Have you watched the Brexit Movie ?

[Groucho]

[

Thanks No Deeds

One is dead and the other is History.
No basis for an OUT vote.

Let reasoned and rational thinking prevail over slogans devoid of rational or reasoned content.

When what you really mean is let fear and the Devil you know lead you to vote for the status quo.... It's not reasoned argument it is total piffle designed to put doubts into the minds of those who would otherwise seek to change things up a bit and show that the UK can function very nicely thank you without being shackled to the sick cow standing on the edge of the precipice ...

Keep going Waz you are losing votes minute by minute... in a hole - stop digging mate!

Groucho,
To be clear. I am not personally standing for election.. I am disappointed that you think my point of view is "piffle". My posts are factual and based on real events and facts that are becoming more apparent by the day. Your own posts appear to lack the substance that would make any undecided voters choose your course.
I have asked previously that you might offer alternatives to current leaders, policies and strategy to facilitate the prosperity that we should look forward to post BREXIT.

I never said you were standing for election.... If you are disappointed it's may be because you misunderstand that I think your views are not yours - just borrowed ones from scaremongers...

You keep applying the epithet 'fact' to your views when they are not facts... the only facts you are repeating are the names of people saying things which are not known fact merely supposition based on the worst case scenario you would like to intimidate the voters with...

When will you learn that many people are not impressed with a list of the names of fat cats who would love us to keep their noses at the trough...

My posts don't lack substance - they only lack the substance you want to hear... well go figure!

You keep refusing to accept that many people feel that leaving the EU is in itself the solution to all the problems that the EU poses... problems which we, but not you, it seems are willing to acknowledge.

We are not saying that nothing will change or that there will not need to be adjustments made... but you only seem to keep repeating the same rhetoric - namely that it will all go horribly wrong...

The claim that things can only get better if we remain is a hollow claim that many UK voters feel is just not a realistic option giving the headlong rush into more and stronger federalism that degrades the ability of nations to be masters of their own fortunes.. We no longer believe in the jam tomorrow argument - it's taken far too long for the EU to wake up and smell the coffee.

[PapaBravo]

waz wrote:

The UK has border control and immigration is controlled by same. How will immigration bring our country to its knees? Please explain this comment.

Are you being serious, or have I misunderstood? The UK has Border Controls in order to control non-EU citizens from gaining entry. Even David Cameron concedes that all EU citizens have the right to enter the UK. Unless we can control this flow, all our public services countrywide will be overwhelmed; that is what will bring this country to its knees.

The UK secures massive benefits from the EU. Almost every town in the UK has benefited from EU funded improvement or incentive projects to create jobs and or to improve life standards in deprived regions.

Of course the UK gets money from the EU, but it is only a percentage of what we pay in, so they are giving us some of our own money back, and telling us how to spend it!

[elizabeth]

waz wrote:

The UK has border control and immigration is controlled by same. How will immigration bring our country to its knees? Please explain this comment.

Are you being serious, or have I misunderstood? The UK has Border Controls in order to control non-EU citizens from gaining entry. Even David Cameron concedes that all EU citizens have the right to enter the UK. Unless we can control this flow, all our public services countrywide will be overwhelmed; that is what will bring this country to its knees.

Thank you Papabravo, I would have answered this posting from Waz but I couldn't see for laughing, I don't know where he lives but it must be a very select area, maybe LaLa land

[waz-24-7]

waz wrote:

The UK has border control and immigration is controlled by same. How will immigration bring our country to its knees? Please explain this comment.

Are you being serious, or have I misunderstood? The UK has Border Controls in order to control non-EU citizens from gaining entry. Even David Cameron concedes that all EU citizens have the right to enter the UK. Unless we can control this flow, all our public services countrywide will be overwhelmed; that is what will bring this country to its knees.

Thank you Papabravo, I would have answered this posting from Waz but I couldn't see for laughing, I don't know where he lives but it must be a very select area, maybe LaLa land

Elizabeth.
To be clear you said Migration will bring the country to its knees. This is my contention. Public services are indeed staffed , in part by Migrants. Indeed as Many NHS seniors have illustrated. In most hospitals and doctors. You are more likely to be attended to by an immigrant than be in the Queue with one. Yet again, I can see an opinion that immigrants are a drain on resources rather than an asset to the UK economy. The vast majority of EU migrants come to the UK to work, They pay taxes and create wealth for the UK. How can this bring the country to its knees? Migration has allowed the UK economy to thrive and remain competitive in the world market place. What please do you see as a solution to this alleged problem.
I do think that the EU together with the UK will address the fears of people like yourself over total freedom of movement because the matter appears to touch a nerve with many Europeans. Certainly, to leave the Union will isolate the UK to deal with illegal immigration on itself. I see boats crossing the channel in the same way they have crossed the Mediterranean. To leave the Union is NOT a solution. To remain IN and address this global issue is the only way to secure a solution. The UK is a world power and is better placed than most to lead the Union into finding a solution.

[waz-24-7]

waz wrote:

The UK has border control and immigration is controlled by same. How will immigration bring our country to its knees? Please explain this comment.

Are you being serious, or have I misunderstood? The UK has Border Controls in order to control non-EU citizens from gaining entry. Even David Cameron concedes that all EU citizens have the right to enter the UK. Unless we can control this flow, all our public services countrywide will be overwhelmed; that is what will bring this country to its knees.

The UK secures massive benefits from the EU. Almost every town in the UK has benefited from EU funded improvement or incentive projects to create jobs and or to improve life standards in deprived regions.

Of course the UK gets money from the EU, but it is only a percentage of what we pay in, so they are giving us some of our own money back, and telling us how to spend it!

Papa Bravo
Please see my post to Elizabeth.
You take a mistaken view that migrants simply come to the UK to benefit from welfare, services and health care. The majority of migrants actively work in the UK economy, contributing massively to the government revenues that indeed pay for the services that you predict will be on their knees. Your economic case is severely flawed.
It is primarily poor management and waste that is crucifying our public sector services. I fear that BREXIT will not change that position.

[PapaBravo]

waz, we will never agree on this issue! You see the world through a different lens. You have strong views, to which you are entitled, but have offered nothing convincing to back up your recommendation that we stay in.

Lets just see what happens on thursday.

[waz-24-7]

Groucho.
I have stated and continue to state that the EU is in need of reform. The EU can be reformed. Why should it not? Certainly the free movement of people across the EU is producing a lot of discomfort for many Europeans. Reform can address this issue. A rational limit to movement is very plausible and possible as a reform agenda. The EU cannot disregard its citizens in this matter. A BREXIT is not a solution. The UK must remain IN and lead this type of reform from within.
You are correct that I have cited many influential leaders, industrialists, and personalities. This is fact and their support is likewise.. The Market and sterling declines of last 6 days is something I predicted 6 weeks ago. This too is fact.
It is fact that the UK economy is already suffering as investors migrate from our currency and our industrial base.
You should , by this late stage, be clear that the UK economy is at grave risk of decline and recession. This too is a fact given market behaviour.

I ask you. What do you feel is to be gained from this sacrifice of the UK economy? Some prudent analysis would be advised to determine the cost to yourself and those important to you of a BREXIT and is it worth it?

[waz-24-7]

waz, we will never agree on this issue! You see the world through a different lens. You have strong views, to which you are entitled, but have offered nothing convincing to back up your recommendation that we stay in.

Lets just see what happens on thursday.

Papa Bravo.
Yes, I probably do see things differently to OUT voters. My experience within the UK economy working in a multi billion pound industry that relies on EU and global trade gives me a different viewpoint.. I have seen and heard first hand how an Exit from the FREE market economy of Europe will severely damage the UK economy. The writing is clearly on the wall for me.
I can also relay to you how Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are lining up to entice multinational global business from their UK bases ( in event of a BREXIT) to their own shores in order to re instate them into the FREE Market economy and its 500 million consumers.
These matters are not openly transmitted in the media but talks behind closed doors have been very much the agenda since a referendum was announced. Global trade and commerce is brutal. There are no prisoners. The UK will be put to the sword by business and competition in a blink.
I fear for the UK Economy and the risk of recession is very serious. I cannot even say with any confidence that the UK has a strategy to recover. Out voters relay the opportunity to do trade with other countries. The UK already is a global player. To divorce ourselves from the Free Markey economy can ONLY result in decline and loss. There is no other course.
What indeed can be gained by this sacrifice of the UK economy and is it a price worth paying?

[kerry 6138]

Was 24 7[/quote]A rational limit to movement is very plausible and possible as a reform agenda. The EU cannot disregard its citizens in this matter. A BREXIT is not a solution. The UK must remain IN and lead this type of reform from within. [/quote]
Free movement seems to me to be a corner stone of EU, where have you seen evidence this may be reformed ?
If the EU cannot disregard its citizens it must then also listen to its citizens who benefit from free movement Eastern Europeans ,former Soviet states for example.
Germany the dominant economy in the EU is under threat because it has the lowest birth rate in the world and needs migrants to maintain its economy.

[turtle]

What other reason do you need !

[PapaBravo]

waz, you are simply repeating the same argument over and over again - that 'influential figures' say that the UK economy will suffer if Brexit occurs.

You talk about trade being global, well that is a positive for the UK post Brexit as we will be free to trade with the whole world including the EU. I can't believe that even you seriously think that the Germans will stop selling their Mercedes, BMW, VWs, etc to the UK after Brexit.

You also talk about reforming the EU from within! Well what evidence is there that they wish to be reformed? Seems to me that the elite who rule are very happy within the unaccountable power they wield and the massive remuneration they receive. They certainly gave Cameron short shrift when he asked them for some special treatment for the UK to enhance the case for Remain.

You never responded to my post about all the 'influential figures' who, wrongly, forecast doom for the British economy if we left the ERM and then later in the political cycle, said that Britain could not compete unless we accepted the Euro; thank goodness Gordon Brown prevailed over Tony Bliar (sic). None of the doom mongering was accurate then, and I have no reason to believe things will be any different this time around.

My own position is that I want to put my country before my own needs (sounds like a cliche, but true in my case) and I am prepared to accept some temporary financial loss in my investments because I believe in the ability of the British people to master the challenges that will face them, certainly in the short term.

Did you read the articles by Colonel Hughes and Tom Roach in Cyprus Today? Definitely food for thought don't you think?

Just in case you are interested, here is another view, 'Lexit The Movie': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4

Can you suggest any Remain videos that I can watch?

[waz-24-7]

[quote="PapaBravo"]waz, you are simply repeating the same argument over and over again - that 'influential figures' say that the UK economy will suffer if Brexit occurs.

You talk about trade being global, well that is a positive for the UK post Brexit as we will be free to trade with the whole world including the EU. I can't believe that even you seriously think that the Germans will stop selling their Mercedes, BMW, VWs, etc to the UK after Brexit.

You also talk about reforming the EU from within! Well what evidence is there that they wish to be reformed? Seems to me that the elite who rule are very happy within the unaccountable power they wield and the massive remuneration they receive. They certainly gave Cameron short shrift when he asked them for some special treatment for the UK to enhance the case for Remain.

My own position is that I want to put my country before my own needs (sounds like a cliche, but true in my case) and I am prepared to accept some temporary financial loss in my investments because I believe in the ability of the British people to master the challenges that will face them, certainly in the short term.

Did you read the articles by Colonel Hughes and Tom Roach in Cyprus Today? Definitely food for thought don't you think?

PapaBravo
Thank you for your comments.
Global trade in indeed a Positive for the UK. No issue there. What is an issue is to exit the FREE market economy of the EU is NOT a positive move. Certainly the Germans will not stop selling INTO the UK. That is god for UK consumers. What is critical is that the UK MUST EXPORT and SELL its own goods and services to drive our own economy and earn foreign currency. It is this that drives and our economy and country to prosperity.

Your stance upon your country is noble but please also consider the financial and prospects cost to other people who will most certainly be at a loss upon a BREXIT. Short term loss. I cannot see any legitimate reason to support the notion that a BREXIT decline will only be short term. The loss of investment and migration from UK shores of currency and business is a one way trip without clear strategy to recover these losses.

I have not read those articles as I am not currently in TRNC. Perhaps you could link them.

[kibsolar1999]

turtle, it is funny to see how you change governments in the UK... most other countries do it with simple elections and not with referendums

again, i can understand some of the argments of the brexit supporters.. but somehow: there is no vision..
if they would at least fight for a change of the election system.. ok.. that would be something.. but, no, nothing.
instead propaganda and useless promises. i wonder: who will take advanage from a Brexit. must be somebody rich. or Boris.

come to the most important part, ...
(never mind that after a brexit you can not do anything with your own waters (exept looking to them, something you do today as well) , that you will create a desaster when you send your agriculture to the world market (reason is very easy: products will be too expensive ) and that your EU membership fee will change to a EU-access fee (see norway and others) and you have to follow EU regulations anyway.... and also never mind that overweight of the population (adiposity) does cost the UK something between 35 and 100 billion...

.... the immigration.
not only germany is an overaged society, the UK will be soon as well or they are already. a "net" 250-350k immigration is need, and this is known for years.
citizens from other EU countries come to work to the UK, because the UK economy is simply better as at home.
now, many brexit supporters complaint that "they are everywhere" and put pressure to the rental market (nice if you are a landlord) , and that you have to wait for weeks to see a doctor at the NHS... and? this was all unknown by your government? why no new hospitals have been build, not more doctors employed, no more social homes build, not more invested into education and instead put the tuition fees that high that a normal brit can not affort them any more?

the answer is very easy: your government can not govern any more and thats not because of the EU, its because your contry is in the hands of the landlords. statistically the UK does well, practically the UK is bancrupt, because they are unable to generate more income (eg, tax the rich).

so, if you do not want more immigration, you have two possibilities:
1. you strenghten the economy in these countries, which will cost you money. direct or indirectly. thats what the EU does "half way" (eg, with subsidies for infrastructure to poland, hungary and so on) , because they know that some countries NEED immigration. meaning, some poorer countries (in the EU, in the world) are NEEDED to feed the richer countries. and you want to explain me that your government does not know this?
.
2. you control your borders! yes. and stop access or working permissions for EU citizens even before you sit at the negotiation table for the brexit in brussels? or wait 7 years?
ok, whatever you do... immigration goes down, to say 100k a year. this goes on for 3,4,5 years... you are short a million of workforce.
and then?
then you can contact your local farmer whether it is possible to work on his fields to get some potatoes- tomatoes-peas, whatever, in return.
if you back aches, you can go to a doctor slightly quicker. btw, your idea to export agriculture products is history anyway, you pay your a*** off for subsidies or 5 GBP for a kilo potatoes (sorry, 2,2 lb, i have a suggestion.. maybe this makes the difference: "get our weight and measures back, freedom from Europe" )

not the EU is a problem and the brexit is not a solution. the prolems are deeper, not only in the UK or germany or the EU.
we face a new situation, the "late capitalism" as it is called from experts.
i have been adviced to (have a beer and ) read Robin Hood. thats nonsense. iam not an economic expert, but many experts say that something is going very wrong and the "unability to change" worries them.
especially that we have too many too rich people who ( or also: too many rich countries) control and basically choke off the economy (country, EU, world, whatever)

btw, your government, which can not govern, will introduce in 2017 a "sugar tax" on soft drinks. somehow they realised that this might saves more money as a EU membership fee. and on top it is completely within EU regulations.
(france and belgium did so some years ago.. but the tax is still too low)

funny. everything so funny.

[waz-24-7]

Was 24 7

A rational limit to movement is very plausible and possible as a reform agenda. The EU cannot disregard its citizens in this matter. A BREXIT is not a solution. The UK must remain IN and lead this type of reform from within. [/quote]
Free movement seems to me to be a corner stone of EU, where have you seen evidence this may be reformed ?
If the EU cannot disregard its citizens it must then also listen to its citizens who benefit from free movement Eastern Europeans ,former Soviet states for example.
Germany the dominant economy in the EU is under threat because it has the lowest birth rate in the world and needs migrants to maintain its economy.[/quote]



Kerry,
The issue of immigration and the general migration of people is a Global issue. For the USA, Australia, Europe and indeed every G7 nation.
Certainly the issue must be addressed. The UK as a respected world power must take some responsibility and leadership in attaining a solution to this very important and critical issue. The task is extremely difficult and complex. A BREXIT based on fear of addressing this issue is cowardice, fear and not good for the UK and its people.
The EU is fully aware of the migration issue and the distress being caused to migrants and recipient states alike. The matter must be addressed and dealt with. There is a solution and it will be secured by concerted efforts from ALL member states to reform current policies. It is important that the UK is at that table and leading the debate. Outside of the settlement and alone; I envisage the English channel becoming the new Mediterranean sea with inflatable boats and cross channel people smuggling becoming rampant. In fact, I would expect the French to supply free boats and welfare support to the departing migrants.

Germany is the strongest economy in the Union even with the issue you describe. The UK is the second strongest. Sacrifice our economy and the migration issue will disappear without doubt. Please consider the choices that are on the table. There are solutions to the fears and concerns you have.
A BREXIT is not a solution without cost. Remain IN, reform and progress is a solution with short term pain but with credibility, respect and importantly prosperity for the UK.

[PapaBravo]

waz, please view the link at Msg 411 and advise what you agree/disagree with.

[waz-24-7]

waz, please view the link at Msg 411 and advise what you agree/disagree with.

PapaBravo

Thank you for the Link.
The video is very much political in content with clear left wing against right wing overtones as well as being anti capitalism.
Clearly a Left of Left presentation.
This is NOT reasoned debate for a BREXIT. We are not voting upon a new government of the UK.

My view is that BREXIT is rather more than simply left/right wing or anti capitalism politics.
Immigration is not a political issue. The UK economy is not a political issue. It is these two NON political issues that are driving the vote.

It is the case that all major political parties bar UKIP are firmly behind REMAIN. This surely indicates the political unilateral support for REMAIN.

This ultra left wing presentation relays doom and gloom on just about everything without offering solutions or alternatives. It is more akin to a general election broadcast. On Thursday the vote is a referendum IN or OUT of the EU not a party political vote for the election of a government.

I therefore offer little credence to this presentation in relation to the BREXIT referendum

[waz-24-7]

BREXIT and fishing,
The fishing industry has certainly seen decline over past two decades. To blame this decline on the EU has no substance. Overfishing and poor management of resources in past 100 yrs has decimated stocks. Not just in UK but worldwide.
Regulation and quotas are essential in all the worlds fishing grounds in order to maintain at least some stock and to promote regeneration.
A BRXIT will not bring fish back to UK waters. What policies are being put forward by the UK industry to facilitate a regeneration? A global policy is required. Stand alone strategies will not work as was seen in the cod wars of the 1970,s. Fish have no territorial preferences. Yet again the EU is the scape goat for poor performance. A BREXIT is NOT a solution. A unilateral structured policy will facilitate better management and recovery

[waz-24-7]

FB_IMG_1466312386214.jpg

What other reason do you need !

And that leaves Mr Farage and perhaps Mr Johnson to fight it out on the top job.
I cannot Imagine who will be in the cabinet. Perhaps Donald Trump may assist part time as construction of walls minister.

I fear the political landscape will also be significantly weaker and starved of resource upon a BREXIT.

[PapaBravo]

waz wrote:

The fishing industry has certainly seen decline over past two decades. To blame this decline on the EU has no substance.

How you can say that after hearing the testimony of those in the video, who were intimately involved in the fishing industry for many years is beyond belief.

It tells me that there is NO argument or fact that you are prepared to accept if it differs from your own ideas of the UK in Europe.

[waz-24-7]

The testimony within the video is not contended though elements are absent. ie recovery.
The video offers no solution to the depleted fish stocks. It is this that has led to the decline of that industry.
The EU is the scape goat for the failure of a poorly managed resource.
No mention of the chaotic situation before the EU when trawlers were like war ships and violence, piracy and strife at sea prevailed.
Look at the cod wars or early 70.s


Are you suggesting that a BREXIT will return the industry to prosperity and massive fishing fleets.
We are where we are and reform is the way forward for the fishing industry.

[kerry 6138]

My old work place producing since 1946 .

images.jpeg (8.85 KiB) Viewed 1804 times

EU Commission says US company shouldn't have 2 factory's in UK company needs to divest result factory sold to Italian manufacturer who with EU funding transfers production to Italy.

images-1.jpeg (10.51 KiB) Viewed 1804 times

[turtle]

The testimony within the video is not contended though elements are absent. ie recovery.
The video offers no solution to the depleted fish stocks. It is this that has led to the decline of that industry.
The EU is the scape goat for the failure of a poorly managed resource.
No mention of the chaotic situation before the EU when trawlers were like war ships and violence, piracy and strife at sea prevailed.
Look at the cod wars or early 70.s


Are you suggesting that a BREXIT will return the industry to prosperity and massive fishing fleets.
We are where we are and reform is the way forward for the fishing industry.

Waz
Do you think it fair that the Dutch super trawler should operate in British waters at the expense of UK fishermen ?

[turtle]

FB_IMG_1466312386214.jpg

What other reason do you need !

And that leaves Mr Farage and perhaps Mr Johnson to fight it out on the top job.
I cannot Imagine who will be in the cabinet. Perhaps Donald Trump may assist part time as construction of walls minister.

I fear the political landscape will also be significantly weaker and starved of resource upon a BREXIT.

Waz
You are being silly now... Farage is not a Tory and yes maybe Boris will be a candidate and your flippant comment on Trump I will just ignore.
I vote Tory as a rule but I didn't vote Tory at the last election because of the chuckle bros Cameron and Osbourn as they are now the most hated pair in British politics

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
Whilst, I am fully sympathetic to the woes of our hard working fishermen. The issue within that industry is poor resource management for the past 100yrs, The EU regulation is simply a last ditched attempt to make up for lost time.

I cannot agree with any super trawler activity working in an industry that cannot sustain such vehicles of resource destruction.
UK trawlers out of Peterhead now regularly cross the Irish sea to fish in Scandinavian waters. I believe that any return to clear defined territorial waters, will increase costs ( policing , trespass, quotas) to the UK industry that is already struggling. As I have said the issue is depleted stocks and overfishing. I am afraid the industry must harden up again and accept that to replenish the sea will take some very hard decisions and actions.
Certainly a BREXIT will not make things change anytime soon and would drive up the costs of fish in our shops.

[waz-24-7]

FB_IMG_1466312386214.jpg

What other reason do you need !

And that leaves Mr Farage and perhaps Mr Johnson to fight it out on the top job.
I cannot Imagine who will be in the cabinet. Perhaps Donald Trump may assist part time as construction of walls minister.

I fear the political landscape will also be significantly weaker and starved of resource upon a BREXIT.

Waz
You are being silly now... Farage is not a Tory and yes maybe Boris will be a candidate and your flippant comment on Trump I will just ignore.
I vote Tory as a rule but I didn't vote Tory at the last election because of the chuckle bros Cameron and Osbourn as they are now the most hated pair in British politics

Turtle,
Politicians are hardly ever popular. Cameron and Osbourne are what we currently have and are in position by democratic election. I do not believe at all that they are the most hated pair in British politics. Mr Cameron has faired reasonably well in opinion poles since his re election.
You will have noted the barrage of attacks on politicians period since their support for the remain campaign has been published.
Do you not agree that the barrel is rather empty when it comes to potential and plausible leaders that could take the country to prosperity after a BREXIT. UKIP seems the main contender and I cannot think how the cabinet will look given the lack lustre people behind Mr Farage. I believe Mr Trump shares some ideologies that Mr Farage preaches. Who knows what could transpire should Mr Trump be available.

[turtle]

Waz
I would think we would all agree that fish stocks need to be protected but my point is a super trawler operates in British waters WITH the permission of the EU,... who will stop this? Oh yes when we sit again at the big table we will be able to "influence" this issue.

What a load of balony.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
I understand your point. We must also agree that if the UK had the same Super trawler it too could enter other European grounds and like wise fish.
Certainly many UK trawlers already go into Spanish and French water in search of prey.
Fisheries policy is far from acceptable to the UK, Spanish, Dutch et al. The fact remains there is not enough sustainability. The EU has a difficult task ahead.
Yes. the UK must endeavour to be at that fishy table to secure sustainability, responsibility and to lead the members into a fishing policy that works.
Again to walk away is not a solution. The UK must show good and strong leadership.

[Groucho]

Why is walking away not a solution to an abusive relationship... Oh I know, because the abuser is now threatening to stalk us and take revenge on us - there is no other way to interpret the threats from the EU....

[waz-24-7]

Why is walking away not a solution to an abusive relationship... Oh I know, because the abuser is now threatening to stalk us and take revenge on us - there is not other way to interpret the threats from the EU....

Groucho
I hardly think the EU is an abusive organisation. The UK is absolutely able to hold its head high in the Union. Each and every member state vies to secure the best deal for itself and its people. The UK does this well and has become the 2nd largest power within the Union. You could just as easily describe our own sovereign government as abusive given the banter and legislation we get in the house of commons and during PM question time.
The EU , regardless of what you may think is our nearest neighbour. It is folly for either side to build a wall and become isolationist from the problems, issues, benefits and economics that such a proximity presents.

I find it quite extraordinary that you feel the EU presents a threat to the UK and even if it was your stance to walk away is hardly a winning strategy. I think it is your possible fear of change, the changing face of our planet, its politics, its cosmopolitan structure, its problems and issues, the distribution of power and wealth, freedom of travel, The world will continue to change rapidly presenting issues that need to be addressed by multi lateral co operation. The UK cannot isolate itself and cling to historical greatness in a hope that historical prosperity will come to our shores. The UK must take a lead in Europe and in the World and earn to maintain respect and prosperity. It does this well right now. The referendum on Thursday is a decision to lead OR to cower and hide within our own borders.

[Geoff1131]

waz, Thursday is a decision to lead or to cower and hide within our own borders.

OR Thursday is the day that the people of the UK decide to take the lead and show other members of the crumbling eu set up that there is indeed life OUTSIDE the eu club.

One is your desperate claim to leave things as they are because you are afraid of the challenge that a UK exit will bring.

Mine is an optimistic view on how things will change once the UK is free from the shackles of an undemocratic and increasingly interfering organisation.

A couple of points have occurred too me during this whole debate. The remain camp keep going on about losing access to a 500 million market. But have they realised that trading with the whole world will be considerably more than this?

The other thing that comes to mind is that the PM and his sidekick probably would want the UK to stay in the eu as they can then have an easy ride until they decide to retire from politics. If there is an out vote on Thursday then they are going to have to get off their backsides and along with all the other parliamentarians will have to start to do what the UK electorate voted them into power to do ie govern the country.

[WotNoDeeds]

GET THE U.K. OUT OF THE E.U.

"David Cameron is misusing the sacrifice of Britain's war dead to advance his pro-EU agenda"

"Young men did not die in battle so the EU elite could misuse their sacrifice for their own tawdry and dishonest political purposes"

These soldiers would be turning in their graves at Camerons campaign to destroy the U.K.



"I thought I'd seen it all but the Remain camp's campaign to make Jo Cox their own private martyr is beneath contempt"


This is how our E.U. money is spent and it sickens me to the bone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ecret.html

[waz-24-7]

I am Very pleased to report that sterling and markets have acted on the potential Remain IN exit polls.

Sterling has risen 2% and FTSE is UP. This is the hedge fund traders placing their bets.
The results will be close but the economic case seems to be ringing in the right ears.

Voters yet undecided.
Consider the cost of BREXIT. Consider the cost of REMAIN. The sums stack up for REMAIN. The BREXIT case is too risky to our economy and prosperity. There is a price to pay whichever way the Uk goes. REMAIN shows determination and forward thinking on the World stage.
BREXIT is a cut and run case that is backward and without strategy.

This is my own view and supported by leaders, economists, industrialists and personalities.

[Geoff1131]

I am also very pleased to see the money markets and the stock exchange realise that the exit camp is now the frontrunner in the referendum and are now adjusting their levels accordingly.

It seems that more and more people and organisations are now accepting the inevitable and getting ready for the UK to be an independent country once again.

[waz-24-7]

waz, Thursday is a decision to lead or to cower and hide within our own borders.

OR Thursday is the day that the people of the UK decide to take the lead and show other members of the crumbling eu set up that there is indeed life OUTSIDE the eu club.

One is your desperate claim to leave things as they are because you are afraid of the challenge that a UK exit will bring.

Mine is an optimistic view on how things will change once the UK is free from the shackles of an undemocratic and increasingly interfering organisation.

A couple of points have occurred too me during this whole debate. The remain camp keep going on about losing access to a 500 million market. But have they realised that trading with the whole world will be considerably more than this?

The other thing that comes to mind is that the PM and his sidekick probably would want the UK to stay in the eu as they can then have an easy ride until they decide to retire from politics. If there is an out vote on Thursday then they are going to have to get off their backsides and along with all the other parliamentarians will have to start to do what the UK electorate voted them into power to do ie govern the country.

Geoff,
If you can sell this to British industry, investors and the world wide markets. Then you have a sure fire winner.
BREXIT has spent months trying the hard sell. The markets have responded.
Fact is.. these institutions have spoken. In particular the markets. The witting on the wall is clear and to ignore this is folly or doggedness to carry the burden.
I am sorry that your statements and honourable gestures are not carrying the case for a BREXIT.

[waz-24-7]

I am also very pleased to see the money markets and the stock exchange realise that the exit camp is now the frontrunner in the referendum and are now adjusting their levels accordingly.

It seems that more and more people and organisations are now accepting the inevitable and getting ready for the UK to be an independent country once again.

Sorry Geoff,
I disagree.
Markets and currencies are today driven by predominantly hedge funds that are reading the exit polls that are showing REMAIN as potential victors.

If the case was as you report then the Markets would not move in the same manner. The Markets are rather predictable in this instance because of the clear risk upon a BREXIT. It is simply not the case that a BREXIT will win investment. In the event of BREXIT it will almost guarantee a fall of sterling to sub $1.40 and Market drops of at lest 5% with little scope of recovery. There..... is the opportunity for anyone to hedge some investment and return a profit.

[kibsolar1999]

geoff wrote
A couple of points have occurred too me during this whole debate. The remain camp keep going on about losing access to a 500 million market. But have they realised that trading with the whole world will be considerably more than this?

1. you are free to do today. 2. what the hell you want to trade with? can it be that you do not have much to offer, or at least not for a compatible price? 3. and who produces, as you do not want immigrants? you are not even able to collect your potatoes on your own.

please explain how you want to run the country without a free EU market (and do not believe that you will get access as today... see here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32437&p=156404#p156404 ) ,
its only 2 days to go.

[waz-24-7]

geoff wrote
A couple of points have occurred too me during this whole debate. The remain camp keep going on about losing access to a 500 million market. But have they realised that trading with the whole world will be considerably more than this?

1. you are free to do today. 2. what the hell you want to trade with? can it be that you do not have much to offer, or at least not for a compatible price? 3. and who produces, as you do not want immigrants? you are not even able to collect your potatoes on your own.

please explain how you want to run the country without a free EU market (and do not believe that you will get access as today... see here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32437&p=156404#p156404 ) ,
its only 2 days to go.

Kibsolar,
Absolutely on the button.
International trade including that with the EU is what drives the UK economy. The notion that if we leave the FREE market economy is anything but a loss is ridiculous. Of course the Uk trades with the World but we cannot afford to lose the FREE market access. Its like saying I earn £100 but £50 will be OK too. Perhaps some do not need to earn and therefore the economy is of little interest or matter.
Immigrants certainly create wealth for the UK. The input into agriculture, manufacturing, healthcare, is abundantly clear. The UK economy benefits and is consequently strong. Unfortunately many people focus on the very small minority that appear on the tabloid pages and posters to create a clear Xenophobic picture.

[WotNoDeeds]

[kibsolar1999]

wotnodeedsforever,

1st pic, agreed,
2nd, sorry a lie. it must say if we leave the EU, the green party will take over
3rd, also a lie, true is: if we leave the EU, the north sea will be fished out
4th, cameron will go.

[kerry 6138]

Was 24 7 saying FREE in caps doesn't make it so, free of tariff's doesnt make it FREE of conditions.
would you accept a FREE crate of efes from your local shop on condition he could use your spare bedroom has a store room?
Kibsolar , I used to pick potatoes and peas has a teenager along with many housewife's to earn extra money for holidays and when I lived in Scotland the same happened in Fish factory's, this of course changed when the Eastern Europeans came in large numbers
Post Brexit it wouldn't beyond reason to reissue agricultural permits and no one has said every European must leave on Friday, most of the Eastern Europeans who now out number local British in Boston Lincs would be entitled to UK nationality

[kibsolar1999]

kerry wrote
... most of the Eastern Europeans who now out number local British in Boston Lincs would be entitled to UK nationality....

but surely this you can change on the 24th, or?

kerry wrote
I used to pick potatoes and peas has a teenager along with many housewife's to earn extra money for holidays and when I lived in Scotland the same happened in Fish factory's, this of course changed when the Eastern Europeans came in large numbers

when was that, please? in the 70ties? but i believe you still can do, if you like and if you are able to do so... (many british are simply to old.. and it is not getting better, demographically) .
do i get it right?... brexit supporters want to strenghten the traditional role of a women = housewife again and send them, for a fiver an hour or less, for a couple of month every year, together with their children (teens = 13-19) to (hard) work) instead to school or into deserved school holidays??
for many this statement makes more sense: you did earn some extra money DURING your holidays (incl saturday and sunday), not FOR your holidays.

well.. the good old times... and pls do not tell me now that "these couple of slaps" from your father did not do any harm to you...

[kerry 6138]

Kibsolar - was going to reply but really cant be bothered to respond to your anti British sentiments (does that make all IN anti British? )

[kibsolar1999]

kerry,
anti british sentiments?
you are joking. iam the one who tries to convince you to change things.. but not by leaving the EU and go back to the 70ties.
i want you to stay! thats not anti british.
anti british would be when i say : go. we dont need you, we dont want you. go out of my view.
some people here misunderstood some germans when they say "we support a brexit", they did not say that because they like the idea of leaving the EU as well, they said this because they want to get rid of the british asap, maybe later some want to leave the EU as well.. like marie le pen and other nationalists.. here you will your conflicts this "traitor Cameron" is takling about....

you will see what happens when after a brexit it will come to new elections and all the racists will take over, caused by your fantastic election system.

just because of this danger i would vote remain.

[kerry 6138]

Why do you think everybody wants to go back to the 70's ?

I'm not a spokesperson for the Brexit campaign, these are my own opinions based on my experiences .
Do I think the referendum was a mistake, yes aready said so.
Do I think free market is a good thing , yes when it was called a common market.
Do I like the expansionists model the EU appears to follow , no
Are there other models we could follow there must be beyond my pay grade,
Eg. Why not support acession countries to bring up there economies relative to the rest of the Union.

you dont seem to like our Parlimentary system it may not be perfect but its seved us well for a long time
in previous post you commented on how Britain became wealthy on slavery, in the 70's slavery was the remit of the Education Department now its also included in the Police budget for the Home Office.

[WotNoDeeds]

"Those who back Remain in the Britain's EU referendum can no longer pretend that they don't know what we're getting into"

"The EU has revealed its true nature: a federalist monster that will not stop until nations are abolished"


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04 ... r-that-wi/


GET THE U.K. OUT OF THE E.U

Do you really want this ! -

[turtle]

Lively debate on BBC tonight I make it 50-50 on that performance.

[kerry 6138]

Two Ladies on leave side out shone Boris again and on the remain camp Scottish Tory leader was good didn't think much of the Union leader.

[Groucho]

To be honest I don't think these staged debates should be taken with anything other than a pinch of salt - the very idea that such a momentous decision should be held in the balance by the perceived 'winner's and 'losers' in a TV debate is counter to the idea of reasoned argument.

If the leave group trounced the stay campaign in the debate it would only prove one thing that the stay campaign did not perform well... is that really anyway to make what is a very important decision? No - we should all have made up our minds without this popularity bun fight...

I don't think the main antagonists in this debate should have much influence at all... better that people think about what the EU has meant, does mean and will mean in the future when deciding - as I think they should, that really we don't want it don't need and should not afford it...

[turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8kpgGIDa6c

[mickhm]

Wooo Hooo only a few hours to go now and the polls open so I won't have to read all this diatribe on the forum but I will expect new posts full of all the recriminations of whatever side lost. Pehaps I can get my life back then