Ending the year on a high...

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 30 Dec 2016 5:22 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/ftse-100-shar ... h-10711892

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Fri 30 Dec 2016 9:31 pm

No reply from all the gloom and doooomers of 'remain camp' ....

Think its up again tonight .... . Yeah roll on Brexit ...

erol · Post by **erol** » Fri 30 Dec 2016 10:46 pm

A victory / high for the ordinary man and woman then over the 'elites' because it is of course the ordinary man and woman, rather than the elites, who holds shares in companies who 's earnings are largely in currencies other than Sterling. That fuel, electricity, apple iPads , marmite and many other things all cost more today as a result is again a victory for the ordinary man and woman over the 'elites', I assume.

And we have not even triggered the start of the process to leave yet.

It is just a fact that whilst the stock market is at a record high, ordinary people, those in the UK and those living here on fixed Sterling incomes, have seen the value of the pounds in their pockets decrease considerably. Yes the Pound to Lira rate is pretty much as it was at the beginning of 2016 but had it not been for the vote to leave the EU then those Sterling incomes would be buying 15% more TL today than they currently do. Not only, as someone who has a modest Sterling income, am I poorer today that I would have been, I am also set to loose the automatic right, to reside and work in 26 other countries. Yep roll on Brexit.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 30 Dec 2016 11:36 pm

Erol
I would suggest that the vast majority of people in the UK have had little or no change in their situation since the vote so stop being silly.
If you wish to go and work in Italy or Poland or even Romania there is nothing stopping you even after Brexit...just apply through the proper channels its not hard.
Just as a side issue have you kept up with the happenings throughout the EU just lately or are you like the vast majority of remoaners who have simply just burried their heads up into a dark place at the moment and refuse to accept what is now happening all over Europe. There are many changes happening now and in 2017 there will many more and that is a direct result of you beloved EU.
It's people with your attitude that has created all this so stop blaming everyone barr yourselves.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 6:20 am

erol wrote:A victory / high for the ordinary man and woman then over the 'elites' because it is of course the ordinary man and woman, rather than the elites, who holds shares in companies who 's earnings are largely in currencies other than Sterling. That fuel, electricity, apple iPads , marmite and many other things all cost more today as a result is again a victory for the ordinary man and woman over the 'elites', I assume.

And we have not even triggered the start of the process to leave yet.

It is just a fact that whilst the stock market is at a record high, ordinary people, those in the UK and those living here on fixed Sterling incomes, have seen the value of the pounds in their pockets decrease considerably. Yes the Pound to Lira rate is pretty much as it was at the beginning of 2016 but had it not been for the vote to leave the EU then those Sterling incomes would be buying 15% more TL today than they currently do. Not only, as someone who has a modest Sterling income, am I poorer today that I would have been, I am also set to loose the automatic right, to reside and work in 26 other countries. Yep roll on Brexit.

You had a choice in the vote and I assume you used it ? if you have that much hatred for the U.K. you have a choice - https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/apply use it and go and live in Brussels it's that simple but stop slagging off the U.K.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 10:23 am

turtle wrote:Erol
I would suggest that the vast majority of people in the UK have had little or no change in their situation since the vote so stop being silly.

You can suggest it, as it your right. That does not make it true however. What is 'silly' I would suggest, is the idea that the value of sterling can drop 15% and such does not affect the majority of people in the UK.

turtle wrote:If you wish to go and work in Italy or Poland or even Romania there is nothing stopping you even after Brexit...just apply through the proper channels its not hard.

If I want to go and live and work in say Leeds, I can go tomorrow, by right. No need for any 'procedure', no 'faceless bureaucrats' will or can asses if there is a local from Leeds who should have the Job instead of me, or judge if I can say 'bath' correctly or any need to prove or pledge my loyalty to the 'Yorkshire Rose' or judge if I have sufficient income or require I go through health checks. I can just up and go by right, with no one having any say over that decision but me. Whilst the UK is still within the EU this is equally true should I wish to live and or work in Rotterdam or Toulouse, or Cologne, or Prague or Lublin or Florence or Riga or Bucharest or Salzburg.

I understand that you wish to make out that not having this right to live and work in such places is 'no loss at all' and maybe for you that is so. However for me it is a very real and material 'loss' to me.

The simple truth is that as far as the 'ledger' goes, for me personally, with regards to Brexit, as of today, in the 'negative' side there is the simple fact that my pounds in my pocket and in my bank account are worth 15% less than they were pre Brexit. In the 'positive' side of the ledger there is so far nothing. I understand you do not want to accept this simple truth but that does not make it any less true. This is nothing to do with 'blame', it is just a sober 'accounting' as to the effects that the vote for Brexit has had on me to date, positive or negative. Sure if I had a portfolio of stocks and shares listed on the London stock exchange I might have something to put on the 'positive' side of the ledger, but I do not. Sure if I were Rupert Murdoch and I could now buy controlling stake in Sky for 15% less than it would have cost me pre the referendum, I would have something to put in the 'positive' side of the ledger, but I am not.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 10:35 am

Munchkin wrote: .... if you have that much hatred for the U.K. you have a choice - https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/apply use it and go and live in Brussels it's that simple but stop slagging off the U.K. [/b]

I do not hate the UK nor am I 'slagging off' the UK. I do think voting to leave the EU was a mistake and has led so far to 'ordinary people' being worse off as a result and I do suspect there is way more pain yet to come for ordinary people. I do think that the 'promises' of 'taking back control', of our boarders or our sovereignty, will prove to be as unsubstantial as the promises written on the side of the vote leave battle bus. You may not realise it but voting 'leave' was not a vote to allow you to tell anyone who disagrees with you to 'leave'.

As a Cypriot and having read your posting history on this forum to date, I could ask why, if you have such clearly expressed contempt for the TRNC and Cypriots and can not stop constantly slagging it off, why you do not simply leave and go back to your glorious England ?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 11:26 am

erol wrote:
Munchkin wrote: .... if you have that much hatred for the U.K. you have a choice - https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/apply use it and go and live in Brussels it's that simple but stop slagging off the U.K. [/b]
I do not hate the UK nor am I 'slagging off' the UK. I do think voting to leave the EU was a mistake and has led so far to 'ordinary people' being worse off as a result and I do suspect there is way more pain yet to come for ordinary people. I do think that the 'promises' of 'taking back control', of our boarders or our sovereignty, will prove to be as unsubstantial as the promises written on the side of the vote leave battle bus. You may not realise it but voting 'leave' was not a vote to allow you to tell anyone who disagrees with you to 'leave'.

As a Cypriot and having read your posting history on this forum to date, I could ask why, if you have such clearly expressed contempt for the TRNC and Cypriots and can not stop constantly slagging it off, why you do not simply leave and go back to your glorious England ?

Your last sentence really applies to yourself Erol,... you have spent months fighting the "remain" corner and all it's so called benefits and you choose to live in a country that is EU free and probably will stay that way for the foreseeable future,... so whats your argument ?
You didn't mention in your ramblings my question of the very serious issues within the EU created by mass immigration and terrorism or is this just accepted as a necessary evil in your ideal world ?

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 11:53 am

turtle wrote:Your last sentence really applies to yourself Erol,... you have spent months fighting the "remain" corner and all it's so called benefits and you choose to live in a country that is EU free and probably will stay that way for the foreseeable future,... so whats your argument ?

My argument and belief is pretty plain and pretty simple. I believe that I personally and British 'ordinary people' in general are today materially worse off as a result of us voting to leave the EU and that is likely to continue to be the case for a considerable period of time. I am yet to see any positive consequence, for ordinary people, of that vote that could be offset against this negative consequence.

turtle wrote:You didn't mention in your ramblings my question of the very serious issues within the EU created by mass immigration and terrorism or is this just accepted as a necessary evil in your ideal world ?

My posts are 'ramblings' and yours are not ? I spent 'months fighting the "remain" corner' and you have not done likewise re the "leave" corner ?

I personally do not believe that the EU is responsible for "mass immigration and terrorism" in any way that the UK itself is not responsible. Nor do I believe that the UK leaving the EU has or will make "mass immigration and terrorism" any less of a problem for the UK than it currently is.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 1:20 pm

The EU is not responsible for mass immigration and terrorism ???????? what planet do you live on ? Have you not seen the terrible situation in Paris or Germany .

Could someone with I.T. know how please post Paris under Seige, on this topic .This was red taped but found its way on to face book. Or some of the hundreds of disgusting videos of lorry drivers being attacked in Calais. Or the riots in Germany. Or the immigrant jungle on Paris streets. all young men.

Or the names and the faces of most of the crime and drug crime , child rape etc.etc. being committed in the U.K.

Full scale Brexit please a.s.,a.p.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 2:22 pm

So the open border come and go as you please policy in the EU is not responsible for mass immigration ?..... I think Holland, France & Germany may have a different view to that in 2017 ?

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 3:24 pm

turtle wrote:So the open border come and go as you please policy in the EU is not responsible for mass immigration ?..... I think Holland, France & Germany may have a different view to that in 2017 ?

The EU does not have an 'open border come and go as you please policy'. The Schengen area countries (some in the EU and some not) have an open INTERNAL borders policy, which is far from the same thing. Just as the USA has an open internal border policy between states within the USA, or the UK does between countries of the UK or regions or counties within the UK. In any case the UK is not and has never been part of the Schengen agreements. It has always maintained it's own border controls and yet has not made us immune to terrorist attacks so I personally consider it naive to think it will do in the future.

So I still fail to see how leaving the EU will make the UK and those living there safer from terrorist attacks.

As to 'mass immigration' yes I can see how leaving the EU will give us more control over who comes to the UK from places like Poland and Romania and Bulgaria and we may well reduce the numbers of people coming to the UK from such places. However I remain extremely sceptical that brexit will lead to a mass reduction in immigration to the UK in terms of total numbers allowed to come and live and work there. Sure brexit supporting politicians will claim that of course brexit will lead to such a radical reduction, but it certainly will not surprise me if those claims end up disappearing in a puff of smoke like the claims plastered on the battle bus did immediately after the vote took place. Time will tell. What does seem clear already is that need for the UK to secure independent bilateral trade deals with other countries outside the EU will also require concessions on immigration policy in regards to those countries, as can be seen in the 'pre negotiations' between the UK and India.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 3:31 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:Could someone with I.T. know how please post Paris under Seige, on this topic

http://www.snopes.com/paris-muslim-siege-false/

woodspeckie · Post by **woodspeckie** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 4:46 pm

Have Whitehall got it wrong? The Brexit vote has helped attract an extra £16.3 billion in foreign investment to Britain. Dept for International Trade has secured a string of deals to boost jobs and growth since the vote to leave EU. The surge of investment proves that Britain is an attractive place to do business. This news came as the FTSE 100 index closed at a new all time high.

desih · Post by **desih** » Sat 31 Dec 2016 10:37 pm

Totally agree with you Erol.

MoBry · Post by **MoBry** » Sun 01 Jan 2017 10:26 am

The tone of comments in this thread is very disappointing. Erol has made reasonable comments which have been treated with disdain and contempt. Quite unnecessary. Those who supported Remain have their reasons and some respect might be more appropriate than the unpleasant comments by those who support Brexit. Erol has shown commendable restraint in choosing to make reasonable comments and not respond in kind to the sneering efforts by some Brexiteers. Let's keep comments respectful, please.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 01 Jan 2017 11:05 am

Mo, you are obviously a big fan of Erol but could i ask you to view posts with both eyes please.
I started this thread with information about the ftse100 finishing the year on a high but Erol as usual jumped in with his neoliberalism views and coments that started the comments you refer to..... we should not take sides and gather a posse...its just general discussion ?

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Sun 01 Jan 2017 1:10 pm

Now, without fear or favour, and in order to upset everyone -
I think it's fair to say that the original post was just a simple link with no pro or anti comment attached. However, IMO the second post was little more than a deliberately provocation to incite argument - and unfortunately Erol took the bait.Thereafter, once again, alternating responses have gradually degenerated into questions of "loyalty", "national identity", and so on.
"Views" are simply views - there is no need to attach emotive and/or derogatory adjectives, and that - along with queries regarding peoples' rationality only go further to demonstrate that on this subject, "discussion" can never take place - only pointless arguments and diatribes.
So - basically - it's done, it's happened, there's no going back - so whichever way you voted at the time, get *$*%*~*#* over it, grow up, and drop it!
(Incidentally, I note the second poster has not contributed anything more to this thread, and examining his posts elsewhere, I begin to wonder whether he should change his username to Loki, or Agent Provocateur....)

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Sun 01 Jan 2017 4:37 pm

That was not the video that I saw and there was no way on gods earth it was fake. (unless it was done by a Major film company with a very high budget,)

When a friend of mine worked for our local newspaper in Wolverhampton in the 1970s she told me they were only allowed at that time to report a certain percentage of immigrant crime. To avoid racial unrest.

Hedge-fund · Post by **Hedge-fund** » Sun 01 Jan 2017 8:27 pm

geroff wrote:No reply from all the gloom and doooomers of 'remain camp' ....

Think its up again tonight .... . Yeah roll on Brexit ...

The level of the FTSE has very little to do with Brexit and a lot to do with the BoE money printing.

Brexit is a side show compared to how Trump performs. He could be a disaster.

PapaBravo · Post by **PapaBravo** » Mon 02 Jan 2017 12:05 am

He could be a disaster.

or he could turn out to be a very good President.

Hedge-fund · Post by **Hedge-fund** » Mon 02 Jan 2017 8:50 pm

I'm focussing purely on the stock markets as that was the op's point. If Trump follows through on his trade threats the dow will drop thousands of points.

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 02 Jan 2017 9:40 pm

Hedge-fund wrote:I'm focussing purely on the stock markets as that was the op's point. If Trump follows through on his trade threats the dow will drop thousands of points.

Seems to me the 'market' right now is pretty certain that neither Trump or May will be delivering on many of the 'pledges' that were part and parcel of getting them in to power in the first place, at least as far as those that affect the 'market' go. Of course the 'market' is not always right and will indeed react swiftly and severely if they are wrong but right now it looks to me like that is what they (the nebulous 'market', or the majority of it) think.

TRNCVaughan · Post by **TRNCVaughan** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 1:16 pm

£ = 4.41tl
Almost back where it was.

AJay · Post by **AJay** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 3:23 pm

Erol re your message 13. I would not take Snopes word as gospel.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... 1825005717

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 3:45 pm

..and I personally would have great curiosity as to why a clearly commercial business site finds it necessary to "debunk" Snopes.....
Could it be that Snopes (just like any of a multitude of watchdogs) happened to highlight some "discrepancy"....?
Are there any other (non-commercial) sites that suggest similar views about Snopes?
Naturally, I imagine that occasionally government and/or political parties would also prefer non-factual stories to proliferate without being "shot down" by Snopes or similar....

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 5:13 pm

TRNCVaughan wrote:£ = 4.41tl
Almost back where it was.

Sterling has dropped about 17% vs the dollar over 2016 - because of brexit. The TL has also dropped about 17% over the course of 2016 as well for entirely different reasons (coup, reaction to coup etc etc). So yes relative to each other they have not change much over the year but relative to most other currencies both are now worth significantly less that they were at the begging of 2016. If the UK had not voted for brexit a pound today would be worth around 5.1 TL.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/29/investi ... cies-2016/

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 5:52 pm

AJay wrote:Erol re your message 13. I would not take Snopes word as gospel.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... 1825005717

Who says I take snopes articles as 'gospel' ? What the snopes article I linked to does is provide evidence and that is what I then apply critical thinking too.

So for example the snopes article claims that a website supernation95 published an article claiming that 'Paris was "under siege" by Muslims, but that the rest of the world was unaware of the violence, thanks to a media blackout'. This claim by snopes can be easily verified. The article is still there and can be seen here http://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/1369

The supernation95 article is real. It's headline to the 'article' is "PARIS UNDER MUSLIM SIEGE - News Blackout as Riots Wreck the city!" and claims (their capitalisation not mine)

"French and western news media are intentionally blacking-out FEROCIOUS RIOTS in Paris, refusing to provide any coverage of violence by savage Muslim beasts in Paris.Hundreds of Parisians have been attacked and seriously injured by roving bands of Islamic Radicals, throwing stones, spears, smashing store and car windows and setting fire to anything they can.Riot police are gassing the wild hordes, to no effect."

In turn snopes claims that the images used in this supernation95 'article' are culled from various different events that were not about 'wild hoards of Muslims laying waste to Paris in May 2016'. So is this claim by snopes true ? Well again you can check the evidence. Take the first picture in the suprnation95 article of the burning police car. You can google image search and you will find for example the following http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france ... KKCN0Y90YU

So no I do not take snopes word as gospel (though it seems perhaps you are taking Dr Mercola's word as Gospel ? If you are I would suggest you try investigating said Dr Mercola). What I am doing is evaluating the evidence provided by snopes and comparing it with the total lack of evidence in the supernation95 'article' and it's seemingly wilful use of misleading images.

At the end of the day there either was or was not a ferocious riot by Islamic Radical savage beats in Paris in May 2016 with hundreds of Parisians attacked and it either was or was not 'covered up by the main stream media.

Based on the evidence I have seen I personally think it is clear no such thing ever happened and thus there was no mass media cover up. I have not seen anything credible that supports the claim that such a thing did indeed happen and have seen compelling evidence that those like supernation95 who are claiming it did happen are simply trying to create false propaganda in support of a far right / neo fascist agenda.

What then do you think Ajay ?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 7:12 pm

Anyway the FTSE100 is up again

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 9:18 pm

Certainly the UK economy remains in a strong and robust position. Much of this is the residual buoyancy enjoyed pre referendum. Many offshore investors have moved in quickly to capitalise upon the weakness of sterling. It is unfortunate that UK intellectual treasure is rapidly becoming foreign owned and UK technology , real estate and business ownership continues to migrate offshore.
The UK is still in the EU . Article 50 has not been submitted. It is carpet bagger season for foreign companies who are taking advantage of the fire sale of uk business, assets and intellectual property as sterling remains weak and depleted in value.

I have said before. It is inflation that will soon emerge to be the gremlin in the cupboard and once article 50 is submitted then the true grit of the fighters will emerge. Its not a done deal in any shape or form.
BREXIT is a very long term issue . It is the modern youngsters and children of those youngsters who must make their way in the NEW, smaller, technology driven world in which borders and populations move with regularity.

This post has been edited by a moderator after having been reported as offensive. Words removed. Please refrain from posting offensive comments

All being said the short term future is important to the BREXIT voter and opposition alike. I am confident of the UK survival but I remain unconvinced that prosperity is any sure fire certainty over the next 10 years as the UK finds its way as a stand alone economy and isolated global contributor.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Tue 03 Jan 2017 10:52 pm

All very well and good Waz but I think you will find that the upcoming votes in the Netherlands, France & Germany will shape the future of the EU.
People still deny that there is massive unrest as to what the EU has become and the bureaucrats refuse to listen or change.

It will be their downfall.... Mark my words.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 10:12 am

turtle wrote:Anyway the FTSE100 is up again

Good news. For those with nice investment portfolios that is. For the average 'person in the street', for the JAMs, however I fear it will do little for them to offset http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... -sterling/

Mowgli597 · Post by **Mowgli597** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 10:20 am

turtle wrote:All very well and good Waz but I think you will find that the upcoming votes in the Netherlands, France & Germany will shape the future of the EU.
People still deny that there is massive unrest as to what the EU has become and the bureaucrats refuse to listen or change.
It will be their downfall.... Mark my words.

Well Austria was supposed to be one of the first to move to the right with a strong anti-European Presidential candidate (Hofer).
But even after two attempts this didn't happen and the pro-European candidate (Van der Bellen) was elected - the second time with a much increased majority.

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 10:41 am

It was probably rigged again. The EU is doomed...........................The UK's EU Ambassador has just resigned, no loss their then...give the job to Nigel.

Johnny Lee · Post by **Johnny Lee** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 12:14 pm

I wish Nigel could run the country. That would would put the Great back into Britain.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 1:55 pm

erol wrote:
turtle wrote:Anyway the FTSE100 is up again
Good news. For those with nice investment portfolios that is. For the average 'person in the street', for the JAMs, however I fear it will do little for them to offset http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... -sterling/

Or even better news for the millions of us with pensions linked to the stock market ?.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 3:56 pm

turtle wrote:All very well and good Waz but I think you will find that the upcoming votes in the Netherlands, France & Germany will shape the future of the EU.
People still deny that there is massive unrest as to what the EU has become and the bureaucrats refuse to listen or change.

It will be their downfall.... Mark my words.

This may well be the case and this is what worries me somewhat. If Europe, USA and Russia, followed closely by China and Korea maintain and develop the increasing insular , self-centred, isolationist format then the world will return to the pre great war status when war mongering was only too easy and arms proliferation was rampant. It is only after 1945 that the world started to realise the futility of war and togetherness provides for security and prosperity.
Now we see a re emergence of right wing factions intent on xenophobic strategies that are intolerant and destructive.

I am afraid the bureaucracy within the EU is the least of the worries as the new political landscape across the globe starts to emerge. This emergence , in my opinion , has in part been fuelled by the poor decision of the UK to leave the security of a Union with its neighbours.

The future looks increasingly uncertain. Not just for the UK but across the globe. The rhetoric is not encouraging and nuclear and armed force proliferation is on most agendas.

jacob · Post by **jacob** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 4:57 pm

Johnny Lee wrote:I wish Nigel could run the country. That would would put the Great back into Britain.

Indeed it would Johnny.

He should have been knighted in the N. Year, I still think he will be this year.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 5:15 pm

Since when has USA, Russia, China & Korea had a policy to work together with other countries ?... They are and always have been countries that have stood by themselves and made a living out of trading with whoever wants to trade with them.
Its only the failing EU that insists on this format and the notion that sabre rattling from the USA & Russia is something new is fanciful.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 6:14 pm

Turtle,
I think a view of the bigger picture would prove beneficial.
Just about all the major world powers are going through significant political change or even turmoil.
The current overwhelming level of intolerance whether religious, political or cultural is taking the world to a new level of self centred imperialistic protectionism.
Wars start when communication and trust fails. The current level of discussion or absence thereof combined with clear and current talk of arms proliferation represents a significant step backwards and onwards to breakdown of trust and communication.

The EU is a player certainly in this global game. Whilst it maintains its UNION status it remains stronger and more secure.
A divided Europe is weak and without security. A united Europe is stronger more secure and at peace.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 6:23 pm

Who bless is Nigel?
Nigel Watkins was a friend from School.
I don't think he is even in government.

Or could it be Nigel Farage. The possible UK ambassador to USA and Donald Trump.
Oh please NO. There is NO vacancy for this man !!

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 7:34 pm

The EU is a player certainly in this global game. Whilst it maintains its UNION status it remains stronger and more secure.
A divided Europe is weak and without security. A united Europe is stronger more secure and at peace.

What a load of tosh....

In 1991 Gulf war where was your beloved EU in that conflict ?
In 2003 Gulf war 2 where was your cherished togetherness of the EU then ?
The Ukraine troubles.....left to the mercy of Russia while the EU stood by and watched.

Just look at the old Yugoslavia.... a group of countries of mixed religion and race tell me that will not happen within the EU if things carry on unchecked ?.

You are living in a world of Walter Mitty.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 7:35 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:Who bless is Nigel?
Nigel Watkins was a friend from School.
I don't think he is even in government.

Or could it be Nigel Farage. The possible UK ambassador to USA and Donald Trump.
Oh please NO. There is NO vacancy for this man !!

Just remind us all again what Farage has got wrong in all his predictions ?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 9:35 pm

Turtle
I don't think its about the mans predictions.
More about his ability.
His ultra right wing and xenophobic attitude and rantings are best filed to the bin.
His failures to carry through BREXIT in the main because he has never had a post BREXIT plan clearly shows his lack of ability.

Your war references need more thought.
The Gulf wars were a terrible consequence of many mistruths, errors and bad calls.
The fact however remains that a consolidated strategy by allies and unions presents a strength that singular activities cannot reproduce.
Certainly the Russian territorial aspirations have not been checked by either Europe or other World powers. That is a failure. However
Europe together with the USA have levied significant sanctions against the aggressor with some results. A signal has been sent. This has only been achieved by a unilateral and cohesive campaign that could not be achieved without the strength of union. A fragmented Europe will certainly return us to the days of 1914 and 1939 when peace and security was very much at the whim of separatist aspirational governments.
The Balkans issue was eventually resolved by joint forces of the European Union and allies. A success. Europe has taken distinct action against the war mongers in war crime prosecutions and convictions. A Success.
The Two biggest and most deadly of world wars; both in the space of a mere 50 years were allowed to reek havoc because, in part, of the absence of any cohesive union of governance, sharing of ideals or respect for neighbours. NATO, EU, and other unions in the more modern era have worked to ensure the same errors cannot happen again.
Unfortunately most recent events , right wing political commentators including your beloved Mr Farage have succeeded in taking Europe and the World backwards and towards those same days of pre World war Europe. The Dangers are there and the separatist path will only lead to strife unrest and possibly war. Is Europe or indeed the world ready for war. It, without doubt, could be the very last war the world can take given the masses of destructive power being amassed by countries that feel threatened by their near or even distant neighbours.

Global tolerance and union is critical, in my view, for the long term succession of the human race. Peace in our time should be a global aspiration . The isolationist and protectionist agenda of many is not concussive to that aspiration but promotes unrest, aggression, and a human behaviour that defies any ability to survive.

MoonageDaydream · Post by **MoonageDaydream** » Wed 04 Jan 2017 9:55 pm

"I wish Nigel could run the country. That would would put the Great back into Britain."

Oh yeah?
Trouble with the British system is you have to be ELECTED to run the country, and your beloved Nigel has failed to do that every time he's stood!

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 05 Jan 2017 7:08 pm

I suspect the Nigel was not on the short list for the Ambassador to the EU,

The loss of Sir Ivan Rogers is indeed a blow but clearly he feels that the lack of a plan, a strategy or even an objective has left him and the UK out in the wilderness amongst the wolves.
The EX envoy to Moscow Sir Tim Barrow has little experience or knowledge of EU internal workings. The task ahead is immense and as his predecessor said departure from the EU could take many years to agree and implement.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Thu 05 Jan 2017 8:59 pm

I suppose his job was a bit of a poison chalice now.
He is a major eurocrat who would not have the heart or the balls to negotiate hard for a Brexit I mean just look at his lame attempts to negotiate with Cameron for a "deal of all deals" which Rodgers advised Cameron to tone down his demands and accept what he is given?....yeah great negotiator.

I have just read a bit about this fella,... did you know he has had virtually NO business experience despite being our main man for.... err.... business !

Priceless

Oh and he had a spell advising Tony Blair....

lavender · Post by **lavender** » Fri 06 Jan 2017 12:10 pm

News headlines today are suggesting ECONOMISTS have been left red-faced after admitting they were wrong in making doom-mongering predictions about the impact of Brexit as Britain ended the year with one of the healthiest economies in the advanced world.
Contrary to predictions, Britain’s economy post-Brexit has been shown to be thriving, with business activity hitting a 17-month high last month.
Britain’s economy grew by 2.2 per cent last year, which is more than six other leading nations including the US, Germany and Japan.

So much for the predictions from those supposedly in the know!

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Fri 06 Jan 2017 4:51 pm

Global tolerance and union is critical, in my view, for the long-term succession of the human race. Peace in our time should be a global aspiration . The isolationist and protectionist agenda of many is not concussive to that aspiration but promotes unrest, aggression, and a human behaviour that defies any ability to survive.[/quote]

Your views in the para above do you credit, Waz, but I think you may be muddling your acronyms.! The EU is not an organisation devoted to achieving word peace.

It is, in fact. the organisation with an "isolationist and protectionist" Agenda and is an exclusive club for the financial advantage of its richer and more developed and powerful member nations and meant to form a large protectionist block to face others and become another USA with the loss of individuality and internal decision making of its members. It also provides a home and income to meet the standard of living to which they want tobe accustomed for discredited and dis-elected politicians for the aforesaid powerful member nations.

This is why some of us supported Brexit so the UK could have control of its own destiny and hopefully arrange it own world wide (not just European) alliances where they would do its citizens most good, financially and in the interests of global cooperation and peace

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 06 Jan 2017 5:07 pm

Well said RR
I couldn't have put it better myself.

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