And now, "Lexit The Movie"

[PapaBravo]

This; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4 is another angle on Brexit. It is 60 minutes long.

This video supports Brexit, but I am happy to view any that purport to make the case for Remain, if there are any.

[jofra]

"This video purports to make the case for Brexit, but I am happy to view any that support Remain, if there are any....."

[PapaBravo]

Edited excerpts from the Sunday Telegraph Editorial. Yes I know it is biased towards Brexit, but at least it provides a well articulated viewpoint.

"Perhaps the biggest concern among those still unsure how to vote is the impact on trade. From the Chancellor and the Governor of the Bank of England to the CBI and the IMF, we have been warned that our ability to trade will be impaired. But why should this be so? Many countries trade with the EU without being members of it.

Moreover, the idea that we benefit from membership is belied by the fact that the UK is currently running the biggest trade deficit in its history with the Eurozone nations, and especially with Germany. The fact is, we do not need a trade deal in order to sell and buy goods; and the contention that we will spend the next 10 years in some sort of economic limbo while we negotiate a new relationship with our neighbours is simply risible.

Another problem with the EU has been its propensity to regulate and legislate. About 50 per cent of our laws and 70 per cent of our regulations originate in Brussels, according to most experts, which means that the EU’s regulatory powers far exceed those of the British government. There are more than 17,000 EU Acts in force in 20 areas of competence. If the regulatory burdens were lifted only marginally, businesses would be liberated to create thousands of new jobs.

In creating its own foreign policy and military forces the EU risks undermining the body that has actually kept the peace in Europe for 60 years, namely Nato. Furthermore, whenever the EU has sought to exert its diplomatic influence, as in the Balkans and, more recently, Ukraine, its meddling has been calamitous. The EU’s clumsy overtures to Ukraine, with the offer of an “association agreement”, gave President Putin added incentive to intervene militarily.

On immigration, too, decisions taken by Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, last year precipitated a crisis that has only abated after promises were made to Turkey about future membership and vast sums were pledged to Ankara to stop the flow of refugees into Europe.

There is a world beyond Europe that the Remain camp simply ignores. A world that offers enormous opportunities for Britain to be a global player once more. Even David Cameron and other leaders of Remain concede that the EU is a flawed project: hence that intense round of negotiations last February for a new relationship between the UK and the EU that, frankly, reaped nothing. Mr Cameron now holds out the prospect of further reforms without any evidence that they will ever be forthcoming. And if we vote to stay, why would they be?

Remain relies, therefore, on the fear of what Brexit might bring. Yet why should we fear it? Once we have left and are no longer subject to the free movement of labour, popular worries about immigration will become a matter for the British government and for Parliament. This does not mean there will be no immigration; quite the contrary. People will be welcome to come and work in the country and visitors and tourists will flock here as they always have. But we will control our own borders; we will let in who we want to come and contribute to our economy. And if the country does not like the way the Government is conducting its immigration policy then it can turf it out. As things stand, there is nothing that can be done.

The case for Leaving is not negative and jingoistic. It is optimistic and hopeful. It is the case for a strong, independent and outward-looking Britain. Just as in 1973, when we joined the Common Market, we are at a crossroads in our history. The path we took then offered much but led us into a cul-de-sac, hemmed in by a sclerotic, hide-bound, rules-obsessed, inward‑looking institution.

[Cally]

I have tried to follow all the comments on the previous "Brexit" thread bit sometimes it got so bogged down I got completely lost. This post to me says all I think & hopefully we will be able to go forward with free trade. Our trade history was better when we manufactured so much but unfortunately through the need for cheaper & cheaper goods China has stepped in. I still believe our trading history will see us through.

[jofra]

Wow!
I haven't actually bothered looking at any of the myriad of links that have been/will be posted by both sides; I assume that all of them will be reports (or extracts) that have been published over the years, or recently concocted arguments, all picked to support one point of view or the other - so it's just a matter of "choose what you want to believe!", or research everything (from before and after joining the EU) - i.e. learn history - and then try to guess what will follow....
Apart from that, I was merely having a quiet little chuckle as to how opposing sides would have worded the original comment...

[£eagle]

Cyprus is so riddled with corruption and cronyism that it can hardly be called a true democracy. Yet there are 13 other countries in the EU which are rated as more corrupt. Together they control about half the MEPs, Commissioners and nominated bureaucrats. When the 4 Balkan countries join (Turkey too?) - all in the super corrupt league - they will have a clear majority in the EU.
The UK is already pretty powerless inside the EU, see how Cameron with his begging bowl was thrown out on his ear. With the crooks in total control the tentacles of corruption will squeeze Britain dry so that even Goldman Sachs will look like saints.
The choice is between accountable clean(ish) government or being led by the nose by an unaccountable federation of corrupted states.

[waz-24-7]

Edited excerpts from the Sunday Telegraph Editorial. Yes I know it is biased towards Brexit, but at least it provides a well articulated viewpoint.

"Perhaps the biggest concern among those still unsure how to vote is the impact on trade. From the Chancellor and the Governor of the Bank of England to the CBI and the IMF, we have been warned that our ability to trade will be impaired. But why should this be so? Many countries trade with the EU without being members of it.

Moreover, the idea that we benefit from membership is belied by the fact that the UK is currently running the biggest trade deficit in its history with the Eurozone nations, and especially with Germany. The fact is, we do not need a trade deal in order to sell and buy goods; and the contention that we will spend the next 10 years in some sort of economic limbo while we negotiate a new relationship with our neighbours is simply risible.

Another problem with the EU has been its propensity to regulate and legislate. About 50 per cent of our laws and 70 per cent of our regulations originate in Brussels, according to most experts, which means that the EU’s regulatory powers far exceed those of the British government. There are more than 17,000 EU Acts in force in 20 areas of competence. If the regulatory burdens were lifted only marginally, businesses would be liberated to create thousands of new jobs.

In creating its own foreign policy and military forces the EU risks undermining the body that has actually kept the peace in Europe for 60 years, namely Nato. Furthermore, whenever the EU has sought to exert its diplomatic influence, as in the Balkans and, more recently, Ukraine, its meddling has been calamitous. The EU’s clumsy overtures to Ukraine, with the offer of an “association agreement”, gave President Putin added incentive to intervene militarily.

On immigration, too, decisions taken by Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, last year precipitated a crisis that has only abated after promises were made to Turkey about future membership and vast sums were pledged to Ankara to stop the flow of refugees into Europe.

There is a world beyond Europe that the Remain camp simply ignores. A world that offers enormous opportunities for Britain to be a global player once more. Even David Cameron and other leaders of Remain concede that the EU is a flawed project: hence that intense round of negotiations last February for a new relationship between the UK and the EU that, frankly, reaped nothing. Mr Cameron now holds out the prospect of further reforms without any evidence that they will ever be forthcoming. And if we vote to stay, why would they be?

Remain relies, therefore, on the fear of what Brexit might bring. Yet why should we fear it? Once we have left and are no longer subject to the free movement of labour, popular worries about immigration will become a matter for the British government and for Parliament. This does not mean there will be no immigration; quite the contrary. People will be welcome to come and work in the country and visitors and tourists will flock here as they always have. But we will control our own borders; we will let in who we want to come and contribute to our economy. And if the country does not like the way the Government is conducting its immigration policy then it can turf it out. As things stand, there is nothing that can be done.

The case for Leaving is not negative and jingoistic. It is optimistic and hopeful. It is the case for a strong, independent and outward-looking Britain. Just as in 1973, when we joined the Common Market, we are at a crossroads in our history. The path we took then offered much but led us into a cul-de-sac, hemmed in by a sclerotic, hide-bound, rules-obsessed, inward‑looking institution.

PAPA BRAVO
Thursdays vote is not for a change of government. You may disagree with Merkel but at least we are in the same room and able to influence reform and progress. Alone and isolated that right is forfeited. Criticism is very easy indeed problem solving and resolution more difficult but far more rewarding.
There is indeed a world beyond Europe. Do you not think the UK has not been an active productive leading member on the world stage. As a sole player outside of the Union the UK influence is certainly diminished. Should we cut the phone lines to our European neighbours in the hope that they will at least write to us. This vote is far wider than deserting the EU it is about participating on the World stage as a leader and Country that can resolve world issues in a fashion that has been the respected British way for centuries.

Not economic limbo as you quote.. Economic decline is certain as investment into the UK goes else where because the door to the FREE market economy has been closed.. Investment into the UK is a massive influence upon its people ,and its prosperity . Jobs, services, welfare all rely on our ability to earn foreign currency. This is not a fear this is a sure fire fact, The only uncertainty is the level of loss and cost that a BREXIT will have upon the economy and its workforce as well as people on the street.
The case to leave is economically very weak indeed. I see no actual facts to relay any economic benefit or indication how we will be better off and more prosperous. Hope and optimism count rather little when people have bills to pay and mouths to feed.
Your continued criticism of the Union and its administration is ongoing. My message is work to secure advantageous reform, negotiate, lead from the front and secure continued growth and prosperity OR run, close the doors and hide under the bed.

[waz-24-7]

Cyprus is so riddled with corruption and cronyism that it can hardly be called a true democracy. Yet there are 13 other countries in the EU which are rated as more corrupt. Together they control about half the MEPs, Commissioners and nominated bureaucrats. When the 4 Balkan countries join (Turkey too?) - all in the super corrupt league - they will have a clear majority in the EU.
The UK is already pretty powerless inside the EU, see how Cameron with his begging bowl was thrown out on his ear. With the crooks in total control the tentacles of corruption will squeeze Britain dry so that even Goldman Sachs will look like saints.
The choice is between accountable clean(ish) government or being led by the nose by an unaccountable federation of corrupted states.

£eagle.
Pleas remember that the UK is the 2nd strongest member of the Union and has significant influence and power hardly a powerless situation.. You are clearly dissatisfied with the present status. This is no reason to up sticks and leave given the clear indication of the damage that will be inflicted upon the UK economy. A stand alone UK government will loose credibility and influence on the world stage and our economic position will further decline. The major economies of the world are large, effective and influential. For the past two decade the EU is viewed as a major economy of over 500 million consumers. To leave this economy and hope to remain as influential is a non starter.

[waz-24-7]

I have tried to follow all the comments on the previous "Brexit" thread bit sometimes it got so bogged down I got completely lost. This post to me says all I think & hopefully we will be able to go forward with free trade. Our trade history was better when we manufactured so much but unfortunately through the need for cheaper & cheaper goods China has stepped in. I still believe our trading history will see us through.

Cally,
To depend upon historical successes is hope surely but the ever changing modern world will not allow that success to return under similar terms.
Chinese, Indian investment into the UK is now massive and creates welcomed employment and prosperity. The EU FREE trade market allows goods made in he UK to be sold into the EU without hindrance. The car industry is the classic with foreign owned UK car plants exporting vehicles daily into the EU FREE market economy. A BREXIT will effectively close this gateway and hinder the free trade enjoyed. I see a migration of manufacturing and jobs back into Europe so as to re establish the gateway. The loss to the UK economy and loss of jobs is frightening.

We will not be able to stop the worlds desire for cheaper products. The UK must run with the markets, cease opportunities, compete on all fronts and seek prosperity. A BREXIT vote will certainly NOT present opportunities for such success.

[mickhm]

Do you know what? I was married for 27years. At first it was good we had our little disagreements but as time went on these grew larger and of more importance and personal. we tried all the usual steps, romantic holidays, visits to the GP marriage guidance but we were still miserable and unhappy so we eventually went for a divorce. Of course I lost a lot, house, kids etc but afterwards I knew I was free. I looked around and started again. Within two years I was with my new wife and 2 years later I took voluntary redundancy and came to live here. I may not be rich but I am comfortable and above all I am HAPPY.

When will some people realise that no matter how much you put into a relationship often the best way forward is a divorce and start again.

[Groucho]

Cally,
To depend upon historical successes is hope surely but the ever changing modern world will not allow that success to return under similar terms.
Chinese, Indian investment into the UK is now massive and creates welcomed employment and prosperity. The EU FREE trade market allows goods made in he UK to be sold into the EU without hindrance. The car industry is the classic with foreign owned UK car plants exporting vehicles daily into the EU FREE market economy. A BREXIT will effectively close this gateway and hinder the free trade enjoyed. I see a migration of manufacturing and jobs back into Europe so as to re establish the gateway. The loss to the UK economy and loss of jobs is frightening.

We will not be able to stop the worlds desire for cheaper products. The UK must run with the markets, cease opportunities, compete on all fronts and seek prosperity. A BREXIT vote will certainly NOT present opportunities for such success.

You say that - you keep saying that - over and over again - if you repeat it often enough you may even fool some into thinking you are right but many may go the other way and choose to discount your attempts at brow-beating with statements you say are 'clear' and 'fact' ... When what we do know is fact we will prosper because we don't need to be part of a group that has reached a critical mass and is about to blow-up in everybody's faces....

All the claims about loss of trade are fear-based hype put forward to press the remain case when there is no truth in the claims whatsoever because WTO and GAT agreements already ensure our trade with the world at large.... We are a 10 times net importer of EU goods for heaven's sake...

Claiming that we will lose that trade is counter to the stay argument.

We are hampered by the status quo. We are not stuck with the status quo... We can seize opportunities without the EU thank you very much...

BTW I think you mean seize not cease....

[£eagle]

Waz,
No doubt there are many areas in which UK interests are aligned with those of the EU. In all areas where there has been divergence the position of the UK has been overruled (per Brexit Movie). Not much influence there.
The UK has no international presence or influence separate from the EU. Its international influence within the UN, nato, the Commonwealth are all unrelated to the EU. So, by leaving it may gain more influence on the world stage.
There is an economic uncertainty but even Cameron has said that the UK will manage perfectly well outside the EU.
Personally I do not want laws forced on me by a cabal of corrupt countries who have produced such notable figures such as Christofias, Berlusconi, Peevski etc.
But, your vote is equal to mine.

[PapaBravo]

waz, you keep repeating the same stuff with nothing new or persuasive. I left the last topic because of your repetitive replies, and here you are on this one still going on in the same vein. If you read my post carefully you will see that I was quoting from the Sunday Telegraph editorial, not proclaiming my views. But I must respond to a couple of your less credible comments.

You may disagree with Merkel but at least we are in the same room and able to influence reform and progress.

We have been in this room for years and where is your evidence that we can influence events within the EU? It really is wishful thinking on your part.

The car industry is the classic with foreign owned UK car plants exporting vehicles daily into the EU FREE market economy. A BREXIT will effectively close this gateway and hinder the free trade enjoyed.

This is absolute nonsense if you consider the number of cars Germany exports (and will continue to export) to us.

[waz-24-7]

PapaBravo
You entirely miss the point.
The UK will not have any issues BUYING goods and services from Germany or indeed any other country. That is great for Germany. The vital point is that the UK must SELL its own goods and services such as UK made vehicles in order to secure desperately needed foreign currency. That is the critical point. Outside of the EU FREE Market access will be hindered, regulated, taxed and generally made much more difficult. Investor wanting to capitalise on access to the FREE Market will NOT come to UK shores but go to mainland Europe where FREE market access represents clear advantage .
I cannot make this any clearer.
Upon your comment about evidence for reform.
The evidence will only come in the future with hard negotiation . However, what is absolutely certain. If we leave the EU table and are resigned to looking through the window then the EU will plough on without the UK. Rest assured that if we want to sell our goods and services to the Union then we will need to conform regardless. A BREXIT is a most definite loose loose option.

[PapaBravo]

waz, you are absolutely correct, I miss the point; in fact I miss all your points. You have introduced nothing new since your earlier posts and you resolutely see no point of view other than your own. Congratulations on your doggedness and goodbye.

[waz-24-7]

"This video purports to make the case for Brexit, but I am happy to view any that support Remain, if there are any....."

Jofra,
have you not been following the campaigns for IN or OUT?
Should you want there are almost daily discussions, debates and interviews on UK catch up TV.

The campaigns are back in full swing after the sad loss of Jo Cox so there will be plenty of debate and discussion if you are interested and or undecided.

[terry2366]

Was, we are not in the same room as the rest, eu rules are made by 28 non elected people. The commissioners again non elected pass them . Merkel yesterday said she wants all the ex Russian states to have visa free travel all her neighbouring countries said no but it will happen she said. As with her invitation to all the migrants she would not listen . We want out you want in stop trying to bully every poster with your propaganda its rubbish try and get a life. You will not change one of our choices to vote and you are becoming bloody boring.,

[Groucho]

Upon your comment about evidence for reform.
The evidence will only come in the future with hard negotiation . However, what is absolutely certain. If we leave the EU table and are resigned to looking through the window then the EU will plough on without the UK. Rest assured that if we want to sell our goods and services to the Union then we will need to conform regardless. A BREXIT is a most definite loose loose option.

What evidence if any (there is none) is there that the EU will reform?

We've been there done that - no joy...

BTW way I think you mean 'lose lose'... 'loose loose' it most definitely is not...

[lee666]

I have read and followed Brexit and now following Lexit and Waz has hijacked this one now. We all must admire his doggedness but hand on heart I do not feel you will have converted ONE person to switch Waz.

I am 100% sure we can survive outside the EU, yes there will be a step backwards before we start to move forward but we WILL move forward with the great British Bulldog spirit this country used to be known for.

Waz, Cameron and all his cronies that he has trotted out over the campaign are worried. You could see that in the face of Osbourne today when he was interviewed and the way they have tried to frighten just about every single section of of the British community.

Thank the Lord there are only 4 days left then perhaps normality can be resumed although I see threads like this going on , and on, and on, and on.

Only a personal opinion of course.

[waz-24-7]

I have read and followed Brexit and now following Lexit and Waz has hijacked this one now. We all must admire his doggedness but hand on heart I do not feel you will have converted ONE person to switch Waz.

I am 100% sure we can survive outside the EU, yes there will be a step backwards before we start to move forward but we WILL move forward with the great British Bulldog spirit this country used to be known for.

Waz, Cameron and all his cronies that he has trotted out over the campaign are worried. You could see that in the face of Osbourne today when he was interviewed and the way they have tried to frighten just about every single section of of the British community.

Thank the Lord there are only 4 days left then perhaps normality can be resumed although I see threads like this going on , and on, and on, and on.

Only a personal opinion of course.

Lee,
I have hardly hijacked the debate and yes this is a debate. I will listen to people's views with respect and offer my own views so that a clear and balanced view is made available.
Certainly given the pole on this forum (only on this forum) BRREXIT is the preferred option. That clearly makes my view somewhat the underdog.
I have however seen no real convincing facts that indicate that the UK will be better off in the event of a BREXIT. There lies the doggedness and willingness to carry the clear loss that a BREXIT will deliver.

Cameron and indeed myself are worried. I worry for the people that will suffer the consequences of a BREXIT. People who will loose out on pensions, savings, jobs and prosperity. The facts are clear. Pension funds have been depleted by billions in just the last few trading days as investments have fallen due to migration of investors and their funds to other havens outside of the UK. This is because of the uncertainty that a BREXIT will create.
Sterling has hit a 5 year low in past trading days as traders and investors migrate from the clear uncertainty. How much convincing is needed to illustrate the clear and potential forthcoming loss. How much are you willing to forego and loose and for what?

Pleas do not expect normality upon a BREXIT. The lack of clear strategy and uncertainty will hit the markets within minutes of a BREXIT. Should we remain then I predict an influx to sterling and into the FTSE. The day could well become BLACK Thursday. This is what many market analysts are using as a descriptive term for a BREXIT.
It is most unfortunate that many are not willing or able to analyse the markets and register the importance of inward investment to the UK.

Isolationist regimes lack credibility and influence and are destined to ultimate failure in the modern world. The UK is currently a world power with influence, leading from the front. To sacrifice this position and become isolated by choice is surely a poor one.

[waz-24-7]

Upon your comment about evidence for reform.
The evidence will only come in the future with hard negotiation . However, what is absolutely certain. If we leave the EU table and are resigned to looking through the window then the EU will plough on without the UK. Rest assured that if we want to sell our goods and services to the Union then we will need to conform regardless. A BREXIT is a most definite loose loose option.

What evidence if any (there is none) is there that the EU will reform?

We've been there done that - no joy...

BTW way I think you mean 'lose lose'... 'loose loose' it most definitely is not...

Groucho,
The EU changes on almost a daily basis. UK representatives sit at the table and discuss and indeed negotiate upon Union matters every day. Just like our own sovereign parliament. Do you not agree that the political field changes continuously. This is the Evidence that reform is possible just as the Politics of the UK undergoes change and reform.

[waz-24-7]

Was we are not in the same room as the rest eu rules are made by 28 non elected people. The commissioners again non elected pass them . Merkel yesterday said she wants all the ex Russian states to have visa free travel all her neighbouring countries said no but it will happen she said. As with her invitation to all the migrants she would not listen . We want out you want in stop trying to bully every poster with your propaganda its rubbish try and get a life. You will not change one of our choices to vote and you are becoming bloody boring.

Terry,
The UK as a member of the EU and has a seat at the table. MEP's are elected and democracy is in place. The UK has influence and effect upon what happens at Brussels. Certainly if we are not at that table then expect to tow the Union line OR absolutely close the door on Europe, its markets and consumers. The UK cannot afford that in any way. Mrs Merkel is not the leader of the EU and cannot railroad her wishes without other union support.
I think you are mistaken upon that point.
I am dismayed that you feel bullied. Perhaps you could present your case for BREXIT. I have a life thank you. I do not think you are in a position to speak for others in the referendum.
You sir are quite rude and there is no need.

[Groucho]

Upon your comment about evidence for reform.
The evidence will only come in the future with hard negotiation . However, what is absolutely certain. If we leave the EU table and are resigned to looking through the window then the EU will plough on without the UK. Rest assured that if we want to sell our goods and services to the Union then we will need to conform regardless. A BREXIT is a most definite loose loose option.

What evidence if any (there is none) is there that the EU will reform?

We've been there done that - no joy...

BTW way I think you mean 'lose lose'... 'loose loose' it most definitely is not...

Groucho,
The EU changes on almost a daily basis. UK representatives sit at the table and discuss and indeed negotiate upon Union matters every day. Just like our own sovereign parliament. Do you not agree that the political field changes continuously. This is the Evidence that reform is possible just as the Politics of the UK undergoes change and reform.

We can just about negotiate who gets the salt next.... but anything that challenges the power the EU wields to control what course everyone must eat next is not on the table....

I simply can't imagine from where you have got your rosy-tinted view of the EU or our leaders ability to influence it but suggest a visit to Specsavers might resolve the issue...

Their are none so blind as those who will not see...

[Groucho]

Was we are not in the same room as the rest eu rules are made by 28 non elected people. The commissioners again non elected pass them . Merkel yesterday said she wants all the ex Russian states to have visa free travel all her neighbouring countries said no but it will happen she said. As with her invitation to all the migrants she would not listen . We want out you want in stop trying to bully every poster with your propaganda its rubbish try and get a life. You will not change one of our choices to vote and you are becoming bloody boring.

Terry,
The UK as a member of the EU and has a seat at the table. MEP's are elected and democracy is in place. The UK has influence and effect upon what happens at Brussels. Certainly if we are not at that table then expect to tow the Union line OR absolutely close the door on Europe, its markets and consumers. The UK cannot afford that in any way. Mrs Merkel is not the leader of the EU and cannot railroad her wishes without other union support.
I think you are mistaken upon that point.
I am dismayed that you feel bullied. Perhaps you could present your case for BREXIT. I have a life thank you. I do not think you are in a position to speak for others in the referendum.
You sir are quite rude and there is no need.

It was you who suggested we lacked education.... that was rude was it not?

What makes you think you are in a position to "speak for others in the referendum"?

[waz-24-7]

Groucho
Not sure of the content of your last post.
To be clear.
I speak for no other than myself. I offer my views and present a case to Remain.

I cannot comment upon the education of the "we", I can comment upon the points that individuals make within their submissions.
No rudeness or malice intended at any point.
W