Break up of the United Kingdom

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 14 Oct 2016 1:41 pm

I was one of those posters on the Brexit subject that have disappeared Waz..... but not for the reason you quote.

What I will say is if there was another vote tomorrow I would vote exactly the same....OUT.

The brexiteers are simply watching the situation with interest rather than running around like an headless chicken spewing bilge and making up wild scenarios that don't and probably will not happen.
Yes the pound has had a bit of a duffing up of late but history tells us it will bounce back so I will say again Waz....stop being hysterical.

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Fri 14 Oct 2016 7:56 pm

turtle wrote:I was one of those posters on the Brexit subject that have disappeared Waz..... but not for the reason you quote.

What I will say is if there was another vote tomorrow I would vote exactly the same....OUT.

The brexiteers are simply watching the situation with interest rather than running around like an headless chicken spewing bilge and making up wild scenarios that don't and probably will not happen.
Yes the pound has had a bit of a duffing up of late but history tells us it will bounce back so I will say again Waz....stop being hysterical.

Agree with you turtle, jeeeeez, Waz, you really do not understand how we Brexit people can't wait to get rid of the shackles of the EU, your surmising is just no better than those that spread fear to the remain folk! ....
Can't you think of any thing positive Waz ? ... You sound very negative in every thing you write and quite honestly it's become quite boring the whole tone of your posts ... Just saying ...

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 14 Oct 2016 8:29 pm

OK
So the UK is really sweet outside of the EU. Is it?
I simply ask you.
How indeed are we better off? Do you feel better or worse off than you were 4 months ago.
You are certainly poorer and I am afraid the worse (on that front) is still to come.

Why would anyone still vote OUT ?
Perhaps it is the heaps of spare money we were promised and now have!! That's a non starter.
Perhaps its the strength of leadership from the likes of Boris and Farage. They soon deserted the field!!
Perhaps its the strong sense of togetherness in the UK as Scotland and NI seek a UK split up? A United Kingdom most certainly not!!

Please therefore do tell me why you would still vote OUT.
Certainly the predicted currency crash has hit and soon inflation will grasp the UK economy. These are the critical points that many ignored and failed to acknowledge. The financial burden is developing and I read desperate posts to relate how sterling and or markets are regaining strength. Such lack of understanding of reality is breath taking. Yes, Please do watch with interest as the expert predictions ring true and the cost of BREXIT hits home.

Without doubt we must pull on through and the UK will survive. I simply relay my pre brexit posts ....Brexit for what?... absolutely nothing in my view.
The shackles of Europe as someone refers to may be cast off. The chains of isolation, imprisonment tariff, and exclusion are far heavier to carry.

The divorce settlement negotiations are certainly underway and as in any divorce. There will be NO real winners.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 14 Oct 2016 8:43 pm

PoshinDevon wrote:Waz

I have already said that if I could be bothered I am confident I could find, articles, news items, political comment etc etc to back up my more positive view on Brexit. However I would rather read, listen and wait to see how things develop and not sit and worry about what may or may not happen. Whatever anyone who wants to leave the EU posts, I am also confident you will pour cold water on their comment.

Given your recent triple postings on this topic your doing well at flogging a dead horse so to speak.

Posh
The facts of BREXIT have started to unfold. I have monitored the developments over past months and the truths of BREXIT are ringing true. The time to continue a debate is right for those with interest in their future outside the EU.
Please do relay some positives. I am have experienced none. Have you?
certainly , I agree, to worry is of no benefit. To prepare and make financial provision would be prudent. Currencies will remain volatile as USA elections come forth . USA interest rates are likely to go up and sterling will most certainly fall again.

The UK is in no way a dead horse. The task ahead is immense for people of influence and substance. The majority will simply watch, suffer and make do wondering why they are poorer and no longer enjoy their European cross border privileges. This is a shame.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Fri 14 Oct 2016 9:20 pm

Waz

Your very nearly talking to yourself.

I am happy with Brexit so will leave you to discuss the doom and gloom scenarios with anyone who wishes to engage with you.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 14 Oct 2016 9:29 pm

Rather a poor response Posh
Kop out I think
No worries

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 6:51 am

While I have posted one or two comments and queries in this and the other assorted threads re "Brexit", I never stated my choice; simply because I was not interested in being harangued by any who held opposing views to a degree of fanaticism - and there appeared to be several!
However, I will now say that I was/am in favour of remaining - but it now a "done deal", over and done with, "the people have spoken" - so let's drop it!
This has become an interminable wrangle, and Waz, while I agree with many concerns - as yet unproven to be permanent - your last post seems to indicate that you wish to continue this interminable wrangle - thankfully, fewer and fewer people appear to be "responding" to your posts, but as said, your last reply (to Posh) is not a reasoned answer, but appears designed merely to provoke and continue a tired, pointless and now boring argument....
So - EVERYBODY - just please say "Yes, Waz, everything you say is right; everyone of us is wrong" -
And let's put this whole thread (and any and all others on this topic) in the bin where it now belongs.....

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 7:27 am

jofra wrote:While I have posted one or two comments and queries in this and the other assorted threads re "Brexit", I never stated my choice; simply because I was not interested in being harangued by any who held opposing views to a degree of fanaticism - and there appeared to be several!
However, I will now say that I was/am in favour of remaining - but it now a "done deal", over and done with, "the people have spoken" - so let's drop it!
This has become an interminable wrangle, and Waz, while I agree with many concerns - as yet unproven to be permanent - your last post seems to indicate that you wish to continue this interminable wrangle - thankfully, fewer and fewer people appear to be "responding" to your posts, but as said, your last reply (to Posh) is not a reasoned answer, but appears designed merely to provoke and continue a tired, pointless and now boring argument....
So - EVERYBODY - just please say "Yes, Waz, everything you say is right; everyone of us is wrong" -
And let's put this whole thread (and any and all others on this topic) in the bin where it now belongs.....

jofra,

Appreciate your comments above. If you read thro this topic from the beginning you will see many good arguments fromboth camps on Brexit. None of us is 100% correct. However the decision has been made and whilst no one really knows how things will pan out, I just wish those predicting doom, gloom and disaster would hold back just a little. I and others have posted reasoned arguments to support their point of view but I personally have decided to drop out of discussion until more details re Brexit are clear.

Many have dropped out of posting on the topic for various reasons but I believe it should remain open. Some members have suggested debate and discussion is not happening on the forum, so this topic is there for those who feel they want to discuss and debate further.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 8:19 am

waz, you do not get it.. you have your country back !!

it is rediculouis to believe that a brexit can be downscaled to "exchange rates", "access to single market", "new trade agreements" and "free fishing in the north sea"...
there are millions and millions who do not care about your funds you might lose.
they have nothing to lose. they are born poor and their children will remain poor.
they do not care about the exchange rate to the dollar or euro (it has pros and cons anyway).
they want a future. payable rents, a job which pays expenses, a better NHS...the list is long.
eg, a better education system which gives them a chance , 6- 9000 GBP tuition fees, crazy. in germany you pay 100 - 500 euros.
with that politics only a rich child can become a doctor and with that politics and a high GBP the UK brain drains other (EU) countries.
result: the patients complaint that the doctors does not know proper english...

ok, for all that the UK would not need a brexit and nobody in the EU would ever be against these reformes..that would be a sovereign decision of a country. thats another subject.

but now, the reformes become inevitable, because the country has to finance itself after brexit. maybe a low GBP is not attractive any more for foreign doctors and litvanian cucumber pickers..
could be higher taxes for the rich and super rich, could be a higher capital tax.. whatever, they may try to get your funds, waz, which you surely cleverly changed into Euro and dollar already... and complaining here that the GBP lost value.

you see, the path to go is open.. (and thats why juncker ruled we will not talk to the UK until they have an idea where to go... )

in one point you are right... if not tell everybody about the positives of a brexit, at least they could make suggestions what they would like to change.
but, many here may will not admit that they share views like wotnodeeds or admit that jeremy corbyn is a whimp and still to far in the middle.... the polarisation in your country is in full swing.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 11:12 am

The topic that emerges after BREXIT is clear. Where does the UK go now. What is the future of the United Kingdom?
I am sorry Kibsolar but I do not think I have my country back. It remains in turmoil as Scotland and NI seek a departure from The United Kingdom.
Perhaps we should now dissolve the United Kingdom and allow even further division and isolation. Perhaps foreigners should be barred from London !! London for the English even!! Britain has always been Britain. Britain as a part of Europe is in my view critical for Peace and Prosperity in the world.

BREXIT is indeed far more than exchange rates and the economy. However these particular factors reflect upon peoples livelihoods, prosperity and prospects. The younger generation now have the task to re build the integration of the UK onto the world stage, the global economy, and the global political landscape. Rather a challenge I fear as the UK declines in is influence and presence after BREXIT.

The view that the UK is better off as a stand alone carries no credence or prospect for prosperity. It should be clear that the predictions made by so many experts , personalities and leaders are ringing true. Anyone who can sell me the positive truths and predictions from the BREXIT camp please step up and post. Does anyone feel better off ?
The pity is that many still believe they made a good decision. Many have no further interest and possibly do not even understand that the pound in their pot is now only worth 82 pence. Someone some weeks ago told me that the poor tl exchange rate was only because it is Summer and it always goes down in Summer!! If only!! come on the Winter!!
Of course the mistake has been made and I do not relinquish the task ahead. The shame is that the majority, possibly and probably in ignorance of the personal cost voted for this. These same people also possibly cannot see the road map ahead when inflation grasps the Uk economy prices rise and employment and economic prospect are put into decline. Pensions and savings in Sterling are now worth far less and declining. This is the short term prospect into 2017. The government has no plan or strategy having been thrust into the shock situation. That shortfall can only sustain uncertainty and further decline.
The wait and see should now become hope and plan for a rough ride over an uncertain course.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 12:14 pm

Fill in the blanks as appropriate

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 12:48 pm

When Britain was "Great" it had an Empire - very few people will remember the days of Great Britain, I am certainly not one of them as I was only just born in 1947 - the date that most historians give as the real start of the decline of the Empire, when Britain pulled out of India for good. So why was it that one of the big issues in the referendum was making Britain "Great" again? Who would want to go back to a time when Britain had an Empire that in itself was to large to sustain and was financially crippling the country - strange?

However, during the run up to the referendum both the leaves and the remains spread a tissue of falsehoods and downright lies about what their respective outcomes would be when either of them won. For whatever reasons each and every voter voted for, they themselves believed that they were right and that Britain would be better off doing what they thought. I was and remain one of those who voted (only just because of postal problems to and from the TRNC) to keep Britain in the EU. I enjoyed the following debates about how bad it was that Britain voted to leave and how good it will be in the future, now that Britain will soon (just how long is that piece of string?) be standing alone against the world having left.

I to think this debate should be kept open and that people should continue to put forward their independent views on what the future holds. There is no need nor requirement for animosity in such debates and hopefully there will be no need for any "Told you so's" over the next years as the situation unfolds. In fact these debates could prove to be useful to the expat community as such community is composed of many very clever people who are either retired or not and have their individual fingers on the pulse of what is or is likely to happen - a much better source of information than the CT newspaper would ever aspire to! Sadly, I am not one of them and must therefore trawl the Internet for information and then make my personal decisions on how best to manage my paltry sums of money for the future - make no mistake here people, it is always about money and always will be!!!

It is almost impossible to find "current" data upon which to base your decisions but it is possible to predict trends based on past data - the National Office of Statistics is established for exactly that reason and their website (http://visual.ons.gov.uk/category/busin ... and-trade/) is a mine of useful and interesting information, in fact lots of questions asked on here have already been answered on that site but you have to be interested enough to find it.

So, the only thing I can say for sure is this - Regardless of the result of the referendum, Great Britain is still in the EU - Now 113 days after the result nothing has happened, apart from the pound has fallen against other World currencies, and the Government still has no plan that it is willing to share with anyone on what it will do next.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 1:19 pm

...I was only just born in 1947 - the date that most historians give as the real start of the decline of the Empire...

I knew that it was all your fault!

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 3:23 pm

Thanks Keith - at last after 69 years of trying, my 15 minutes of fame - IT WAS ALL MY FAULT!!!!

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 3:44 pm

waddo - 23932362, can you beat that? Off topic and onto the naughty step.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 5:14 pm

Sorry Tom, over my head goes that number?? Best reply by PM or it will only be deleted as off topic.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 5:25 pm

Waddo
Thank you,
Good content and useful.
I agree with your comments.
What remains an annoyance is that the BREXIT voter seem very unwilling to see the folly of BREXIT. The "duff" up of sterling has cost all rather dear.
On an assumption that many ex pats have say £100K nest egg for their pension, possibly in TRNC banks @ say 9% interest. The immediate cost would be in the region of £18K to date due to sterling collapse. When inflation bites shortly and fuel, food and life essentials are hit my estimate is that a £100K nest egg will have be reduced to a real value on the streets of TRNC to a mere £72K. The prospect for a recovery is very low at least for the next 5 years. And yet we have the few that insist they have "done the right thing". The original estimate from the treasury and Cameron government boffins was that the cost would be circa £3500 per person. Possibly so for some but Ex pats with nest eggs and pensions are being hit hardest given the absence of real income. You are correct. It is and always will be about money. Many posters here do NOT realise this and falsely cling to the "make Britain Great again" and" I did it for my children". The cost of this stance should now be more clear.

Those in the "wait and see camp" will continue to see their assets decline. Some with more wisdom will re align their investments outside of sterling and indeed outside the UK.

A smaller, isolated and less influential UK and less prosperous is now very probable and the climb out from the mess will be long and hard.
Having experienced the similar climb the past 5 years after the financial collapse of 2008. At least we can follow a similar strategy and work to build bridges with Europe that are critical to prosperity. The Younger generation have lost severely after BREXIT as opportunities evaporate before them. The same will however capitalise on opportunity and the bright, educated and ambitious will prosper. For many, they will rely on strong leadership and governance to guide them along a confused and uneven path. There will be many failures and workers rights will suffer enormously as the protections awarded by EU law become obsolete. Travel and respect for the British passport will be diminished to alien status after 40 yrs of EU protection and respect. The view of the ROC towards British expats within the TRNC is very likely to sour and I expect easy border crossings to be a thing of the past once that EU link is finally erased from the British passport.
I do believe that many did not and still do not understand the gravity of BREXIT. They are however surely waking up to the clear financial loss. Are they?? The other losses will come into their radar in due course.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 5:46 pm

Waz, There are some things you report that can not be dismissed no matter which side you are on, for instance the drop in value in Sterling, which has effected us all - even the rich. Oh how I would love to have a nest egg of £100K - even £10K would be acceptable if anyone wish's to donate it I would be most grateful, lol - but we live on Government pensions and they are being degraded by the second to help the poor Lords and MP's afford their lunch's, that is life and there is nothing we can do about it apart from live with it.
I am in agreement with you that it will be a long and hard road ahead no matter what happens and that the fallout from the Brexit vote - never mind Brexit itself will have repercussions long into the future for our children and their children and probably their children as well - again it is life and everyone will learn to live with it.
However, the future is still unknown and what will happen to the UK could not even be seen in a crystal ball. It is for that reason that I will not attempt to suggest what the future holds, only to say that it will not be easy. Should the wrong person (either of them) become the next President of the USA I can imagine that will have a profound effect on trading with the UK, in fact I think the only people willing and happy to trade with the UK will end up being the Chinese as they have nothing to lose with the state of their own economy in disrepair as well.
As for the British expats and the RoC, it will be a game of how far the RoC can push things to stop them visiting. I do not think that the British expats will ever be stopped completely but for sure they will not be allowed to drive as they will no longer hold an EU driving license and the TRNC license will not be recognized as legal if you are not a Cypriot! In fact, at this time, if you live here permanently and drive in the RoC on your EU license you are already breaking the EU laws - check that one out before you tell me I am wrong - so it is just a matter of time for a lot of us.
We live in strange times and it is a shame that the Government that brought us to it do not live in the same times!!

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 5:50 pm

Waz for Christ sake man get a grip of yourself will you.

The best thing you can do is hire a big van....fill it with all your worldly goods and transfer all your pounds to euros and go and live in Germany and wave bye bye to this sick lame country for good.

The UK doesn't need people with your terrible outlook on life.... it must be so much fun in your house around the dinner table........not

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 6:11 pm

Wazzzz for goodness sake , the £ is weaker, but then you have funds doubling, it's called trading! ...
What don't you understand regarding Brexit? Is it democracy ? .. When you go into negotiations Wazz you don't give out what you are asking for before hand do you, Mrs May and her government will do a deal with out shouting about what it is before hand, you don't give away to your opponent your hand do you! ..... If Mrs May were to, Junk (Junker) and Hollandeeeeee would then be spouting off more idiotic threats ...
Can't you understand most of us who voted out are positive people, and are looking forward to having the shackles of the EU gone ...

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 15 Oct 2016 6:22 pm

Hello Wado,
Of course there are exceptions to the £100K scenario. I am certain that you cut the cloth accordingly as we all should. You are correct with regard to the privileged within the UK administration. I am afraid this is seen the world over, even, in fact clearly seen, in the TRNC.

The future is indeed unknown that is certain and this can be an exciting time for youngsters embarking on their passage through education and seeking prosperity in future years. I do think however that BREXIT has dealt the 17-22 age group a poor hand for their first game at the table. A bitter pill given the exclusions dealt to the same group when striving to secure education, work, home ownership and liberty to travel. The strong UK economy pre BREXIT displayed the emergence of new hope and future. The signs now are not so buoyant.

The UK government has a plateful of mess to sort out and a plan remains distant and is desperately needed. The new government department to oversee BREXIT is very well funded and even now seems to beout to lunch awaiting instruction.

The forthcoming USA elections will as always have an effect on world politics and economic outlook. I think USA interest rates will rise by new year thus putting further pressure on an already weakened sterling,

I concur regarding the probable stance of the ROC towards TRNC based or visitors to TRNC. The animosity against residence, investment or support for the TRNC is abundantly clear and cannot be ignored once UK passports lose their highly prized EU status.

Turtle,
You comment warrants no reply apart from the UK government needs to "get a grip"

Mowgli597 · Post by **Mowgli597** » Wed 19 Oct 2016 6:57 am

Kathy Sheridan: From Great Britain to little England
via The Irish Times

One of the more entertaining manifestations of Brexit is watching the Leavers move ever closer to a religious movement, as authoritarian, fanatical and swivel-eyed as any rogue cleric.

Christian Holliday, Tory councillor for Burpham, for example, has launched a formal petition to make supporting EU membership an act of treason. His amendment to the treason felony Act would read as follows: “To imagine, devise, promote, work, or encourage others, to support the UK becoming a member of the EU; To conspire with foreign powers to make the UK, or part of the UK, become a member of the EU”.

Thrillingly, this is not even “semi-parodic”, as Boris Johnson described his persuasive pro-Remain column. A Tory councillor by the marvellous name of Christian Holliday exists, works for an estate agency and has a fiancée called Tammy.

On his wish list is all the usual stuff about parliament, courts, borders and fishing. But “still very important”, he told the local paper, “will be the removal of 12 stars from projects paid for with our own money and from our driving licences, which I resent greatly. I also look forward to the reissuing of truly British passports for the first time in many years. A British passport gets you into more countries visa free than any other – a nod to our global history and our standing in the world. . . ”

Rule Britannia! Thee haughty tyrants ne’er shall tame.

A couple of weeks ago, I met a 72-year-old Londoner who seemed perfectly sane and rational – until Brexit came up. “I don’t care if the economy is down by half in five years time, it will be worth it,” he said through bared teeth, as his Irish-born wife murmured that England seems a colder place since June.

The barking tone is similar to that of the 70-year-old billionaire Peter Hargreaves, top funder to the Leave camp and by far the biggest donor on either side. In June, he predicted insecurity comparable to the aftermath of the retreat from Dunkirk, burbling excitedly that it would be “fantastic”.

When the Daily Telegraph published a Brexit-supporting letter signed by 300 “business leaders” (inflated to “Top Business Leaders” by the Express), commentator Alex Andreou scrutinised the first 20 names and found a dozen businesses so small they were exempt from filing full accounts and a Ukip member’s website set up to sell his own book.

Industrial scale lying

The point of reprising the attitudes and industrial scale lying that lifted the Leave side to victory, is to understand why the Remainers are still frothing with rage and councillor Holliday is nervous. The casual insistence of Johnson and co that everything is grand and the predicted apocalypse never happened, is particularly galling given sterling’s record-breaking plunge, soaring costs for imported food and rising levels of hate crime.

Worse, there is still not a ghost of an outline of a plan nor meaningful offer of accountability to parliament on Brexit negotiations. Paris’ siren call to City of London financial institutions to “Leave the fog and join the Frogs” seems rather apt.

It is obvious now that no rational argument was ever going to sway the Leave vote. That it was always about migration is no longer in question. Theresa May’s determination to prioritise that issue ahead of the single market confirms it.

There are respectable psychological studies that show how people put huge energy into protecting the beliefs they already hold, regardless of contrary evidence placed before them. Their explanations follow a variant of “well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?”

This may explain why a new poll carried in the Observer shows about 60 per cent of the British public supporting continued membership of the single market, even though nearly 52 per cent of voters opted to leave the EU. Were they not listening then or are they not listening now?

Not a government-in-waiting

This week, the director of Vote Leave, Bernard Jenkin, told parliament rather snippily that it was “made very clear in our campaign that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market”. But Vote Leave was merely a catch-all, ragbag, campaign group, not a government-in-waiting whose commitments were binding. Only a year before, the Tory party manifesto stated that the UK must remain in the single market.
Even the Daily Telegraph sketchwriter wondered whether he was given a different ballot paper to everyone else in June. He saw just one question, he wrote - did he want the UK to leave the EU? – but this government seemed to see something entirely different: a mandate to do anything they like.

And if the Telegraph man feels conned, imagine how Remainers feel.

Meanwhile, the attitude of the EU-27 was neatly summarised by Luxembourg’s prime minister, Xavier Bettel, in a tweet : “Before they were in and they had many opt-outs; now they want to be out with many opt-ins.”

And Holliday’s petition tweet had already racked up over 500 signatures before being deleted, alas.

Hedge-fund · Post by **Hedge-fund** » Wed 19 Oct 2016 8:33 am

An Irish newspaper quoting a mad estate agent.

You lost a fair vote - deal with it and move on.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Wed 19 Oct 2016 2:29 pm

Yeah it was a fair vote - both sides told lies but the majority of people believed in the biggest of them. I often wonder what happened to the magic NHS bus that promised the earth and will end up like all bus services, late if arrives at all! Still not to worry because apart from the rich, who could not give a damn anyway, we are all in the same boat now, along with our kids and grand-kids - what a legacy we have left for future generations! So now we have all "Dealt with it" and we wait and wait and wait and wait to move on.

Geoff1131 · Post by **Geoff1131** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 1:34 pm

You seen the business news from the UK today Waz???? Nissan announcing that they will expand the Sunderland car plant to make their cars in the UK. UK growth figures outstripping the expectations. Many businesses saying their order books are filling up and they are expecting to need more people working to cope with the increase. Across the channel one small part of the Belgium government system blocks a massive trade deal with Canada worth billions. The UK is now holding talks with the Canadian trade delegation to try to get a deal signed up between the two countries. Things are just getting better and better. Over too you now waz for the next instalment of ' Doom and Gloom '

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 1:47 pm

Great news!!! Wonder where they will put all their money when the banks pull out of the UK? Then again, I see that the pound has rocketed up to 3.79TL from where it was 4.29TL on the 20th of June. Yep, things are sure looking up.

Geoff1131 · Post by **Geoff1131** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 1:52 pm

Waz,,,,,is that you?????

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 2:15 pm

Yes but 60m Brits have no interest in the TL. ?

David · Post by **David** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 3:26 pm

Wish it was back to 2,4 ....

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 5:25 pm

True indeed, but then 11.9% of Brits have no interest in the Pound either - they have more interest in the Euro and as that is just about the same as the pound now its another major step forward - of course there is also a lot of interest in the exchange rate between the Pound and both the Indian and Pakistani Rupee. Really there are only around 57m "Brits" in the UK and when Scotland and the rest leg it away that will drop again - the pound is really well worth investing in these days, you never know, it could actually go up again - in 10 or 15 years, lol.

Don't take life so seriously, its going to happen no matter what you do!!!!!!!!!!

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 5:57 pm

Geoff1131 wrote:You seen the business news from the UK today Waz???? Nissan announcing that they will expand the Sunderland car plant to make their cars in the UK. UK growth figures outstripping the expectations. Many businesses saying their order books are filling up and they are expecting to need more people working to cope with the increase. Across the channel one small part of the Belgium government system blocks a massive trade deal with Canada worth billions. The UK is now holding talks with the Canadian trade delegation to try to get a deal signed up between the two countries. Things are just getting better and better. Over too you now waz for the next instalment of ' Doom and Gloom '

Just seen this excellent announcment from Nissan. The model was designated to Sunderland 3 yrs ago. The announcement is confirmation.
Never the less good news, The same vehicle is also to be built in Russia ( back up scenario, I think)
A case remains however. The long term after BREXIT is not, in my view, good for the UK or its people.
Certainly we are all paying (financially) dearly right now as sterling has collapsed and remains very weak. I can report that the business that I work within is very busy and our order book is very healthy. This reflects the current fire sale for UK goods, businesses, property in fact anything priced in sterling. Its all cheap cheap cheap! Classic path to inflation and depression.
It is evident that people are now far more focussed upon the UK economy. Possibly because the forecast uncertainty has had a detrimental effect on peoples finances and prospect of prosperity.
The focus remains on how the UK will move forward. Let there be no misunderstanding. Inflation will bight severely in the new year as the weak sterling forces prices upwards. This together with the likely increase in interest rates in USA before Xmas will further lead to further decline in sterling as other currencies offer better returns.
This is a simple truth not doom and gloom. I remain amazed how several cannot read the signs and still desperately seek any minor positive to provide self comfort for their possible error in judgment.
Once article 50 is submitted , expect further decline and ex pats will certainly be hit hard. Of course several who have tl invested from the 2.4 tl/£ days will attain solace but this will be short lived until new money comes onto the field OR you return to the UK.

In years to come when the EU passport is scraped and the UK citizen becomes a European alien then expect little consolation or sympathy. Expect a far lower level of security and protection in the UK and certainly on the continent. Expect very expensive European healthcare. Expect travel restrictions and tariffs. The absence of the UK from any European led deals and negotiations will cost the UK dear and I foresee a stronger better Europe with the UK isolated to the fringes with the likes of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland.

Geoff this is my view, Doom and Gloom to you but you should wake up and smell the coffee. I ask again what real positives do we have to date? Are you indeed better off. I expect not. Are you the NEW liberated brit with so much more than you had 4 months ago?
The lack of a plan after BREXIT particularly from the BREXIT heads of state ( where are they now!! ) is a real cause for concern. The failure to follow clear advice has won the day and you just cannot make the case for BREXIT good. The UK will take best part of 20 yrs to repair damage create new legislation and open trade deals. Most BREXIT voters probably totally simplified the matter and even now think financial loss they are currently experiencing is some blip or short term seasonal movement. Get real Geoff. The future will be very hard for the young and working people within the UK. The vote was never a no cost option. Even I said that.
I remain focused on making the best with the cards dealt and I will not shy away from the new challenges ahead. For those who voted for loss and decline. I have little sympathy.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 6:56 pm

Waz
Why would anyone take any notice of your constant scare tactics and doom and gloom.

That stark facts are beginning to show what is actually happening.....and its not all bad ?

Cameron, Osbourne & Carney were all wrong with their frightening predictions and now we see Cameron has gone, Osbourne got the boot and Carney in the press yesterday says he is considering his future..... all 3 are feeling very embarrassed right now and so they should.

Oh and by the way I for one am no worse off financially as you keep telling me I am !

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 8:40 pm

turtle wrote:Waz
Why would anyone take any notice of your constant scare tactics and doom and gloom.

That stark facts are beginning to show what is actually happening.....and its not all bad ?

Cameron, Osbourne & Carney were all wrong with their frightening predictions and now we see Cameron has gone, Osbourne got the boot and Carney in the press yesterday says he is considering his future..... all 3 are feeling very embarrassed right now and so they should.

Oh and by the way I for one am no worse off financially as you keep telling me I am !

Turtle,
Why you ask?
Listen because the road is clear and facts are plain to see.
Scare tactic for what? There is no real choices of worth left.
The predicted truth is coming home to roost. The paper thin promises of BREXIT have blown away as dust in the wind leaving us with the challenges, financial losses that I and indeed most experts forecast. Surely you can see this.
Glad to hear that your finances have remained unaltered. Must be gold or copper because anything in sterling is definitely down or possibly you have investments from the 2.4tl/£ era. Very self centred if it is indeed the case and the relief will be rather short lived as new money is required.
I fear your current positive position will soon fall away.

I am sorry but the names and statements you refer to will not alter the inevitable new year inflation hit and the associated hike in cost of living. Even in Northern Cyprus you should prepare for the hit and in May expect another.
Of course you need not digest or consider this but if you ignore the signs then it will be the second big mistake, and denial of fact within a year,

All, and particularly Brits abroad should look carefully and appraise how BREXIT will change their lives and prospects as foreigners in foreign lands.
Changes will arise over many years as the UK moves offshore from Europe and the Europeans gain strength and influence on the world stage. The UK, I fear will be excluded and isolated as the " we are too good for Europe" "better off alone" backlash hits where it hurts most. Leave you to guess where our belly is most exposed.

Please leave the "scare tactics and "doom and gloom" slogans in the bin now that BREXIT is decided. Just offer your alternatives, debate and please tell me where the positives are after BREXIT.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Thu 27 Oct 2016 9:55 pm

Waz
You and I will never agree on this I think that is clear.
I see no point in debating this subject any further with you as your "way off the mark" negative view's are not taken by any other credible commentator ...it is pure made up bulls#\t .
There are many sound business people (much smarter than you) that voted remain who are now beginning to feel more comfortable about the future only last week a friend of mine who controls a £30m business is wondering what all the fuss was about and is hiring more staff..so really Waz it's probably time to park this for say 6 months and revisit then.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 7:26 am

Park it for 6 months?

We won't have even left the EU by then!

2.5 years might be nearer the mark...

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 7:59 am

Turtle,
You are very quick indeed to shoot my comments and views down in flames. No real debate with you on the subject.
Your response to my request for any positives after BREXIT remain absent from your posts. Should I really be encouraged by your friend who is apparently rather smarter than me and is clearly wandering around in the dark or indeed short term sunshine. The short term is, as I commented, rosy. The long term is rather more critical and important to our country.
You appear to be reeling from the real impact of BREXIT. Possibly in shock as the real predictions of loss become apparent. Grasping at any morsel of good news to comfort yourself after a damaging and poor decision. Many people in reality, thought and still think that their prospects and livelihood would not be impacted by BREXIT. Their error is now rather clear. The failure to listen to experts , leaders and personalities is certainly the folly of the century.

Keith is correct . Time will tell. My estimate is some 20 yrs before a clear pathway for the UK is in place. In the same 20 yrs Europe will maintain and expand its level of global influence . The UK after its shortsighted decision to stand alone will diminish and suffer as foreign powers and investors become rulers and owners of British infrastructure, industry and assets.
It is the long term future of the UK that many people totally ignored or deemed not important. The cost of membership and immigration as short term issues led to short sighted short term decisions.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 10:15 am

As I said Waz,.. pointless debating with you as you seem to have this incredible insight what will happen 20yrs from now ?
Until March next year when we trigger article 50 and things are a little clearer as to what we are about to try and do a deal on then the rest is pure speculation,.. your analysis of what will happen is not shared by many so really if you wish to preach to people with half full glasses then carry on but for me I would rather wait and see.
You seem to fail to mention that there are major problems in Europe as a whole and even more serious issues with the Euro itself perhaps you could enlighten us all where the Euro will be in say 15yrs or how many more countries will join the EU that will help this huge expansion you talk about.

Keith, in 6 months time we will all have a better understanding on the terms of Brexit and how the talks will shape up you have to agree a lot of hot air on both sides is being blown at the moment so after March next year we should know more of the direction we intend to go

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 3:05 pm

Turtle,
There is no two sides. It is the UK and the UK alone.
Europe has issues yes. The UK has voted to depart the Union and go it alone.
My view is that this is a mistake for the future of the UK.
It is a mistake for the immediate future of the UK , its citizens and our prosperity.
I can see absolutely no positive reason or debate to support the majority decision to leave.
Your wait and see attitude further supports the lack of a plan. the lack of understanding and ignorance as to what BREXIT really means for the future.
The BRREXIT plan or lack thereof is an absolute joke and if you had listened to all the experts who clearly indicated the lack of strategy from that camp then we would have clear and positive prospects that were indeed in place only 6 months ago. Now we just have "wait and see". Wow!! could we bottle that and sell it offshore.
Regarding the growth of Europe.
The EU is a conglomeration of unified countries with clear aspirations for peace, prosperity and harmony. The EU certainly has problems that are indeed shared by the whole world. A clear way forward will emerge with the co operation and focus within the Union. This will, of course, take time but I am absolutely certain the EU will emerge stronger with a clear focus on improvement and unity.
Too many British voters have taken a very shortsighted view to depart to hide from the issues, look inwards with blinkered vision. Now we must start to pay for that folly. I emphasise start as the future as a standalone offers only hardship and struggle. The EU will become a competitor to the UK. A stronger, bigger and more influential competitor.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 3:28 pm

Waz
Do you read peoples posts and then completely misunderstand what is written ...?

I have not mentioned 2 sides at all,... yes we have people with differing views and opinions but I have never mentioned 2 sides.
You also said "I can see absolutely no positive reason or debate to support the majority decision to leave."... so why carry on then ?
I do not have a wait and see attitude as you suggest,... I and many more in fact all of us have no choice but to wait and see until March BECAUSE the government aren't telling us like it or not so please get your facts right.
As for a prosperous EU..... Just take a look at the growing debt mountain in the EU its huge but I suppose that is something else you will disregard ?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 3:40 pm

Turtle
Perhaps you should read your own posts.
Quote:
hot air on both sides is being blown at the moment
in 6 months time we will all have a better understanding on the terms of Brexit and how the talks will shape up

These are indeed your words not mine.

The debate is about the possible break up of the UK. Surely you are aware of the position presented by Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Your view of Europe is very short term and narrow minded. EU issue have been well documented. UK issues are just as threatening. The UK has relinquished an opportunity to lead Europe to better times. Instead it has run away to hide within its own borders in the hope or misconception that it can remain a significant world player. On this subject yes we will need to wait see and hope. It is unfortunate that in 20 yrs the deck of cards dealt to our youngsters, that clearly you have helped formulate, will have no recourse against yourself.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 4:00 pm

Turtle / waz - I'm really not supporting either point of view, because I had absolutely no idea whatsoever whether it was a good idea to vote 'out', and I still don't...

I just think that it is a little early to judge the actual effect, as we haven't actually 'exited yet, and probably won't do so for over 2 years.

I rather doubt that we will have a clear(er) idea of 'terms' in 6 months, as according to Junker, 'There will be no negotiations before Article 50 is tendered' - so in 6 months time, negotiations will barely have started, the 'horse trading in smoke filled rooms' (if they still allow 'em to smoke ) will all still be in the future.

But carry on talking, all of you, it's all food for thought...

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 4:08 pm

I think a desperate splitting of hairs here ?
Ok there are two SIDES to the argument and people with differing views could be described as being on the other SIDE but yes I will agree there should only be one side and in any democratic vote I have ever been involved in the winner usually... well ...wins ?
The debate is not about the break up of the UK,. that is a completely different issue so lets keep them separate.
If my view is "short sighted" then I would guess yours is "unfounded and hysterical" and to be clear the UK has never run away from anything put before it in the past and I'm more than confident it hasn't run from this either so again stop being hysterical.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 4:43 pm

Turtle
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and you have democratic right to vote.
I would gather no solace from being the winner. We are all loosing right now!!
I think it a shame that many just paid little heed to the clear guidance and recommendations from experts, politicians both left and right , trade union leaders and industrialists. Instead they gobbled up the lies and mistruths peddled by the likes of Boris and Nigel who have clearly deserted the camp without any plan leadership or strategy. The UK public has been hoodwinked by these idiots into a condition that is the most threatening event since the last world war. BREXIT is a life changing decision which has been taken far too lightly by many that have been simply ignorant of the real long term consequences. These consequences were clearly illustrated pre BREXITT but most voted for what they anticipated to be a quick fix for immigration, payment of membership fees, a better NHS plus some idiotic notion that the UK will overnight become great again.
The horse has most certainly been led to water and it seems to keep drinking without thinking where the next real meal may come from.
Turtle, please rest assured I remain very calm and collected on the matter. I am however dismayed that the majority that voted and indeed led the UK into BREXIT have faded away or even disappeared and left hard working people and the future generations to deal with current and ensuing mess.
Shame on them.

cambridge · Post by **cambridge** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 5:03 pm

Waz, as a matter of interest are you the Warren Morgan who is chair of the Labour group and Chairperson of Brighton Council?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 5:42 pm

Cambridge
NO not me.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 6:26 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Turtle
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and you have democratic right to vote.
I would gather no solace from being the winner. We are all loosing right now!!
I think it a shame that many just paid little heed to the clear guidance and recommendations from experts, politicians both left and right , trade union leaders and industrialists. Instead they gobbled up the lies and mistruths peddled by the likes of Boris and Nigel who have clearly deserted the camp without any plan leadership or strategy. The UK public has been hoodwinked by these idiots into a condition that is the most threatening event since the last world war. BREXIT is a life changing decision which has been taken far too lightly by many that have been simply ignorant of the real long term consequences. These consequences were clearly illustrated pre BREXITT but most voted for what they anticipated to be a quick fix for immigration, payment of membership fees, a better NHS plus some idiotic notion that the UK will overnight become great again.
The horse has most certainly been led to water and it seems to keep drinking without thinking where the next real meal may come from.
Turtle, please rest assured I remain very calm and collected on the matter. I am however dismayed that the majority that voted and indeed led the UK into BREXIT have faded away or even disappeared and left hard working people and the future generations to deal with current and ensuing mess.
Shame on them.

There you go again with your extraordinary insight as to what people think.... what an amazing human being you are Waz...
I and I suspect most other brexit voters knew exactly what we were voting for (of course it was only leave who told lies ?) You really need to show people with differing opinions a little more respect.
I for one never bought the £350m for the NHS,... lets face it if you gave the NHS £700m extra they would throw it down the black hole with the rest.
We all know the road ahead won't be smooth but neither has the last 40yrs either,.. the EU business model is outdated and needs to change even you admitted that some months ago but the British public have no confidence that any change was forthcoming so the only other choice was to leave, people right across the age groups voted out and your comments about people leaving us in the lurch is pure fantasy,... Farage was never going to get a place in the negotiations but the rest are still there either in government of on the back benches....they have gone nowhere so I ask again stop getting hysterical .
And you are correct they didn't take advice from the so called experts Cameron, Osbourne and Carney and shall I tell you why....because they were wrong and so are you.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 6:47 pm

OK
Turtle
Please do tell me what exactly you voted for and how the plan or even a manifesto that you followed in deciding upon your vote. There was never a plan or manifesto. Did you not realise that!
Certainly my position has always been clear. After 5 years of hard toil, recession and recovery after the 2008 financial collapse. The UK found itself on a sound course and foundation for prosperity and success. This was a mere 6 months ago. The $ was at 1.58 and euro was about 1.35. The economy looked set and well managed. Inflation was under control and stability enabled the UK to be a favoured haven for long term investment. Government was stable and the Uk was indeed on a positive path.
Now what do we have post BREXIT ? Collapse combined with an all out fire sale of just about everything. You , as you indicate have not suffered financial loss. However, did you even look at the likely outcomes for others? Have you even thought about he next 20 yrs. I somehow doubt it.
It may well be time for you to continue comforting yourself that you acted for the majority....the misinformed majority!! and take solace in the fact that you are indeed alright jack. I am sorry but you have assisted in inflicting, in my view, long term damage to the UK and our future prosperity.
That is my view that I too can express.

Maisiemoo · Post by **Maisiemoo** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 8:01 pm

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 8:13 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:OK
Turtle
Please do tell me what exactly you voted for and how the plan or even a manifesto that you followed in deciding upon your vote. There was never a plan or manifesto. Did you not realise that!
Certainly my position has always been clear. After 5 years of hard toil, recession and recovery after the 2008 financial collapse. The UK found itself on a sound course and foundation for prosperity and success. This was a mere 6 months ago. The $ was at 1.58 and euro was about 1.35. The economy looked set and well managed. Inflation was under control and stability enabled the UK to be a favoured haven for long term investment. Government was stable and the Uk was indeed on a positive path.
Now what do we have post BREXIT ? Collapse combined with an all out fire sale of just about everything. You , as you indicate have not suffered financial loss. However, did you even look at the likely outcomes for others? Have you even thought about he next 20 yrs. I somehow doubt it.
It may well be time for you to continue comforting yourself that you acted for the majority....the misinformed majority!! and take solace in the fact that you are indeed alright jack. I am sorry but you have assisted in inflicting, in my view, long term damage to the UK and our future prosperity.
That is my view that I too can express.

So lets have a closer look at your last statement....
Can you tell me how there can be an official plan for brexit when the government of the day.. you know the one you helped get elected were so set against brexit, they didn't even have the sense to think that they may lose ?...So with the Prime Minister effectively trying to shut the brexit campaign down at every opportunity and now that same government scrambling around to try and put a plan together how the hell can you spout about this.
Why didn't Cameron, Osbourne et al just do a little of their job and put things in place just in case they lost, the arrogance of the Remain MP's was frightening... the fact they lost the vote gives them no right to jump ship none whatsoever. Lets not forget they are in a job to serve the British public not their own little idiosyncrasies. Answer me this why didn't Cameron announce he would stand down if he lost ?.

So the UK was on a sound financial footing was it... £1.7trillion in debt, over 300k of immigration per year, NHS hospitals and GP surgeries at breaking point under the strain and Schools full to bursting because of massive influx of kids yeah right what fantastic shape we are in.

Fire sale ?.... we can't have a fire sale.....we already sold it all to the EU countries... We sold all our utility companies, most of our Ports, all our brands have gone Cadbury, HP, Weetabix, JLR, Steel, Cross & Blackwell, Walkers crisps, Typhoo, Thames Water, O2 ever the London Stock Exchange ever our national airline BA is Spanish the list is a mile long and growing.....it might be news to you Waz but we own sod all mate absolutely sod all.

And yes I have considered other people in all this perhaps you should do the same because what I am reading its all about you and your business that may or probably may not be hit with any downturn,.. so really its you that has the moto "I'm alright jack".

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 28 Oct 2016 9:18 pm

OK
Cameron never expected to lose. He promised a referendum as part of his manifesto to secure power. The government never planed to lose and the course was set to remain within the EU. The result shocked everyone and the aftermath was shocking and just no one has any idea on how to proceed. Hence the current collapse of Sterling and the disarray within the UK administration and the threat of actual break up of the UK. Cameron did the right thing to stand down given his cards were so heavily on the REMAIN side of the table. You cannot blame him for that. Yes he certainly has the right to resign. The cause was lost.
It is the BREXIT leaders that need to be shamed as they have simply disappeared under the bed in clear shock and without any sort of manifesto, agenda or plan. Ms May has been thrust into the ring and I fear she is out of her depth presently.

The UK was indeed on a sound footing. The economy , strong and leading Europe out of recession. A strong currency with a respected and stable credit rating. The national debt is too high, yes. BREXIT is certainly not going to effect that position. The other issues, GP surgeries, schools. Oh you are so misled. These issues will NOT be sorted by BREXIT. These are internal government policy issues that still need rational and productive approaches. Have any of these issues been resolved. Absolutely not and your total misunderstanding off BREXIT will illustrate this over coming years.

Your reference to assets sold to EU countries has no bearing upon BREXIT and this is simply global competition. It just reflects the fact that planet earth is ever smaller. Trade, industry and co operations is a global phenomenon that cannot be stopped. The BREXIT camp idea that the UK can exclude itself from the onward march of international progress is simply a path to exclusion and decline.

We own sod all is rather a drastic statement and BREXIT will certainly not provide a solution to your concern. The UK is a global investor too it has a massive presence in other EU countries. It is these businesses that are now under duress as to how things will pan out in future years.

My consideration for the UK and its citizens is very apparent in my posts. The prospects for working people will shortly come under duress as inflation grasps the UK. Jobs and prosperity remain under threat. I feel I have an obligation to many that rely upon my directorship. People from at least 9 different countries. Each and everyone of them committed to and deserving of prosperity, security and fairness. I remain absolutely focussed on the task ahead. I remain dismayed at the damage inflicted upon the UK by people like yourself that have unwittingly and unintentionally voted us into the current and ensuing difficulties.

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