Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

My take on moderation on a forum like this.

I see this site as being Soner's house. He is the one who built it, who paid for it to be built, who pays for its ongoing maintenance. He is also the one who is liable if something goes on in his house that is 'illegal'. It is his house but he built it to allow those who wanted to, to come to it, to chat, to discuss, to help each others and the like. I came to his house by my own choice. No one forced me to do so. I came and stay as a guest of Soner. As someone who uses his house and is grateful to him for creating it and maintaining it , I offered to help out a bit if I could and Soner wanted such help.

That is the basis on which I offered to help moderate here and to which Soner accepted the offer. For me it was nothing to do with a desire for more 'power' or 'authority' over anyone else who also uses Soner's house. It was just an offer to help out a bit, as and when I could or was willing to, as an expression of my gratitude to Soner.

Most of the 'work' in such helping out, such moderating, in terms of time and in terms of 'actions' is actually just 'tidying up' in the way I think Soner wants such tidying up done. That is in moving threads to the correct sections. I see this as akin to, at a party in Soner's real house, offering to go around and collect up empties and abandoned part empty drinks and move them in to the kitchen. It is not glamorous work, it does not involve having power over others, its just something that needs to be done and someone needs to do it and if no one helps that someone is Soner alone. It does involve 'judgement calls' in terms of 'is that glass with a couple of centimetres of beer left in the bottom 'live' or 'dead'. I do help out on the basis that I am not obliged too, that I too am allowed to 'enjoy the party' as well and when and how much time I spend tidying up and how much enjoying the party is entirely up to me. There is no obligation , just my own personal choice. Of course if everyone at the party just carried their own dead empties or partial empties to the kitchen then there would be no need for me to help out doing this 'tidying up' but they do not, so there is. These days, having helped out for a number of years previously and quite 'enthusiastically' the reality is I do almost no such tidying up at all, having personally grown weary of it and having a certain sense of frustration along the lines of 'oh why can people not just tidy up there own stuff more ?'

Now sometimes I pick up a glass that appears 'dead' that is not dead, I make a bad judgement call. If when I do this the person who's glass it is starts 'having a go at me' for me doing so, starts saying why did I pick up his 'not dead' glass and carry it off to the kitchen and not 'that one' that is just over there, starts lecturing me on how with authority comes responsibility and things like that, I find that a bit 'harsh'. Even more so if the person having a go is someone who regularly comes to Somer's parties and spends quite a lot of time explaining what they think is wrong with Soner's house, why it should have been built this way and not that way and generally creates an impression that they do not like his house very much and complains at the way I have been trying to 'keep it tidy' for Soner according to his wishes. I find it even more harsh again if in response to all this I suggest they also try helping out and tidying up and they refuse that invitation whilst still insisting that I tidy up the way they would prefer, like maybe never taking away a glass that appears dead but might not be. I find arguments along the lines of 'look if you agree to help out and tidy up you then have an obligation to do so consistently and universally, just moving empties and dead glass as an when you feel like it is not good enough' similarly 'harsh'

Now another thing moderators do, that is much less common is make decisions (almost always via discussion with the other mods and Soner) on if certain things should or should not be deleted entirely or certain people should be suspended and the like. I hate this part of 'helping out'. Even from the earliest days I did so only reluctantly and and partially and these days not at all. To me this is the equivalent in my analogy terms of helping clean up sick that someone has left in Soner's house. Thus I find it quite 'harsh' when people have a go at me for the way I do this, if I do it at all. That claim they do not like the way I have done my best to clean up the sick, that I am not doing it properly and that I should do it this way instead. Again I find it even more 'harsh' when in response to such criticisms I suggest the person themselves gets involved in 'cleaning up the sick' and they reply no I do not want to clean up sick, I just want you to do it in the way I think it should be done. And again I find arguments that, just because my role as a 'helper' (moderator) is voluntary and unpaid, that is no excuse for me only cleaning up sick, when I want to but not when I do not. That just by agreeing to help out I have a duty and obligation then to clean up all sick and any sick that is around and that if I am not prepared to do this I should not 'help out' (be a moderator) at all. I find all this a bit 'harsh'.

Now sometimes at Soner's party a discussion turns in to a row and in response to this Soner steps in. He says look please do not discuss this subject here, I am banning this discussion or subject. If in response to this someone involved in that discussion starts banging on about 'freedom of speech' and 'censorship' and how it is not acceptable for Soner to silence such discussion, I find all that a bit 'harsh' too. Some times I am even one of the parties that is involved in such a discussion. If when Soner when he is 'adjudicating' such a dispute appears or even does 'favour' me in such over the other party who has never helped out ever, that does not know Soner personally as I have come to, as a result of previously offering to help out, starts banging on about 'favouritism' and 'one rule for one and one rule for another' I find all that a bit 'harsh' too.

Now over time Soners parties have become more and more popular with more and more people attending them and the cost of maintaining the house has grown accordingly. In response to this Soner has decided to allow advertisers to place adds around the house to try and help with the costs of maintenance and in order to ensure the parties do and can continue in to the future. He allows these advertisers to do things that normal guests can not do, like say place an advert on a stand on the edge of the dance floor. If in response to this someone complains about the advertising, or complains about it when it is place somewhere 'in the way' I find this a bit harsh too.

I have in the past offered many times to Soner to 'resign' as a moderator and he has to date always declined such offers. I have done so when others have been unhappy with how I have moderated and also done so on the basis that really I no longer actually do very much at all. That Soner has declined such offers to me is understandable , when in analogy terms it is in effect offering to resign from 'helping out'.

Now all of this is how I see the role of moderating here. I do not claim it is the only way to see that role or the right way. It is however the way I see it.

Moderate or interrogate, at times it's hard to tell the difference with you, this is my last post on this forum while you are in your present position as your attitude disgusts me.

elizabeth wrote:Moderate or interrogate, at times it's hard to tell the difference with you, this is my last post on this forum while you are in your present position as your attitude disgusts me.

I am sorry about that and your decision will once again lead me to offer Soner my resignation as such a moderator.

elizabeth wrote:Moderate or interrogate, at times it's hard to tell the difference with you, this is my last post on this forum while you are in your present position as your attitude disgusts me.

Elizabeth come and join me and many others in the "Hounded out room"....its getting a bit crowded in here now but still a few places left..

Elizabeth (if you are still here) despite what you may think the idea that you are leaving the forum because of me and my actions, no matter how 'misunderstood' I may think they are, is very upsetting to me. I would like to try and find a way that means you do not leave the forum if that is possible. So how about I run a poll here, asking something like, do you think the forum would be better off if Erol was not a moderator, with option of 'yes', 'no' and 'none of the above' with a time period of a couple of weeks. I will 'step down' as a moderator if yes gets a majority on the understanding that you will not leave if no does ?

For anyone wondering why I do not just step down anyway I may yet do but my 'conflict' with just doing that is that for me and to my eyes there is an issue in terms of me and Soner in just doing so. I am still struggling with that.

In my opinion - mods should not make 'acceptability of content' type moderating decisions in threads they are participating in.... as this is a conflict of interest. It's a very tough decision to bite your tongue when you feel passionate about the subject matter but that's the dichotomy of moderating. Be either a mod or a poster not both within a thread. A decision to move a thread is not relevant to my point... unless we have a section for 'Racist diatribe' that would silly....

We must have moderation and we must have threads... self-moderation is the best type.

Groucho wrote:In my opinion - mods should not make 'acceptability of content' type moderating decisions in threads they are participating in.... as this is a conflict of interest. It's a very tough decision to bite your tongue when you feel passionate about the subject matter but that's the dichotomy of moderating. Be either a mod or a poster not both within a thread. A decision to move a thread is not relevant to my point... unless we have a section for 'Racist diatribe' that would silly....

We must have moderation and we must have threads... self-moderation is the best type.

A good point......”either be a mod or a poster not both within a thread”.

However; I have found that sometimes when I comment on a thread (not moderate a thread) some will still point out that I am a moderator. No idea why. There is of course an option to post under a different username I.e. one username for moderating and another for commenting however I think that a persons “style” of writing would easily be recognisable and having two usernames would be pointless. I try to make it obvious if my post in a thread is as a moderator or as a member contributing to the discussion and my take is that this forum is for everyone. Of course if anyone has any constructive criticism or concerns then sending a pm to a moderator or Soner is probably the best.

With regards to decisions made by mods as to acceptability of a thread or the content my take is that if I lock a thread, delete a topic etc there are other moderators on the forum who will see my actions. If they feel my moderation was incorrect they will let me know, plus as always Soner has the final say. So posts can and have been unlocked and returned to the forum. If mods are unsure of what action is needed then we do discuss off line.

I am a member on another forum and there is an “ignore” facility available whereby if you find that a particular posters comments always raise the hackles you can place them on ignore so you don’t see or read their posts. I have never used this facility, not sure how it really works but I know some who have. May not be practical on this forum but that’s a decision for Soner.

As I have said before; moderating on this forum has its moments, mainly its pretty harmless sly digs about how a forum works, is laid out, adverts or is moderated. Whilst at times frustrating and wearing, I will say that in the main the majority of members do self moderate.

I must admit that I was surprised to find that Erol is a moderator. I am not questioning his integrity, but he does get very involved in certain threads when he holds a strong opinion. I'm not sure whether conflict of interest is relevant, although it may be, in certain queries and complaints re Multimax, but to me it just doesn't sit right that he is such an active poster and a moderator. Posh seems to take more of a backseat, and is therefore less visible.

I do admire anyone doing anything freely for the common good, but how things may be perceived should be taken into consideration.

Groucho wrote:In my opinion - mods should not make 'acceptability of content' type moderating decisions in threads they are participating in.... as this is a conflict of interest. It's a very tough decision to bite your tongue when you feel passionate about the subject matter but that's the dichotomy of moderating. Be either a mod or a poster not both within a thread. A decision to move a thread is not relevant to my point... unless we have a section for 'Racist diatribe' that would silly....

We must have moderation and we must have threads... self-moderation is the best type.

Maybe I am getting overly sensitive here ?

Do you think Groucho that my splitting elizabeth's thread, at the request of another poster, was an 'acceptability of content' moderation decision ? I do not personally.

I can state categorically that I personally have NEVER made an 'acceptability of content' mod decision in regards to a thread I myself have been involved in as a 'poster'. Never shut down a thread I have been involved in as a poster (unless the thread creator has request it be shut down). Never deleted other peoples posts in threads I have been involved in. Any time I have felt a thread I have been involved in as a poster needed 'acceptability of content' I have 'reported it' and let some other mod or Soner make their decision, as any normal poster can do. I have been scrupulous about this.

frontalman wrote:I must admit that I was surprised to find that Erol is a moderator. I am not questioning his integrity, but he does get very involved in certain threads when he holds a strong opinion. I'm not sure whether conflict of interest is relevant, although it may be, in certain queries and complaints re Multimax, but to me it just doesn't sit right that he is such an active poster and a moderator. Posh seems to take more of a backseat, and is therefore less visible.

I do admire anyone doing anything freely for the common good, but how things may be perceived should be taken into consideration.

And again and despite the statement that my integrity is not being questioned I can state in all sincere honesty that I have NEVER moderated a thread I have such a connection too. I have always, always, 'recused' myself from moderating decisions that I have a personal connection to, either by being a poster in that thread or by them being about a company I work for. I have been scrupulous about this.

I can confirm that.

To me the only reason someone couldn't be a poster and a moderator was if they used their moderator powers to censor or amend an opinion they didn't agree with. I have never seen any evidence of Erol doing that so I can't see any reason he can't carry out both roles.

I am as of this moment standing down as a moderator here. This is my own personal decision.

The only thing that had stopped me from doing so earlier was the idea that doing so by 'fiat' decision, if in fact Soner's preference was that I remain a moderator, was in some sense and degree placing what was 'convenient' to me ahead of and above my prior 'commitment' to him to try and help out where I could if he wanted that help. Following discussion with Soner I now feel released from any such commitment and thus able to stand down.

The standing down takes effect from now. The implementation of removing any abilities I had as a moderator will take effect from whenever it is convenient to Soner to do so.

I sincerely hope this decision of mine means that Elizabeth no longer feels she has to stop participating here but if that is the case or not, I am still standing down regardless.

I am pleased to hear that Errol. You can never be Judge and Jury. In my opinion you have tried to crucify that poor woman who posted in utter ignorance without malice. I personally don’t know if you are either anti British or just PC correct . Either way you are out of order and continue to waffle on in a diatribe of rubbish. Let me tell you something.The British are the most tolerant people in the world and the majority of us have to wind our necks in and not say what is actually on our minds. Why do more Cypriots as you like to refer to them live in Blighty than North Cyprus. Enjoying the sun liked your post on colonialism and whilst you have had numerous discussions with Errol which have frankly bored me to death I have noticed how you have defended him. Do people really understand the British humour or the way we express ourselves even as I suppose Errol like yourself you have lived in our green and pleasant land. Goodbye.

jackvern wrote:
Enjoying the sun liked your post on colonialism and whilst you have had numerous discussions with Errol which have frankly bored me to death I have noticed how you have defended him.

I defended Erol not abusing his position as moderator because I don't think he has. Maybe Erol will try to close down a subject verbally but he has never censored one to my knowledge and I speak as someone who has had more arguments with him than most and would I imagine be a prime target for that censorship.
Personally I think Erol was in the wrong highlighting the fact that the lady was identified as Russian because I don't think it had any importance.
Maybe he, like many others, sees "micro aggressions" where there aren't any, I don't know.

jackvern.

My name is spelt Erol with one r.

I do not know what you are talking about in terms of me being 'judge and jury'. My best guess is that you are accusing me of having abused the abilities I had as a moderator, even though I have categorically said I have never done this, Soner has confirmed this is true and ETS has said he has seen no evidence I have ever done so. If my guess at to what you mean about judge and jury is correct you are calling me a liar, calling Soner a liar and implying that ETS is too stupid to be able to see such. How is THAT for 'rudeness' ? Can I start a thread about your rudeness ? About the rudeness of the British as a people compared to others.

Your waffle and diatribe on the British is of no interest to me. For the record I am British in every sense of the word. Legally, by birth right, by where I was born, by where I lived and grew up for the first 35 years of my life, by parentage on my mothers side.

Your opinion is that my intent was to try and 'crucify' that poor woman. This is just not true. I have explained what my motivations were when I made the post I did so I guess you are again calling me a liar, in that oh so British tolerant way of saying it with out having to actually say it, with your neck wound in. While you can only speculate what my motivations and intent were I KNOW as absolute fact what they were. So keep calling me liar if you want, with your opinions on what my motivations were.

Yes I lived in 'your' green and pleasant land, because it is also MY green and pleasant land as a UK citizen. The place I was born in, to a British mother with generations of British forbears.

------------

In general.

Some here complain that the term racism get's abused. That things have got so bad (all the fault of the left) that you can not say anything at all that someone will not label as racist regardless of if it is or is not in reality racist. That such abuses shut down and undermine free speech and fair debate. I have never disagreed that using the term racism can be or is abused in such way. People talk of snowflakes and the like. However you can not (if logical consistency and fairness matter at all) have it both ways. You can not seek to shut down my right to free speech and fair debate on the basis of untrue accusations, outrage and the like at your opinion of what my motivations and intent were. To act like a 'snowflake'. To do so is from where I am sitting just hypocrisy.

Thanks Erol, for years of fair and honest moderation of a product that is inherently beyond moderation.

Moderation "may" only be effective if there was only one member of the site and one moderator but if you have more than that then it will become impossible due to the human intervention.

I have no doubt that in the past you have run an IT help desk, probably the most wrongly named product in the history of the World, that would be the only reason, having served an apprenticeship of pure hate, you have survived the post of Moderator for so long.

Thanks for the help in the past and good luck in the future.

I cannot comment on Erol's performance (or not) as a moderator on the Forum. However, his technical expertise/assistance to IT issues to the likes of me has been invaluable. I am so glad he will remain here.

Posh in Devon - if you click on a avatar there is a option to select, mark has friend or foe I've no idea what they actually do never used the facility.

Has a poster in the original thread I wasn't going to add anymore, elizabeth said her piece quite well, which is why please dont leave the forum.

Erol and I have had a few differences of opinions but I've never thought his role of moderator was a problem so I'm sorry he feels the need to stop.

My post was in response to what I perceived to be a rude insinuation of racism in elizabeth posting that I couldn't see, had it been posted by someone who I thought English was their second language I would have let it go.

Erol is aware from previous post that I'm not a fan of political correctness and personally I think this is why we sometimes clash the idea that the word expat is used by Brits to imply superiority for example, if now we need to use terms like " non Cypriot " or if referring to someone's nationality add a caveat is the thin edge of the wedge of censorship.
Hind sight is 20:20 but maybe a new thread would have been a better way to go than what appeared to be a weighted post directed to elizabeth.

waddo wrote:Thanks Erol, for years of fair and honest moderation of a product that is inherently beyond moderation.

Thanks for the thanks but really if thanks are being given out then it is Soner and Posh in Devon who are due them as they have always done vastly more of this thankless task than I have and will be continuing to do so where as I am now free of this burden. No doubt there are some that will see any giving of thanks to any moderator as just being an attempt to curry favour but hey ho that is life I guess.

Can I also thank you for daring to stick you neck out in to this whole storm and say anything positive about me at all. I have had one message (so far ?) in private and off board expressing 'support' for me as a person, my integrity and things like that but who felt unwilling to do so here publicly for fear of the 'wrath' doing so might bring down on them from some others here. Kind of ironic really given the way words like 'bullying' are being thrown around. So thanks. (you too tom).

kerry 6138 wrote:My post was in response to what I perceived to be a rude insinuation of racism in elizabeth posting that I couldn't see,

Hind sight is 20:20 but maybe a new thread would have been a better way to go than what appeared to be a weighted post directed to elizabeth.

Can I thank you kerry for using terms like 'perceived' and 'appeared' rather than just stating the things following such terms as clearly and indisputably undeniable fact as some others have done and do. Thanks.

Occasionally the "list" of moderators (at the top of the page) has registered in my consciousness, and while I only recognise a couple of names, I would like to express my appreciation and gratitude for a "job well done" by ALL the moderators - and one that I would not like for all the tea in China!
I also note and appreciate the use of "perceived" and "appeared" - THESE are the crux of any discussion....
A prime example (IMO) in the UK is the subject of speed cameras - stated/claimed by the multitude that the ONLY purpose is to make money - when in fact that that is what is (merely) perceived to be the purpose...

I would like to offer my support to Erol. I should add that I have known him personally for many years.

He has always been willing to offer any help, advice or knowledge. I tend to agree with almost every word he has written.

His offers of help always come without conditions.

I find some, but not all forum members who engage, disagree with Erol, eventually respond with comments that become personal and negative. This may be because he is usually able to “win” most discussions because he does his research.

It is clear to most that he has an excellent grasp of the English language and is an extremely eloquent contributor.

Some here, including myself, automatically tend to disregard any form of authority. A moderator has a job, by choice, that they can only ultimately upset the member(s) or the “owner(s).

I am sure that if we all met and spoke to the moderators and other members that have upset us, we would find them all normal human beings.

Erol, you owe me three Efes and a packet of crisps! It’s a little joke to try and inject a little smile.

Steve

Butterflyaway wrote:Erol, you owe me three Efes and a packet of crisps! It’s a little joke to try and inject a little smile.

Steve

If I had any idea which 'steve' you were you might even get them, despite it being a joke. In any case you have massively undersold yourself, you should see what I paid the others for their expressions of support (joke)

I have no axe to grind, I know Erol and respect him as he probably knows. I feel he has probably made the right decision here. My observations were based solely on what I read on this forum. If he had decided to continue in the role of moderator I would have accepted it no problem.

Having not been on here for a couple of days I logged on today to find this and have to say I am sad to see it. First of all as I have stated in a previous thread I have in my past been a moderator of a forum for a number of years and know what you have gone through Erol. Whilst I did see some of the thread that appears to have caused all of this trouble I must have missed some of that as well. I agree with the principle that you should refrain from acting as a moderator in any thread you are active in as yourself and that was one of the strong principles the team I worked with adhered to very strictly. Having said that it would appear that this forum works pretty much as the one I was on in how discussion between the Moderators takes place before any serious decisions are made. I have found it to work well on here and have never had an issue (in the short time I have been a member) with anything.

Erol if you are guilty of anything it is passion and you know I have raised that before in your jousts with Enjoying the Sun. To be fair I just found them boring so eventually if I saw you two were on one I just moved on and read something else instead. There is no criticism of either of you implied in that just a comment that if I was bored of it all many others could will have been and often the pair of you could have continued via pm as there was never going to be a position where you agreed. Your passion for the forum is obvious though and whilst I think it is a shame that you have chosen to leave I accept that you have done so for the right reasons 'for you'. I am assuming/hoping you will remain here as an active member.

So having stuck my head above the parapet along with Waddo realise I may have opened myself up to some flak but so be it. Thank you for all of your work on here which I have benefited from on more than one occasion and I hope to keep reading interesting viewpoints from you in the future.

Chriswright03, Never worry about the parapet and where your head is, honesty, integrity and be true to yourself in all things! It was how I was brought up and I can't change the way I am. I have always been and remain still, one of those people who will gladly fall on my sword when it is my fault, much to the consternation of those who will always insist that they are right regardless. Probably why I will never be financially rich but there are other things I am rich in and I am content with that! You have a good day out there and remember there is no such thing as a free lunch!! - lol.

Chriswright03 wrote:
To be fair I just found them boring so eventually if I saw you two were on one I just moved on and read something else instead

YOU were bored, you should have been in the debate!