Have you watched the Brexit Movie ?

[turtle]

Turtle,
The EU member states including the UK are not so stupid to let Greece proceed unchanged. Increased taxes and austerity has been implemented under great duress and pressure from the EU. My point that within the decade Greece will be towing the line and contributing to the EU is my view and I am certain of it.
I am sorry you feel my comments offends. None intended. I have asked a question; you are invited to respond. Would you throw Greece to the wolves?
" This type of isolationism and, yes ,Xenophobia is not concussive to a strong and prosperous UK."
Hardly any name calling in this comment, Your own response will clarify the situation I think

Not all "serious" financial people would agree with you Waz... http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/01 ... -eurozone/

It is only you that think the UK would be isolated on Brexit, I feel that the UK would start to thrive again when we start to knock on doors around the world and start to deal with markets we are forbidden to deal with while a member of the EU.
I stated in an earlier post about what was happening in the UK regarding immigration and on a day to day basis our infrastructure creeks and groans under the pressure of more and more people drawing off the system...it simply can not continue at the rate it is this is not xenophobia...it's simple common sense.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle, I would not expect all to agree. George Soros is a Greek entrepreneur who has vested interest in the success or failure of the Greek economy.
Interesting how he relates to Greeks ability or lack thereof to compete in the Free Market economy. The UK does compete and wins.
I am absolutely not the only person to see the risk of isolation upon BREXIT. Listen to Cameron, Carney Clegg, Corbyn, Obama. or listen to Mr Farage.
Choices certainly.
The draw on the system is sustainable as long as the economy can pay for it and spending is sensible, controlled and reflects value for money.
Migrants within the UK add value: doing jobs of work that create wealth and revenue to the UK. All EU migrants pay tax and NI to the tune of millions of pounds. They spend in our shops and make a financial contribution to our infrastructure.
I think your view of a drain upon the system is rather unfounded. Indeed, are working ex pats in the TRNC a drain on the system or an asset to the economy. I think that reflects common sense.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle quote "start to deal with markets we are forbidden to deal with while a member of the EU."

I know of no markets that we are forbidden to deal with. That would be totally unacceptable. Unless there are directives upon for example selling arms to oppressive regimes and even then the UK would be involved in any such directives.The UK has an excellent record of global trade. Our Department of Trade and Industry do a sterling job in promoting Business Britain. It is the loss of the FREE Market economy ticket that is the grave concern that I have.

[Groucho]

Given the unlikely influence of the TRNC voters in the referendum I consider this debate an exchange of views and comments. No more than that.

That's a bit dismissive....

UK voters here and in the UK are able to exercise their voting rights and it may well matter....

Many UK based people read this forum...

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
I do hope that UK voters follow this forum as well as the many others that are running the topic of BREXIT.
Certainly , I think TRNC users are somewhat decided.
I expect campaigns to move into overdrive as the 23rd approaches.
I expect a good turn out and I do hope that people take a realistic and pragmatic view.

[turtle]

How many people think that if we vote to remain we will be voting for an ever closer union or maybe forced to accept the Euro or even become just a statistic of a European super state ?

[kerry 6138]

Elizabeth
Thank you for your comments. Of course the individual and ones individual opinions are respected.
There is indeed a large following for self governance, sovereignty and control of immigration. I do believe that in the modern world these matters are increasingly less important and difficult to support and implement. Take the British commonwealth for example. Once a world leading global domain. Now a mere shadow due the changing face of the world. Modern global issues ,in particular migration and immigration of peoples. Terrorism, security, religious differences, famine and drought. These are relatively new issues that challenge the planet and its survival as well as mankind in general. These issues need to be tackled by countries working together, sharing responsibility, taking on burden and problems together for the greater good. Isolationism, fear, xenophobia, and a closed door mentality can only lead to failure.

I was trying to take a break but feel compelled to comment I'm not a business expert has you are was 24 7 but isn't one of the reasons why the Commonwealth isn't a leading global domain anymore is because the free market you champion actually stops us being free to trade with them.
.Modern global issues migration, immigration does this include the £10 poms,Terrorism, security, religious differences are we including the Birmingham ,Manchester London IRA bombings.
Famines and droughts do you remember watching Live Aid a fantastic project started by a British news report galvanising the British and American music industry.

Kerry the decline of the commonwealth is a result of many factors. Great Britain aggressively undertook the expansion of its influence fuelled by its wealth, military power and determination. Today the World is made up of many more powerful economies that heave negotiated their independence. The UK will not return to those times. It does not have any of the necessary tools to hand. It is the likes of China and Russia that seem to be the modern day expansionists. Your historical references are likewise now old news and these examples are not repeatable or even templates for the future.
Certainly the Live aid example is relevant to the way that together. Things can be made to happen, To divorce Europe is not conducive to working together.

Was 24 7 it was you who called migration terrorism religious differences famines etc a modern global issue, I was mearly pointing out you dont have to be a member of the EU to deal with these we already have.
You are also mixing up your Empires & Commonwealth Britain has no more power in the Commonwealth than Tonga and has for expansionists the organisation has expelled countries.
Russia has intervened in neighbouring Georgia annexed the Crimea, China disputes islands in South China Sea, meanwhile The EU expands into the Baltic state's, Eastern Europe and is holding membership talks with countries in Asia minor up to the Caucuses.
The oldest democracy in the world in the meantime is battered and bullied into submission by the same organisation that overlooked the books when it suited them.
After 12 years of negotiations which organisation would not use the leverage of membership for a yes vote and accept half the island that voted no unless its overiding aim was not territorial.

[kerry 6138]

How many people think that if we vote to remain we will be voting for an ever closer union or maybe forced to accept the Euro or even become just a statistic of a European super state ?

we will certainly be seen has the country that cried wolf always threating to leave but couldnt quite do it and unlike Was 24 7 I dont see any great calls for reform from the organisation itself and we will have weakened our postition at any future talks.

[Groucho]

Groucho,
I do hope that UK voters follow this forum as well as the many others that are running the topic of BREXIT.
Certainly , I think TRNC users are somewhat decided.
I expect campaigns to move into overdrive as the 23rd approaches.
I expect a good turn out and I do hope that people take a realistic and pragmatic view.

Sounds more like you feel you are losing the argument and want to brush us off to me...

It would also appear that sound bites are your only argument - nothing of your own, only stolen maxims from the Stay campaign....

Do you feel like you are running out of ideas? Actually, I Don't think you have any ideas! It's all bluster to try and put the wind up those with a different view - actually those who have a view of their own - unlike your views which appear to be borrowed - and not well thought out at that.

I notice you shy away from actually answering any particular points merely brush them aside with a platitude that someone else has stated... not always a wise move.

The jam tomorrow argument, well not tomorrow may be twenty years according to you, is just too wishy washy, sorry but the UK needs to act decisively for once..

TRNC users as you call them (many of whom are UK based at this time of year) were probably not decided until the likes of you and your bonkers agenda starting holding forth on how the UK's movers and shakers know best and we should all vote like them because we should trust them... ha ha ha that's where you differ from the the average UK voter with a mind of their own... because they know full well the fat cats and all their cronies want to retain the status-quo which keeps their noses well and truly in the gravy...

The reputation of the UK establishment is at an all time low... so please don't condescend and patronise us with ideas that 'mummy knows best' and we are all silly little children for daring to disagree... We aren't - but you most certainly are.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself... I wonder who said that?

[WotNoDeeds]

Get Britain out of the EU

[kibsolar1999]

ahh at least one answer...

Erol wrote:
Reform of the EU I want greater transparency of EU Council meetings - publish minutes and also of groups like ECOFIN. Basically more transparency of those groups that actually pass EU law. I would also support some kind of system to sync up national elections across member states so that effectively an EU electorate had the ability to vote out the EU Council in 'one go'. That would be a good start for me.

I agree. More transparency is an issue all over the world. It is THE demand of the public.
With your suggestion of sync up electorates I would be careful.. (if you do not mean with “sync up” the different election systems ( as eg, d’hondt or Hare/Niemeyer ) in the single member states)

Eg, germany is a federation (and in the EU elections work quite similar).
A bundestag (1st parliament) is elected in whole of germany with direct mandates + a proportional election system and the Bundeskanzler (Merkel) is elected from parliament to form a government.
In 15 federal states apply more or less the same. The governments of the 15 “federal states” send reps to the Bundesrat (2nd parliament, in Europe you could say it is the European council…), which needs to agree with many laws.
These federal governments are often formed of parties which are the “opposition” in the Bundestag.
So, they often have to find a “compromise”. (eg, Merkel has no majority in the Bundesrat at the moment)
These elections are also not synced up.
Disadvantage could be that you never get a super powerful government (with all its dangers).
Advantage is that elections can not be that easily influenced by a “daily mood”, instead power “moves slowly” from one direction to the other and you avoid Gee!- Gee up! –politics.. which you can see in many countries.

so, you have to find more compromises and countries (or europe) becomes more stable and are not so "fragil", incl in terms of "legal security"...

[erol]

For me the EU Commission provides a 'continuity' element against the vagaries of short term political mood, but that rightly can not itself pass any legislation. For me a problem with the EU Council as the main democratic element within the EU that does pass legislation, other than lack of transparency, is that there is no means for the electorate to change this body at one single point in time. It is too easy for any given member of the EU Council (head of state of a member country) to use the 'excuse' (in conjunction with the lack of transparency) that they tried to achieve X but were 'out voted'. I imagine a future EU where EU wide constituencies of interest across member states could in theory if strong enough effectively replace the majority or all of the EU Council at one point in time. It seems to me that the easy way to achieve this would be to synch up the national / federal elections of all member states, so not only do you vote for a national / federal leader of your state but also for your states representative in the EU Council, all at the same time as every other member state does so.

[Groucho]

For me the EU Commission provides a 'continuity' element against the vagaries of short term political mood, but that rightly can not itself pass any legislation. For me a problem with the EU Council as the main democratic element within the EU that does pass legislation, other than lack of transparency, is that there is no means for the electorate to change this body at one single point in time. It is too easy for any given member of the EU Council (head of state of a member country) to use the 'excuse' (in conjunction with the lack of transparency) that they tried to achieve X but were 'out voted'. I imagine a future EU where EU wide constituencies of interest across member states could in theory if strong enough effectively replace the majority or all of the EU Council at one point in time. It seems to me that the easy way to achieve this would be to synch up the national / federal elections of all member states, so not only do you vote for a national / federal leader of your state but also for your states representative in the EU Council, all at the same time as every other member state does so.

An idea that would be hopelessly confusing and complicated to administer... BTW we don't all have the same first past the post system either.

The idea of an even more integrated super-state ought to be ringing more alarm bells than the UK voter can already hear...

[elizabeth]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... he-EU.html

Read and believe !!!

[erol]

An idea that would be hopelessly confusing and complicated to administer... BTW we don't all have the same first past the post system either.

The only change required would be when national / federal elections are held within member states. Not all member states have a first past the post system but they all have a single representative 'head of state' on the EU Council, that is determined by the outcome of their own national / federal electoral systems.

[turtle]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... he-EU.html

Read and believe !!!

I think most people know that if we stay the "integrated Super State" is only a formality and will happen sooner rather than later.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho,
I do hope that UK voters follow this forum as well as the many others that are running the topic of BREXIT.
Certainly , I think TRNC users are somewhat decided.
I expect campaigns to move into overdrive as the 23rd approaches.
I expect a good turn out and I do hope that people take a realistic and pragmatic view.

Sounds more like you feel you are losing the argument and want to brush us off to me...

It would also appear that sound bites are your only argument - nothing of your own, only stolen maxims from the Stay campaign....

Do you feel like you are running out of ideas? Actually, I Don't think you have any ideas! It's all bluster to try and put the wind up those with a different view - actually those who have a view of their own - unlike your views which appear to be borrowed - and not well thought out at that.

I notice you shy away from actually answering any particular points merely brush them aside with a platitude that someone else has stated... not always a wise move.

The jam tomorrow argument, well not tomorrow may be twenty years according to you, is just too wishy washy, sorry but the UK needs to act decisively for once..

TRNC users as you call them (many of whom are UK based at this time of year) were probably not decided until the likes of you and your bonkers agenda starting holding forth on how the UK's movers and shakers know best and we should all vote like them because we should trust them... ha ha ha that's where you differ from the the average UK voter with a mind of their own... because they know full well the fat cats and all their cronies want to retain the status-quo which keeps their noses well and truly in the gravy...

The reputation of the UK establishment is at an all time low... so please don't condescend and patronise us with ideas that 'mummy knows best' and we are all silly little children for daring to disagree... We aren't - but you most certainly are.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself... I wonder who said that?

Quite the contrary Groucho.
I have consistently given supported reasoning as to why I think the UK is better off remaining in the EU.
Your own presentations on why you think the UK will be better off and I mean more prosperous if we Leave are plainly absent, empty of fact and without reason. My view has not changed and this debate continues. Voters can listen to reasoned debate and make reasoned decisions. OR like yourself resort to rather tedious dysfunctional posts.
Could we please stick to the debate in question and present items of relevance and question.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry
Certainly. You are correct upon your comment about Russia and China as being the new expansionist regimes.
In comparison,the UK has a diminished level of power and influence on the world stage. This is my point. There is no plausible reason to suggest the decline will not continue. As a Union member the security of the UK is somewhat safer due to the size and influence of the Union as a group on the World stage. The UK is far more vulnerable to the battering and bullying ( from the new global powers) you mention if it was to stand alone.

[kibsolar1999]

Erol wrote:
..... I imagine a future EU where EU wide constituencies of interest across member states could in theory if strong enough effectively replace the majority or all of the EU Council at one point in time.... you vote for a national / federal leader of your state but also for your states representative in the EU Council.....
It may make the EU council “unable to work” for a longer time, as it may takes weeks or month until in the single member states coalitions are formed , not all member states have a presidential system.
Do you think to sync up also the elections to the european parliament? (and maybe federal (as in germany) and communal elections as well? The super super election sunday?
İt seems that, for the beginning, it would be much better to make the europeans aware that the elections to the european parliament are important (eg turn out in britain 35%) and strenghten the power of the EU parliament + the commission and limit the power of the EU council, eg the de facto veto right on some issues, eg on tax laws with all its privileges and “business ideas” as postboxes and patent boxes. Eg, here we have the typical blockers as ireland, as britain... , which cost the EU approx 1 trillion euros a year. (meaning: with a 30% of it, 300 billion, we could “cover all depth of greece” in 3 to 4 month)
Some (people in some ) nations are only and only thinking about their own advantages, basically using the EU and milking the EU since decades... or, eg, as regions as catalonia milked spain... now it is time to pay back, now they realise that it can not go on like this any more.. and now they want to realise their “stock profits” and want.... an exit.

[kerry 6138]

Kerry
Certainly. You are correct upon your comment about Russia and China as being the new expansionist regimes.
In comparison,the UK has a diminished level of power and influence on the world stage. This is my point. There is no plausible reason to suggest the decline will not continue. As a Union member the security of the UK is somewhat safer due to the size and influence of the Union as a group on the World stage. The UK is far more vulnerable to the battering and bullying ( from the new global powers) you mention if it was to stand alone.

Waz 24 7 nice try but again it was you who said Russia/China where expansionists, I was pointing out that there is no comparison when compared with recent and future EU expansion plans.
It was also clear has I was writing about the Greeks which organisations was battering and bullying , ask any Greek if they would swop auterity for ocasional fly by of a Russion bomber.

[Groucho]

Quite the contrary Groucho.
I have consistently given supported reasoning as to why I think the UK is better off remaining in the EU.
Your own presentations on why you think the UK will be better off and I mean more prosperous if we Leave are plainly absent, empty of fact and without reason. My view has not changed and this debate continues. Voters can listen to reasoned debate and make reasoned decisions. OR like yourself resort to rather tedious dysfunctional posts.
Could we please stick to the debate in question and present items of relevance and question.

Ooh I've touched a nerve!

You have stated in unconvincing rhetoric that you feel we are better off where we are I will grant you... a cushion against the vagaries of the free market that exists outside the EU and the 'feel-good' factor that you say we will lose if we leave. I say we will be more prosperous in the long-term because we won't have crippling membership fees to pay or ranks of bureaucrats to fund beyond those we need.

The EU has some advantages I've never said it was totally devoid of merit but the disadvantages seem to far outweigh these and we simply should not afford them...

Your view has not changed (you could be self-deluding or bloody-minded) but mine has, it's become like many on here, more determined that we should leave because we can see it for what it is - the stay campaign is based on fear and has no real argument that it can substantiate with fact. Only vague notions of being isolated and at risk which is total nonsense and they know it.

I simply can not understand Turkey's wish to join the EU but then they may just want an invitation only to turn around and say no thanks... they can be a bit like that.... contrary.

The more you protest the more I feel inclined to disagree... because you should know that we don't respond well to threats... real or imagined.

Give me a figure that we will have to fund that outweighs our net contribution to the EU as it stands to redress any loss of trade that 'might' occur... not that I think the international agreements on trade will allow for such an eventuality...

[Geoff1131]

kibsolar asked what specific things out voters wanted to change about the eu. Well for me there are a few issues. The uk fishing industry has been reduced to a fraction of what it was by the rules and regulations applied by the eu. The uk used to have their own fishing limits, I think it was 7 miles around the entire coastline but I may be wrong on the distance. The fishermen would catch fish and self control overfishing as it had a direct impact on their ability to continue in business. Now we have the quota system where fishermen have to throw back overboard perfectly good food so that they do not infringe on eu rules. What an absolute idiotic situation. Leaving the eu would allow the uk fishing fleet to operate within uk waters and control what and where they catch fish.

Farming, I have a very good friend of mine who farms in Cheshire. He has to let land sit idle so that the eu can control the amount of food produced to keep prices at their required level. He can and wants to provide more crops from his land but is under orders from the eu on what he can grow. We should allow the uk farm industry to provide the uk with food and yes export any excess, without having grain and butter and milk mountains building up to keep prices artificially high.

Immigration. I am in no way racist or xenophobic as some on this debate have accused some members. I would just like to see the uk government ( those people voted into parliament to govern our country ) be allowed to set figures of immigrants that the country can cope with. I am not against immigrants coming into the uk if they have jobs and have the type of skills the uk needs. I seem to remember Mr Camoron saying just this prior to his victory in the last election.

The economy. I do not believe for one minute that the uk will be permanently disadvantaged by an exit vote. The uk was the first Eurozone country to go into growth again after the last recession. Beating Germany France and all the other eu nations. So we have proved that the uk is more than capable of managing its economy.

But most of all I want the uk government to govern the uk. If the uk population votes to stay in this mad house then they should seriously consider abolishing the Houses of Parliament and let Brussels rule.

[mickhm]

My view is an age old saying

Fool me once - shame on you

Fool me twice - shame on me

we were lied to back in 72 and I don't see any reason why we are not being lied to now. They are self serving politicins and commissioners. Anything to keep the gravy train rolling along

[lee666]

Geoff1131 & mickhm

I have followed this thread and the other one and even posted a couple of times but for me your two posts say it for me.

Well done & thanks

[turtle]

Brexit takes the lead...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/e ... 9b9ed62ef9

[turtle]

Well worth a read...

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5 ... Brexit.pdf

[erol]

Well worth a read...

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5 ... Brexit.pdf

and I can not help but wonder if Groucho will be asking similar questions of this report as he did the one from the London School of Economics

http://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/v ... 50#p154160

and

http://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/v ... 50#p154171

[turtle]

But surely Erol the LSE report should have been independent and less biased where as the the one I posted hides no bias and unashamedly supports Brexit ?

[waz-24-7]

kibsolar asked what specific things out voters wanted to change about the eu. Well for me there are a few issues. The uk fishing industry has been reduced to a fraction of what it was by the rules and regulations applied by the eu. The uk used to have their own fishing limits, I think it was 7 miles around the entire coastline but I may be wrong on the distance. The fishermen would catch fish and self control overfishing as it had a direct impact on their ability to continue in business. Now we have the quota system where fishermen have to throw back overboard perfectly good food so that they do not infringe on eu rules. What an absolute idiotic situation. Leaving the eu would allow the uk fishing fleet to operate within uk waters and control what and where they catch fish.

Farming, I have a very good friend of mine who farms in Cheshire. He has to let land sit idle so that the eu can control the amount of food produced to keep prices at their required level. He can and wants to provide more crops from his land but is under orders from the eu on what he can grow. We should allow the uk farm industry to provide the uk with food and yes export any excess, without having grain and butter and milk mountains building up to keep prices artificially high.

Immigration. I am in no way racist or xenophobic as some on this debate have accused some members. I would just like to see the uk government ( those people voted into parliament to govern our country ) be allowed to set figures of immigrants that the country can cope with. I am not against immigrants coming into the uk if they have jobs and have the type of skills the uk needs. I seem to remember Mr Camoron saying just this prior to his victory in the last election.

The economy. I do not believe for one minute that the uk will be permanently disadvantaged by an exit vote. The uk was the first Eurozone country to go into growth again after the last recession. Beating Germany France and all the other eu nations. So we have proved that the uk is more than capable of managing its economy.

But most of all I want the uk government to govern the uk. If the uk population votes to stay in this mad house then they should seriously consider abolishing the Houses of Parliament and let Brussels rule.

Geof1131
Fishing has been a discussion topic for many years. It revolves around the fact that overfishing has depleted stocks to an unsustainable level. Our fishing industry remain on quotas in order to allow stocks to recover. Leaving the EU will not bring the fish back. Control ad management is needed and is implemented. If we exclude foreign trawlers then wave goodbye to the French and Spanish market for shrimp and prawn and other stocks.
To leave the EU will not provide a magic wand solution to essentially lack of fish.

Farming: Nail on the head. We export our produce into the free market economy and we are good at it. EU subsides are provided to farmers, The EU offers some regulation on output , not to price fix but to reduce waste and loss of capacity. The farming community is generally IN.

Immigration: EU migrants, without doubt provide economic advantage and prosperity to the UK.

The Economy: Thank you. Yes the UK economy is successful and can continue to be. To leave the FREE market economy cannot possibly be a positive move to continue this success.
The UK has an excellent democratic system and always will. The UK house of government works well, There is absolutely no notion that Brussels will ever become the home of UK government

[waz-24-7]

My view is an age old saying

Fool me once - shame on you

Fool me twice - shame on me

we were lied to back in 72 and I don't see any reason why we are not being lied to now. They are self serving politicins and commissioners. Anything to keep the gravy train rolling along

mickhm
What lies do you refer to in 72 please.
You paint a rather dismal picture of the UK current status. The UK has 2nd strongest economy in the Union and 5th Biggest in the world.
Is that not success? It is the UK that is comparatively on the gravy train.
What foolery do you refer to also?

[waz-24-7]

Brexit campaign have said that VAT on domestic fuel will be abolished if we leave the Union. Why ...well because the EU currently regulates that and therefore it must be bad.
Fact: The UK exchequer gathers significant revenue from VAT on domestic fuel. Tax on fuel has an effect of encouraging a more prudent use of energy. So if we remove it. The exchequer loose revenue. Brexit fail to offer any reasoning on how this loss of revenue will be covered. Perhaps they feel the UK can borrow more money. The economics of a Brexit just do not add up. The truth is the UK must earn foreign currency to sustain prosperity. This can only be achieved by selling goods and services to offshore customer base, including the Eurozone. This is what happens right now and it works well.

[Groucho]

My view is an age old saying

Fool me once - shame on you

Fool me twice - shame on me

we were lied to back in 72 and I don't see any reason why we are not being lied to now. They are self serving politicins and commissioners. Anything to keep the gravy train rolling along

mickhm
What lies do you refer to in 72 please.
You paint a rather dismal picture of the UK current status. The UK has 2nd strongest economy in the Union and 5th Biggest in the world.
Is that not success? It is the UK that is comparatively on the gravy train.
What foolery do you refer to also?

I think you'll find the looming super-state federation aspirations of the EU are what we never envisaged when we joined... It was meant to be a trading bloc with some legal joined-up thinking for a change - well it's gone way beyond what many feel is both acceptable in terms of meddling in domestic affairs of member states and imposition of regulations that do not sit well with our nations.

[Groucho]

Brexit campaign have said that VAT on domestic fuel will be abolished if we leave the Union. Why ...well because the EU currently regulates that and therefore it must be bad.
Fact: The UK exchequer gathers significant revenue from VAT on domestic fuel. Tax on fuel has an effect of encouraging a more prudent use of energy. So if we remove it. The exchequer loose revenue. Brexit fail to offer any reasoning on how this loss of revenue will be covered. Perhaps they feel the UK can borrow more money. The economics of a Brexit just do not add up. The truth is the UK must earn foreign currency to sustain prosperity. This can only be achieved by selling goods and services to offshore customer base, including the Eurozone. This is what happens right now and it works well.

May be it's a manifesto promise? Of course we've never heard of those being reneged on have we..... oh...

VAT on fuel does raise revenue - that is undeniable - but the old and infirm who feel they can not afford to heat their homes because of the high cost of energy are perhaps the reason to remove it.. Would you support VAT on water? I don't think even you think it's right but it would certainly raise revenue... Taxing a basic human need like domestic fuel is a very easy option but is it right...?

Maybe they should tax those of their cronies who manage to organise their affairs so that they don't pay UK taxes on their income...

[Geoff1131]

waz, you have not answered any of my points. You have simply ignored the bits that you do not like and curved the points that you feel you can counter.

Fishing..... The uk used to police the fishing industry and the fleet did their own bit by rotating the fishing grounds to keep fish stocks at a sustainable level. It was only after we joined the eu when huge ' factory ships ' were allowed by the eu to fish in and around uk waters that fish stocks started to drastically reduce. Then the eu in all its glory decided to put quota limits on what fish were allowed to be brought back to the docks and any fish that was outside the quota had to be dumped back ( more often already dead ) into the sea. Now please tell me where is the logic in this???? if the fish have already been caught and landed onto the trawler then what possible point is there in throwing them back into the sea???????

Farming,,, you say that the majority of farmers are ' onside ' with the eu regs. With respect, that is only your opinion and we will have a clearer idea of their position after the 23rd. My friend and indeed a lot of his collegues seem to hold the view that the uk would be better off outside the eu.

Immigration, you agree with me that the uk does indeed benefit from some eu immigration, and I do not dispute that. But you fail to see, or merely ignore the fact that the number of immigrant's that the uk can accept is being by far exceeded at the moment. What should the uk do about this??

The economy,,,, well we could talk about this all day and still disagree. I note that you say you have a business that relies on eu or other immigrants for the workforce and you export your goods to the eu. So it is no surprise that you wish the uk to stay in the eu. Maybe if I had such a company , my views would be different who knows. But there are an awful lot of businesses in the uk that would be better off if the uk was outside the eu. There was a program on bbc last night where a company on the south coast, hand making hovercraft was penalised by eu regulations and have lost a £100000 contract to sell its goods in Brazil because the eu have a 100% export tariff on the companies goods sold outside the Eurozone. Tell the eighteen strong workforce that they are better off in the eu. And this is just one case, I am sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses like this.

[turtle]

Geoff
Absolutely right the UK is a nation of shop keepers and do not rely on the EU and I too have many Farming family friends and have yet to speak to one who is "in"

[elizabeth]

Has the penny dropped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -want.html

[Groucho]

Has the penny dropped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -want.html

Oh but we must not believe this as our wonderful leaders tell us it's not so....

So now that this has been said we are promised jam tomorrow... too late! I say too late...

The juggernaut that is the EU machine is on an irreversible crash course with the reality that member states don't like the way things are going - but who will rein them in? Nobody that's who...

[turtle]

"Donald Tusk said the EU had 'failed to notice' the goals of its officials differed widely from the ambitions of the people in different member states."

What a statement from old Tusky

[waddo]

UK, a Nation of shopkeepers - http://www.retailresearch.org/whosegonebust.php - another myth!

[Groucho]

UK, a Nation of shopkeepers - http://www.retailresearch.org/whosegonebust.php - another myth!

So - many shops - but how many new businesses opened? How many would open if we weren't in the EU with all its red-tape?

Statistics are a very blunt tool...

[WotNoDeeds]

GET ENGLAND OUT.

[turtle]

UK, a Nation of shopkeepers - http://www.retailresearch.org/whosegonebust.php - another myth!

Waddo

The Term "Shopkeepers" is a generalisation of a small to medium sized business....
The usual definition of small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) is any business with fewer than 250 employees. There were 5.4 million SMEs in the UK in 2015, which was over 99% of all businesses.
The fact that so many large retail business are falling on hard times is testament of our so called "Strong Economy" which is the real myth here ?

[waddo]

Visit any town in the Midlands and tell me how many small to medium sized "High Street" business's are now just boarded up shop fronts or have been converted into betting shops, payday loan shops or second hand shops. The term "Shopkeepers" and the idea that the UK is a nation of same is not only outdated but just more rubbish for the government to spout at working people. The real truth is that so many people think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and will jump at the chance without any "Real" information or idea of what is going to happen.

I posted this: Looking at posts #54 & #55 I considered the size of the "Expat" (Those who have moved out of the UK on a permanent basis and not those lovingly described as "Swallows") population in the TRNC to be to small to be of any significant value to the discussion. As a member of Angloinfo I also took part in their similar poll. Perhaps the results of this will be of more value to the "Expat" population in the TRNC - perhaps not, your choice:

Angloinfo readers vote to stay

More than 4,500 of you who hold UK citizenship participated in the Angloinfo Brexit survey last month. The results were overwhelming with fewer than 3 in 10 planning to vote 'leave.' The numbers were even higher among those who are ineligible to vote, having lived abroad for 15 years or more. Over 80 per cent of this group would vote 'stay' if they could.

http://blogs.angloinfo.com/angloinfo-wo ... Newsletter

On the other "discussion" thread that deals with "Poll" but have had no response at all - wonder why, perhaps facts are not really required.

[Groucho]

Visit any town in the Midlands and tell me how many small to medium sized "High Street" business's are now just boarded up shop fronts or have been converted into betting shops, payday loan shops or second hand shops. The term "Shopkeepers" and the idea that the UK is a nation of same is not only outdated but just more rubbish for the government to spout at working people. The real truth is that so many people think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and will jump at the chance without any "Real" information or idea of what is going to happen.

I posted this: Looking at posts #54 & #55 I considered the size of the "Expat" (Those who have moved out of the UK on a permanent basis and not those lovingly described as "Swallows") population in the TRNC to be to small to be of any significant value to the discussion. As a member of Angloinfo I also took part in their similar poll. Perhaps the results of this will be of more value to the "Expat" population in the TRNC - perhaps not, your choice:

Angloinfo readers vote to stay

More than 4,500 of you who hold UK citizenship participated in the Angloinfo Brexit survey last month. The results were overwhelming with fewer than 3 in 10 planning to vote 'leave.' The numbers were even higher among those who are ineligible to vote, having lived abroad for 15 years or more. Over 80 per cent of this group would vote 'stay' if they could.

http://blogs.angloinfo.com/angloinfo-wo ... Newsletter

On the other "discussion" thread that deals with "Poll" but have had no response at all - wonder why, perhaps facts are not really required.

Not sure what fact you think should be discussed.... is it that inside the EU many shops have closed? Is it that the number of expats is or is not a sample?

The point you are trying to make is unclear to me as the phrase "Visit any town in the Midlands and tell me how many small to medium sized "High Street" business's are now just boarded up shop fronts or have been converted into betting shops, payday loan shops or second hand shops." seems to indicate that EU membership may not have been all that good and we are not thriving but your reference to the AngloInfo poll would indicate they don't care... so what is it?

[WotNoDeeds]

GET ENGLAND OUT .



POISON KEEP AWAY.

[waddo]

Groucho,

I understand that the title of this thread was "Have you watched the Brexit movie?", since the thread started it degenerated into a bun fight between In's & Out's with various claims of doom and glee from both sides - the main theme of the thread has been cast aside as per normal.

In msg 239 I posted a reply to a claim that the UK was a Nation of shopkeepers - facts. I was then informed that the term "Shopkeepers" was a generalization of an SME and given the facts and figures on how good it is. I replied with a statement on what is happening every day in the Midlands - simple to follow really.

The second part of my post gave information available at the URL presented - simple to follow, non argumentative and I could really care less what people make of it but the fact is, that it is a fact! Expats seem more likely to vote IN than OUT.

So there you have it - two separate items dealt with in a single post. Neither of which - similar to 90% of the discussion on this thread has anything to do with the thread at all. Discuss it at your leisure but as an expat (one who has left the UK for good) I remain concerned that an OUT vote will reduce the value of the pound sterling by a considerable amount. That's it from me. Good luck to both on the 23rd of June and I do hope that everyone gets exactly what they expect because there is precious little hard fact and information available to the man in the street to allow them to make a logical decision.

[turtle]

Groucho,

I understand that the title of this thread was "Have you watched the Brexit movie?", since the thread started it degenerated into a bun fight between In's & Out's with various claims of doom and glee from both sides - the main theme of the thread has been cast aside as per normal.

In msg 239 I posted a reply to a claim that the UK was a Nation of shopkeepers - facts. I was then informed that the term "Shopkeepers" was a generalization of an SME and given the facts and figures on how good it is. I replied with a statement on what is happening every day in the Midlands - simple to follow really.

The second part of my post gave information available at the URL presented - simple to follow, non argumentative and I could really care less what people make of it but the fact is, that it is a fact! Expats seem more likely to vote IN than OUT.

So there you have it - two separate items dealt with in a single post. Neither of which - similar to 90% of the discussion on this thread has anything to do with the thread at all. Discuss it at your leisure but as an expat (one who has left the UK for good) I remain concerned that an OUT vote will reduce the value of the pound sterling by a considerable amount. That's it from me. Good luck to both on the 23rd of June and I do hope that everyone gets exactly what they expect because there is precious little hard fact and information available to the man in the street to allow them to make a logical decision.

I started the thread with a view it may stimulate discussion on the merits of in or out and in my opinion it has not degenerated into a bun fight as you put it but has brought people into the debate so their views can be aired...so the main theme of the thread has in my opinion been achieved.

You seem to have an issue with the term "shopkeepers" perhaps I should have said "Small Business" then there would have been no confusion and I gave no evidence of how good it is merely that the bulk of the UK is made up of "small Businesses" which it is you can't argue with this ?.

You say 90% of comments on this thread have nothing to do with the topic ?....not sure what you are reading but it all looks fine to me but maybe its your attempt to upset the thread and have it stopped......that would be a shame.

[waz-24-7]

I am encouraged today to read that the TUC trade union have lined up behind the IN campaign, Based upon the rights of working people and to safeguard jobs that in part rely on access and trade to the FREE single market economy. The largest market on the Planet.

I remain dismayed that many people still find fault with the massive support for IN from Political leaders, financiers, entrepreneurs, trade unions. There will certainly be some casualties with a BREXIT as some are forced to go the extra mile to trade and meet European legislation. This is not a reason to leave the Union.
The fact remains as a Union Member, as we are today, the UK has a strong economy and enjoys freedom of travel like almost no other nationality.
Too many people are far too quick to blame Europe for issues that will exist IN or OUT.

[turtle]

Waz
Can't really see the rights of working people changing on Brexit ?
How do you base these facts ?

[Keithcaley]

Waz
Can't really see the rights of working people changing on Brexit ?
How do you base these facts ?

turtle, he didn't attempt to do so.

The TUC did.

Ask them !

The relevant bit of the post reads ".....the TUC trade union have lined up behind the IN campaign, Based upon the rights of working people.....'.