Have you watched the Brexit Movie ?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 4:25 pm

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 21 May 2016 4:38 pm

turtle wrote:
eu.jpg

I know I said I would not comment any more but really

1979 EU - 9 member states. Population 260 million, registered voters 180 million.

2009 EU - 27 member states. Population 500 million, registered voters 390 million.

UK MEPs per million of EU population

1979 - 3.21
2009 - 6.85

We have today over double the number of UK MEPs per million of EU population that we had in 1979.

(source for population figures http://epthinktank.eu/2014/03/12/turnou ... elections/)

Should the the UK leave the EU - number of UK MEPs to represent the UK within the European Parliament ? - ZERO !

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 5:04 pm

Erol
That statement is a load of rubbish ...and you know it.

We do not represent 500m people there are now 500m people in the EU there is a difference ? ..We now have less Mep's than in 1979 regardless of how big the EU now is our representation has dropped by 10% FACT

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 21 May 2016 5:37 pm

turtle wrote:Erol
That statement is a load of rubbish ...and you know it.

We do not represent 500m people there are now 500m people in the EU there is a difference ? ..We now have less Mep's than in 1979 regardless of how big the EU now is our representation has dropped by 10% FACT

We had 81 MEP's in 1979 through which we could influence the legislation in 8 other member states of around 200 million people. We now have 73 through which we influence the legislation in 26 member states of around 450million. Our ability to influence legislation in other countries, per MEP we have, has increased not decreased, by a factor of over two times, because the number of countries and people in them has increased. If we leave the EU our ability to influence legislation in other countries will reduce down to ZERO.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 6:00 pm

Firstly and has been said many times already Britain has little or no influence on the EU, if you believe they do then sorry you are wrong,... what you should say is the British EU members "should" have influence but sadly they do not.

You paint this picture of a British MEP standing up in front of 500m people and trying to influence them... how wrong is that !.

Yes the system SHOULD work for us to try and influence the rest but this does not happen so whatever the stats say or however you wish to dress them up this simple thing is ...it DON'T work.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 6:17 pm

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 21 May 2016 6:22 pm

It has been said many times by those that want the UK to leave the EU that the UK has no influence within the EU but where is the evidence to support this claim ? The reality is we have the same influence as every other member state, on some issues relative to population size and on others regardless of it - but no different to any other member of the EU. The reality is 90% of the time when the UK votes for something within the EU we get what we want. That reality does not support the claim that we have 'little or no influence' within the EU. You can argue that we get our way less often than other member states and in that case there would be evidence to support that claim but to say that equates to 'little or no influence' within the EU is to me just rhetoric not backed up by actual evidence.

There is also a 'paradox' in the whole 'leave' narrative about this. On the one hand the UK has 'little or not influence within the EU' and on the other 'the UK is a strong proud nation well able to make its way in the world alone and outside the EU'. So we are unable to influence the EU even when we are members of it and have equal power and representation within it as all other members, yet outside it we would be able to influence both the EU to continue to offer us all the terms we want from trade with the EU without any burden of having to abide by EU legislation or pay the EU and we will also be able to do so with the rest of the world as well. Can you see the contradiction here ?

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 21 May 2016 6:32 pm

turtle wrote:
eu7.jpg

http://europa.hs-pforzheim.de/jeanmonnet_biography.html

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 6:51 pm

I could reverse your statement of the fact that we normally get what we want in negotiations,...come on then show us what we got that was beneficial to the UK ?.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 21 May 2016 7:23 pm

turtle wrote:I could reverse your statement of the fact that we normally get what we want in negotiations,...

You could, and doing so is a means to avoid addressing the point I was making / question I asked. It also would be to ignore the fact that I am not the one who has claimed here "Britain has little or no influence on the EU" whilst also maintaining that the UK could easily secure from outside the EU the same benefits re trade and other things as it has within them, with the EU and everyone else. I have not for example claimed, as if it is some kind of unquestionable truth, that the UK outside of the EU would have little or no influence with anyone. I am of the opinion that in a scenario of say negotiating with China, the EU with the UK inside it would have more influence than the UK alone outside it would have but that is not to claim the UK would have little or no influence at all in such a scenario outside the EU, just that it would have less influence / power. That to me just appears to be common sense.

turtle wrote:come on then show us what we got that was beneficial to the UK ?.

You mean show you more examples of where being in the EU is beneficial, in addition to the couple I have previously shown and that have been largely ignored or 'poo pooed' out of hand by the 'outers' ? I could do so but really would there be any point in doing so ?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 7:46 pm

I suppose not Erol but I still think most of your claims are if's but's and maybe's and what "could" happen and not really convincing anyone what "will" happen.

As a resident of a country not trading within the EU I find your fanatism with the EU very strange ?

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Sat 21 May 2016 7:56 pm

Everybody's 'claims' are ifs, buts, maybes and what could happen.....
But what does appear to be proven on here is the old adage, "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still"....

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 21 May 2016 8:03 pm

Some interesting and well supported points from Erol.
I particularly support the notion that the UK together with other Union members will have a stronger deck of cards to play in world negotiations such as trade deals than either would if they were divorced.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 8:15 pm

Waz
Your whole argument is about trade deals,.. You have obviously got more to lose than most I am guessing ?
What about sovereignty,.. Law,.. Immigration.. Human rights etc etc.

I think if the in campaign continue to fight on trade alone then you will lose.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:13 pm

turtle wrote:Waz
Your whole argument is about trade deals,.. You have obviously got more to lose than most I am guessing ?
What about sovereignty,.. Law,.. Immigration.. Human rights etc etc.

I think if the in campaign continue to fight on trade alone then you will lose.

If you accept that businesses will 'lose out', then do you realise that every worker whose wages are paid by a business stands to lose out also?

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:19 pm

Keithcaley wrote:
turtle wrote:Waz
Your whole argument is about trade deals,.. You have obviously got more to lose than most I am guessing ?
What about sovereignty,.. Law,.. Immigration.. Human rights etc etc.

I think if the in campaign continue to fight on trade alone then you will lose.
If you accept that businesses will 'lose out', then do you realise that every worker whose wages are paid by a business stands to lose out also?

If - that's the thing - we are told financial ruin is a sure thing on the basis that trade will suffer as if that is a given without any proof...

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:24 pm

Keith
That is infact one of the mainsatys of my case to remain IN. It is the whole of the UK population that will loose out based on the economic forecast (which I agree upon) decline and loss of in ward investment. I cannot see a bright post BREXIT not at least for a decade or so and even then I think the Union will continue to move forward as a strength in the world. The UK, I believe will be isolated as a single ship in the doldrums.
You are absolutely correct in your statement. I most fear for youngsters of 20 -30 setting out to seek prosperity and a future in the UK economy. It is hard enough as it is. To carry the burden of economic decline, recession after a BREXIT will mean many youngsters will fall behind their European peer group and failure will prevail.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:29 pm

turtle wrote:I suppose not Erol but I still think most of your claims are if's but's and maybe's and what "could" happen and not really convincing anyone what "will" happen.

What claims have I made ? I have pointed out that 'certifying' products as safe once centrally across the whole EU is more efficient than doing so multiple times across individual nations. I have pointed out the example of where the EU is able to reduce mobile phone prices across and between the entire EU in a way that no country alone is able to do. I could also provide real evidence of how the UK being inside the EU has resulted in cheaper Car prices in the UK relative to the same cars in the rest of Europe. However there does seem to be little point in giving such examples, even when directly asked for them by yourself , when you just dismiss them anyway as being 'ifs and buts', even though they are no such thing, or of them being 'scare mongering' even though they are based on real evidence of what has actually happened and not 'ifs and buts'.

turtle wrote:As a resident of a country not trading within the EU I find your fanatism with the EU very strange ?

Really ? Are you really suggesting that it is strange that I have an interest in the referendum ? I am a UK citizen. I have a vote in the referendum. I have registered to vote in the referendum. I have family and friends that live in the UK. I have interests in ther UK. I am also a citizen of Cyprus, both the north and the south even though I have not taken up might right to a south ID and passport and Cyprus is in the EU. I am a citizen of the EU even if the UK chooses to leave. The referendum is imo the biggest single political vote I have had in my 50 years of being alive and 32 odd years of having a vote. Is it really that strange therefore that I have an interest in the subject and share my views on it here ? Really ?

For the record my belief as to why the UK should remain in the EU and seek to use it's influence to reform it, not for the benefit of the UK relative to other members, but for the benefit of the whole EU, the UK included, is not really to do with economics at all. I could and do respect arguments from 'outers' that say for them cheaper mobile phone calls or cars in the UK is not worth the compromises of being within the EU. However I do place importance on evidence and logic and thus find it much harder to respect arguments that just seek to deny what I see as realities, like something ARE done more efficiently centrally than separately, some things have become cheaper in the UK as a result of the UK's membership of the EU and by means and ways that the UK could not duplicate alone. Or 'arguments' based on mis quotes of an individual from over 60 years ago, presented as come kind of 'truth' as to what the EU is about today. These kind of arguments are much harder for me to respect if I am frank.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:33 pm

Grouch,
I certainly do not for see absolute financial ruin . The UK will survive. What is inevitable given a BREXIT is decline in investment into the UK. This leads to economic decline and all the associated negatives. I have posted at length on the specific reasons for this and the big financial guns within the UK and Europe have supported this ( Legrande, Carney). Any economic decline has a massive onward effect on the population. Employment, wages, house prices the cycle is a well proven formula that we have seen in numerous previous recessions. I do think the matter is clear cut. I do whish someone would put a case otherwise.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:47 pm

Waz
We have been here before and still you put your trust in 2 people Legarde & Carney who both have dismal records on forcasting ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/mark ... lures.html

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 21 May 2016 9:57 pm

Turtle
I will indeed pay heed to these pillars in the world of economics. It would be foolish not to. I have listened to their rational and it agrees with my own.
Who then should we listen to when it comes to economics and finance please
Not just 2 people.They are backed also by Cameron, Obama, Merkel, Corbyn Clegg.et al.
I do think you have already branded these world leaders as idiots which as I have said leads me to question your ability to make any rational decision upon a BREXIT.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 21 May 2016 10:07 pm

Turtle
Given your almost continual criticism of the Union administration, function and leadership, coupled with you clear dissatisfaction with the leadership of the UK, its bank governor, and other world heads of state.
I am struggling to understand what sort of Country you think the UK should be. Who will lead it and who will indeed take us to prosperity.
I envisage the UK lost at sea with absolutely no one at the helm because you've throw them all overboard.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 10:16 pm

Ok waz
Cameron has created this situation on Brexit...you can not disagree with that.
Obama has been working towards TTIB ....ulterior motive yes/no ?
Merkel ... Well the leader of the EU without doubt what she says goes
Corbyn.. Only a few years ago was a massive Out ....now suddenly changed his mind...can you really trust him ?
Clegg has always been a fanatical eurocrat... I have no problem with that however at the last election the British voting public gave him the biggest bloody nose for years and his party abandoned him.

Now are these the people you trust are you really sure ?

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sat 21 May 2016 10:37 pm

Groucho wrote:
Keithcaley wrote:
turtle wrote:Waz
Your whole argument is about trade deals,.. You have obviously got more to lose than most I am guessing ?
What about sovereignty,.. Law,.. Immigration.. Human rights etc etc.

I think if the in campaign continue to fight on trade alone then you will lose.
If you accept that businesses will 'lose out', then do you realise that every worker whose wages are paid by a business stands to lose out also?
If - that's the thing - we are told financial ruin is a sure thing on the basis that trade will suffer as if that is a given without any proof...

I have no idea who will prevail, or which outcome would be preferable...

My point was that turtle seemed to accept (did not dispute) waz's point that trade would suffer, and also seemed to believe that waz and his ilk (as business people) would be the only ones to suffer, as though the rest of the population were immune from, or not dependent on, the success of the businesses which pay their wages.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 21 May 2016 10:59 pm

Keith
I do not accept that that trade will suffer far from it I think that trade will continue in a simular fashion ...the simple fact about trade is nobody knows so lets stop speculating.
Business people will find business anywhere they look but if certain business people are dependent on a particular supply chain then they need to plan for when and if that supply chain changes.
If the EU is shackling the UK to it merely for trade purpose then this is wrong.
What is being suggested here is we need to accept all that goes with these trade agreement just to earn a few shilling this is wrong the whole demographics of the UK has and is still changing out of all recognition and i simply do not agree with it.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sun 22 May 2016 6:39 am

waz-24-7 wrote:Grouch,
I certainly do not for see absolute financial ruin . The UK will survive. What is inevitable given a BREXIT is decline in investment into the UK.

Well that's where we part company because I see a very rosy future for UK inward investment fuelled by the release from overbearing burden of EU regulation that no other b*gger in the EU seems to follow as religiously as we do...

It's your claims of inevitability that worry me.... there are many many people with a finger on the pulse of the UK Economy like Nigel Lawson who don't agree with you....

So who is right? We will never know if we don't try - one thing seems inevitable if we stay the EU will continue to hamper our values.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 6:57 am

Groucho
You are very much mistaken to take the view that EU regulation is hindering inward investment. It is quite the contrary. The UK as a trading gateway into Europe has attracted massive inward investment for the past 40 yrs.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sun 22 May 2016 7:00 am

turtle wrote:Keith
I do not accept that that trade will suffer far from it I think that trade will continue in a simular fashion ...the simple fact about trade is nobody knows so lets stop speculating.
Business people will find business anywhere they look but if certain business people are dependent on a particular supply chain then they need to plan for when and if that supply chain changes.
If the EU is shackling the UK to it merely for trade purpose then this is wrong.
What is being suggested here is we need to accept all that goes with these trade agreement just to earn a few shilling this is wrong the whole demographics of the UK has and is still changing out of all recognition and i simply do not agree with it.

Turtle,

As I understand from your quoted post, your objection to remaining in the EU is the changing demographics.

Am I correct?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 7:33 am

turtle wrote:Ok waz
Cameron has created this situation on Brexit...you can not disagree with that.
Obama has been working towards TTIB ....ulterior motive yes/no ?
Merkel ... Well the leader of the EU without doubt what she says goes
Corbyn.. Only a few years ago was a massive Out ....now suddenly changed his mind...can you really trust him ?
Clegg has always been a fanatical eurocrat... I have no problem with that however at the last election the British voting public gave him the biggest bloody nose for years and his party abandoned him.

Now are these the people you trust are you really sure ?

OK Turtle
Thanks for your down trodden analysis of these leaders.
Could you offer some plausible alternatives because if you are voting OUT because of this and without any solution, then we are indeed doomed.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 7:45 am

Turtle wrote
If the EU is shackling the UK to it merely for trade purpose then this is wrong.

We are not shackled to the EU. We have a referendum IN or OUT. Let there be no misunderstanding upon the importance of trade and commerce.
The UK like any country must earn foreign currency. That is what provides our population with work, prosperity and expectations for a better standard of living. Any threat to a decline in ability to earn or to win investment into our economy will lead to decline. I have given factual reasons why this will happen upon a BREXIT. Turtle, wrong or right. Trade and commerce is critical.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sun 22 May 2016 9:01 am

The solution is the out - whilst challenging (and there's nothing wrong with challenges as long as they are met with determination and effort) the UK to be better than its self-doubt expressed so eloquently by you Waz, (we are doomed etc. etc.) it will bring great motivation and with that the wealth and rewards that has been lacking for all but the filthy rich who only seem to get wealthier at everyone else's expense... This is not the politics of envy it is the realities of modern UK.

If the EU had curbed the ridiculous income increases of fat cats I could give it some credit but the gap between the hard-working man and the oligarchs getting an unjustifiable share of wealth for their relatively insignificant efforts has grown inexorably for the last 40 years....

BTW the UK bureaucracy is answerable to the elected representatives and this is where the EU bureaucracy differs because it is totally out of control and unchecked.

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Sun 22 May 2016 9:41 am

GET BRITAIN OUT.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 22 May 2016 10:04 am

waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle wrote
If the EU is shackling the UK to it merely for trade purpose then this is wrong.

We are not shackled to the EU. We have a referendum IN or OUT. Let there be no misunderstanding upon the importance of trade and commerce.
The UK like any country must earn foreign currency. That is what provides our population with work, prosperity and expectations for a better standard of living.

When you say OUR you mean EU population not just UK,
You appear to have done very well for yourself which you atribute to the EU and so rightly are very defensive about, however there are large swathes of people out there not sharing in this prosperity and have seen their expectations compared with their parents worsen, high rents, mortgage availability no long term job prospects, lack of apprenticeships.
I left school in the mid 70's with no qualifications ,in my ĺast job working for the government the department was mainly graduate's inc Law, Economics, Accountancy all of us needing to apply for our positions every 2 years, and to a person all looking for opportunities overseas, couple yes looking at the EU gravy train in Brussels /Strasbourg but in the most part it was Australia, NZ US & Canada.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 22 May 2016 10:50 am

Keithcaley wrote:
turtle wrote:Keith
I do not accept that that trade will suffer far from it I think that trade will continue in a simular fashion ...the simple fact about trade is nobody knows so lets stop speculating.
Business people will find business anywhere they look but if certain business people are dependent on a particular supply chain then they need to plan for when and if that supply chain changes.
If the EU is shackling the UK to it merely for trade purpose then this is wrong.
What is being suggested here is we need to accept all that goes with these trade agreement just to earn a few shilling this is wrong the whole demographics of the UK has and is still changing out of all recognition and i simply do not agree with it.
Turtle,

As I understand from your quoted post, your objection to remaining in the EU is the changing demographics.

Am I correct?

Keith
I am sure you have been following the debate on the 2 threads that are running on the EU subject and I think my reasons for "out" are very clear.
It is not just demographics its a whole raft of issues that turn me off the EU but the conversation always seems to come back to trade,.. now I accept that trade is vital to life but the very notion that we pay a lot of dosh to secure this trade is wrong and against thousands of years of people buying off people. The EU brought out one of its many silly rules about competition laws and then proceeds to use it against one of its members as a threat to stay.

On the subject of demographics I read in the press yesterday that the good old "Cockney" will have disappeared from London within the next 10 yrs ?
I hope that answers your question Keith

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 10:51 am

Kerry the swathes of people who are missing the "prosperity" cannot be attributed to membership of the Union. The issues you have listed are not exclusively British. These matters are more strongly linked to our own government. However all the issues can be linked to the UK's ability to generate foreign currency via international trade and business with foreign counties including those closest to our shores in the EU.
Certainly working, as you have, in the public sector is a classic scenario of private sector revenue being critical. The Private sector pays for the public sector. No private sector earning foreign currency leads to no or certainly less public sector jobs. I am afraid it all comes back to what we expect and what is achievable. My view is that OUT, the private sector will struggle to even maintain a current level of trade. Your public sector will consequently be under greater pressure . You cannot blame all your issues on the EU. The bigger picture is there to be seen.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 11:08 am

Turtle,
Your notion that the UK pays for trade is rather far off the mark. The UK contributes to the Union as all member states do. Indirectly the UK benefits immensely from the FREE trade protocol. In addition investment into the UK since joining 40 years ago has been massive on the basis that UK based business have the magic gate way into Europe. I think the "Cockney" will continue to be diluted as London like most of the World's cities has become rather cosmopolitan. Wealthy Chinese, Indian and successful world traders are buying up London property daily. Why? not because of the EU. Simply because they have the dollars and they can . Your fears will not be addressed by an OUT and close the doors mentality.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 11:16 am

Groucho wrote:The solution is the out - whilst challenging (and there's nothing wrong with challenges as long as they are met with determination and effort) the UK to be better than its self-doubt expressed so eloquently by you Waz, (we are doomed etc. etc.) it will bring great motivation and with that the wealth and rewards that has been lacking for all but the filthy rich who only seem to get wealthier at everyone else's expense... This is not the politics of envy it is the realities of modern UK.

If the EU had curbed the ridiculous income increases of fat cats I could give it some credit but the gap between the hard-working man and the oligarchs getting an unjustifiable share of wealth for their relatively insignificant efforts has grown inexorably for the last 40 years....

BTW the UK bureaucracy is answerable to the elected representatives and this is where the EU bureaucracy differs because it is totally out of control and unchecked.

Groucho
The distribution of wealth is indeed unfair and certainly the Worlds major economies are struggling to deal with the issue; mainly because wealth is power and power is difficult to challenge without high risk of failure. Governments find this issue very difficult the power of the banking sector is a classic.
However this major issue cannot be resolved by and OUT from the EU. I do think people posting on this discussion board are rather hopeful that an exit will solve all the UK's problems. It will not address the distribution of wealth within the UK.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sun 22 May 2016 12:21 pm

Waz

So you say - but the more you argue your case the less convinced I am.... you might want to think about that - or maybe not...

Where is your proof that the issues I've raised can not be solved by an out vote? If UK Government had the will they could pass a law limiting CEO salaries to 10 times the average salary within each company... this used to be the norm at one time... by gentlemen's agreement. The trouble now is there are very few gentlemen in business that feel obliged to be fair. They need to be forced to fair...

The EU is proof enough to me that is a broken machine and far from repair (which I feel an impossible task given the way it works) it needs ditching.

Keep using words like 'doom' and we'll all know there is no foundation to your argument....

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 22 May 2016 12:41 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Kerry the swathes of people who are missing the "prosperity" cannot be attributed to membership of the Union. The issues you have listed are not exclusively British. These matters are more strongly linked to our own government. However all the issues can be linked to the UK's ability to generate foreign currency via international trade and business with foreign counties including those closest to our shores in the EU.
Certainly working, as you have, in the public sector is a classic scenario of private sector revenue being critical. The Private sector pays for the public sector. No private sector earning foreign currency leads to no or certainly less public sector jobs. I am afraid it all comes back to what we expect and what is achievable. My view is that OUT, the private sector will struggle to even maintain a current level of trade. Your public sector will consequently be under greater pressure . You cannot blame all your issues on the EU. The bigger picture is there to be seen.

So it seems in your world everything good is atributeable to the EU everything not is domestic politics, public or private I've worked both ,its our not my pubic sector by the way.
I dont blame the EU for everything, zero hour contracts are not a EU initiative but brought by businesses much like your own confident in the large pool of labour the free movement regs bring, so membership of the EU indirectly effects everthing.
Its noted in previous post you described British who are struggling has failing or failed without any hint of irony.
You proudly told us how many foreign nationals you employ to a question I asked about racism but was apparently not so proud of your employment record on school leavers/apprenticeships which I asked in the same post.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 12:47 pm

Groucho wrote:Waz

So you say - but the more you argue your case the less convinced I am.... you might want to think about that - or maybe not...

Where is your proof that the issues I've raised can not be solved by an out vote? If UK Government had the will they could pass a law limiting CEO salaries to 10 times the average salary within each company... this used to be the norm at one time... by gentlemen's agreement. The trouble now is there are very few gentlemen in business that feel obliged to be fair. They need to be forced to fair...

The EU is proof enough to me that is a broken machine and far from repair (which I feel an impossible task given the way it works) it needs ditching.

Keep using words like 'doom' and we'll all know there is no foundation to your argument....

Grouch,
No doom and gloom here.
A I have said the distribution of wealth issue that you express concern over is NOT an EU legislative issue. An OUT vote will NOT address that particular concern.
I acknowledge you point that you think the EU is broken beyond repair. We are not voting to diispand the Union. That indeed would indeed be very different. If the UK leaves the Union I just cannot see any quick fix or plausible replacements for the many trade, travel, and investment benefits.
Do you please.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 12:58 pm

So it seems in your world everything good is atributeable to the EU everything not is domestic politics, public or private I've worked both ,its our not my pubic sector by the way.
I dont blame the EU for everything, zero hour contracts are not a EU initiative but brought by businesses much like your own confident in the large pool of labour the free movement regs bring, so membership of the EU indirectly effects everthing.
Its noted in previous post you described British who are struggling has failing or failed without any hint of irony.
You proudly told us how many foreign nationals you employ to a question I asked about racism but was apparently not so proud of your employment record on school leavers/apprenticeships which I asked in the same post.[/quote]

Kerry,
" everything good is attributable to the EU". Absolutely not. I reiterate that the EU does need to be reformed and this is on the cards now the tree has been shaken by the UK.
Zero hour contracts used by many multi nationals is not an EU issue so no discussion required under this debate. My own employment statistics likewise. Please remain focussed on the backbone debate which is IN or OUT of the European Union.

Dalartokat · Post by **Dalartokat** » Sun 22 May 2016 2:32 pm

For those interested The Sunday Politics Show today was a mixed bag regarding EU Referendum IN or OUT. Input from David Owen and the CBI and University Students.

At the very end Labour's Harriet Harman making what I thought, quite a statement, regarding 7 mugshots of people holding prominent positions in EU and not knowing who any of them were(not that I knew either, but assume people voting IN and in politics, encouraging the electorate to do so also, would at least know a couple).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... t-22052016

Should point out also this is the South East version.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 22 May 2016 3:12 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle,
Your notion that the UK pays for trade is rather far off the mark. The UK contributes to the Union as all member states do. Indirectly the UK benefits immensely from the FREE trade protocol. In addition investment into the UK since joining 40 years ago has been massive on the basis that UK based business have the magic gate way into Europe. I think the "Cockney" will continue to be diluted as London like most of the World's cities has become rather cosmopolitan. Wealthy Chinese, Indian and successful world traders are buying up London property daily. Why? not because of the EU. Simply because they have the dollars and they can . Your fears will not be addressed by an OUT and close the doors mentality.

Waz
The borough's of east London, Barking, Dagenham, Tower Hamlets & Newham have an average unemployment of over 10% there are no wealthy Chinese, Indians and wealthy business people in this area. It is the most deprived and least well off in London and the "Cockneys" have up and left.
Diverse yes,.. cosmopolitan ??

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 3:50 pm

Turtle,
Yes you are very likely correct. Another result of populous migrations that the world is experiencing. I believe there are some Cockneys now residing in the TRNC. I am certain that as London real estate prices continue to rise. Investors will soon be spotting opportunity. Not something that the BREXIT will be able to stop, if stopping the influx is what you would think should happen.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sun 22 May 2016 4:09 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:So it seems in your world everything good is atributeable to the EU everything not is domestic politics, public or private I've worked both ,its our not my pubic sector by the way.
I dont blame the EU for everything, zero hour contracts are not a EU initiative but brought by businesses much like your own confident in the large pool of labour the free movement regs bring, so membership of the EU indirectly effects everthing.
Its noted in previous post you described British who are struggling has failing or failed without any hint of irony.
You proudly told us how many foreign nationals you employ to a question I asked about racism but was apparently not so proud of your employment record on school leavers/apprenticeships which I asked in the same post.

Kerry,
" everything good is attributable to the EU". Absolutely not. I reiterate that the EU does need to be reformed and this is on the cards now the tree has been shaken by the UK.
Zero hour contracts used by many multi nationals is not an EU issue so no discussion required under this debate. My own employment statistics likewise. Please remain focussed on the backbone debate which is IN or OUT of the European Union.[/quote]

Where is the evidence that EU reform is on the cards ?
What reforms happened after the Irish shook the tree or is it only the mighty UK that can shake this tree then sit at the table?
Have you noticed any increase in apprenticeships in the last 30 years or so, and do you attribute the growth in school leavers going on to University down to a increase in wealth or because parents recognise the lack of opportunities?
I'm still OUT.
Free movement is not a level playing field and stifles opportunities for majority in UK
National Gov / Courts should have the last say in who comes who stays not EU, Abu Hamza played the european courts for years at our expense.
Because I believe in a good democracy I drag myself out on wet Thursday night after work to register my like or dislikes of a parties policies in a National election, but like the majority of europeans dont bothrr because it makes no difference in a euro election.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 22 May 2016 6:40 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle,
Yes you are very likely correct. Another result of populous migrations that the world is experiencing. I believe there are some Cockneys now residing in the TRNC. I am certain that as London real estate prices continue to rise. Investors will soon be spotting opportunity. Not something that the BREXIT will be able to stop, if stopping the influx is what you would think should happen.

Waz
Make your mind up fella ?
If we Brexit you say inward investment will stop but you then say the rich Chinese & Indian business will still snap up London property if we do brexit ?

Which is it to be ... you can't have it both ways.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 6:53 pm

Turtle,
Private investment in real estate is vastly different to inward job creating industrial investment. Surely you can differentiate.
Private real estate investment will not be much effected by BREXIT as long as real estate values remain buoyant.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 22 May 2016 7:07 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle,
Private investment in real estate is vastly different to inward job creating industrial investment. Surely you can differentiate.
Private real estate investment will not be much effected by BREXIT as long as real estate values remain buoyant.

House prices are fuelled by a buoyant economy ...Surely you can differentiate.

But if the economy is going to tank and no real business interest in the UK then prices will surely drop...anyway that is according to your mate George Osbourne.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 7:17 pm

kerry 6138 wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:So it seems in your world everything good is atributeable to the EU everything not is domestic politics, public or private I've worked both ,its our not my pubic sector by the way.
I dont blame the EU for everything, zero hour contracts are not a EU initiative but brought by businesses much like your own confident in the large pool of labour the free movement regs bring, so membership of the EU indirectly effects everthing.
Its noted in previous post you described British who are struggling has failing or failed without any hint of irony.
You proudly told us how many foreign nationals you employ to a question I asked about racism but was apparently not so proud of your employment record on school leavers/apprenticeships which I asked in the same post.
Kerry,
" everything good is attributable to the EU". Absolutely not. I reiterate that the EU does need to be reformed and this is on the cards now the tree has been shaken by the UK.
Zero hour contracts used by many multi nationals is not an EU issue so no discussion required under this debate. My own employment statistics likewise. Please remain focussed on the backbone debate which is IN or OUT of the European Union.

Kerry
I will do my best to answer.
Other Union members have expressed their wish that the UK remains IN. The referendum is on front of every European newspaper. My view is that the UK with its world status and strong economic position has indeed shaken the EU tree. I firmly believe that if we remain IN then UK negotiators will be on front foot in future negotiations and discussions.
The apprenticeship scheme has only recently been re introduced to the UK employment market. Young people going to University is most definitely a positive thing. No education should be sniffed at and I whole heartedly recommend any youngster to go to college Further education or University.
If the UK (people) want to police migration from the EU and clearly be selective then yes vote OUT. This point seems to strike a nerve with many.
Yes we can close our borders and or even limit job opportunities to UK citizens only, how far do we go? However lets be under no illusion there will be consequences that will, in my view lead to recession and decline in the economic status of our country. The result of that decline is far more damaging than the fear that people have of immigration and the changing face of the modern world.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 22 May 2016 7:27 pm

turtle wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle,
Private investment in real estate is vastly different to inward job creating industrial investment. Surely you can differentiate.
Private real estate investment will not be much effected by BREXIT as long as real estate values remain buoyant.
House prices are fuelled by a buoyant economy ...Surely you can differentiate.

But if the economy is going to tank and no real business interest in the UK then prices will surely drop...anyway that is according to your mate George Osbourne.

Yes
House prices are reflective of the economy, confidence and supply and demand. A change in any of these factors will influence the Housing market.
Industrial and business investment is based upon securing commercial advantage in the European or indeed World market place.
George Osborne has made this case clear. I don't know him but because he is clearly IN i suppose that makes him my mate.

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