KAR

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 10:53 am

Would someone please explain the point of KAR's raison d'etre, if they are no longer subsidising the neutering or helping the strays etc etc.

What are they fundraising for. I thought it was to help.

ardstrawray · Post by **ardstrawray** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 11:45 am

Whatever your reasoning,it would be best if you left KAR alone, they do much more than neuter strays, if you do not want to contribute to them up to you.

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 12:07 pm

Jacob ! I suggest you think about the number of dogs, puppies, cats and kittens that are being cared for at this very moment in time by KAR, at their Buffavento Shelter. The animals know this as Home !. Maybe Sophie can give us the exact number?
Obviously fundraising has to be done just for food and water for all of these poor souls, never mind Vets Bills, medication, bedding, etc:
KAR's job will never end on this Island because there are always going to be animals that need help and care.
Better go and give my five furry hooligans their lunch now before they decide to leave home !

BBB's other half.

Cally · Post by **Cally** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 1:18 pm

Well said BBB's other half & I'm quite sure your 5 furry hooligans will never leave home

ps I think I read somewhere there are 300 plus hungry mouths to feed, water & clean out

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 2:35 pm

Nonetheless it was a reasonable question. I KAR are no longer treating and neutering stray dogs (and I have yet to see the legislation which prevents this).. they must be saving money. There are plenty of other ways in which they can use it for the benefit of animals, but if they want the public to support them and contribute they should explain what they are. Could it not for instance be used to increase the number of cats neutered. AS someone said in the other thread cats cant be contained and controlled as dogs can, and a decrease in the number of strays (particularly entire males) in residential areas would among other things reduce the complaints about barking dogs.

I have never been happy about kennels as a long term solution for strays and in mho the time is long overdue for more to be done to help and encourage the people who make considerable sacrifices to give these poor creatures a proper home.

sally4670 · Post by **sally4670** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 3:13 pm

if this is about the recent posts/facebook/email and news paper report --- i read it that they were not collecting adult dogs for neutering as they cannot put them back on the street after they have recovered because the councils are going to have to collect all stray dogs in there area (as per the law now) and put them in their own pounds including any that KAR have neutered . This is because the law now says that there must not be un owned dogs on the streets. So KAR cannot put them back on the streets and they cannot keep them at thier own centre for ever more - they are already full. It is, from what i hear, the councils responsibility to now also neuter them once they have collected them.
KAR said they are still going to neuter cats and still help injured dogs, sick dogs , and puppies.
I think it is disgusting that there is not more financial incentives given by the authorities for KAR, individuals and other groups to help with vet costs etc for stray animals.
It doesn't matter what KAR do they will never be able to help all of the animals that need helping nor will they be able to please everybody.

Maybe this new law will force the authorities here to do something instead of relying on KAR and other individuals and groups dealing with the problem for them and paying towards to help the situation instead of relying on other people funding it by way of fundraising, donations etc !!!.
I really hope that they will care for the dogs that they round up as well as KAR do and in a way that we would all want - i have my own doubts about that though ! What will happen to all the collected council dogs when the council pound is full ? What conditions will they be kept in ? There will be many worries i think.

ardstrawray · Post by **ardstrawray** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 3:21 pm

Sad to say, looking at the appalling state of animal welfare in TRNC. I cannot see too many dogs kept for too long by the council, form your own opinion.

woodspeckie · Post by **woodspeckie** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 3:44 pm

ardstrawray wrote:Sad to say, looking at the appalling state of animal welfare in TRNC. I cannot see too many dogs kept for too long by the council, form your own opinion.

Exactly, and what will happen to the lovely dogs on the high street near the round tower, they don't give any hassle, well fed and watered these could be rounded up by the Council, Jacob should be asking the Council questions not KAR.

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 4:25 pm

Jacob, read properly the report in the press before you start slinging mud around. One of the senior members of the Girne Belediye council said quite categorically that KAR had done more for the health and welfare of cats and dogs in the TRNC than any single organisation. RR, just because you don't know about the Government legislation, doesn't mean they don't exist. I suggest you go on to the Government Web site, and work it out for yourself. Its states quite clearly that local Belediye are RESPONSIBLE for the stray dogs in their own area. NOT charities. KAR will continue to help with pups, "WHICH AS YOU ARE AWARE BECOME FULL GROWN DOGS - THEY DON'T REMAIN PUPPIES" Jacob, if you refrain from contributing to KAR, that's you personal choice, but I confirm that there are in excess of 353 adult dogs and 57 puppies PLUS 34 adult cats and 17 kittens at the moment at the centre. So Jacob if you don't feel like contributing, then don't, and if you have any problems with a unwanted stray dogs in and around your property, don't complain to KAR, contact your local Belediye, it is their responsibility.

butterfly · Post by **butterfly** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 7:22 pm

Well said Sophie. When as a registered charity, you achieve so much, people forget that strays are actually the responsiblilty of the village councils. As often is the case, you are a victim of your own success. I truly hope that the dogs and cats you currently have are found homes and are kept safe. The vulnerable will still be cared for and hopefully rehomed. Long may your hard work continue.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Sun 25 Oct 2015 8:03 pm

If I knew where to find it I would already have read the law and been able to form my own view instead of others opinions and prejudices! I think it would be in the public interest if someone who has access to it could post it here - after all a lot of us are already caring for dogs and need to know exactly what is expected of us and what could happen. Of course responsible carers do not let the animals they take on strays, but with the best will in the world accidents happen and a dog "escapes" or slips a collar, and goes walkabout!

I do not think financial incentives to adopt animals are feasible, but it would help if they stopped putting disincentives and if neutered dogs could be registered free of charge. And the microchipping system which was supported by KAR was a total waste of the money for people who were already struggling with increased Vets fees etc.

Maisiemoo · Post by **Maisiemoo** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 1:20 am

Surely the point of micro-chipping is that if a dog does escape and is picked up by the council it can be scanned and reunited with the owner. With no chip it would presumably be put in a pound with heaven knows what result. Micro-chipping is compulsory in many countries now but a lot of charities do it for free, only asking for a donation if the owner can afford it.

snd1966 · Post by **snd1966** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 5:44 am

As I have said in a previous post KAR has been brilliant to the cats in the street where I live. I am just very glad the majority of my stays and others are over 10 years old and hope they will not pick up poison when it will be laid by the person who is just fed up with the noise and smell of multiplying cats.
I feel anyone who cares is hitting their head against a wall, OK the municipalities are taking charge but where are the shelters? surely all these should be in place before passing laws.
If my 3 dogs escaped yes they are chipped but not socialised, we never wanted 2 but have kept them secure for over 10 years, walked in the mountains to stop them bothering others so I doubt anyone could catch them as they would act like street dogs. I am sure KAR can confirm the patience required to catch street dogs but has this been taken into consideration with who they employ especially when dogs here seem to have an in built fear of certain people.

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 8:32 am

sophie wrote:Jacob, read properly the report in the press before you start slinging mud around. One of the senior members of the Girne Belediye council said quite categorically that KAR had done more for the health and welfare of cats and dogs in the TRNC than any single organisation. RR, just because you don't know about the Government legislation, doesn't mean they don't exist. I suggest you go on to the Government Web site, and work it out for yourself. Its states quite clearly that local Belediye are RESPONSIBLE for the stray dogs in their own area. NOT charities. KAR will continue to help with pups, "WHICH AS YOU ARE AWARE BECOME FULL GROWN DOGS - THEY DON'T REMAIN PUPPIES" Jacob, if you refrain from contributing to KAR, that's you personal choice, but I confirm that there are in excess of 353 adult dogs and 57 puppies PLUS 34 adult cats and 17 kittens at the moment at the centre. So Jacob if you don't feel like contributing, then don't, and if you have any problems with a unwanted stray dogs in and around your property, don't complain to KAR, contact your local Belediye, it is their responsibility.

Erm, excuse me lady but where have I been slinging mud around, my eye sight is quite good so you really do not need to score points with capitals, neither do I suffer from any hearing problems, so stop shouting.

Whether I support KAR or not is frankly none of your business either!

jimm127 · Post by **jimm127** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 8:53 am

Might I remind everybody that a forum is a place where people voice their opinions. These are their personal views and although you may not agree with them, you must respect their right to have them.

FORUM RULES
Be Polite. Rudeness will not be tolerated. You may challenge others' points of
view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully without insult and
personal attack. Any member being intentionally unpleasant or disruptive will be
banned without warning.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 3:32 pm

Maisiemoo wrote:Surely the point of micro-chipping is that if a dog does escape and is picked up by the council it can be scanned and reunited with the owner. With no chip it would presumably be put in a pound with heaven knows what result. Micro-chipping is compulsory in many countries now but a lot of charities do it for free, only asking for a donation if the owner can afford it.

0
If the Local Authorities had the equipment, the training and the will to read microchips that would be OK, Maisiemoo - but as I understand it, not only do few, if any, of the Belediye here have the equipment but there are two systems currently running in the TRNC one of which is for the authorities and one for the Vets! So if you lose a dog your only hope is that it is found by someone responsible able and willing to get it to a Vet for reading the chip. So it is just yet another burden for those already struggling with the cost of dog care. And apparently another example (like the Local Authority kennels) of implementing a law before the necessary procedures to comply with it are in place.

But , again, I am relying on hearsay for my info. . We really do need a charity that cares about the people who care for dogs, and provides up to date accurate information.

sally4670 · Post by **sally4670** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 4:08 pm

Ragged Robin - if i recall when the new law came into place re Microchipping KAR did post on several places what the requirements were.
They have now explained their position in respect of the recent law on "un owned dogs" - as an owner if you want further info in case it affects your dogs why do you not contact KAR or, as Sophie suggests , go onto the Government site and read it yourself.
Why are you critisising them for something that maybe your own vet can tell you - they know what the system is and how to get michrochip details (owners name etc) - KAR don't have access to the Government data base.

It makes me mad that people are quick to go on here and moan about things not being done how they want it done but don't seem to do anything about it themselves.
All this whinging does nothing to help the situation with the stray dogs does it. Rant over.

surfmeetseast · Post by **surfmeetseast** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 4:31 pm

Sally, I reallydo not think RR is criticising KAR. It's just the whole situation is so frustrating, and I do not think that RR will mind me saying that she is not really in a position to do a huge amount.
I am not either, with 6 rescued dogs already.
The most heartbreaking thing is, that my missing dog, and 3 others that I know of, are chipped
So the Beledisye havr no means to scan for chips!!! So if my dog and other's dogs are taken there what happens?
There are enough horror stories about what the Beledyse actually DO do I do not need to reiterate
It's taken the animal welfare situation here back 20 years

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 4:52 pm

Surfmeetseast - Exactly!
Your last comment about going backwards is spot on! KAR have been told they can no longer help the stray/dumped/street dogs in the way they have been doing. Picking up, assessing, neutering, trying to rehome but then returning to the area - no longer possible for them to do.
These new laws have been brought in before anything has been even started on the compound, what is the old English saying, something about putting the cart before the donkey!
I am sure someone will put me right on the exact wording.
All anyone has got to think about is what it would have been like if KAR had not done all that they have for the animals here!
It is up to the individual's choice how much they help or even care for the street dogs and cats. Some don't full stop. I don't think they even see them but this is their choice
Others however do, thank God.

BBB's other half.

surfmeetseast · Post by **surfmeetseast** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 5:28 pm

TY BBB's other half. It is not about bashing KAR, not at all.
From a subjective point of view my heart is broken, it is now 2 weeks that my dog has been missing
Taking away the powers from KAR is dreadful. If Belediyse have NO COMPOUNDS and NO WILLINGNESS to take dogs to check chips, NO FACILTIES or knowledge to check chips
Then what happens? Will it be true, the stroies that abound about dumped dead dogs in the nLapta mountains and concrete graveyards on Karisyaka beaches???
I tell you, if I came on holiday here, if I did not have provenance here, and love my home and my family, I would never ever return

surfmeetseast · Post by **surfmeetseast** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 5:30 pm

Apologies for repeated post, it took a while to get through and I am sat here waiting for news of other poor people's lost dogs

Mozgor · Post by **Mozgor** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 9:12 pm

KAR have done for 10 years in the general Kyrenia area what nobody else was prepared to do, so hats off to them.

As others have already stated, they are full to overflowing and have done their best under extremely difficult circumstances. Pounds are not an ideal environment for strays and the problem here is the lack of neutering, places like KAR deal with the symptom and try to influence the route cause.

It's a legal requirement here now for all Belediye to have their own pounds, to my knowledge Famagusta Belediyesi is the only one to have actually taken this on board and done anything. Girne are in the early stages of planning theirs. So the dogs get rounded up, off the streets and left in the pounds, what then?

In Famagusta it started with 15 dogs in August 2014 and now there are over 200 with still many street dogs in the area. So pounds are only part of the solution, adopting, education, neutering etc all have to take place in tandem.

For anyone who's interested I've attached a few pictures of the EU standard pound under construction in Famagusta. Like many things here, it's well behind schedule due mainly to lack of funds, but hopefully it will be ready to,open fully in 2016.

The point of my reply was to demonstrate that some Belediye are adhering to the law and providing facilities for the strays. This can only be good for KAR as it will take the pressure off them in the Girne area and good for all stray dogs as they will be fed, watered and receive veterinary treatment.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Mon 26 Oct 2015 10:36 pm

Sally over nearly 20 years I have cared and aid for 7 stray dogs, and still have three , one of whom is nearly 20 years old and has been with me for 17 of them. I have not had a holiday for over 5 years because I cannot afford kennels. The seriously increasing money I now spend on dogs now comes out of saving for my own health care. I also supported KAR before I became disillusioned with some of their policies. In the UK (when other commitments prevented me having dogs) and "sat" and execised dogs for elderly and handicapped people without charge. I am hurt by and strongly resent your implication that I do not make an effort to help. You should not attack people when you do not know their circs nor bother to read their posts properly.

The money I have spent on currently useless microchipping (including before it was compulsory because it was advocated by KAR) has been wasted and could be better spent.

I have already said I would read the law if I knew where to find it (in English like most expats here_.

There is are so many rumours and misinformation about the whole dog situation, it is just increasing the distress of those who do care about them. Why do we never get facts? I have already said I would read the legislation if someone would tell me how to find it (in English).

sally4670 · Post by **sally4670** » Tue 27 Oct 2015 6:55 am

Ragged Robin - i am sorry that you are hurt by my comments but what i am trying to say is --- all of this posting on here is doing nothing to help the dogs or find the answers. How many people on this forum have responded to the Girne councils requests for feedback about their new pound and any concerns ? I think the email or contact address was put on here sometime ago. Please can it be put back on. It was also in the newspapers.
The authorities have specifically requested feedback - have you voiced your concerns to them ?
Sophie has said that the info is on the Government website - have you looked on there for the info that you want about the legislation ?
It amazes me that as soon as the word "KAR" is put onto a thread that all sorts of concerns come out - but maybe those concerns should also be raised elsewhere. It seems they rarely are.

Mozgor - i had been watching the Famagusta project from the beginning and thought it could be a great example - it is such a shame that their best efforts have been thwarted by lack of funds. A shame for the people who helped. who believed in the project, for the volunteers who give hours of their time and effort but more importantly a shame for the dogs. Do they have an education programe there - the same as the KAR one . It is run by volunteers and they go into local schools - it must be be the way forward - Education. It will all take time and in the interim it is again, the UN owned dogs who suffer.

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Tue 27 Oct 2015 7:33 am

I attended the meeting in Girne, which was chaired by the Mayor. He specifically asked for advice, comments and suggestions about the dog compound but the deadline was set at the 31st October, 15.
This I posted with a rundown of the meeting on here and I did say there were Ladies from KAR present.
I cannot scroll through back postings as it was maybe 4 weeks ago - can anyone else bring it back please although I think now time has run out.
Sometimes I really do think that some of the members on here purposely pick on a topic they know a lot of us really do care about, fire the gun and then retreat, leaving others with the back lash.
That is just my opinion and we are all allowed to have them.
Have a good one, everybody!

BBB's other Half.

sammydavis · Post by **sammydavis** » Tue 27 Oct 2015 9:46 am

So what does anyone do now if a stray is seen??? We could all end up with loads of dogs, but have to be sensible to some extent - but heart breaks to see another one and now can not even depend on KAR. Lapta Beleidiye is not known for being kind to these animals, and it is a great worry what they do with them if they round them up. Where is their compound, do they have chip readers, do they feed them, do they try to re-home them - I greatly doubt it. I too saw what I think was a plastic bag of dead animals and am appalled. What has been put in place in law to make these councils do the right thing???

surfmeetseast · Post by **surfmeetseast** » Tue 27 Oct 2015 11:21 am

Its not so much a case of depending on KAR, personally I never have because we live out of their catchment area but I still admire and support them in any small way I can. The truth is, there is NO compound at Lapta, therefore NO help available unless you are lucky enough to be helped by one of the smaller, and utterly overstretched charities out there
It has been surmised for a long time that any stray taken to Lapta belediyse will be used for shooting practice and then dumped in a bag in the mountains and I am beginning to believe this his horribly true
We live in a country where a large part of the population regard dogs and other animals as vermin, and then some folk wonder why we get angry

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Tue 27 Oct 2015 3:59 pm

This is just becoming Catch 22. I remember the post about the meeting and complaints about two few attending, but Ialso seem to remember that it was very sort notice. I would very much have liked to attend but with mobility problems no idea how long the whole exercise would take I could risk leaving my own rescue dogs indoors for too long.

The problem is as someone said above the authorities are putting the cart before the horse (or donkey which might actuallly be more appropriate!) and enforcing laws without the facilities. The fact is that the culture here mainly views dogs in a different light. In the UK and America and to some extent other parts of Europe they are seen as assets and helpers and treated at best as companions and at worst as servants who will perform better if well fed , housed and cared for. N. Cyprus has not grown up to with Seeing Eye and Hearing aid dogs,Rescue dogs , trained Police and Sniffer dogs,let alone animals who provide companionship and reassurance for lonely elderly and disabled people and children! Even farm and sheep dogs are regarded more as guard dogs than an aid to handling livestock and as such aggressive. Attitudes among educated Cypriots are improving but it will take at least a generation and too many are following the example of those Brits etc who buy designer dogs or the larger more aggressive dogs to boost their own image and abandon them when they get bored.

According to what I read in the press at the time, the introduction of compulsory micropchipping was hailed by KAR as a victory for them in influencing the Government. They would have better served the animals and carers in my opinion to use any influence to postpone implementation of the law until the necessary procedure were in force.

I think a wish to impress the EU is also a factory in both the micropchipping law and the alleged restrictions on street dogs. The EU should therefore provide the funding for kennels etc.

Meanwhile we are getting a lot of scare stories that are upsetting me both (and no doubt others0as an animal lover and for the sake of my own dogs! but all are admittedly based on hearsay. Is there no way we can get actual facts, and no way someone can tell me how to access the legislation which allegedly is influenceing KAR' s decision so I can make my own mind up..

This whole thing was started by a perfectly reasonable question raised as a result of an uninformative who is presumably a member of the public who are constantly meeting requests for donations for a particular Charity. A reasonable reply explaining the other calls on KAR's resources would have been more constructive than the combative and patronising attitude the KAR supporters appear to take to any questions or suggestions..

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Tue 27 Oct 2015 8:59 pm

Ragged Robin I think if you scroll back to my first reply on this posting I have listed perfectly valid reasons why KAR need the support of us, members of the community here and others worldwide.
They have in their care dogs, puppies, cats and kittens which have to be fed, watered and cared for. If they don't do it who will?
This costs money!
I know you have rescue animals as I do and that is our choice. The reward for me in seeing my dogs happy, healthy and living a fun filled life, far out ways the cost. Sooner us go without than them.
I cannot understand why out the blue, someone is ''having a go'' again at KAR and now seems to have gone to ground.
The meeting for the new pound was advertised well in advance because how would I have known about it else? It was an open invitation, everything above board and where it was held there was adequate parking virtually next to the entrance of the meeting hall.
All this backlash is not going to help the animals! What would help, in my opinion, is if all of us who genuinely cared could all work together.
Don't think that this is going to happen somehow!

BBB's other half.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 6:04 am

bigbadbob wrote:I cannot understand why out the blue, someone is ''having a go'' again at KAR and now seems to have gone to ground.

BBB's other half.

You have to wonder if 'Jacob', has a long history of trying to undermine KAR on fora (maybe not always with this 'name')... ?

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 12:06 pm

Groucho ! Exactly!

BBB's Other Half.

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 12:35 pm

Groucho wrote:
bigbadbob wrote:I cannot understand why out the blue, someone is ''having a go'' again at KAR and now seems to have gone to ground.

BBB's other half.
You have to wonder if 'Jacob', has a long history of trying to undermine KAR on fora (maybe not always with this 'name')... ?

I am not trying to undermine KAR, what a ludicrous thing to say, how can one person undermine anything, a collective would be required.

As for the rest, I say little for the simple reason that attacking a forum member is not supposed to be allowed yet it seems it is ok when it suits.

My feeling towards KAR is my business and I am not in the habit of being the bullseye for the bleeding heart brigade, I will leave you all to it.

Ask a reasonable question and put tin hat on

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 1:08 pm

I honestly do not think any Forum member is attacking anyone and you must be a very sensitive person if you feel this is the case.
Your initial posting and your queries on KAR, in my opinion were answered honestly but unfortunately things kicked off rather unpleasantly.
I do not regard the description of Bleeding Hearts Brigade to be an accurate one of me or others on this Forum.
There are many of us who live here, in our own way try and help the street animals as much as we can. We are not in a Group or Charity but do it off our own back and with our own resources.
Do you live here Jacob? Are you a member of any Group or Charity here?
This is not having ''a go'' but I am just trying to understand why you were so concerned in the first place about KAR ,
Off to walk by Furry Hooligans now!

BB;s other half.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 1:18 pm

jacob wrote:
Groucho wrote:
bigbadbob wrote:I cannot understand why out the blue, someone is ''having a go'' again at KAR and now seems to have gone to ground.

BBB's other half.
You have to wonder if 'Jacob', has a long history of trying to undermine KAR on fora (maybe not always with this 'name')... ?

I am not trying to undermine KAR, what a ludicrous thing to say, how can one person undermine anything, a collective would be required.

As for the rest, I say little for the simple reason that attacking a forum member is not supposed to be allowed yet it seems it is ok when it suits.

My feeling towards KAR is my business and I am not in the habit of being the bullseye for the bleeding heart brigade, I will leave you all to it.

Ask a reasonable question and put tin hat on

History is full of 'one person' who manages to undermine anything worthwhile..... look them up!

For one professing not to be trying to undermine KAR you make a pretty good impression of one who is... The rhetoric of your opening gambit will not be lost on the rest of the membership of this forum...

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 2:32 pm

I do not know who Jacob is in real life, and in fact have disliked some other posts on different subject from him. However I do believe in fairness and it gives rise to doubts and questions when a perfectly reasonable question about a charity which relies on public support, receives agressive responses. Perhaps people should read their posts more carefully and think about how they sound. "Methinks the lady protests too much"!

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 2:57 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:I do not know who Jacob is in real life, and in fact have disliked some other posts on different subject from him. However I do believe in fairness and it gives rise to doubts and questions when a perfectly reasonable question about a charity which relies on public support, receives agressive responses. Perhaps people should read their posts more carefully and think about how they sound. "Methinks the lady protests too much"!

How do you interpret Jacob's parting shot in his original post of

What are they fundraising for. I thought it was to help.

?

Maybe you do not see it as I do and as I suspect some others do, but to me there is a clear implication in what he said there, and it is not in my view a fair or reasonable implication at all. I do not know who Jacob is in real life, though I have pretty strong suspicions, but I do judge his posts based on all the previous posts he has made under the alias of 'Jacob' here on this forum, and doing that combined with the wording of his first post on this thread that he started I do not believe on the balance of probability that his question was in fact a 'perfectly reasonable question' and nothing other than that. Still just my own personal view of course.

bigbadbob · Post by **bigbadbob** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 3:51 pm

A perfectly reasonable question about a charity ( comment made about the initial posting) and a perfectly reasonable and truthful answer given. Who can argue with 300 Plus four legged animals who are all dependant on the care and help given to them by KAR. The animals deserve a life , no argument on this or so I would have thought.
Nothing more to be said really - money is needed for these animals and also for any other ones in the future that will need help.

BBB's other half. - It's a Goodnight from me and mine!

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 4:01 pm

jacob wrote: .....My feeling towards KAR is my business .....

- in which case, what was the purpose of the original initiating of this thread?

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 6:53 pm

When I worked as a volunteer for a Charity (for humans) we were always delighted to tell people what we were doing, We were also always prepared to explain in detail why we were doing things in particular way or if we were not doing things and why not (even if it was somewhat tedious) if only because just very occasionally this actually resulted in a useful suggestion or an offer of help but mainly we accepted that if we were begging the public for help it we had a duty to explain what was done with their money. KAR give me the impression that they resent questions and suggestions and are arrogant in thinking they are above criticism.

In this particular case I rather suspect that the legislation is being misinterpreted (it often is in the UK as well as here) because I cannot see that removing on animal ( no one claims to own) for the purposes of curing it or neutering it and putting it back afterwards, constitutes "dumping"! But I cannot check until someone tells me where to look for the exact wording of the law, rule, regulation whatever it is (Just Government Website is not enough) and regretfully I dont read Turkish well enough so it needs to be in English, Presumably KAR have someone to translate these things for them?

It is perfectly possible and unfortunately normal to disagree strongly with another person (or indeed organisation) on one subject and agree on another - it happens often on this Board.

silverfir · Post by **silverfir** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 7:14 pm

For goodness sake. If you are wondering/querying why KAR still need funds, get your butt up to their kennel site up in the mountains. Unless you are a really hard hearted bustard, be sure to take some tissues with you. Then the next time you come across someone raising funds for KAR, reach deeper into the purse/pockets. Having to ask the original question suggests to me you have no idea what it is all about. Just my humble opinion you understand.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 7:48 pm

Ragged Robin wrote: KAR give me the impression that they resent questions and suggestions and are arrogant in thinking they are above criticism.

Is "What are they fundraising for. I thought it was to help." criticism ? None of the responses here are from KAR in any official capacity as far as I understand it ? I believe KAR does have an 'official' username here and it has not posted on this thread. KAR may well be arrogant and think they are above criticism but for me there is nothing in this thread that would support that suggestion.

Ragged Robin wrote: In this particular case I rather suspect that the legislation is being misinterpreted (it often is in the UK as well as here) because I cannot see that removing on animal ( no one claims to own) for the purposes of curing it or neutering it and putting it back afterwards, constitutes "dumping"! But I cannot check until someone tells me where to look for the exact wording of the law, rule, regulation whatever it is (Just Government Website is not enough) and regretfully I dont read Turkish well enough so it needs to be in English, Presumably KAR have someone to translate these things for them?

So on the basis of not having seen the legislation yourself, not being able to read it even if you did see and based on what would appear to nothing but an assumption that any such TRNC law would surely reflect 'common sense' as you see it, you suspect that KAR have misinterpreted the law. With respect do you not think that could be considered somewhat arrogant on your part?

I would love to be able to provide to you an accurate English translation of the relevant law but such is not within my power to do. I believe there is an online repository of TRNC laws and I could probably find that but I do not have the language skills to go any further than that. I do not know but I suspect that KAR have people they speak with about legislation in the TRNC relevant to their work with a legal background as well as having had discussions with local council representatives about this new legislation and have posted their best understanding of what the law says and what it means for their work. Maybe they are wrong but I think there is a greater chance they are correct or more correct about these things than either myself or with respect yourself. In theory KAR could pay to have a serious legal translation of such legislation into English made so that they could then make it available to us all here so that we could then offer our non expert opinions as to if it has been understood correctly but personally I would rather any such funds were used to help animals in distress as best they can within the real limits they operate within and no doubt if they were to use funds in such a way that in itself would be grounds for some people to criticise them and their work.

Ragged Robin wrote:It is perfectly possible and unfortunately normal to disagree strongly with another person (or indeed organisation) on one subject and agree on another - it happens often on this Board.

Indeed and I strongly disagree with your opinion that Jacobs original post was just asking a 'reasonable question' and posted with no other motive than this. I think it is highly likely that this is not in fact the case. I disagree with your opinion that KAR have shown they resent being asked question and have shown arrogance in this thread. I disagree with your suspicion that they have misunderstood the legislation.

My personal view is that KAR is far from a perfect organisation but then I do not personal hold such a unrealistic expectation. What I do consider is fact is that KAR has over countless years relived suffering of many many animals that would not have had that suffering relived without their efforts. Found homes for many many animals that otherwise would not have had homes. These are not the only things KAR has done throughout its existence but they are the ones that count most with me and are things I hope it continues to do into the future regardless of what the law currently says and what the status of neuter and return program for dogs currently is.

surfmeetseast · Post by **surfmeetseast** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 8:18 pm

It does no good. Personally I believe that Jacob's post was misunderstood
The arguing is doing no good, my dog is gone, Lucy and Chalky ar gone. Several dogs are found or missing, or found in plastic bags all dead
I remember a lot of posts by Jacob and he is an animal lover. Maybe a bit much to take if you are in EU PC lala land
It is easy to misread posts that are just in striaght text
The important thing is that lovers of animals should help other animal lovers, because NO ON ELSE WILL
And same as Jacob, leaving you all to it now
AND, before you say it I have been to Kar I have walked dogs donated blankets, money food
Please do not diss a Man until you know the inflection of how a post in text an be misread

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 9:20 pm

For goodness sake - can no one see that it would HELP KAR the neutering programme and the animals if the legislation (if indeed there has been legislation and even that has not been established yet) has been misinterpreted (and as I said that happens everywhere even without the additional problem of translation).

Erol am amarzed at you - do you always believe everything someone else tells you without checking the facts? I have learned a very hard way never to do that.Whateve happened to democracy? Are KAR supposed to betreated as Gods that they never make a mistake?

Silverfir: I dont want to go into personal details on a forum where people are so aggressive, but I only wish I COULD get to the kennels or indeed into the mountains at all but it is physically impossible for me, in fact I havent been able to go more than five miles away from home for some years! And even if I could - what about the dogs I am looking after while I am away? Your comment is not only insensitive it is downright cruel.

surfmeets east: I agree it is doing no good at all. I am so sorry about your missing dogs, and only wish could help but to live too far away. The fact is those who look after strays (or indeed any animal) give hostages to fortune, and particularly living here.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 10:05 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:Erol am amarzed at you - do you always believe everything someone else tells you without checking the facts? I have learned a very hard way never to do that.Whateve happened to democracy? Are KAR supposed to betreated as Gods that they never make a mistake?

No I do not believe everything someone tells me. Then again I try to not chose to not believe them just because I want the truth to be different. No where have I said KAR are gods and that they never make mistakes - in fact I have actually explicitly said the opposite in this very thread when I said (imo) KAR is far from a perfect organisation. However what is it that I am supposed to be questioning about the announcement that KAR made here http://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/v ... 99#p133799 ? That there is in fact no such legislation that they refer to in this post ? Why would I question that ? What possible motive could they have for making something like that up ? I know that something has happened even in the absence of any info from KAR just on the basis that the famagusta local authority is in the process of building an animal compound and the Girne local council has held public meetings about it's plans to do likewise. Given that, KAR saying that they are having to cease the tag / neuter and return programmes they have run historically because of TRNC laws is to me entirely credible. Yes it is possible that they have just misunderstood some new legislation, it is possible but I do not personally think it is likely that they so badly misunderstood it. It is also possible that there may grounds on which KAR could potentially challenge the law and whether it does indeed now prohibit them from operating a tag / neuter / return system that have previously but again I do not think this is something that KAR should consider doing. I do assume and trust that they have done what investigation they can with the resources and contacts they have with regards to the law and come up with the answers that they have announced - namely that they can no longer operate a tag / neuter / return program for dogs.

But let us be clear here, the original poster was not asking these questions that you are now asking. He was as far as I can tell asking what is the point of KAR's continued existence and it continuing to raise money to fund that existence if there is to be no tag / neuter / return program for dogs any more. To me this is a question that was clearly answered in KAR's original announcement, that I provide the link to above, that clearly and openly and publicly lays out what KAR will no longer be doing that it used to do and what it will continue to do as as it always has.

I am also a bit confused as to what any of this has to do with democracy ?

sally4670 · Post by **sally4670** » Wed 28 Oct 2015 11:16 pm

Ragged Robin - I will apologise in case you are offended (again) by my thoughts but what have you done to find out the info that you claim to seek ?
Have you even looked on the Government website ?
Have you contacted KAR ?
Have you sent your concerns/views to the Girne bledere (sp i know !!) ?

Oh no - i forgot - you cannot find the link for beledere feed back - the meeting was announced too late - insufficient access to attend - the info MIGHT be in Turkish - Just so many excuses.
So seeing as you are so concerned - WHAT have you done to find out the answers that you seek (apart from tap tap on here)?

Maybe if you used your skills on the pc/internet but pointed them at the authorities then maybe you would find the answers or EVEN make some difference. Just repeatedly moaning about the same thing on here does little to help.
Same old same old springs to mind.
Just my opinion of course !

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 29 Oct 2015 3:27 pm

Who says I have internet skills.. I don't! But someone I know who is better at it than me has tried to find out about the legislation on "dumping" dogs and can't find anything relevant to the original KAR post.

I do have some experience of legislation in the UK(although admittedly out of date in another field) and it is accepted that it can happen that the intentions of the politicians are not always reflected exactly when Civil Servants express them in in written Laws , and can be further misunderstood when the legislation is implemented. And by people with more resources that KAR can reasonably be expected to have. OK that is the UK (and I am told, the US). That is why laws are sometimes repealed, sometimes reenacted and often amended! Does it not happen elsewhere including here?

Democracy is (or rather it should be) among other things having access to information that affects you, the right to comment on it with insult and to know what use is being made of one's money.

This is too distressing and taking too much time............................ and its goodbye from me.

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