Turkish Cypriots complain of property harassment by Greek

[doctor59]

As we are all aware, I am sure the wonderful United Nations and the EU will find a just and viable solution.
Ha Ha as if they would.

DO AS I SAY......NOT AS I DO.!!!

Fact 1967 Arab- Israeli 6 day war, Israel captures East Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza Strip and The Golan Heights.Return of The West Bank and Gaza Strip, however The Golan Heights and East Jerusalem added to
the Sovereign nation of Israel. United Nations Security Council specified an illegal act, Further illegal building on Palestinian land ...EMBARGOED Yeah right Sonny, DIRECT FLIGHTS 8 days a week if you need them.

Alas me thinks that what the Greek/Turkish Cypriots want is of no importance to the major players who have used Cyprus for their own agenda since the turn of the 20th century.

[Groucho]

Alas me thinks that what the Greek/Turkish Cypriots want is of no importance to the major players who have used Cyprus for their own agenda since the turn of the 20th century.

Luckily the major players are not the ones who will decide - Hopefully it will be Cypriots - and we must have hope too.

[JBA]

Everybody seems to agree that at least some land will be restored to the South as part of any settlement. I wonder what will happen to anybody who finds themselves with a house on land that is returned - I doubt they will be treated the same as those whose houses remain in the North. The South have some pretty tough laws about 'stolen' property and presumably they will be free to prosecute as they wish.

[tomsteel]

JBA, who will be prosecuted? The TRNC Government for sanctioning sales with charges being applied to all involved, the 'landowner' making the sale, the developer, builder, estate agent, advocate, purchaser or all of them? Can you just imagine the legal minefield to follow with claim, counter-claim, judgement (where), appeal, counter-appeal, high court, supreme court, ECHR, costs etc? Perhaps the 1st surrender, and that's what it will be, of land should be Turkish military, or TRNC Government departments, or casinos, night clubs, hotels etc before the 'pond-life' individual?

[WotNoDeeds]

More news on the property issue in "Daily Sabah"
http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2015 ... -on-cyprus

[jacob]

I have decided not to buy again until all this is settled. It is not looking too good at the moment.....................I am wondering why Erdogan is not getting involved in these talks. Do the GCs really think the Turkish troops will leave!!

[Art]

More news on the property issue in "Daily Sabah"
http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2015 ... -on-cyprus

Based on the final outcome of the Orams case this is not looking good for expats who I'm sure will be treated differently during the legal process.

This news in my view is very concerning.

[jacob]

Exactly right, this is all extremely worrying, if you have Kocan, does it mean anything if it's a house built GC land, if you do not have a Kocan, basically you are real trouble.

Why aren't the BRS doing more to clarify, I feel sorry for all those with property there.

I regretted selling my house, now I am bloody glad I did.

[Groucho]

More news on the property issue in "Daily Sabah"
http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2015 ... -on-cyprus

Based on the final outcome of the Orams case this is not looking good for expats who I'm sure will be treated differently during the legal process.

This news in my view is very concerning.

Art

The relevant codicil and the one that should give comfort is... "If citizens are not satisfied with the decisions issued by the court, they will have the right to litigate before the European Court of Human Rights."

We are EU citizens - so a referral to the ECHR will guarantee your rights to fair treatment. What is fair? Fair is that we are not treated any differently to any anyone else who has bought on the grounds of our ethnicity - i.e. not being Cypriot should not preclude our rights.... No ECHR court will stand for that.

[jacob]

The Orams are proof that that is not the case. You are in an unrecognised country.

[TRNCVaughan]

We may be an "unrecognised" country now, but we are in the EU, as far as the EU is concerned.

[Art]

More news on the property issue in "Daily Sabah"
http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2015 ... -on-cyprus

Based on the final outcome of the Orams case this is not looking good for expats who I'm sure will be treated differently during the legal process.

This news in my view is very concerning.

Art

The relevant codicil and the one that should give comfort is... "If citizens are not satisfied with the decisions issued by the court, they will have the right to litigate before the European Court of Human Rights."

We are EU citizens - so a referral to the ECHR will guarantee your rights to fair treatment. What is fair? Fair is that we are not treated any differently to any anyone else who has bought on the grounds of our ethnicity - i.e. not being Cypriot should not preclude our rights.... No ECHR court will stand for that.

I maybe wrong about this but I thought the Orams lost their appeal through the ECHR.?

I think expats will be treated fairly through the legal process but getting fair judgement will be another matter and who's going to pay for any litigation.?

Sorry Groucho I just don't share your faith .

[wanderer]

ECHR Orams case was before ECHR ruled that the local solution provided by the IPC was the way forward and the only solution
So Orams lost and could not use the IPC as it the ECHR ruling re IPC predated
All cases after the IPC came into force keep you out of the GC courts
Also UN have said the rights of the current users must be viewed above the owners of 40 years plus ago

[the butlers wife]

I agree with you wanderer, the Orams case was before the IPC was set up and the ECHR agreed that the IPC was the first port of call
for any greek cypriot who was seeking compensation for land in the north.



The butlers wife

[erol]

Just to be clear the ECHR is NOT an organ of the European Union. It is not an EU court. It is an organ of the Council of Europe - an entirely different body to the EU and one that Turkey is a member of and signatory to and that predates the creation of the EU and the EEC before it. The ECHR deals only with violations of an individuals human rights by a state that is a member of the Council of Europe. It really is nothing to do with the EU. The Orams case was never presented to or heard at the ECHR. It was a case that was heard and ruled on within the RoC only. The UK and the the European Court of Justice (which is an organ of the EU) then made a rulings as to if such a case heard in the RoC could be enforced against assets held in another EU member state (in this case the UK). Neither the UK courts, nor the European Court of Justice made any determination on the merits of the original RoC case, they only determined if such a ruling could be enforced against assets in another member state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

[jacob]

TRNC Vaughan. if you are already in the EU. why do you not get direct flights and why do you have to cross the border to go South

I really think you have a rude awakening heading your way, not just you but all expats if this kiss and make up goes all the way.

[tomsteel]

Msg 61 - the UK Government argues that the TRNC and Turkey are NOT in the EU, hence their refusal to offer NHS treatment to non-resident UK citizens living in either location and their refusal to offer reciprocal treatment via the RoC health care system.
Msg 66 - according to the RoC Government, there is no border, it is a crossing.

[jacob]

Border/Crossing... whatever, it amounts to the same thing, TRNC is not in EU

[tomsteel]

jacob, d'accord.

[Art]

I agree Tom,

Interestingly what happened to the promise to connect the telecommunications in the South to the North and are the BRS still waiting to receive a reply from the new President ?

Actions speak louder than words.

[tomsteel]

Art, agreed. I think hell will have frozen over before the BRS receive even an acknowledgement of their request for clarification, let alone a detailed and specific answer. Communication links - it is rocket science, or possibly, we do not give a fig!

[waddo]

jacob, if you wish to be pedantic then the TRNC is not in the EU because there is no such thing as the TRNC - it is simply "occupied territory. However, Cyprus - that is the whole Island - is in the EU. The major difference is that nobody in the TRNC told any lies to get into the EU, only the RoC lied about their finances and "BLAGGED" their way into the EU. Even the EU Governing Body said that Cyprus should never have been allowed into the EU and that a mistake had been made by allowing it in. Now, what will happen if the TRNC (by any other name) is recognized? Will that mean that the whole of Cyprus will have to apply again because part of it is in and part of it is out. Maybe there will be a rude awakening on both halves of the Island which would be fun for the TRNC as it has had more than 40 years of learning how to live without any support from (apart from Turkey) anyone else. Should the RoC also have to reapply for membership who would help them in the meantime? Greece - lol.

And Hell will have melted again before the BRS publish any reply from the Government.

[tomsteel]

waddo, spot on!

[Art]

Can't really blame the BRS for trying but I guess the outcome was always predictable and this is what concerns me about the treatment of expats.

Sometime ago the BRS discussed the property issue with the government giving hope to many expats and indeed the locals.

To date nothing has changed.

[waddo]

Maybe this will clear up the question re BRS:

Cyprus Today, August 29 - "Day by Day quote : "They have to understand that the land they are living on BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE" (pardon?). They were uttered by His Excellency President Akinci, in response to a letter about the Cyprus talks he had received from the British Residents Society (BRS) and questions from Cyprus Today.

So there is the answer??????????

[jacob]

I think that is extremely worrying. It's a pity noone said that when expats were buying houses, paying VAT and other fees.

[paul90]

Waddo
Just to clarify:
The 2005 referendum asked:
"Do you approve the Foundation Agreement with all its Annexes, as well as the constitution of the Greek Cypriot/Turkish Cypriot State and the provisions as to the laws to be in force, to bring into being a new state of affairs in which Cyprus joins the European Union united?"

Aftermath of the voting of the 2005 referendum:
The European Union had been counting on approval of the Annan Plan so that Cyprus would join it as a united island, and expressed disappointment at the Greek Cypriot rejection of the Plan. It had already agreed that the Republic of Cyprus would become a member regardless of the result of the referendum, and so on May 1, 2004, Cyprus joined the European Union together with nine other countries.

With regard to the Turkish Cypriots the European Union stated the following:


"The whole of the island is in the EU. However, in the northern part of the island, in the areas in which the Government of Cyprus does not exercise effective control, EU legislation is suspended in line with Protocol 10 of the Accession Treaty 2003.[7] The situation will change once a Cyprus settlement enters into force and it will then be possible for EU rules to apply over the whole of the island. However, the suspension does not affect the personal rights of Turkish Cypriots as EU citizens. They are citizens of a Member State, the Republic of Cyprus, even though they may live in the northern part of Cyprus, the areas not under government control."

Had the plan been ratified by both sides, Cyprus would have entered the EU as the United Cyprus Republic.

[waddo]

Paul90, Excellent information!!!! In particular your second to last para, which clearly shows that the whole Island is in the EU - as it stands at this time. Can I now ask what you consider will happen should the settlement happen, with regard to the Northern part of Cyprus? I ask as when Scotland took its vote to break away from Great Britain it was known that should it succeed then it would have to re-apply to join the EU. Should the Northern part of Cyprus now become recognized will it not have to suffer the same fate?

[Groucho]

Maybe this will clear up the question re BRS:

Cyprus Today, August 29 - "Day by Day quote : "They have to understand that the land they are living on BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE" (pardon?). They were uttered by His Excellency President Akinci, in response to a letter about the Cyprus talks he had received from the British Residents Society (BRS) and questions from Cyprus Today.

So there is the answer??????????

It's not the answer - it is a clue as to the likely course of events to come - if you live in a property that was erstwhile the home of a GC then in all likelihood some form of compensation will need to be made to the former occupier - However this is given that they will relinquish their rights to former TC land/property in the south... therein lies the rub! Do they want to?

If they were relocated/displaced in 1974 and now occupy a property formally owned by a TC in the south and they don't want to give that up - can they in all honestly claim ownership of a second property in the north? Only a kangaroo court is going to give them back a former GC property of equal value in the north if they also want to hold on to the TC property in the south....

They are not claiming that TC properties are not occupied by GC's They are saying only that they never gave them deeds to them... ah but do they now want deeds to them or compensation for the former home in the north? Either way they can't have both.....

Their own President has admitted the realities of this situation... of course there are those on both sides who don't like the sound of this - but how else can there be unification?