help needed with cadge dogs.

[Art]

The reason you can’t think of any circumstances where you would condone eating dog is because you were brought up in a society where the necessity never arose, some countries think eating Cow is abhorrent, should we go to these countries with our ‘we know best’ attitudes and tell them that their beliefs are wrong, and more to the point, what would the reaction be in the UK if a Hindu moved in next door and complained because his neighbours cows were being fenced in and they were not allowed the freedom or the status that they gave them in India, methinks he would be told where to go in no uncertain terms, why should we be any different? I was under the impression that most of the British long term visitors to TRNC were retiree’s however the more I read the Kibkom BB I realise that they haven’t retired at all, they are in fact missionaries, here to show the natives the errors of their way, and to try and change the island into a little Britain, that same place that they voluntarily left to have a more stress free life, you know, like them TRNC natives


Don't you think that by calling most of the expats "missionaries"is a little condescending and is without any substance.

Many expats get involved in charity work to help both animals and people who are in difficulty.They are not doing it
to educate the natives.They are caring considerate people who wish to make a difference and to help the less fortunate.They give their time freely and are dedicated to their cause.

Your comments are absolutely not true and are completely unfounded.

[bigbadbob]

Aitchie- reading the original posting I must see a different problem to you. My concerns, as are many others I think, is the fact that hs.mummy reported the dogs were being kept in a concrete shed/block in this intolerable heat that we are all trying to cope with and that they are never let out! The noise situation is not at the top of the list of concerns.
It is obvious to me that you enjoy a banter , as most of us do but this is just wasting precious time that could be spent in us all getting our heads together and pooling our knowledge, if any , which may help hs. mummy, her family and the poor caged dogs.
I think if hs. mummy would like any of us to support her or try and help - it may be best to just send pm's and then the topic will not be led 'up the garden path' again.

BBB's Other Half. (just trying to help).

[Aitchie]

Art
I say it as I see it, and no I don’t think I am being condescending. Help given when asked for is wonderful, help given when not asked for or wanted is interfering.
I have attended a few ‘charity doos’ put on by expats to help the locals, which is to be commended, but when the recipients themselves, or their peers do not turn up to support the effort I do wonder if the effort is really appreciated or indeed wanted by the subject people. As regards the stray dog situation in TRNC, they are a nuisance, a health risk to others, and god help the island if any rougue diseases like rabies ever gets here, I say if they don’t have a home do the decent thing and have them humanely put down.

[Ragged Robin]

BBB’s other half
Your motives are commendable, and as such I do not question them, however the ‘mission’ you have set yourself will be to inflict your beliefs on another from a different culture in order to ‘show them the way’ whether it be to enlightenment or not is for you to know. One thing that strikes me as odd regarding the original posting is that the sleep deprivation problem has only arisen over a 5 night period, I take it that all was well up to this point, so what changed in the 5 day period that caused these dogs to have changed their habits. I for one can sympathise with the poster being kept awake by the barking of these dogs, however if the local police and authorities don’t want involved there is very little anybody can do without putting themselves at risk of prosecution by interfering unlawfully with another person’s property. Would you risk having your ‘long term visitors visa’ taken away from you in order to save these dogs?

Excellent post Aitchie and good points, but I do not see where the 5 days comes in - or am I missing something?? First post was in July and mentions the heat so maybe open windows a factor.? Someone suggested roadworks disturbed the dogs - but the main problem seems to be at night. Barking dogs at night (even companion dogs with a comfortable home) are mostoften started off by being teased by stray cats( which in turn are attracted by misguided people feeding them in residential areas) and are a great problem for responsible dog owners. But there seems nothing can be done about that anyway, although KAR advise against feeding any stray in residential areas.

It is difficult to advise Hsmummy without a lot more detail about the circumstances of the afflicted family and the dog owner (and I dont advise such personal details being put on open forum.) but as her main concern seems to be people, particularly children, might think about approaching Environment Health , who would not be so involved in villlage life but I emphsise here is still a riskof causing further antagonism!!!!!! However as I pointed out in an earlier post a lot of people are living with stressful nightly noise disturbance and have no recourse other than moving, which might to jumping from frying pot into fire. Citizen Advice (near Turk Bank in Catalkoy) might be able to clarify to legal situation and even offer translation services to negotiate with the dog "owner" but they charge an annual"membership " fee plus expenses.

[Aitchie]

RR
‘This is the 5th night in a row that they have been woken up by all the barking and howling’
This is the reference to the 5 nights that I mentioned, it isn’t clear whether there were problems before hand, or was it a temporary predicament that caused the noise. I completely agree with your post there are details missing that may shed more light on the issue, but if those in authority do not/cannot do anything about it, it just might be the case that there is nothing anybody can do due to unknown circumstances. I think that it is easy to jump the gun in these circumstances and start pointing fingers, but I certainly would not encourage taking matters into one’s own hands to deal with the neighbour, we expats after all are only visitors to this fair and wonderful land!

[Ragged Robin]

Sorry Aitchie Sorry, I thought I had missed something - put it down to speed reading and the heat! - and I see your point. There are just too many unknown factors and too many assumptions on insufficient evidence. There are so many theories one could produce - for instance the dogs were moved under concrete because their previous "quarters" had no shade, but without facts it is pointless.

I totally agree about "non interference" and it is upsetting that expats are being criticized for not doings so. The problem with people with a "mission" is they may have the best of intentions but they get blinkered and do not realize that others may have equally beneficial priorites and/or may not be as lucky as them in their resources of health, strength, time or money to support charitable causes. Or indeed that their no doubt well meant efforts to help one species may have side effects which damage others.

It is not as if there aren't plenty of suffering stray dogs that no one lays claim to, and everyone would be glad to see helped!

[Art]

Sorry Aitchie Sorry, I thought I had missed something - put it down to speed reading and the heat! - and I see your point. There are just too many unknown factors and too many assumptions on insufficient evidence. There are so many theories one could produce - for instance the dogs were moved under concrete because their previous "quarters" had no shade, but without facts it is pointless.

I totally agree about "non interference" and it is upsetting that expats are being criticized for not doings so. The problem with people with a "mission" is they may have the best of intentions but they get blinkered and do not realize that others may have equally beneficial priorites and/or may not be as lucky as them in their resources of health, strength, time or money to support charitable causes. Or indeed that their no doubt well meant efforts to help one species may have side effects which damage others.

It is not as if there aren't plenty of suffering stray dogs that no one lays claim to, and everyone would be glad to see helped!

If these unfortunate dogs are suffering (I agree this has to be established first) they need help and "non interference" to those who care about animals would never be an option.Does anyone have an update on the welfare of the dogs please?

[hs.mummy]

the dogs are still there, howling and barking most of the night. it dose seem like the ownser takes food and water in a few times a day as the dog seems to get excited when he dose. i this it is the human contact more then the food. i wish we could do more, but the owner dose not think he is doing anything wrong.

[Hippocampus]

Aitchie, you seem to be missing the point in your defensive attitude towards the Brits. Most educated and decent people understand the word "humane", and consider that any living creature, whether it gets eaten or not, deserves to be treated with respect whilst it is still alive and slaughtered with the minimum of stress. This includes caring for any animal in a manner which at least satisfies it's basic needs, including psychological ones. It is a basic morality.

Ask yourself, if you lived in parts of the Far East, would you be comfortable with the sexual exploitation of young children just because it has always been their culture? Or be happy to buy a couple of black slaves because that was normal in some places? Stone a woman to death? If nobody had ever acknowledged that inhumane behaviour is undesirable, where would the world be now?

[erol]

Aitchie, you seem to be missing the point in your defensive attitude towards the Brits. Most educated and decent people understand the word "humane", and consider that any living creature, whether it gets eaten or not, deserves to be treated with respect whilst it is still alive and slaughtered with the minimum of stress. This includes caring for any animal in a manner which at least satisfies it's basic needs, including psychological ones. It is a basic morality.

http://www.viva.org.uk/what-we-do/cruel ... tory-farms

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIG ... /intro.htm

http://www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk ... ry-farming

By all accounts these dogs are being provided with shelter and food and water. You can argue that their "psychological" needs are not being met and this amounts to cruelty. However this is hardly a 'black and white' argument. Certainly not comparable to arguing that sexual exploitation of children is cruelty. It would actually be closer to arguing that a father who rarely interacts with his children and never praises them and only criticises them is "psychological cruelty". So what should be done in these situations (either these dogs or the hypothetical example I give) ? Should the dogs or children be removed by the state to protect them from such 'cruelty' ? Is that what we are saying here ?

[Hippocampus]

Not necessarily, each case has it's degrees of cruelty. I just meant to say that whatever the case may be, people with a conscience cannot be criticised for speaking up, wherever they may be, how long they have been there or wherever they grew up, if an inhumane situation exists. I admire such people, often they are much braver than I.

On the subject of this thread, surely depriving a dog of sufficient activity and mobility is indeed cruel?

[Aitchie]

Hippocampus
I don’t have to be living in the far east to be close to young children being exploited for sexual gratification, there’s enough of that goes on in the UK for anyone that’s interested in that kind of perversion, and wasn’t it on a UK street that a young military guy was beheaded whilst minding his own business, have you stopped reading the UK press since you came to Cyprus?

[Hippocampus]

Cruelty of one kind or another exists all over the globe, but it is not "the culture" but crimes by committed by individuals in most cases. Why are you so anti British?

[Aitchie]

Hippocampus
I look upon myself as being 'realistic British', not anti. The British empire have been interfering in other cultures and Countries since time immemorial, and have left a right royal mess when they were done with them, you don’t have to look far to see a fine example of that. Interfering is a British pastime, and that won’t be changing any time soon. But just to set the record straight; I am British and proud of it, but I certainly do not hide from what is plain to see.

[Hippocampus]

They also did a lot of good. Were the Turks wrong to interfere here in'74? It wasn't their country, after all, they could also have taken the attitude "that is Cyprus".

Where ever there is something morally and ethically wrong, somebody needs to shout about it, otherwise we would all still be savages. It is nothing to do with race, nationality, culture or corner of the earth, but with the general instinct of mankind to improve respect between members of our own species and others.

[Aitchie]

The Turks should not have been put in the situation of having to interfere here in 74, the reason they had to was that Britain, as a fellow guarantor country, had washed it’s hands of the problem, a problem that they had a hand in making during their custodial time on the island. Fact or fiction?

[erol]

Where ever there is something morally and ethically wrong, somebody needs to shout about it, otherwise we would all still be savages. It is nothing to do with race, nationality, culture or corner of the earth, but with the general instinct of mankind to improve respect between members of our own species and others.

Hippocampus if you want me to 'shout' about the moral and ethical wrongness of sexual exploitation of young children, or modern day slavery, or people being stoned to death (of any gender) or indeed "millions of male chicks are gassed or thrown alive into electric mincers because they are the wrong sex to lay eggs." (from the links I gave about factory farming in the UK) - then I am with you and am more than willing to 'shout' about these things, regardless of race, nationality or culture. However when you want me to 'shout' about the moral and ethical wrongness of someone who we are told provides shelter and food and water for their dogs but possibly does not provide them with 'sufficient activity and mobility' without me knowing if or how frequently they do provide this, if at all, then I am afraid I am not 'with you'. It is indeed a matter of degree. From what information I have from this thread it is far from clear to me that these dogs are suffering a degree of cruelty that is so obviously morally and ethically wrong that it demands to be 'shouted about'.

[Hippocampus]

Indeed, Erol. I totally agree with you. On the other hand, I find it admirable that people like BBB are prepared to investigate a report of suspected insatisfactory animal husbandry because they care, although this may be a triviality compared to what is happening across the globe. We can all attempt to change things on our own doorsteps, even if we are individually powerless to tackle the big issues. I still believe in human goodness, despite what is happening in the world, and find it depressing when folk are criticised for trying to do what they can in a small way.

[bigbadbob]

Hippocampus - From the man himself and me, his other half - Thank you.

We will continue, as some may accuse us of ''Interfering'' because we have the solid proof of knowing and seeing from time to time, the animals we have helped here, living a life filled with love and kindness. Not forgetting Happiness!
Maybe that is the word that some of the posters no longer are party to in their lives here and that is why they seem to always have a go because they have nothing else to fulfill them.
I apologise again to hs. mummy as her original post reaching out for help has been taken over by others wanting to get on their soap boxes and totally go off post for their own personal grievance's or just because they have nothing else in their lives.
I can only suggest to them and they will know who they are, instead of criticising and calling people who do care names, look around you and see where and what you can give back to the community you are living in.
If there is a wrong have the bottle to do something about it, if someone or something needs help get off your butts and give the help that is needed! It is not about what any individual has or what their worth is, it is about giving of yourself and your time. Anyone can give those! This would be applicable to any village, town or country.
Don't think I can say anymore really other than I sincerely hope that the animals in question are NOT being treated cruelly and do have a quality of life - because I and the man himself DO care. Please hms. mummy pm us if you need to or want to.

[erol]

We will continue, as some may accuse us of ''Interfering'' because we have the solid proof of knowing and seeing from time to time, the animals we have helped here, living a life filled with love and kindness. Not forgetting Happiness!

Have these animals you have helped here in the past been ones that were owned and you rescued them from 'cruel' owners against the wishes of those owners ? I ask because it seems that this would be the only option to 'save' the animals in this specific case. Doing what you can to alleviate suffering of animals and offer them a better life or chance of a better life is commendable. I commend you for such efforts. You are not alone in such efforts and I, mainly through my other half it has to be said, have done so ourselves on numerous occasions, consistently over many years. Despite this it still remains unclear to me to what degree that these specific animals are suffering and what is even more unclear to me is what can actually be realistically done to help them if they are.

Maybe that is the word that some of the posters no longer are party to in their lives here and that is why they seem to always have a go because they have nothing else to fulfill them.

That seems a bit unnecessarily harsh and personal to me.

I apologise again to hs. mummy as her original post reaching out for help has been taken over by others wanting to get on their soap boxes and totally go off post for their own personal grievance's or just because they have nothing else in their lives.

As I see it if anyone has taken over this post, it is those that have made about ending some kind of intolerable suffering of these animals, that is far from clear they are even suffering in the first place. The original post as I read and understood it was principally about the difficulty of having to live next to loud animals such as these with a young family and what, if anything, could be done to help that situation.

I can only suggest to them and they will know who they are, instead of criticising and calling people who do care names, look around you and see where and what you can give back to the community you are living in.

Maybe I am being over sensitive here but I do not actually know 'who they are'. I have not called anyone names in this thread. I have questioned to what degree these animals actually are suffering because that is far from clear to me. I have also questioned the degree to which the original poster seems to have 'badger' by some in this thread. I have questioned if there is anything more than has already been tried to practically help the OP or the dogs in questions should they actually need it. So am I one of these people 'who knows who they are' ? Maybe not but it is I am afraid not clear to me from the above if you think I am or not.

If there is a wrong have the bottle to do something about it, if someone or something needs help get off your butts and give the help that is needed! It is not about what any individual has or what their worth is, it is about giving of yourself and your time. Anyone can give those! This would be applicable to any village, town or country.

All well and fine but its far from clear what or what degree of 'wrong' there actually is here, to me at least. Even if it is established that these animals are suffering horribly , just what exactly do you expect others to 'get off their butts' and do ? Few people have given more of themselves and their time to help animals in north Cyprus than my other half, over many years now.

Don't think I can say anymore really other than I sincerely hope that the animals in question are NOT being treated cruelly and do have a quality of life - because I and the man himself DO care. Please hms. mummy pm us if you need to or want to.

If these animals are suffering then I for one do care but it remains unclear to me that they are suffering and if they are to what degree as it remains unclear to me what more can be done to help end that suffering ?

[Soner]

Dogs caged up in Cyprus for 10 - 11 months of the year has been going on for hundreds of years. These dogs are "used" (exercised) during hunting season - this is the norm here and possibly still in some places in the South. You all speak of this one incident, why not visit other villages outside of Girne - you will be horrified by the numbers of dogs caged outside in extreme heat etc... There is no way you can change things here overnight but you can slowly educate to make changes for the future, as KAR have done by taking pets into primary schools and showing the children how to care for their animals. Or, as my cousin does by walking his dog on a lead in the village two to three times a day to encourage locals to do the same with their pets - more and more people in our village are now doing this with their pets, be it exercise for themselves or for their pet - it's all positive.

There is no point in going to the police or Muhtar complaining about caged dogs barking - it is still the way of life here with the locals.

Rome was not built in a day, so walk your dogs on lead in as many villages as possible and you may start up a trend that may help to make change.

I am moving this post to appropriate section. Sorry, but this thread has gone on for quite a while and I have been off the forum for some time now due to other issues. Continue to contribute should you wish to.