Have you watched the Brexit Movie ?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Mon 16 May 2016 7:09 pm

Its about a hour long but well worth the watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

mickhm · Post by **mickhm** » Mon 16 May 2016 9:23 pm

Yup I did and a good watch. Makes you wonder just who is pulling the strings? Quite a worry really especially when the stay brigade frighten us with trade deals and it transpires the EU has only got two!

lee666 · Post by **lee666** » Mon 16 May 2016 11:20 pm

i have been following the other 6 page thread re the discussion on IN or OUT of The EU.

I have watched LIVE all the scaremongering tactics being used by Caneron and his cronies including trotting out Obama during his UK visit, how the cost to each household is set to spiral, security, trade deals etc etc if we leave the EU.

This 1 hour 11 minute movie has opened my eyes. As in the movie we can be another Switzerland, I believe in my country and the people who would be responsible for getting our sovereignty back and make us a leading nation once again.

If we don't take this once in a life time chance to get out otherwise we are going to be stuck in the same bureaucratic club for the next 50 years and remain the smallest trading nation/continent in the world.

This is my view/opinion only and I haven't viewed the movie or given the above opinion to get embroiled in an argument with anyone.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 6:26 pm

Lee666
you write as if our prime minister was the enemy and out to sink the UK. I hardly think so.
To be another Switzerland would be complete failure for the UK, Switzerland is approx 20 times smaller than UK as an economy. Its export market is comparatively tiny. There is absolutely no comparison.
The UK maintains sovereignty. We are members of the EU. The EU has no sovereign rights over members. Please do explain how you envisage we will be a leading nation again. Given we are indeed the 5th biggest economy in the world and leading the EU pack of successful EU economies.. All this whilst a member of the Union for the past 40 years. How great do you think we will become in the months following a divorce from the Union? Please do explain.

lee666 · Post by **lee666** » Tue 17 May 2016 6:36 pm

was-24-7, I wrote;

'This is my view/opinion only and I haven't viewed the movie or given the above opinion to get embroiled in an argument with anyone'.

You are obviously 100% IN, that's your choice just let others make the choice they want without the IN brigade questioning them.

Remember democracy.

£eagle · Post by **£eagle** » Tue 17 May 2016 6:49 pm

The GDP per capita of Switzerland is $84,000; that of the UK $44,000. One can prosper outside the EU if you try.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 6:56 pm

Lee666.
I respect anyone's choice; that's democracy. I hold no gun at anyone's head!! This is a discussion and should be treated as such. Like yourself I am passionate about my homeland and country. My position is IN based on economic, prosperity and progress reasons and facts. I have seen nothing that suggests an OUT vote will lead to the same. I only see the return to being great brigade quoting sovereignty, stiff upper lip and such tripe that has no fundamental facts to make me vote otherwise.
Perhaps you may have some thoughts upon why your viewpoint is OUT.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 7:02 pm

£eagle.
A per capita comparison is not really reflective. Switzerland has a massive banking sector. It has no automotive or real manufacturing base as the UK has. The UK is a net exporter and we must sell goods and services to maintain our expectations and standard of living. I am afraid that trying though noble does not cut the mustard when the OUT vote will lead to a decline in economic confidence, investment, exports and trade in general particularly within the EU.
Please do not think we are not trying to trade with the whole world. We do it every second of every day. The UK is good at it. We cannot afford any decline that will soon be filled by others. The whole world is in the competition

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Tue 17 May 2016 7:40 pm

Get Britain OUT of the EU.

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10 ... withdrawl/

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 8:20 pm

wotNoDeeds
Thanyou for the link which has been out there for some time.
The article focusses on making case against what the IN campaign indicates as possible. No real facts on why we should consider IN as a plausible alternative.
The article totally fails to acknowledge the immediate and short term consequences of an OUT vote. Investor confidence will evaporate steadily as uncertainty prevails over all the new trade agreements and the follow Switzerland and Norway route. You just cannot re write 40 years of economic success in the EU overnight . It will take years and whilst the mess is cleaned up the UK is left behind squandering in uncertainty.
Could we see 10 points to illustrate why we should vote OUT instead of simply denying the IN vote points as credible. Nice graphics sums up the case really. ..doodles on the wall.

£eagle · Post by **£eagle** » Tue 17 May 2016 8:26 pm

Waz,
Switzerland had a trade surplus, in 2014, of 29bn SFr. exporting 208bn Sfr of goods and has 3 of the largest manufacturing companies in Europe. The UK had a goods trade deficit, in 2015, of £125bn. Both countries have huge financial services sectors but the UK's is not enough to eliminate the overall balance of payments deficit.
There can be life outside the EU and, it appears, a very prosperous one if you work at it.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 8:30 pm

mickhm
Not sure where your facts come from regarding two trade deals that the EU holds. Wherever, This is not the point.
To avoid confusion. The European Union represents 400 million consumers spending and investing money on a daily basis. Many of these consumers spend and invest and support UK businesses and services that we actively sell into Europe under the single market economy. The UK has done it well for 40 years. You are contemplating leaving this FREE TRADE market in preference to negotiation on an individual basis. How can this possibly enable the UK to prosper and become more competitive in the world economy. Rest assured the gap left by our ( even short term) absence will be filled in a heart beat by any of the developing competitive economies.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 8:42 pm

£ eagle.
Well done for your google works.
Switzerland is not at all a comparison to quote . The UK economy is far more diverse and indeed reliant upon exports in particular. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. We already work incredibly hard to get to that level of trade. The UK DTI work tirelessly across the world promoting UK trade and industry. To suggest some extra effort will simply replace ( even in part) our current free trade agreement with 400 million consumers is very foolish. The world economy is complex , fast moving. Weakness and uncertainty can cripple an economy. Life outside the EU... Certainly. ...Prosperous..no not for several decades and then too late for recovery I fear.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 17 May 2016 8:50 pm

£eagle.
Your supposition that the UK can become the new Switzerland is severely flawed. Yes the Swiss enjoy relatively good life style and have stability and certainty within their economy. That exactly why they are successful it has taken over 100years. You are proposing exactly the opposite with an OUT vote. To leave the Union spells to investors and customers, uncertainty, speculation, risk and the obvious result of this is decline, recession and fear.
Your work ethic is commendable but in the world of global economics. It is the day by day markets that dictate. Whilst you are thinking of the extra effort the boat named opportunity has sailed to another shore.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Tue 17 May 2016 9:47 pm

Waz
I did hope after watching the Brexit Movie you may have enlightened us on how staying in the EU would reform and bring to heel this hideous and all consuming monster that bleeds every nation in it dry.
But alas more and more scaremongering and nothing about the contents of the film.

Waz your posts are sounding more and more desperate and at this rate you will be in such a state by polling day

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Tue 17 May 2016 10:42 pm

"Six of one and half a dozen of the other" and "pot calling kettle" springs to mind.....

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 17 May 2016 10:46 pm

turtle wrote: and nothing about the contents of the film.

A lot could be said about the contents of the film imo but really what would be the point offering an alternative view ? It would not affect your views would it turtle to hear an alternative view point to those expressed in the film ? If I am being unfair then apologies in advance.

£eagle · Post by **£eagle** » Wed 18 May 2016 8:14 am

Waz,

I have not proposed anything about Remaining or Brexiting. I have merely pointed out that a country at the heart of the continent of Europe, Switzerland, has achieved a GDP/P double that of the UK whilst remaining outside the EU. You say that this is "not a comparison to quote". I cannot see why it is not. Switzerland has a diverse economy, it has few natural resources and needs to export goods and services to pay for its imports. Despite the barriers that you fear, Switzerland manages to export more than it imports and has one of the world's strongest currencies. It also a has substantial measure of democratic control over its society.

On the other hand the UK is in trade and financial deficit and its currency has depreciated by more than 20% against the euro since its launch in 1999. The UK has a 7.5% democratic representation in the EU and, apparently, has been outvoted on every measure it has opposed.

A country can survive and prosper outside Europe. These other non EU countries are also doing pretty well:
GDP/P
Norway $65,000 (2014)
Jersey $57,000 (2014)
Guernsey $45,000 (2014)
Isle of Man $49,000 (2007)
Iceland $51,000 (2014)

Whilst economics is hugely important (and not capable of prediction) for me the most important issue is governance. The EU is not democratic in the least part. Its closest parallell may be North Korea. The majority of commissioners MEPs and apparatchiks come from countries that are both uncontrollably corrupt and net beneficiaries of EU largesse. i.e. the crooks have been given the keys to the safe.

It is truly shocking, to me, that the least corrupt of the countries making up this group is the Republic of Cyprus! A few years down the line (this vote decides things forever..... well a long time) Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Albania, perhaps Turkey, perhaps Ukraine may join the EU, each of which is immensely corrupt and will further dilute the influence of the UK to nearly nil.

The founding ideals of the EU may be splendid but the organisation has been captured by vested interests and, increasingly, by kleptocrats. It needs reform but, as David Cameron discovered in his futile efforts, the eu organisation refuses to change or give up its powers.

It may be that an Out vote may lead to the EU reforming itself because, throughout Europe, there is widespread support for the european ideal but dislike for the present institutions. It can do better, so can the UK.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 10:17 am

erol wrote:
turtle wrote: and nothing about the contents of the film.
A lot could be said about the contents of the film imo but really what would be the point offering an alternative view ? It would not affect your views would it turtle to hear an alternative view point to those expressed in the film ? If I am being unfair then apologies in advance.

Erol
Yes there is every point in putting your opinion,.. I for one value it (don't always agree with it) but there are a potential 5000 other pair of eyes who may be showing an interest in the contents of the film so I for one would welcome your opinion on it.

The film highlights the huge issues within the EU and I am interested if the "inners" are happy to let this continue and if by being in would actually change anything at all bearing in mind they have been building this for over 40yrs I am sure little old UK are not going to change things.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 11:28 am

£eagle
You still refer to tiny non reflective economies that cannot be the template for future success of the UK. Your reference to North Korea is ludicrous.
Europe is one of the largest and successful democracies in the world.Norh Korea is NOT a democracy in any form. The OUT campaign for isolationism is more akin with the totalitarian views of North Korea. The economic forecast upon an exit is definitely and supported by myself decline and recession. Your fear of other countries is not a good reason to exit. It has tones of isolationism and exclusion. In the modern World this is a sure path to failure. The UK must compete and be active on the world stage. Yes the EU has issues. The UK has issues too. An exit is NOT a solution.

mickhm · Post by **mickhm** » Wed 18 May 2016 11:41 am

Waz, The information came from the Brexit movie. Perhaps you haven't or don't want to watch it.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 12:06 pm

Turtle,
The debate is gathering momentum which I am pleased about. I am not at all desperate about polling. I am however disappointed at the level of OUT voters that have expressed views on this forum. I do hope this is not the consensus of voters in the homeland. The film is very critical of the EU and the administration. I am afraid to trade in this market one must conform. To be OUT does not excuse the UK from meeting EU regulations. To not Conform is NOT to trade. The film makes little reference to how the UK can prosper on its own. The film is a glossed up TV ad without any real input from Buisness, Governement, or anyone of substance. Where is Legrande, Cameron, Carney, Corbyn, Obama, the world influencers. They are all IN.

Other points:
Sugar is in decline as a commodity ( a bad foodstuff) The EU is not the cause of Tate and Lyle decline.
What of the car industry and the gateway to Europe for UK manufactured product.
Fishing. Overfishing has resulted in drastic stock reductions. Not the EU.
Growth in the EU is slow after 2008. the UK is the success having overcome recession 1st. To leave the Union will threated this progress due to its need to negotiate trade deals on individual basis. This is not an overnight task.
What of investment into the UK as the gateway to European market? No gateway, certainly less investment.
The Swiss comparison. lets all move there. I hardly think so the population is tiny in comparison (8 million) . To use this as a template is ludicrous.
The UK cannot simply start making swiss watches, learn to ski and everything will be fine. The UK is a world leader with 5th largest economy. Switzerland is a minor economy with little real influence

lee666 · Post by **lee666** » Wed 18 May 2016 12:19 pm

All I see on this thread like the last one is people trying to use the Cameron, Chancellor, Obama, IMF, Bank of England etc scare tactics. There are two options, IN or OUT. Those in the IN appear to be using the same kind of tactics such as isolation etc that currently takes place. I personally feel we have great people in this diverse country of ours who could trade with anyone, I refuse to put these down, of course there is uncertainty leaving the EU but we'll never find out if we don't try. If we stay in we will be in until my great grand children pass away, scary !!

The IN's and OUT's can discuss this topic with great fervour but I can truly say that not one OUT will be convinced to change their mind by an IN - people have already made up their minds.

Once again this is only my opinion, now where's that Anderson Shelter !!

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 1:59 pm

Waz
I did say I was going to sit this out for a bit but felt I had to post a copy of the Brexit Movie for people to see how the EU is run.
Your comments are welcome if not worrying by the fact you seem to accept the administration of the EU is somewhat flawed with your view something like "oh well so be it" ? Lets all conform to this idiocy ,... well not for me I'm afraid or to many millions of ordinary Brits
Your words seem to say to me you couldn't care less that the EU is a badly run organisation which is undemocratic and a huge squander of money just so long as we keep our trade with them ?
You need to look at the bigger picture Waz and stop getting sucked into this EU circus which at some point in the not too distant future will fall apart around our ears.

Get OUT now while we can.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 2:11 pm

Lee666
I tend to agree with your outlook that the Out voters, certainly here in the TRNC have made decisions that are unlikely to change.
My point about the said BREXIT film is that it is devoid of the real decision makers in politics, government and business. It is a commissioned TV advert based on little real meaningful points to suggest what the UK can become when OUT.
I indeed have quoted the thoughts of real decision makers within the World. Cameron, Obama, legrande, the list goes on. These people have credibility and have not commissioned TV type adverts to make the case ( as yet). The biggest and most important decision is how does the UK continue upon the path of growth, Reform the EU and seek true prosperity whilst maintaining its current position of strength. A divorce from Europe does not offer a solution to those vital aspirations.

Turtle
I have made it clear that the Union is far from perfect and reform is required. This is indeed possible ant the UK can be heavily involved in this process but ONLY if we are at the table. I cannot see leaving will assist anyone at all.
Thank you for the film link. I have passed comment upon its content and credibility. A good bit of marketing TV much like an extended TV advert but no real decision makers or influential contributors could actually get into power and change things!!
Certainly the EU is not our only trading partner and the World is our oyster. However the UK holds a position of influence and power on the World stage. As a Union member this influence is also very much European wide too. A divorce will certainly hinder our position.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 2:16 pm

Waz
You mention Lagarde,.. Her forcasts are worse than a weather girl
Cameron... Not to be trusted in anything he says
Carney..... a government puppet
Corbyn...... I can not believe you have mentioned this idiot
Obama..... Has a vested interest in his own country couldn't care less about the UK only our dosh.

There you are Ladies & Gents 5 very good reasons to GET OUT NOW.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 2:20 pm

Turtle
I just wonder how you think the EU will fall apart around our ears. I have seen no facts presented to indicate this. The Free trade union has been a success for past 40 years. It has most recently had significant issues that it is agreed need addressing. To get off the ship is hardly going to get you safely to your destination. Please do not assume that I accept the EU in its current form. I fully support the reform that has been too long coming. I do think the UK referendum has shaken a few into reform mode in order to regain the deserved credibility we all want.
IN, reform and prosper. Get out now while we can...to what?? uncertainty, risk, and become Swiss!!

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 2:24 pm

Waz
If you think we can influence the EU to any degree then I think you are deluded,.. 40yrs of absolutely no influence at all and you think we can change things just by getting an IN vote next month... not a chance.

You may knock the film as an ad but obviously you think that dinosaur lumbering around is going to listen to the UK..... think again my friend.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 2:27 pm

Turtle,
These people are, like it or not, elected decision makers in the modern world.
Your lack of confidence is noted but your lack of alternative and plausible alternative offers me no confidence in your ability to make rational and thought out decisions upon the future of the UK.
Please do criticize but please also offer solutions and or alternatives.

I often say in my vocation Don't bring me problems ..bring me solutions.

lee666 · Post by **lee666** » Wed 18 May 2016 5:14 pm

The link below should take to a link for a video from the Norwegians who headed up the 'Stay Out' campaign in 1994, well worth 3 minutes of anyone's time. WHEN IT OPENS THERE'S a blank square at he top of screen, just touch the middle of it.

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficia ... 348070940/

I see similarities from the IN campaigners in the UK, do you ??

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 6:00 pm

Lee666
Thank you for the link. The video is based upon events over 20 years ago!! Furthermore this was a vote to JOIN or NOT TO JOIN.
UK referendum is somewhat different. We have been Union members for more than 40 years and we are voting whether to ditch the past 40 years and go it alone. If it (UK) was of similar vote type as the Norwegian referendum then certainly the UK would not suffer from a NOT to JOIN vote because we would be starting from a non member non contributor status. The uncertainty and risk involved in an exit is far more tangible and objective.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 6:01 pm

Lee,...... absolutely, scarmongering and rhetoric that is all they have in the armoury.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 6:16 pm

turtle wrote:Waz
If you think we can influence the EU to any degree then I think you are deluded,.. 40yrs of absolutely no influence at all and you think we can change things just by getting an IN vote next month... not a chance.

You may knock the film as an ad but obviously you think that dinosaur lumbering around is going to listen to the UK..... think again my friend.

Turtle,
The 40 yrs of membership has assisted and given the UK its current success. Yes success. We are 5th largest economy in the World. We sit at G20 and G7 tables we sit at the European Union table with status and respect. To say we have absolutely no influence is contested vigorously.
Any decline or even threat of withdraw from the European stage will reduce our clear influence. Influence is power and power on planet earth reaps the benefits of trade, respect and commitment. Do you think Merkel, Hollande et al will be straight on a plane to sit at the table for the UK Brexit recovery plan?? The UK alone is weaker and vulnerable.

I await some suggestions upon alternatives to provide the UK with a route to increased prosperity and indeed who will lead us down that same route given your comments concerning current world leaders.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 6:30 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle,
These people are, like it or not, elected decision makers in the modern world.
Your lack of confidence is noted but your lack of alternative and plausible alternative offers me no confidence in your ability to make rational and thought out decisions upon the future of the UK.
Please do criticize but please also offer solutions and or alternatives.

I often say in my vocation Don't bring me problems ..bring me solutions.

No these people are not elected...they are NON elected.
My lack of confidence is down to the downright inept bureaucratic way the EU is run, the wastage, the meddling, the shift of power, the complete and utter disregard for peoples lives and culture so sorry Waz I will continue to criticize until this entity is totally reformed.
You are correct I don't know what will happen if we Brexit but also you don't know what may happen also you have fear I understand that you personally may have more to loose but I am willing to give it a go.
We have heard all this crap about world wars, job losses, more expensive goods and generally the UK falling into a big black hole...
Let me ask you this... if this is the case why did Cameron give us the vote, was it just a vote grab... is he that naive?... or is it the fact he knows how bad an out vote will be and he is hoping that this won't happen either way he has been very reckless and you want us to trust his judgement ?.

So solutions you want hey,...you don't have any and neither do I if we stay we get the same old same old and if you think we can go back to the big table and renegotiate then convince me that "WILL".. not could happen because Cameron went there earlier this year and came back with nothing they laughed him back to Blighty because he was arrogant enough to think he carried some weight so he called a vote and fell flat on his arse when he got nothing .

If your rational and well thought out process is staying in and changing nothing and asking your staff to bring you solutions rather that working the problem out with them then sorry my way of working through a problem is to sit round a table and work it out between us.....something that certainly will not happen at the EU big table.

lee666 · Post by **lee666** » Wed 18 May 2016 6:34 pm

Waz

My post was put up for two reasons, one on how well Norway have done by not joining the EU and second with regards to the scaremongering tactics used by Cameron, his cronies that he has trotted out over the last few weeks & you.

People have already made up there minds and I personally think within the U.K. and British people outside of the U.K. in the IN group are starting to worry about a successful OUT vote.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 6:56 pm

lee666
I am pleased for Norway. The referendum in the UK is about leaving the Union after 40 years. A very different scenario to joining or not to join.
If the UK was in similar ( Norway) position today then I would certainly look differently at the possibilities. China indeed was as small developing exporter 20 years ago and has become the 2nd largest economy in the World. I am sorry you think my writings are scaremongering. I post based on facts and experience from within UK manufacturing, conversations with European customers and suppliers as well as an understanding of global economic forecasting. Certainly the debate will continue until polling day and many I think remain undecided.

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Wed 18 May 2016 7:02 pm

Get Britain OUT of the EU! https://leave.eu/

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 7:07 pm

No these people are not elected...they are NON elected.
My lack of confidence is down to the downright inept bureaucratic way the EU is run, the wastage, the meddling, the shift of power, the complete and utter disregard for peoples lives and culture so sorry Waz I will continue to criticize until this entity is totally reformed.
You are correct I don't know what will happen if we Brexit but also you don't know what may happen also you have fear I understand that you personally may have more to loose but I am willing to give it a go.
We have heard all this crap about world wars, job losses, more expensive goods and generally the UK falling into a big black hole...
Let me ask you this... if this is the case why did Cameron give us the vote, was it just a vote grab... is he that naive?... or is it the fact he knows how bad an out vote will be and he is hoping that this won't happen either way he has been very reckless and you want us to trust his judgement ?.

So solutions you want hey,...you don't have any and neither do I if we stay we get the same old same old and if you think we can go back to the big table and renegotiate then convince me that "WILL".. not could happen because Cameron went there earlier this year and came back with nothing they laughed him back to Blighty because he was arrogant enough to think he carried some weight so he called a vote and fell flat on his arse when he got nothing .

If your rational and well thought out process is staying in and changing nothing and asking your staff to bring you solutions rather that working the problem out with them then sorry my way of working through a problem is to sit round a table and work it out between us.....something that certainly will not happen at the EU big table.[/quote]

When was the UK prime minister a non elected position?
Solutions. I am not looking for a solution. I see no issue with remaining in the Union. I do see issues within the EU that need reforming. certainly to leave the room is not a solution, Your own suggestion to sit around the table is credible but your suggestion to leave is NOT. Which way is it to be?
Your gun ho "give it a go" carries no credence. Your clear dissatisfaction in Brussels is noted but the wider picture and how it effects working people in the UK is far more important that the administrative issues you refer to. You have a vote in who runs the UK and Europe. these are valuable privileges and allow true democracy to function.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 7:22 pm

When was the UK prime minister a non elected position?
Solutions. I am not looking for a solution. I see no issue with remaining in the Union. I do see issues within the EU that need reforming. certainly to leave the room is not a solution, Your own suggestion to sit around the table is credible but your suggestion to leave is NOT. Which way is it to be?
Your gun ho "give it a go" carries no credence. Your clear dissatisfaction in Brussels is noted but the wider picture and how it effects working people in the UK is far more important that the administrative issues you refer to. You have a vote in who runs the UK and Europe. these are valuable privileges and allow true democracy to function.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 7:23 pm

Waz
I must apologise I misunderstood your post, I thought you were referring to "elected" EU members not Cameron ?
Anyway Cameron has little say in the EU...non elected bureaucrats make the decisions.

I am sure you will agree in a meeting where the 2 parties simply can not agree then sometimes it's best to walk away and move on, this happens every day in the normal world.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 7:39 pm

Turtle,
To walk away is the very last and non productive outcome.
Negotiate, negotiate, compromise and do a deal.
The Cyprus Problem is one such instance but not one that the participants are not in enough need for a settlement.
Mr Cameron and his team enter the room with the very best intention. I am certain. There are also some tough negotiators in Europe who also want the best deal. Reform is certainly needed. I estimate at least a 10 yr plan. Certainly I believe the Union now acknowledge the need for reform and change to accommodate the ever changing nature of Europe and indeed planet Earth. This can be done .

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 18 May 2016 7:51 pm

Waz
You have a lot of blind faith pal
If 28 tough negotiators have failed or allowed the EU to grow into what it is today do you really have faith in them same people changing it...I am a realist not a fantasist.

Here's one for you... I asked this question some time ago but didn't really get an answer.... Lets assume a Brexit next month do you really think the EU will allow one of its biggest cash cows to walk away?

The EU in a lot of respects need us just as much you say we need them... if we walk will the EU implode ?

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Wed 18 May 2016 8:22 pm

"...do you really think the EU will allow one of its biggest cash cows to walk away?..."
Errr...So when we all vote "Out", it won't mean a thing, or have any effect?
So...... I know! Everybody vote for me to be emperor of the world, and pay me trillions of dollars/pounds/lira every year - it will make me feel great, and it will not change anything in the slightest.....
"...The EU in a lot of respects need us just as much you say we need them... "
- so we've got them over a barrel; vote "Out" and they'll give us everything we want....although they won't let us leave....

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Wed 18 May 2016 8:25 pm

The consequences of leaving will be immediate, a fall in the stock exchange, a run on the pound and a possible rise in interest rates (to counter the run on Sterling). Already we hear that overseas investors are holding back awaiting the result in June. Any benefits from leaving will take some time to take effect since we have to negotiate our way out, and that could take years.
As for corruption, our own MPs were involved in an expenses scandal quite recently and many of the countries outside the EU that we trade with are pretty bent and undemocratic too, corruption is not unique to the EU.
My head says we should stay in but my heart says we should leave - Rule Britannia!

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 18 May 2016 8:29 pm

Turtle
To answer your question.
The Union value the UK. It will not implode without the UK. The Union does not view the UK as a cash cow, Changes to the economies of both parties will occur based on economics and commerce. At this moment the two way flow of trade is good and un hindered. This works for both parties and long may it continue. With a Brexit vote the UK is outside of the free trade agreements with other members. Trade instantly becomes more difficult because of the nature of trade with foreign countries, regulation, trade agreements, export import licences, tarrifs all come to play. The opportunity immediately arises for other suppliers of which there are many to seize upon the vacancy and opportunity. Furthermore and more importantly. Foreign investment into the UK have taken advantage of the free trade status that UK enjoys. The UK is the gateway to the European market of 400 plus million consumers and shoppers. These foreign companies, Toyota, Nissan , siemens, Honda, Viessmann, BMW etc etc will be presented with obstacles in exporting to Europe. Other countries will be quick to entice these same companies to come to the NEW gateway countries such as Spain, Poland, France where free trade comes with the territory.
The risk is significant and the uncertainty after a brexit will drive them elsewhere or at least revise investment plans. I expect a drastic reduction in manufacturing investment in the UK from overseas businesses. After all what advantage can the UK offer over say France or Spain?

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Wed 18 May 2016 10:56 pm

turtle wrote:Waz
You mention Lagarde,.. Her forcasts are worse than a weather girl
Cameron... Not to be trusted in anything he says
Carney..... a government puppet
Corbyn...... I can not believe you have mentioned this idiot
Obama..... Has a vested interest in his own country couldn't care less about the UK only our dosh.

There you are Ladies & Gents 5 very good reasons to GET OUT NOW.

Agree Turtle I would like to add
Lagarde -has head of a Troika organisation is hardly independent.
Cameron -was hardly pro EU pre election but now with talk of wars looks like he is working on a Manuel Barroso style retirement plan
Carney- part of the Banking sector that never saw the financial Crash,suddenly can see the future.
Corbyn- less said the better
Obama- US interest favour a strong alli inside a potential United States of Europe.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Wed 18 May 2016 11:37 pm

1 minute video by Prof of Economics Patrick Minford on the case of Brexit.
http://europeanpressagency.com/politics ... vantageous

lee666 · Post by **lee666** » Thu 19 May 2016 12:07 am

Kerry

Thanks for that, we could put hundreds of links on here but Waz will find fault with them all, he will always argue black is white.

I think will will prosper outside EU, we just need to take that first step.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Thu 19 May 2016 6:29 am

The worst case scenario if UK EXIT happens is...

We will have to listen to all those who voted to stay because they were afraid telling us it's all our fault every time anything goes wrong on the grounds it would not have happened if the UK was still in the union...

The Stay campaign has lost the plot totally unable to convince me of anything other than their desperation tactics.... next it will be the Bogeyman!

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 19 May 2016 9:04 am

Lee and Kerry.
Thank you, comments are noted.
Your critical views of the leading decision makers that I listed are also noted.
However, you both fail to offer any plausible alternatives and how the same will create prosperity for the "independent" UK.
Perhaps the Swiss or Norwegians could step in and show the UK how to succeed. But no, of course not, that will mean more immigration.

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