Are the TC's about to sell the ex-pats down the river?

trooper · Post by **trooper** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 3:07 pm

Apropos the so-called Peace Talks, am I the only one to have a sneaking suspicion that in the event of a 'solution' we the ex-pats will find ourselves having been S..t upon from a great height?

This of course is about the property issue. Notwithstanding what is written in the CT and elsewhere by the BRS I do think that Mr Akinci and his fellow appeasers will sacrifice the ex-pats in the blink of an eye. Quite what the outcome will be is of course not certain but while the TC's will almost certainly not suffer I don't think there is much doubt that we will. I suspect if the late, great Rauf Denktash were still with us we could expect a deal of protection but sadly the last great leader of the TC's has gone. Despite what the ex-pats have done for the economy of the TRNC I fear it will count for little this year.

So what do you others think? In particular those ex-pats who have sold up and are committed to living here permanently.

Am I being overly cynical or it is just realism?

Answers on a postcard please.

Leither · Post by **Leither** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 3:18 pm

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 3:31 pm

Steady the buffs, even if there is a settlement and the TRNC issued 'deeds' prove to be less than 100% worth what you paid for them I'd put money on the right to domicile due to occupation would grant all owners of property in the north some rights... if that means you need to pay compensation to the original owner offset by the TC property exchanged in the south it's still not a complete disaster....

There are two scenarios I can foresee here.

1. You live in a villa built on virgin land i.e. there is no record in the last 100 years of a home standing on that land, you might have to pay compensation for the land. We must all have suspected this even though the TRNC Govenrments in the past have said this would not happen....

2. you live in a previously Greek Cypriot occupied property, more complex but still under EU law (and any settlement would need to embrace this aspect) the former owner may well want more compensation as it was a family home - but still the precedents of the IPC and the new property commission being muted do not constitute being sold down the river...

I know it's unsettling but the ECHR will always be our fall-back position. Any decision that favours Cypriots over other nationalities can easily be proven to be unfair and racially based.

Remember in law possession is 9/10ths of the law.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 3:35 pm

Right now we can but speculate. For what it is worth, in my opinion

Any property commission set up to handle property disputes in the event of a settlement will not be able to treat Cypriot 'current users' (TC or GC) any differently to non Cypriot ones. In some cases 'current users' may have to accept compensation (monetary or alternate property) to allow pre 74 owners return of property and in others it will be the pre 74 owners that will have to accept compensation in favor of the 'current users' but I believe that any rules used by such a commission in making such decisions will have to apply equally whether the party is a Cypriot national or not.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 3:48 pm

I would also add I bought a property knowing that the title was 'disputed' at some level and the price I paid reflected this. If as a result of a settlement this property becomes 'undisputed' and thus increases in value by say 30%, I do not think it unreasonable that this increase in value could be used in some way to aid compensation claims elsewhere and not necessarily accrue to me personally. Exactly how this might work I am not sure but in principal I am ok with the concept.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:01 pm

I/We are ex pats and intend to live out our lives here, having burnt the bridges to the UK and brought our vast resources (under £8K) with us to lead a life of peace and quite. We have a leasehold property built on Turkish Title land so feel fairly safe. However, we like the vast majority of ex pats living here are "Visitors" and not "Citizens" and I feel that therein lies the rub and around which all things in the future will revolve.

It is really dependent upon the EU and the Island. If the Island is in the EU and becomes two federated parts then both parts should remain within the EU, if that be the case then Citizenship can not be denied by either part. That is a major hurdle to jump because it brings with it all the other EU rules and regulations that will also apply - it is a minefield.

brian24001 · Post by **brian24001** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:08 pm

I think you need to view this a little from the opposing view.

The GC's (and the EU/UN etc) view Turkey as an illegal occupying force. They are seen and conspirators with the TC's, and indeed also occupiers of TC lands, not just GC lands, here at the behest of and welcomed by the TC administration.

Any so called settlement will be viewed by the GC's as capitulation to their demands, and the demands of the international community.
Speak to may GC's and they will tell you 'one day we will return to our lands', so they will see this not as settlement but as surrender, their long term aim achieved.

Whilst the new combined administration may seem all friendly at first, remember the old saying 'keep your friends close, and your enemy closer', the underlying objective, indoctrinated still in GC schools will remain to remove the TC's from the island.

This 'will' happen, it is simply a question of numbers. The GC's will vote for what they want, they will by percentage vote control funds, development, investment, everything, just as they did pre-1974.
They will claim (and award themselves) virtually all the re-build, compensation costs etc. under the claim of being the most affected by the acts of the Turkish army, and the TC's will be left as they used to to collect the rubbish, and sweep the streets.

As for the other foreigners here, a lot may depend on where any property is, i.e. does anyone turn up with a title deed etc to prove they once owned the land or property on it.

Around 1974, the population of Kyrenia for example was about 3,000. A good number of those will be dead by now, and many other will have no idea where their family property or land was, or even if they had any.

All TC's that have taken 'exchange' land this side have surrendered deeds for land on the RoC side, and it is easy to imagine other land swaps then made official.

It is hard to imagine the first GC wanting to move to TC areas, cautious of those around thenm, and in the same way hard to imagine many TC's moving to the other side.
Add to this, the peer pressure, which is in the extreme on the GC's would mean anyone moving to a TC area would come under question from their own communities.

I doubt there will be a great deal of movement of people at all, at least for some years.

Those with the most to fear, and loose, will likely be the TC's, if they do 'capitulate' as it will be interpreted, I fear they will cease to exist on the island within a generation or two, as was the master plan pre-1974.

trooper · Post by **trooper** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:31 pm

Brian. I also think the tc's are in for some serious dissapointments come the great day. Within five mins they will bexworking for the ghastly gc lot. They have a very short memory.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:37 pm

brian24001 wrote: Those with the most to fear, and loose, will likely be the TC's, if they do 'capitulate' as it will be interpreted, I fear they will cease to exist on the island within a generation or two, as was the master plan pre-1974.

For me if the history of Cyprus from the end of ottoman rule to today shows anything, it shows that the TC community in Cyprus has both the will and the means to survive on the island they consider their homeland?

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:41 pm

As this simple forum quite often shows, it is a much different world now to that of 1974. Whilst some of the the GC's may wish "to return to our own lands" there is actually nothing to stop them doing that now - so why have so very, very few attempted this? There may be those who view Turkey as an occupying force, most of those are not members of the Guarantor Powers anyway and some who are members are simply hiding their own lack of action Pre and Post 74 to even bother with. Nobody in their right mind will think that should a settlement happen and the Turkish "occupying force" return to its native land that should once again a situation arise as did in 74 that they will not return. There is no "Enemy" to keep closer BUT there are politicians that will need careful watching! I have no doubt that of the circa 3000 people who lived in Kyrenia in 1974, 19,000 GC's will turn up along with 3000 TC's - but to prove that any title deed is legal will take a very long time. Which deed will be held true - that of Zorba the fisherman or Ali the goatherd?

I do not think that the modern day TC surrender anything, there are far too many very clever people here now and the thought that they would return to street sweeping and rubbish collection is just another GC pipe dream. I am with you all the way Erol, the TC has learnt the hard way about that other old saying "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts".

doctor59 · Post by **doctor59** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:42 pm

The first commercial shuttle lands on Mars. You are more likely to see that headline rather than Reunification. Still somewhere new for U.N postings.!!

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 4:42 pm

trooper wrote:Brian. I also think the tc's are in for some serious dissapointments come the great day. Within five mins they will bexworking for the ghastly gc lot. They have a very short memory.

just my own personal opinions.

I would be happy to work for a GC if they were a decent employer. I do not fear 'competition' or 'discrimination', I am happy to compete with my skills in an open market place. If I feel that I have been subject to unfair discrimination I would pursue my rights, just as I would in the UK or any where else. There will be rich Cypriots and there will be poor Cypriots and the rich will employ the poor to do their dirty work and then there will be even poorer immigrants to do the work that even the less well off Cypriots do not want to do. This is the way of the world.

guru · Post by **guru** » Sat 08 Aug 2015 6:41 pm

Property will be such a complicated issue to sort out as so many variables.

Someone living in a GC house.
Someone living in a house on GC land where the GC house was demolished and new house built.
GC land that was previously scrubland and has now been developed and a house built.
Ditto above but where multiple communal apartments/villa complexes have been built with multiple occupiers.
Land that was undeveloped in 1974 and remains undeveloped.
Undeveloped and unused land pre '74 that is now 'farmed' by a TC for his livelihood.
TMD (gift) land.
Esdeger (exchange) land.

The list goes on.

Not forgetting that the European courts have ruled that current users also have rights to the property they occupy as well as the pre 1974 owners.

Whatever property commission is set up I think everything will have to be assessed case by case and if/when this starts the re-unification will be complete and the EU Acquis in the north will be in force, so they will not be able to discriminate between TC/GC and brits or other EU citizens.

As to who will pay any compo, who knows. At the moment the remedy is the IPC which Turkey currently funds, but in the event of a settlement that may go in a different direction, maybe EU money, or a combination of funds from various sources but I don't think they can focus purely on purchasers of property to stump up the compo as surely both GC and TC governments need to shoulder most of the responsibility for the mess that property is in, not the purchasers.

As far as the north goes, the TRNC government gave buyers permission to purchase, they allowed whatever TC the GC land was given to in 1974 to sell it on for profit or develop it, gave planning permission and building control consent, took money in the form of land registry taxes and KDV from buyer and seller, issued title deeds, and continue to take property and council taxes, so they cannot simply wash their hands of it and if they do I think they will end up being challenged thru the European courts, not forgetting that they will also be officially EU members by then.

With exchange land, the TC supposedly gave up their land in the south to the TRNC government in exchange for land given in the north on a points value, so after a settlement that land given up in the south will have a value which should be used to offset any value of the land given in the north in exchange. Therefore, if the TRNC Gov holds this land in the south then they will have to use it towards paying compensation, they can't just keep it and expect the current owners/users to pay up! It could even be that the land held in the south is valued higher than the exchange land in the north.

We are on a communal site of mixed nationality purchasers, brits, Russians, Scandinavians et al AND TC's, the land was previously undeveloped and is 'exchange' land so I do not think the pre '74 GC owner will be able to get it back and will have to accept compensation. If it was given back what happens to all the properties now on it? Do the current users lose and the GC owner gains a load of valuable property as well as his previously undeveloped land that is now developed at no cost to him/her? I don't think so.

Such a complicated issue but one which, as said earlier, both the GC and TC governments need to accept and shoulder the responsibility and subsequent burden for creating the property mess and not the purchasers who all followed the rules bought in good faith and paid all their fees and taxes.

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 6:25 am

I still believe that there is very little chance of the GCs voting 'yes' in the majority to any draft settlement plan drawn up by the two leaders. They have become too comfortable in their discomfort. The majority of GCs are not "refugees" from the intervention, nor do they have any property disputes, so there is little in it for them to vote 'yes'. The TC authorities know this and are negotiating in 'masked' good faith, that is, they are going through the motions, sticking to the notion of a BBF as previously agreed, but will drive as hard a bargain as they can. They wish to appear to have been the side making the most effort to reach a settlement, as they were in 2004. Any settlement would open the South to TCs and Turkish settlers and this terrifies the racists in the South.

So, all in all, stop worrying about. Life's too short.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 7:18 am

Don't understand how the settlement would open the South to the TC's - it is already open to them, they can work there and live there already? As for Turkish settlers, it is an EU country and is already open to any person from another NON-EU country provided that they can meet the requirements of the EU country they are moving to, if not then they have to leave anyway.
The reason that the GC's would vote yes is complex - let us just say that both the TC and the GC or Cypriots at heart and the many I have spoken with from both camps are of the same opinion, that it is long past time to put the past behind and just get on with life - nothing to be lost by either side to say yes.
As expats we tend to fixate on the property issue - pity we never showed the same concern when we originally bought on the cheap (lets tell the truth here) - but the issue of a settlement will not only revolve around what the concerns of the expats are, it is the interests of the owners of the Island that is at the heart of the matter and they are the GC/TC Cypriots.
Whatever the outcome of the current talks is we - as expats - will just have to put up with it or move along. The talks have been going on for nearly half a normal lifespan, if they are proven to be settled this next year I feel it has taken quite long enough and will be happy for the Cypriots of both sides. What will happen to us after that is all conjecture and not worth worrying over - the one thing to look at now if you are worried is the many EU Law URLS that are freely available on the Internet. For if a settlement occurs you can bank on the North being a full member of the EU (and all its laws and rules about straight bananas) in record time, the EU/UN can then pat itself on the back and preen all over the World News about how good a job it has done!

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 8:05 am

We didn't all buy on the cheap. Our donum and a quarter in Karsiyaka cost us £43K in 2005. Granted it was a piece of land we really wanted. On that we had a home built to our specs for more than most people pay for house and garden. Compared to UK and South Cyprus prices at the time it was very reasonable and we have been very happy. The land we bought was esdeger, had always been grazing land and was owned by the British until 1960 (so we understand), when Cyprus was granted independence. There had been four TC owners of the land since 1974, each of whom sold it on at a profit, I assume. Miraculously, when we received our final kocan (lucky us) they had all disappeared as if they had never existed, a bit like Kevin Spacey in 'The Usual Suspects'.

I would be happy to compensate the person who enjoyed the grazing rights for 14 years (what would be reasonable?). I know personally the last two owners of the land before me, maybe they would like to cough up too

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 9:05 am

Not saying that "Everyone" purchased in the TRNC "on the cheap", but property sales suddenly boomed as the prices became known. Spain grew too expensive - and dodgy - other places like in the RoC became to expensive and people do what people do. Either to buy to live or buy to make a profit. Look at it that way please - many bought to rent out and have a holiday home without thinking of the future - now the future is upon us all.

trooper · Post by **trooper** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 10:01 am

Really not sure about buying houses here on the cheap.....
People bought at market prices and the vendors very largely did very well out of it. Given the political uncertainty that has prevailed - surely we haven't all forgotten the Orams - I think people who parted with larghe sums of money for property here were rather brave.

buying cheaply is what the locals try to do. Just put your house on the market and see how many TC's view and offer ridiculously sums thinking the foreigns are desperate to get out.

We do seem to have gone slightly off topic now....nothing new there.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 10:22 am

trooper wrote:Really not sure about buying houses here on the cheap.....
People bought at market prices and the vendors very largely did very well out of it. Given the political uncertainty that has prevailed - surely we haven't all forgotten the Orams - I think people who parted with larghe sums of money for property here were rather brave.

buying cheaply is what the locals try to do. Just put your house on the market and see how many TC's view and offer ridiculously sums thinking the foreigns are desperate to get out.

We do seem to have gone slightly off topic now....nothing new there.

I agree,

I think it fair to say that prices paid by expats were somewhat more than locals were prepared to pay for a home, so 'on the cheap' - no. Given the build quality or lack of.....

Yes seemingly good value compared to inflated UK prices. UK prices that bear no resemblance to the cost of land and build plus a good profit. - You might as well compare all prices worldwide and compared to quite a few other locations they would seem expensive.....

erol · Post by **erol** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 10:26 am

trooper wrote:Really not sure about buying houses here on the cheap......

The market price of 'disputed' title property in the North was (and is) cheaper than the equivalent with 'non disputed' title. If my property changes 'overnight' from 'disputed' to 'non disputed' as a result of a settlement then it's value will also increase as a result.

Re where compensation for pre 74 owners or current users will come from, primarily it will come from the value of land 'given up' by TC in the south post 74. Then there will be value in land no longer used or needed to be used as military bases, north ans south, that can be used to fund compensation. Also the UK has agreed to give up large swathes of land from the SBA area's. Finally there will be the potential increase in value from land / property changing from 'disputed' to 'undisputed'. All and any of these could be used to fund compensation (monetary or alternate property).

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 10:34 am

If in the event of a unified solution the only thing that concerns me is that the North will be come a part of the EU ?
Now that does concern me.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 11:01 am

erol wrote:
trooper wrote:Really not sure about buying houses here on the cheap......
The market price of 'disputed' title property in the North was (and is) cheaper than the equivalent with 'non disputed' title. If my property changes 'overnight' from 'disputed' to 'non disputed' as a result of a settlement then it's value will also increase as a result.
.

Now you are talking about 'market prices' differential between 'Turkish title' and 'exchange title' - that was a con based on the perception that old title was safer - that's not the same as the price expats paid when local builders knew they were onto a good thing and inflated their charges to take account of what they perceived to be the 'Goose that lays the golden egg' and then decided that they would also pass on their tax liability and costs of laying on electricity and water to the buyer under threat of no deeds.... Prices shot up - even though the land value and build costs did not match the hike....

If the land was cheap the houses prices to the buyer did not reflect this saving - if a house can be built and sold at a profit for £70k and then jump to £100k in no time, Given the land might be artificially cheap to the developer - explain how it being disputed worked in favour of the buyer..... it worked in favour of the builder - yes.

I'm glad I never paid the builder for dodgy deeds, and I'm quite happy to compensate the previous owner of this scrub-land for the land at its realistic value.

Art · Post by **Art** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 11:11 am

Just a couple of questions.

1,What happens to the land or properties which are owned by builders or developers who are still refusing to hand over the kochan .Who would be legally responsible for paying out any compensation the occupants or the owners?

2,Given the current speculation what advice would you give to those who are just about to pay their purchase tax in order to receive their kochan.

Stick or Twist.?

Appreciating all this is speculative but would be interested to here any thoughts.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 11:37 am

Art wrote:Appreciating all this is speculative but would be interested to here any thoughts.

My advise would be that if you have the means to secure title in your name, even if that would still be a 'disputed' title, you should go ahead and do this. Whatever happens I think you would be in a better position doing so than not.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 11:45 am

Groucho wrote: Now you are talking about 'market prices' differential between 'Turkish title' and 'exchange title' -

All I am saying Groucho is my house that is built on 'disputed' title land is today worth X. What I think X actually is and what any potential buyer thinks it is is debatable and negotiable. However if the same property was built on pre 74 TC or international title land then its value today would be X + Y. If following a settlement the status of my title changes from 'disputed' to 'non disputed' then its value will increase by Y. As much as I would like Y to accrue to me personally following a solution, I can also accept that it may be necessary for that increase in value, Y, to not accrue to me personally but may need to accrue by some mechanism to a central fund used for compensation. If this were the case I would not feel 'cheated'.

guru · Post by **guru** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 12:34 pm

erol wrote:
Groucho wrote: Now you are talking about 'market prices' differential between 'Turkish title' and 'exchange title' -
All I am saying Groucho is my house that is built on 'disputed' title land is today worth X. What I think X actually is and what any potential buyer thinks it is is debatable and negotiable. However if the same property was built on pre 74 TC or international title land then its value today would be X + Y. If following a settlement the status of my title changes from 'disputed' to 'non disputed' then its value will increase by Y. As much as I would like Y to accrue to me personally following a solution, I can also accept that it may be necessary for that increase in value, Y, to not accrue to me personally but may need to accrue by some mechanism to a central fund used for compensation. If this were the case I would not feel 'cheated'.

Erol, if your title increases by 'Y', that's fair enough, but if you are not selling then who is going to pay 'Y' to go towards the compensation?

erol · Post by **erol** » Sun 09 Aug 2015 1:36 pm

guru wrote:Erol, if your title increases by 'Y', that's fair enough, but if you are not selling then who is going to pay 'Y' to go towards the compensation?

Well this is all speculation but one possible scenario as to how this could work would be as follows. Following a settlement a % figure is agreed for what Y is, lets say 25%. I will have the choice of paying that 25% of the current value of the property now or defer paying it to when the property gets sold (a kind of capital gains tax on the sale). If everyone chooses to defer payment then the state could borrow money now, against the future revenue from when such properties get sold, in order to fund compensation claims.

MoonageDaydream · Post by **MoonageDaydream** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 1:18 am

Why is it that Turkish Cypriot residents in the UK are referred to as 'immigrants,' whereas British residents in the TRNC are referred to as 'expats?'

Something that should be eplored in the context of this thread.....

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 5:01 am

MoonageDaydream wrote:Why is it that Turkish Cypriot residents in the UK are referred to as 'immigrants,' whereas British residents in the TRNC are referred to as 'expats?'

Something that should be eplored in the context of this thread.....

Maybe it's because the TRNC won't give us any status other than 'visitor'. So we are not allowed to feel like immigrants....

Seriously, I never quite understand why so many expats here moan about UK immigration whilst not seeing the irony...

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 6:42 am

I think the wording of the op is somewhat unfair, I don't think it can be questioned in as much "tc's" selling the expats down the river, it is the president Akinci, he is only interested in the tc's that didn't leave during the conflict, everyone else is a potential target for tax hikes.

Personally I think it is all going to end in tears again, but all we can do is wait and see.

If things do change, I think the tc's could regret voting Akinci in to power.

Erdogan is no fool, he will not allow Akinci to go too far, the old saying, "give a man a rope".

Art · Post by **Art** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 8:03 am

I'm very much inclined to agree.

The ex-pats are a small minority and an easy target.We have absolutely no influence in the government decision making.

As you say though" let's wait and see".

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 8:14 am

Art wrote:I'm very much inclined to agree.

The ex-pats are a small minority and an easy target.We have absolutely no influence in the government decision making.

As you say though" let's wait and see".

Therein lies the rub - although we have been an easy target up to now (i.e. many of the current TRNC laws and the interpretation of them, would be totally outlawed under EU statutes as being racially based and discriminatory) - with the advent of the EU and all its equality laws encompassing the right to domicile..... they will no longer be able to discriminate against any EU citizen in the way they currently do.

I don't think they've thought this through... do you?

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 9:15 am

One of the things that was mooted on c44 all that time ago was that the land would become lease hold
The property owner would pay an annual rent the period of the lease ??
The cost of the lease??
Just been through the exercise of extending a uk lease on a maisonette from 60+ to 150+ years cost nearly 5 figures but now no peppercorn rental
Guess what 60% of the cost was lease extension fee 40% solicitors surveyors and advisers
Keeps the local industry going so you can see the lawyers voting/lobbying for it

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Mon 10 Aug 2015 3:54 pm

wanderer wrote:One of the things that was mooted on c44 all that time ago was that the land would become lease hold

mooted on C44... I rest my case...

There never was a bigger rumour mill often populated by GC sympathisers who took every opportunity to try and undermine the north and confidence in the north - Remember Eric, Private Pike, Campbell Thomas?

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 8:32 am

Interesting statement in today's Cyprus Today.

President Akinci said.

"Our expat friends should not be concerned -there property rights will be safeguarded-No one will become the victim to this problem."

He then added,

"They have to understand that the land they are living on belongs to someone else.So the best way to resolve this is through compensation "

"Think this is called selling us down the river"

ardstrawray · Post by **ardstrawray** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 9:16 am

Leither wrote:YES

How right you are, been sold out on everything else, property, legal advice, residency, do I need to go on.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 9:42 am

Art wrote:Interesting statement in today's Cyprus Today.

President Akinci said.

"Our expat friends should not be concerned -there property rights will be safeguarded-No one will become the victim to this problem."

He then added,

"They have to understand that the land they are living on belongs to someone else.So the best way to resolve this is through compensation "

"Think this is called selling us down the river"

If you didn't think that at some stage you might have to compensate the former owner (less any equity from exchange for land in the south) then you should have thought harder....
I don't think it's selling us down the river - I do think we should have taken the protestations of previous administrations for what they were - spin!
The fact that with unification the north will become part of the EU in practice rather than in name only with full acquis communautaire will safeguard our rights to ownership and domicile without recourse to ethnicity, creed or colour...

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 10:10 am

Do you genuinely believe the Turkish Cypriot people will agree to pay the Greeks Cypriots compensation because I don't. I can see the Brits shelling out more money (in the form of another type of property tax) based on the value of their land or property.

Just my view having lived here for 8 years and realising we are looked up on as being cash cows.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 10:38 am

No real idea how this will all pan out and whether both sides will come to an agreement. Personally we would like things to remain as is....however not our decision. Not a great fan of the EU andfor the GC side to believe that there is no need for turkish forces to remain as the EU will guarantee and make safeguard is simply not going to happen. However; as others have pointed out EU law and regulation would be in force and therefore the rights to property, employment, residency etc would change dramatically and could be beneficial to non TC's whosemember countries are in the EU. As far as compensation is concerned, we understand our property is built on forestry commission land which presumeably fell under some govt dept pre 74....so if it came to it we would no doubt have to offer something for our small slice of this land.

Not getting to excited about it all, there are pros and cons to reunification and non reunification........will just watch and read with interest on how things develop.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 12:24 pm

Art wrote:Do you genuinely believe the Turkish Cypriot people will agree to pay the Greeks Cypriots compensation because I don't. I can see the Brits shelling out more money (in the form of another type of property tax) based on the value of their land or property.

Just my view having lived here for 8 years and realising we are looked up on as being cash cows.

Well the thing is under EU law this won't be allowed to happen.... They might want us to pay a lion's share but it can not be allowed to stand as it would clearly be racially biased

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 12:54 pm

Never forget that two of the three guarantor members are already members of the EU - then ask yourself what they have done about the situation in Cyprus and you will begin to understand just how much the TC's would trust the EU to keep them safe!

As for compensation in either direction from/to anybody - there never has been such a thing as a free lunch, maybe the bill is about to tendered!

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 1:30 pm

waddo wrote:Never forget that two of the three guarantor members are already members of the EU

Only one of them should be! Greece lied and cheated their way in - so no great store can be put in their compliance with anything EU. However, as much as we pretty much all hate the EU and its meddling ways one of the things you can not deny that is currently exercising many of the constituent members is the inability to stop the regulations from being forced upon them from Brussels...

In this case I can only see that all players will have to be treated equally... even if that means compensation being paid - it can not be based on ethnicity alone....

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 1:41 pm

I understand the point you are making Groucho but the reality is quite different.The compensation agreement could well apply to everyone but the expats will mainly be the ones paying it.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 2:03 pm

These figures from Wikipedia under Demographics of Cyprus - they include both North and South Cyprus and give the Largest foreign ethnic groups following the 2011 census.
Ethnic group % Inhabitants
Greeks (from Greece) 17.3 31,044
British 14.8 26,659
Russian 13.6 24,376
Filipinos 10.7 19,197
Romanian 4.8 8,663
Bulgarian 5.4 9,744
Sri Lankan 4.1 7,350
Vietnamese 4 7,102
Syrian 1.8 3,235
Ukrainian 1.7 3,023
Polish 1.6 2,951
Indian 1.6 2,955
Georgian 1.2 2,113
German 0.6 1,162
Other EU countries 4 7,035
Other non-EU countries 12 22,938

There appear to be a very large number of "ExPats" across the whole Island or are you thinking that it will only be the BRITISH who have to pay?

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 2:29 pm

Is it the heat getting to me and I am missing something - if it is for the whole Island why are there no Turks from Turkey?

It would also be interesting to know what proportion of the populations indigenous Cypriots from both communities represent, and also British Cypriots who have returned to the Island

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 2:42 pm

RR, you and me both! I rest on the old saying of Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics - lol. The figures on Wiki can slant both ways dependent on who reads them and what are classed as citizens or migrants or Non-EU or even "Others"!! One thing for sure is that all the GC's in the South were born in Cyprus and were land owners in 1974 and all the TC's in the North are mainland Turks who have been granted citizenship of the TRNC - for the sake of land ownership that is!!! Of course there is nobody in the South who owns land that belongs to the TC's - because they never owned any anyway - so the divide of ownership and as to who will get compensation for their family lands is already sorted out.

Its just a great guessing game and will be until it is all down on paper and signed for. Only then will anybody know if they own land, stole land, have land or have to pay for compensation. I am sure that when I was here between 1969 and 1972 I bought 25 donums of land in the centre of Limassol one night in a bar - or was it London Bridge?????????? Never mind, I will claim compensation anyway.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 3:57 pm

Art wrote:I understand the point you are making Groucho but the reality is quite different.The compensation agreement could well apply to everyone but the expats will mainly be the ones paying it.

I fail to comprehend you declaration of reality... we don't quite know how it will be phrased but you can be quite sure the EU will not be allowed to accept that disproportionate settlements are aimed at ethnic groups....

It would fall at the first hurdle if it needs to go to the ECHR...

Art · Post by **Art** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 4:55 pm

A good example of reality is Greece.

Many tax regulations have been passed by the Greek Parliament but very few Greeks pay them despite being in the EU.

And yes you are right at the moment it's all speculation.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 6:33 pm

Art wrote:A good example of reality is Greece.

now I know you are joking!

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sat 15 Aug 2015 7:51 pm

In English (and International?) law if one buy's land or property one "steps into the shoes" of the seller - ie he takes on any rights and obligations of the seller to the property. If an expat buys from a Turkish Cypriot "exchange" property (ie where the seller was granted the property in replacement on the points system for what he lost in the South) surely the expat has also bought the rights the Turkish Cypriot seller had to property in the South? Otherwise the Greek Cypriot would benefit twice : from the exchange property HE got in the South (which could well be more valuable) and compensation for his "lost" property in the NOrth. May be difficult to work of course as the original owners on either side may not be traceable - but I hope it is a factor being taken into account in the negotiation?

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