thugs who bunked in were never prosecuted- they are the real culprits!!

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 3:16 pm

aripointer wrote:Enjoying the Sun
All your postings on the subject are 100%. I have been a victim of Liverpool fans bunking in at Highbury in the 60/70s. On one occasion children in the family section had to be moved on to the pitch for safety reasons. The police were powerless to evict the culprits. It was in the days of pay your money at the turnstile and you were in the ground. Yes it is all about compensation. How come the thugs who bunked in were never prosecuted- they are the real culprits!!

I think anyone who has seen Liverpool supporters in action view with skepticism the narrative that on that day all had tickets and were well behaved. I’m not saying they are the only supporters who bunk in without tickets but are certainly the worst in my experience and something they take pride in.
I don’t believe it is all about compensation although it would sicken me if some of the fans partially responsible collected any. I do feel for the families of the victims who are seeking closure and I’m sure compensation is the last thing on their minds. But I do believe that for their peace of mind they refuse to believe that their own had any part in the tragedy. I liken it to serviceman’s families who discover that their loved ones died by friendly fire. It must be much easier to believe they died by the enemies hand or in this case solely because of the police.
I am not a big fan of the police but just can’t hold them solely responsible it doesn’t compute with all the facts not just those in the Taylor report.

Art · Post by **Art** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 3:25 pm

Yes it’s all about compensation!

Is it really?

How about bringing those to justice for the manslaughter of 95 innocent men ,women and children who didn’t return home from a football match which should never have taken place.And how about bringing those to “account” for their incompetence and for covering up the truth and for doctoring statements.

No amount of compensation will cover the suffering the families and relatives have endured over the many years and the trauma suffered by those directly affected.

aripointer · Post by **aripointer** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 5:24 pm

Art

How many Liverpool supporters/thugs were convicted??? Innocent people were killed by them.

Ambulance Chasers comes to mind.

AP

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 6:22 pm

Art wrote:I don’t think people are judging my view with skepticism Tom -And trawling through the posts,people’s views are evenly balanced which makes for a good debate.

As for having belief in the report-what reason (apart from the Blair lies )should I not believe the contents of the report.

Are you suggesting the report is incorrect so therefore Duckenfield shouldn’t be procecuted-if you are - what is your rational and what elements of the report are you disputing?

No Art, I am not suggesting Duckenfield should not be prosecuted if the Authorities deem it proper to do so. However, my point is, he is but one small cog in a big chain of cover up. 'Official reports ' are very often not worth the paper they are written on and should be viewed with a great deal of scepitism.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Mon 02 Jul 2018 11:53 pm

aripointer wrote:Art

How many Liverpool supporters/thugs were convicted??? Innocent people were killed by them.

Ambulance Chasers comes to mind.

AP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RPMXVBug5o

youtube 20 min compilation video of video evidence seen at the inquest
"Hillsborough disaster footage" it includes time stamped police , cctv and bbc footage including outside the ground near the turnstiles in leppings lane and on the approach roads

in one shot round 2;35 fans are seen 4 a breast hands in pockets almost like a Knotty Ash dole queue, in amongst them a mounted Police officer totaly ignores the ticketless Liverpool thug next to him scaling the wall, probably because at his age a conviction would have been difficult and his long batton was still in repair after Orgreave.

Footage of the approach roads seems no worse than Tescos on black friday and more orderly than the rush to Dogankoy mosque on any Friday.

Has the crowd builds around the gates and turnstiles, half dozen mounted officers can be seen milling through the crowd like moses parting the Red Sea unable to check tickets because the size of their mounts they make no attempt to hold back the crowd from entering the concourse
no animals were hurt in the making of this scene except in AP's and ETS's case has if you look closely a couple of Liverpool thugs wince when hoof meets toe.

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Tue 03 Jul 2018 8:44 am

kerry 6138 wrote:
aripointer wrote:Art

How many Liverpool supporters/thugs were convicted??? Innocent people were killed by them.

Ambulance Chasers comes to mind.

AP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RPMXVBug5o

youtube 20 min compilation video of video evidence seen at the inquest
"Hillsborough disaster footage" it includes time stamped police , cctv and bbc footage including outside the ground near the turnstiles in leppings lane and on the approach roads

in one shot round 2;35 fans are seen 4 a breast hands in pockets almost like a Knotty Ash dole queue, in amongst them a mounted Police officer totaly ignores the ticketless Liverpool thug next to him scaling the wall, probably because at his age a conviction would have been difficult and his long batton was still in repair after Orgreave.

Footage of the approach roads seems no worse than Tescos on black friday and more orderly than the rush to Dogankoy mosque on any Friday.

Has the crowd builds around the gates and turnstiles, half dozen mounted officers can be seen milling through the crowd like moses parting the Red Sea unable to check tickets because the size of their mounts they make no attempt to hold back the crowd from entering the concourse
no animals were hurt in the making of this scene except in AP's and ETS's case has if you look closely a couple of Liverpool thugs wince when hoof meets toe.

Excellent a youtube video always conclusive proof.
Before I lose twenty minutes of my life I’ll never get back what will a selective edited video really prove?
I’m sure if you looked at Heysel footage long enough you could cobble together a montage of Liverpool supporters reading their programs while their mates were murdering Italians.
Hoolaganism isn’t about the majority of suppprters. When Manchester United supporters were causing anarchy up and down the country on the 70s it probably wasn’t more than 2% of their regular home support. Unfortunately 2% of 50,000 can seem a lot when you are facing them.

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