Cyprus talks negotiations. Out come. effects to non tcs

[jamboree]

All these talks of peace and love at the moment and past 41 or more years or so. I was wondering how will this effect non tc who have property's here in north Cyprus. I am not trying to stir things up I just would like to know what will happen to non tcs Ie Brits, Russians, Germans, Israelis etc. I think leaders like to talks but that's all that ever happens here in Cyprus , cup of coffee and chat 41 years later and we are at the same position as we were at the beginning. I am not a very good chess player but it looks like a stalemate to me where no positive outcome can be achieved for either side. What are other people's thoughts on this or am I only one that thinks this way?? I think there are many who have thoughts but tend to opt for the ostrich syndrome keep head in the sand and it will go away. It will never go away in my understanding and in what I have seen over the past 41years. God help us all.

[waddo]

Head above the parapet! I think that they will never be a solution achieved between the North and the South - mainly due to the position that the South always takes over everything North of the Green Line. I do not believe that anything the North or Turkey could do - apart from disappearing from the face of the planet - will ever appease the South. I do have a feeling that some sort of solution will be forced upon the South when the talks finally fail again this time. I think that the World has had enough and will simply admit that the North exists as a separate country and leave it at that.

The housing issue will always be sticky but will take many long years to sort out - never forget that there are more TC in the same position as "Aliens" regarding property ownership and many of them have had their builders run away with the funds, many have no Kocan either, its anybody's guess but you can guarantee that no matter where your house is situated, there will be a GC who has proof that he was born in it in 1847!!!

The US will be looking for a new air base once Turkey throws them out of Incirlik or Trump gets into power and leaves NATO thereby withdrawing all USA assets abroad - interesting times - and will probably "Pal Up" with the UK again so it can make use of the base at Akrotiri.

[DenizIsmail]

I am a TC living in UK however I have just bought a villa in Alagadi 2 years ago which I intend to retire to within a few years. We currently use the villa as a holiday home. Our villa is built on GC land however it is exchange land. I also have concerns and I am TC. With all the negotiations going on what is going to happen to our villa which I have spent £140000 on? I have been watching what is going on with the negotiations and getting more frustrated as the talks just seem to go on and on with no positive outcomes.
The leaders first said that an outcome to the solution would be made by June 2016 now its moved to the end of the year. My hope is that everything stays the same TC and GC live apart however for TRNC to be recognized by other countries and for TRNC to be able to trade

[niceone]

An article in this weeks Cyprus today warns people not to buy pre 1974 Greek Cypriot houses, this is because of a clause currently being discussed that would allow them to return to those homes.
It states that homes built on GC land the original owners would be compensated, it does not however state who pays the compensation, the worry is it may be the current owner

[JBA]

A lot depends on what is decided on certain key issues.

I hope and pray my home is not on land returned to GC control - I cannot foresee any fair treatment for people owning property in such areas.

If The TCs accept the removal of the Turkish guarantees and troops then I fear that after a few years we will be witnesses to a repeat of 1963/4. Although I don't think they would dare to deliberately endanger British or other EU citizens, some will get caught up in it and I don't want to be around to see their treatment of my TC friends. After that, any terms agreed on property settlement would be overturned fairly quickly - just like they overturned the 1960 constitution.

The other potential major issue is that the South are insisting on the freedom of movement and place of abode that is part of European law. This would enable them to target areas within the new TC boundaries and encourage GCs to buy property there until they can achieve a majority and take control. A slower process but still effective and it will be kick-started by the possible return of properties previously Greek owned. Remember, we have left the EU so we will no longer get a vote if the sides re-unite, and the TC vote is fractured into many parties so the GCs wouldn't need that many people to gain control of a belediye.

[waz-24-7]

Cyprus is far too a valuable asset to be ignored by World powers.
The UK has sovereign military bases.
Turkey has major military presence.
The UN have interests.
USA are happy to have the UK as ally so indirectly present.
The strategic position of Cyprus within the Eastern Mediterranean has for centuries been the desirable prize. That remains so.
Current settlement issues are not top priority as peace prevails and all is calm.
The island is a member of the European Union and the advantages to its citizens is capitalised well. Even the majority of TC pop across to the ROC to secure the valuable EU passport and its status and advantages.
It is highly unlikely that Turkey will forfeit its military position in the TRNC. Pressure from the EU, UN and others is half hearted and is mostly ignored.
ROC attempts to undermine and ostracize the TRNC have been more successful but Turkish money carries the ship.
Certainly UK EXPATS will become more vulnerable and exposed as we depart the EU fold.
This weakness will most certainly be capitalised upon by the GC and I would expect new lines of attack on particularly UK Kocan holders in next few years.

[waddo]

"Certainly UK EXPATS will become more vulnerable and exposed as we depart the EU fold.
This weakness will most certainly be capitalised upon by the GC and I would expect new lines of attack on particularly UK Kocan holders in next few years."

Interesting but how? Once the UK has departed the EU can its citizens still be held accountable under the EU courts and laws? Could the UK homes of those with NC property have their UK homes taken away by the EU courts - was this not part of the reasons people voted OUT, so that they could have the illusion of safety from the EU?

Don't want to start another IN/OUT thread here so be careful how you answer please, we have all had enough of that!

[Dalartokat]

An article in this weeks Cyprus today warns people not to buy pre 1974 Greek Cypriot houses, this is because of a clause currently being discussed that would allow them to return to those homes.
It states that homes built on GC land the original owners would be compensated, it does not however state who pays the compensation, the worry is it may be the current owner

Here's the link...............http://www.lgcnews.com/home-buyers-warn ... roperties/

[Dalartokat]

All these talks of peace and love at the moment and past 41 or more years or so. I was wondering how will this effect non tc who have property's here in north Cyprus. I am not trying to stir things up I just would like to know what will happen to non tcs Ie Brits, Russians, Germans, Israelis etc. I think leaders like to talks but that's all that ever happens here in Cyprus , cup of coffee and chat 41 years later and we are at the same position as we were at the beginning. I am not a very good chess player but it looks like a stalemate to me where no positive outcome can be achieved for either side. What are other people's thoughts on this or am I only one that thinks this way?? I think there are many who have thoughts but tend to opt for the ostrich syndrome keep head in the sand and it will go away. It will never go away in my understanding and in what I have seen over the past 41years. God help us all.

..and this attitude towards those wanting to get to TRNC won't help either...http://www.lgcnews.com/greek-cypriot-op ... ort-users/

[waz-24-7]

"Certainly UK EXPATS will become more vulnerable and exposed as we depart the EU fold.
This weakness will most certainly be capitalised upon by the GC and I would expect new lines of attack on particularly UK Kocan holders in next few years."

Interesting but how? Once the UK has departed the EU can its citizens still be held accountable under the EU courts and laws? Could the UK homes of those with NC property have their UK homes taken away by the EU courts - was this not part of the reasons people voted OUT, so that they could have the illusion of safety from the EU?

Don't want to start another IN/OUT thread here so be careful how you answer please, we have all had enough of that!

The Courts of the ROC have precedent on Cyprus and EU law will also apply as the Island is European in the eyes of the world.
UK Kocan holders in the TRNC will have a diminished level of protection by European law given that the UK is a stand alone independent.
UK law and is courts will have no jurisdictions or influence on Cyprus.
The Orams case was initiated within the Courts of the ROC. It was application to and hearings within the courts of the EU that resolved the matter.
Without intervention of European law the courts of the ROC will most surely send UK Kocan holders to slaughter without mercy. The UK outside of Europe will certainly label UK EX PATS as softer and less protected targets for vindictive and glory hunting ROC baggers.
EU citizens indeed have a very good level of security and prestige upon the world stage. Ask any indigenous TC. My guess is that up to 80% have travelled south to secure their lucrative freedom to travel EU passports that the ROC has very cleverly made available to Cypriots.
It s absolute nonsense to think that being outside the European union will make Ex pats safer and more secure particularly in TRNC

[Lurucinali]

We have no idea what is in the agreement as yet. I would wait to see what is in the agreement. I do have one question though. When you were buying the property were you aware that the price of the property was much lower then a comparable pre-74 Turkish Cypriot property. I bought a plot of pre-74 Turkish Cypriot property and paid double the price for it. I do think that if you bought an exchange property at least you have something in the south to bargain with.


this makes interesting reading. we have waited for 53 years and we can wait for another 60 months. Kibris postasi has got it just about right.

http://northcyprusfreepress.com/referen ... ix-months/

[waddo]

Did not buy property, leased pre-74 Turkish land and built on it. After 50 years both land and property will belong to original owner - we looked at it as having paid 50 years rental up front! Worked out to around £180.00 a month with no rent increase for 50 years!

[Lurucinali]

Why not buy it outright and hand it over to your children, I am sure it would be cheaper per month in the long run.

[waddo]

And if you have no children? Or, as in our case, we did not want to take the land away from Turkish Cypriots just because we could afford to - need to think of the future of the Island and the families of the people who willingly sell their land off without thinking about it themselves!

All in all it cost us just over £100K for the lease, the house, the pool, the gardens and much, much more. We both (us and the owner of the land) got stung later by the grasping government who suddenly made up their mind that they wanted KDV on the leasehold in the same way as they now charge 13% KDV on any rental income, but that's life and the way we had drawn up the lease actually proved advantageous to both of us in the long term.

It means that either of us that is left can stay on the land and in our own house till the day of death without any worry at all - you can't buy that!

[lavender]

I don't think the talks will go anywhere! You only have to look at the recent snubs from the South regarding the recent ROC forest fires and as Dalortokat states, the recent political parties suggestions that all GC flying into Ercan should be financially penalised. Such reporting confirms the true feelings. There are many more examples of how both sides could have worked together but sadly didn't manage too and such incidents speak volumes about the future of Cyprus. Add to this the recent events in Turkey and the future looks bleak for the TRNC. Mistreated by Turkey or the ROC? What a choice!

As for having more protection and support being in the EU, there has been little evidence of this so far. Loads of buyers have been blatantly scammed both in the TRNC and the ROC, yet very few have had any sort of support or legal redress. Lets be truthful neither the TRNC, Turkey or the EU have intervened in any way to help the property victims, One can only conclude that the needs of foreign buyers of GC property will be way down the list of priorities and that there will be little sympathy for those that may loose their homes or have to cough up more money. It will most likely be just like the Oram's outcome - you lose your villa but the TRNC still wants your taxes and rates!
Do people really believe that as part of any settlement foreigners may get an exchange property in the South? As far as I can see the only people involved in the exchange were the TRNC Government, certainly the GC have never agreed to exchanging their property other than those that took the legal route through the IPC. Its a myth that part of any settlement will include exchanges for properties in the South.

[Lurucinali]

How can it be a myth, it has laready happened even though it was against the wishes of the RoC. I only mentioned the properties in the south as a bargaining chip so those that live on a property that has been exchanged with property in the south have better chance of keeping their property. It is true that most of the Turkish Cypriots properties have been exchanged and the deeds are in the hands of the TRNC, so in a fair exchange these will be used. What happenes to those who were given to the settlers will be in the lowest wrang of the ladder I suspect. Although the values of properties in the south are a lot more valuable than those in the north.

But I guess it is only fair to ask the owners who have settler properties to contribute to the purchasing of the land from the original owners or perhaps sell their properties to the original owner. The formula will be fair what ever it is and will apply to both communities fairly.

[jamboree]

So what would happen to land that was given to settlers then they sold the land off and went back to turkey. It seems these people have made a tidy profit and the person left with the property is to face the music? Property developers are still developing in girne. If there is going to be an aggrement in the near future then why is work still being done? Why is the government allowing it knowing these issues. Or do they know something we do not??

[jamboree]

One more thing even if the north and the south come to an agreement, there has to be a referendum vote I think? Last time the south said no north said yes, but what happen if it's a no. I have a feeling the country is just going round in circles with no end to it?

[Keithcaley]

So what would happen to land that was given to settlers then they sold the land off and went back to turkey. It seems these people have made a tidy profit and the person left with the property is to face the music? Property developers are still developing in girne. If there is going to be an aggrement in the near future then why is work still being done? Why is the government allowing it knowing these issues. Or do they know something we do not??

I suspect that current ooccupiers of land which has been 'developed ' think that they will be in a stronger position than those sitting on undeveloped property, hence the unseemly rush to get something built!

[lavender]

Spot on Keith. It has long been a case of get it developed and make as much money as possible then pass the problem onto the new purchaser. Lurucinali, exchange has only ever occurred via the now disbanded Immovable Property Commission and only ever between the true and legal owners (TC and GC) and not foreigners. If it was such a simple solution as exchanging with a Southern property, would this not have been the outcome for the Oram's, instead of total abandonment of their GC "exchange deeds property"?

[Lurucinali]

I don't know if the Oram's property was built on a property given to a TC as exchange or a settler. Judging by what the court decided, it sounds as though it was a settler. In any case, the Orams were advised not to contest the case in the RoC.

One of the reasons why exchange with the IPC did not work was because RoC did not play ball and fought every decision that was made. Only those who took the RoC to EU court succeeded to get their exchange. Another was the myth that IPC was valuing the properties at 10% of their real value, helped by Africa Newspaper reports which Greek Cypriots do read.

In the future the two governments will be in agreement and the property issue will be left to an organisation set up for the purpose to settle any disagreements according to the rules that will be set in the agreement. These rules will apply to both sides.

As to the referendum, I am afraid it may not happen. It was originally brought in to by-pass Dengtash's intransigence. It can just as easily be removed and a vote by MPs from both sides can decide the matter too.

[karmels]

Lurucinali.
The Orams house was one of two buit on the same GC land, the Orams lost there's but the TC family still live in the other one.
This was due to the fact the GC owners were going to snatch the Orams UK propery with a court order.

[Lurucinali]

Lurucinali.
The Orams house was one of two buit on the same GC land, the Orams lost there's but the TC family still live in the other one.
This was due to the fact the GC owners were going to snatch the Orams UK propery with a court order.

do you know if the land was originally given to a TC or a settler?

[karmels]

Sorry I can't remember, the case was so long ago.

[JBA]

Now we are leaving the EU there can never be another Oram's case. They could threaten the Oram's UK property only because of an EU regulation that a judgement in the courts of any EU country was enforceable in all EU countries. Further, the validity of that judgement could not be questioned other than in the original court so there was little the Oram's could do once the South's court had ruled in favour of the GC.

[Dalartokat]

Without taking away the original topic, this link gives a good background to the Oram's case as a reminder of what happened..


http://www.embargoed.org/downloads/Oram ... 1Nov09.pdf

[lavender]

https://healys.com/blog/category/insigh ... log-posts/

n 2002, Mr and Mrs Orams spent their life savings on the now-controversial plot of land with its semi-derelict house which they renovated and extended. They bought it in good faith from a Turkish Cypriot, did everything according to local law and were given a TRNC land deed, known as esdeger. Local estate agents told them Greek Cypriots had been recompensed with land in the south, a disputed system dating from the unofficial partition.

But, in 2004 the Greek pre-partition owner of the property, Meletios Apostolides, claimed the Orams were trespassing. The argument of his lawyer was that Cypriot Republican law did not recognise the (compulsory) land exchange, and his rights were enforceable in the north of the island.

[Lurucinali]

https://healys.com/blog/category/insigh ... log-posts/

n 2002, Mr and Mrs Orams spent their life savings on the now-controversial plot of land with its semi-derelict house which they renovated and extended. They bought it in good faith from a Turkish Cypriot, did everything according to local law and were given a TRNC land deed, known as esdeger. Local estate agents told them Greek Cypriots had been recompensed with land in the south, a disputed system dating from the unofficial partition.

But, in 2004 the Greek pre-partition owner of the property, Meletios Apostolides, claimed the Orams were trespassing. The argument of his lawyer was that Cypriot Republican law did not recognise the (compulsory) land exchange, and his rights were enforceable in the north of the island.

The Estate agent clearly told them a lie. Apostolides did not apply to the IPC and exchange his property. Very few Greek Cypriots applied for exchange - few thousand or so. But the biggest mistake was not defending themselves on the advice of the TRNC.

I would not count on Brexit, if UK wants to do any trade with the EU, they would have to implement all the EU regulations. I cannot see that ever happening.

[lavender]

Apostolides did not apply to the IPC because like many GC he did not want anything other than his family home back. Therein lies the problem, he did not exchange his property and that being the case is he not still the legal owner of his property?

[jofra]

Just as a matter of curiosity, without favour or bias -
From Healys.com blog - "....the displacement of many thousands of Cypriots who abandoned their properties and moved either to the part of the island with a majority of their ethnic group or abroad."
At the time (and since?) of Meletios Apostolides starting his action, did he still live in Cyprus, or had he moved abroad?
If still in Cyprus, was the property in which he was now living/holding, previously Greek-Cypriot owned or Turkish-Cypriot (abandoned)? Whichever prior ownership, justice should have ensured this was taken into consideration - unfortunately, (not only in Cyprus but throughout the world) justice means nothing and falls victim to legalities all the time....

[Lurucinali]

Unfortunately we shall never know that becasue there was no trial. Although he is an Architect and I suspect he has a few quid to be able to take the action he did all the way to EU court via British court.

Not only GCs were given some property they and their children were given financial help to build a home too. In terms of property as a home, 60000 Turkish Cypriots moved north and 160,000 Greek Cypriots moved south so clearly there would not be enough properties to go round. But of course a lot of people from both community left Cyprus after 1974.

[Groucho]

It's odd how bare numbers don't reflect the sense of bewilderment that must have prevailed at the time and during the years leading up to the separation of the two communities that were relocated. Many TC's forced to live in so called 'Happy valley' a tented settlement on the Mesaoria plain where they remained for a long time through some bitter weather.

60,000 out of a small population is a big upheaval too but commentators only seem interested in the Greek Cypriot view of the events... Using Turkey as the invading 'demon' in all this... when they were the only body willing to act to stop the annihilation of the Turkish Cypriot community that was turned on by baying mobs of murderous EOKA-B thugs intent on wiping them off the face of the globe.

[DenizIsmail]

On 20 October 2006, an amendment to the Republic of Cyprus criminal code relating to property came into effect. Under the amendment, buying, selling, renting, promoting or mortgaging a property without the permission of the owner (the person whose ownership is registered with the Republic of Cyprus Land Registry, including Greek Cypriots displaced from northern Cyprus in 1974) is a criminal offence. The maximum prison sentence is 7 years. The amendment to the law also states that any attempt to undertake such a transaction is a criminal offence and could result in a prison sentence of up to 5 years. This law is not retrospective, so will not criminalise transactions that took place before 20 October 2006.

Furthermore, documents relating to the purchase of property in the north of Cyprus will be presumed by the Cypriot authorities to relate to the illegal transfer of Greek Cypriot property and may be subject to confiscation when crossing the Green Line. Anyone found in possession of these documents may be asked to make a statement to the Cypriot authorities and could face criminal proceedings under the 20 October amendment. Any enquiries regarding the scope of this law should be made to the Republic of Cyprus High Commission in London or to the Ministry of Foreign affairs for the Republic of Cyprus:

[waddo]

"Many TC's forced to live in so called 'Happy valley' a tented settlement on the Mesaoria plain where they remained for a long time through some bitter weather"

Can we be a little careful with the name "Happy Valley" please? For many years prior to at least 1965, "Happy Valley" was known by all the inhabitants of Cyprus to be a part of the then RAF Episkopi and is in fact on the southern coast line of the SBA area and connected to the sea by a tunnel through the hillside! Confusion could easily arise over the use of this name as the original "Happy Valley" was the place that Turkish Cypriots were looked after - in tented accommodation until they could be transferred to the North side of the Island.

This: http://www.rafakrotiri.co.uk/episkopi/ makes for interesting reading if you have not seen it before and may give the reader a glimpse of what was happening back in 1974!

[Keithcaley]

DenizIsmail, I don't dispute the veracity of what you have posted, but could I ask that when you cut and paste a chunk of text, that you quote the source of the material please?

Some sources may be absolutely 'straight' reporting, while others may be biased one way or another, and if we don't know where you got the text from, then we cannot properly assess it

I have done a search, using sections of the text that you posted, and it looks as though, in this case, you took the text from the UK Government website, so we know its source, but it is not always so easy to trace, and having an attribution saves a lot of effort...

[lavender]

Jofra message 30. This interview may answer some of your questions.

http://www.irishleftreview.org/2010/02/ ... ostolides/

[waz-24-7]

The Orams case was a landmark fight to from a legal precedent. Both sides were heavily supported by respective administrations. ROC and Turkey .
The case was never really about the property. Mr Apostolides had no intent to ever return to his property. The case was set out to secure international recognition of the ROC case and to discredit the TRNC, turkey and anyone with property interests in TRNC.
The property issue within the settlement talks is always a stumbling block and the ROC will capitalise upon any opportunity to create a similar Orams type case to highlight their discomfort.
Certainly the fact that UK ex pats are no longer fellow Europeans but are aliens make them a softer target for litigation and entrapment.
Travelling into the ROC and use of its facilities and services will become more risky and dangerous for Uk citizens with any interest within the TRNC

[Lurucinali]

On 20 October 2006, an amendment to the Republic of Cyprus criminal code relating to property came into effect. Under the amendment, buying, selling, renting, promoting or mortgaging a property without the permission of the owner (the person whose ownership is registered with the Republic of Cyprus Land Registry, including Greek Cypriots displaced from northern Cyprus in 1974) is a criminal offence. The maximum prison sentence is 7 years. The amendment to the law also states that any attempt to undertake such a transaction is a criminal offence and could result in a prison sentence of up to 5 years. This law is not retrospective, so will not criminalise transactions that took place before 20 October 2006.

Furthermore, documents relating to the purchase of property in the north of Cyprus will be presumed by the Cypriot authorities to relate to the illegal transfer of Greek Cypriot property and may be subject to confiscation when crossing the Green Line. Anyone found in possession of these documents may be asked to make a statement to the Cypriot authorities and could face criminal proceedings under the 20 October amendment. Any enquiries regarding the scope of this law should be made to the Republic of Cyprus High Commission in London or to the Ministry of Foreign affairs for the Republic of Cyprus:

It is also illegal to enter Cyprus through Ercan Airport. One Greek Cypriot was taken to court for using Ercan and the case collapesed and nobody has ever been taken to court for it since. The same aplies to sales of property in north. Many buyers have crossed over and nobody has yet ever been arrested for it yet. The law was passed becasue it makes our fanatics friends in the south who do not want peace feel better. It serves noother purpose.

[Lurucinali]

"Many TC's forced to live in so called 'Happy valley' a tented settlement on the Mesaoria plain where they remained for a long time through some bitter weather"

Can we be a little careful with the name "Happy Valley" please? For many years prior to at least 1965, "Happy Valley" was known by all the inhabitants of Cyprus to be a part of the then RAF Episkopi and is in fact on the southern coast line of the SBA area and connected to the sea by a tunnel through the hillside! Confusion could easily arise over the use of this name as the original "Happy Valley" was the place that Turkish Cypriots were looked after - in tented accommodation until they could be transferred to the North side of the Island.

This: http://www.rafakrotiri.co.uk/episkopi/ makes for interesting reading if you have not seen it before and may give the reader a glimpse of what was happening back in 1974!

I was in Cyprus in the 60s and lived the days of the refugees. It was February 1964 when Turkish Cypriots from Piroi, Goshi, Petrofan, Dali, Potamia and Aysozomeno villages moved into Lurucina. The cause of this migration was a very simple one. A Turkish Cypriot shepherd went missing on the 30th of December 1963. Few weeks later TMT organised an attack on a police car at a water well and the rest is history. Dali and Potamia Turkish Cypriots were only armed with shotguns. Aysozomeno Turkish Cypriots I think had about 10 rifles and some shotguns. The TMT leader in Aysozomeno decided on this attack which caused the attack on their village first and then of course trust went out of the window. All three villages emtied over night. I say all but there were some Turkish Cypriots who stayed in Dali and Potamia and none were hurt ever. The Petrofan and Goshi residents went back avter a while and they were not hurt either.

You have to look deeper into Cyprus problem to understand what really went on. What we need is a Truth Commision where people will be obliged to speak the truth or go to prison and once the first person speak the rest will follow. Then we will really have a good understanding as to who did what to whom and who gave the orders.

[jofra]

"... Although he is an Architect ..."
"Re the Irish Review - can we be sure he is not a politician? No straight answers, plenty of emotive quote-worthy soundbites, emphasis on those 'neighbours' who "...return, armed to the hilt...", while he "is enlisted and fights" - as the article title says - it could have been a screenplay.....

[Lurucinali]

having waited for peace for 43 years after losing his home, you can't blame the man taking action to try getting his home back. Admittedly it has not returned his home to him but it must make him feel better for doing it. Its a bit like the laws that are passed in the south. they have no effect but it does make some people feel better.

[lavender]

The real question is who are the guilty parties and who are the victims? The Orams's who although they followed the legal procedure for purchasing in the TRNC, knew that the land was owned by a Greek Cypriot but chose to ignore all the warnings. Some might say they
knowingly gambled and lost? The TC who sold it to the Oram's? Did he have the right to sell it? Was it gifted because of "connections" or had he lost property in the South? Has he still got property in the South? Certainly Mr Apostilides is a victim, let down by the GC and TRNC Governments that have failed miserably over the years to constructively negotiate a settlement. Or do you consider it to be the TRNC Government who instead of using the GC homes as temporary housing for its displaced citizens chose to gift them to people they thought deserving (Turkish military did very well) and saw land and properties as the spoils of war and concocted the exchange property myth and promoted the selling and development of GC land?
Turkey did at least try to solve the problem with the Immovable Property Commission but sadly this was disbanded when they asked the TRNC to contribute financially with the settlements and they refused. Hence one of the few means of settlement is now totally ineffective. Obviously I am under no illusion that the TC properties in South supposedly being looked after by "Guardians" have also been misappropriated. I know many fell under compulsory purchase orders for development, a situation which should allow financial compensation speedily but few TC will have received their dues.

You can see why territories are under negotiations rather than concentrating on properties in the talks.

[niceone]

There are three main points that they have always had trouble agreeing on

Land/property

The removal of the Turkish army

The removal of settlers

In the case of settlers, the GC's want all the Turkish mainlanders who have settled to leave as they boost the TC population, many of these were actually born in North Cyprus

[Lurucinali]

Land and propery is almost agreed
Turkish Army will withdraw from Cyprus in phases like the agreement in 2004
The GCs leadership agree that anybody with a TRNC passport can remain, the only settlers in question are the ones who have not yet got citizenship.

we are not that far froman agreement. Like I said before, it need not be decided by a referendum. it can just as easily be decided by the two parliements. The idea of a referendum was brought in by UN do by-pass Dengtash and they can just as easily remove it.

[JBA]

It's not just the presence or absence of the Turkish army, it is the matter of the guarantee. The Turkish Air force is 4 mins flying time away so the army presence isn't so important. There were several occasions between 1963 and1974 when a simple flypast by Turkish jets halted hostile GC activity, and a couple of bombing runs during the invasion which stopped massacres in TC enclaves that the invading troops hadn't yet reached.

So if Turkey retain the legal right to intervene under appropriate circumstances then any hostile GCs plans will always be held in check. I don't believe either Turkey or TRNC will give up that guarantee - not after the treachery displayed from 1963 onwards.

You are dealing with politicians here and both of the leaders know full well that if the promised referendum is not held then they will never get a vote again. So you must think us rather naive to ask us to believe that the UN can change it at a whim.

[DenizIsmail]

My own opinion I feel that its only right that a referendum is held as this is what the 2 leaders have been saying since the initial meetings commenced. Also we were always informed to the discussions between the 2 leaders and then this was later changed. So now if the leaders decide among themselves to the outcome of the Cyprus Problem it would feel that we have been cheated!

[Lurucinali]

It's not just the presence or absence of the Turkish army, it is the matter of the guarantee. The Turkish Air force is 4 mins flying time away so the army presence isn't so important. There were several occasions between 1963 and1974 when a simple flypast by Turkish jets halted hostile GC activity, and a couple of bombing runs during the invasion which stopped massacres in TC enclaves that the invading troops hadn't yet reached.

So if Turkey retain the legal right to intervene under appropriate circumstances then any hostile GCs plans will always be held in check. I don't believe either Turkey or TRNC will give up that guarantee - not after the treachery displayed from 1963 onwards.

You are dealing with politicians here and both of the leaders know full well that if the promised referendum is not held then they will never get a vote again. So you must think us rather naive to ask us to believe that the UN can change it at a whim.

The Guarantee is up for negotiation. There is talk of Turkey only guaranteeing the Turkish Cypriot Federal State may be acceptable to GC leadership.

Well it was UN who changed from Leaders Agreement to a referendum on whim, so why not reverse it. How many wars have we had where the agreement was after a referendum. The leaders get elected to negotiate and they should be able to sign the peace agreement.

Did the Germans in the end of either of the two world war got a referendum to agree on the peace deal?

[Lurucinali]

My own opinion I feel that its only right that a referendum is held as this is what the 2 leaders have been saying since the initial meetings commenced. Also we were always informed to the discussions between the 2 leaders and then this was later changed. So now if the leaders decide among themselves to the outcome of the Cyprus Problem it would feel that we have been cheated!

How have you been cheated if an Elected leader signs the agreement? Is that not why we elect leaders in a democracy. It was after all the UN who changed it to referendum so that Dengtash can be removed from the equation because he kept saying no to everything for decades.

[JBA]

Of course the guarantee is up for negotiation - but negotiations do not always produce agreements. The South have publicly stated that there can be no agreement if the guarantees remain, the North and Turkey have publicly stated that they must always remain - difficult positions to back down from.

As to the referendum, the Annan plan was a UN plan and maybe that gave them the chance to introduce the referendum - but I bet that, having promised it, they dared not change their minds. This will not be a UN plan when it is published, it is the leaders' plan with only guidance and pressure from the UN - a very different thing. And the referendum has always been part of the negotiations even before they began (back with Talat and the then GC presdident), and the promise of it was virtually the only reason many voted for the pro-peace politicians. Removing the referendum might be the one thing that would unite the peoples of North and South - but unite them in riotous protest I suspect.

[DenizIsmail]

Lurucinali what would you consider to be a successful outcome to the Cyprus Solution?