Article 50, Brexit

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 31 Mar 2017 7:06 pm

Brend wrote:neither are the Brits as stupid as you think we are waz!!

Not sure where you got that idea. There is tremendous skill and talent in the UK.
But
The Europeans are also not as stupid as many BREXITEERS think they are either.

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 10:26 am

Waz, there basically isnt any thing to debate yet is there, pure speculation on your part and mostly negative comments. Project fear, you should work for the BBC ! ... All crap and very bias ..
Mrs May and her gang will negotiate and you and I dont have the details to really comment ....

I'm very pleased as my shares have all doubled, so try speculating on the stock market and leave the Brexit to those who are in the know ....

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 11:04 am

geroff wrote:Waz, there basically isnt any thing to debate yet is there, pure speculation on your part and mostly negative comments. Project fear, you should work for the BBC ! ... All crap and very bias ..
Mrs May and her gang will negotiate and you and I dont have the details to really comment ....

I'm very pleased as my shares have all doubled, so try speculating on the stock market and leave the Brexit to those who are in the know ....

Absolutely correct...

My glass is always half full but others are always half empty....

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 2:31 pm

geroff, turtle,
Full marks for you hopeful attitude.
Brutal reality is emerging even quicker than I estimated.
Whilst I am absolutely on your side in the hope it will all come good.

Brutal fact is its not looking positive.
Put aside the economic damage inflicted on our currency since the referendum.

The signals are that the EU are taking the hard line. Spain is threatening Gibraltar already and a trade deal is on the back foot.

I think it is high time gentlemen that you face up to reality. You have misjudged the EU, its strength and resolve to survive and prosper. At the expense of the UK who have chosen the divorce . All the talk of the EU needs us more than we need them. Put that to bed right now.
The signals are clear. The Union does not intend to take prisoners and will run the negotiations as it sees fit. Not the way that Mrs May wants certainly.

My hope is that after 2 years of negotiating the deal will be put to the British people who will then have the FULL facts of BREXIT to decide how the UK should proceed. It may be too late by then but as Tony Blair indicated yesterday. It would be fair and proper that once full facts are presented the people can decide. Deal or NO deal.

Of course gentlemen. Please do bring forth positives to the discussion that can instil a level of confidence after BREXIT. Your streams of derogatory personal comment provide nothing of use.

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 2:46 pm

Old news Waz, do keep up man, ... All bargaining stalls , ....

My stocks might go up again monday ..

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 4:25 pm

geroff wrote:Old news Waz, do keep up man, ... All bargaining stalls , ....

My stocks might go up again monday ..

Well the news is definitely not from your posts.
So what's is your take please?
possibly...
Who would want Gibraltar or even Scotland anyway I guess??

Please do let us know upon your stocks. If your alright Jack, Then what can possibly be wrong !!

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 5:16 pm

Waz
Is there any point debating the divorce with you in this frame of mind,...you have given the British government no credit whatsoever since June last year and I simply believe that you wish nothing more than them to fail in any negotiating so in the vain attempt to grab yet another vote in 2 years time.
I would wager if we got the deal of a lifetime in 2 years you will still be on here whinging and whining about how the world will end at some point.

And no there should not be another vote after the deal is done that was never in the terms of the Brexit vote so stop trying to move the goalposts at every opportunity.....I am now beginning to wonder if "WAZ" is a board name for Nick Clegg of his silly side kick Tim "not very nice but dim "Farron ?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 6:13 pm

Turtle,
You clearly struggle to deal with debate from other opinions.
Firstly to avoid confusion. May 2016 the UK economic glass was well over half full with strong economy and a desirable currency. Unfortunately many people known as BREXITEERS drilled a hole in the bottom of the glass without understanding how the contents may leak away.
I firmly believe that some people have grossly underestimated the consequences of BREXIT. Some people really think it was simply leave the office, turn the lights off and hand the keys in. How wrong they are?

In the last 48 hours alone. The Union has sent some clear and disturbing signals that some people are clearly ignoring or cannot comprehend.
The UK will not be allowed to drive negotiations including any trade deal. Sovereign territory contested by the Spanish is under political attack before the ink has even dried. My view is that in this divorce the weaker smaller UK will be on the back foot for the duration. The RIGHT deal is under threat already in my view.
Yes I certainly do stand alongside the view of Mr Clegg and Mr Blair who have the guts to suggest that indeed the British Public have voted upon an action in which the RIGHT deal is miles away and no one knows how it will transpire.
Why would it be not fair and proper to ask the Public the Question once the full deal and terms are clear. Deal or NO Deal.

I think your position, may well be , I'll take the deal whatever it is because BREXIT is the ONLY thing that matters to me.

Are you indeed one of the above mentioned people and who will actually say they are too?

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 6:45 pm

Turtle....

Please see my last post on the topic - British expats in Spain count the Costa Brexit – video. Post number 80. You may have already seen.

The posts by Waz24-7 on that thread summed up how they really feel about those who believe the UK would be better outside of the EU. They will often make disparaging comments about those who exercised their vote to leave the EU, suggesting that we were all taken in by propaganda and have no understanding or appreciation of the real issues. Condescending and irritating to say the least. They ignore any counter arguments and often will not respond or justify a posting that they made.

I have decided it is pointless trying to engage with them in sensible debate and discussion.

It's only 3 days since the formal letter was signed signalling the UK's intention to leave the EU, nothing has been decided, finalised, agreed or signed. None of us have a crystal ball to predict the future. The only certainty is that the UK is leaving the EU.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 7:02 pm

PoshinDevon wrote:Turtle....

Please see my last post on the topic - British expats in Spain count the Costa Brexit – video. Post number 80. You may have already seen.

The posts by Waz24-7 on this thread summed up how they really feel about those who believe the UK would be better outside of the EU. You will find that Waz24-7 will often conveniently ignore any counter arguments and not respond or justify a posting that they made.

I have decided it is pointless trying to engage with them in sensible debate and discussion.

It's only 3 days since the formal letter was signed signalling the UK's intention to leave the EU, nothing has been decided, finalised, agreed or signed. None of us have a crystal ball to predict the future. The only certainty is that the UK is leaving the EU.

Posh
Are you suggesting the UK ignores the clear published statement made by the Union after their acceptance of Article 50. Also the clear adverse statement made by Spain over Gibraltar status..
At what point in the next 24 months do you think matters need to be taken rather more seriously. Or like many you are simply hiding from the potential difficulties.
Sensible debate is welcome but personalised "on a band wagon" type posts such as that directed to Turtle are rather meaningless and devoid of content.
Are you also on the "any deal will do me" team. Very dangerous.

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 7:09 pm

Waz you have said it all, you sing from the same hymn sheet as the stupid Cleggie and have the same views as that rotten Blaire! Well, you can go on and on running down our government with your continuous assumptions of what deals are on the cards and in your eyes are all flawed , as Iv said, there is nothing to debate yet, just speculation on your part.. .... maybe you should change your name to 'The Oricle' , ..lol

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 7:17 pm

Posh, I did miss that post and yes you are correct and sums up EU fanatics just as it is.

The next 2 years will be unbearable listening to these people who have blinkered mind set....the last 9 months have been bad enough...

It does make me smile when he picks Clegg & Blair the two biggest failures as his roll models...

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 7:29 pm

The Gibraltar situation has nothing to do with Spain so it should keep its nose out, but again the meddling EU will seek to make it an issue and complicate things even more, typical EU,

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 7:52 pm

sorry double posted

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 7:54 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:The Gibraltar situation has nothing to do with Spain so it should keep its nose out, but again the meddling EU will seek to make it an issue and complicate things even more, typical EU,

Turtle
The Union have every right and I am certain they will take every possible advantage from the divorce. As I have said. The divorce is unlikely to be smooth, and without issues. Many people, as I also indicated. held the view it would be cut and walk.

The complications that you mention and indeed I agree on are precisely what the Uk does NOT want or can afford. It is the UK now that is on the back foot without trade deals, legislation and a multitude of other issues to deal with. Whilst I am certain an outcome will emerge. We must ask ourselves.
What is the goal and how close can we expect to get that goal.

I acknowledge the matter is only 2 days in but like any game of football. The opening minutes can dictate the passage of play.

I am not a Clegg or Blair fan but the case they put makes perfect and proper sense.
I think that the question will be put. Should the British People decide and approve the deal that a government negotiates. If the answer is NO then you must accept the government's decision.
Which do you want?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 8:03 pm

Would some one like to start the above topic in bold??

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 8:30 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:The Gibraltar situation has nothing to do with Spain so it should keep its nose out, but again the meddling EU will seek to make it an issue and complicate things even more, typical EU,

Turtle
The Union have every right and I am certain they will take every possible advantage from the divorce. As I have said. The divorce is unlikely to be smooth, and without issues. Many people, as I also indicated. held the view it would be cut and walk.

The complications that you mention and indeed I agree on are precisely what the Uk does NOT want or can afford. It is the UK now that is on the back foot without trade deals, legislation and a multitude of other issues to deal with. Whilst I am certain an outcome will emerge. We must ask ourselves.
What is the goal and how close can we expect to get that goal.

I acknowledge the matter is only 2 days in but like any game of football. The opening minutes can dictate the passage of play.

I am not a Clegg or Blair fan but the case they put makes perfect and proper sense.
I think that the question will be put. Should the British People decide and approve the deal that a government negotiates. If the answer is NO then you must accept the government's decision.
Which do you want?

You say that the EU has every right,,,what to play dirty ?......lets not have any tantrums then when the UK start "mixing" it a bit ? I think it is only your perverse reasoning that we all think it is going to be easy from here on in ?
The goal is to get the best possible deal just like the one you seek when negotiating a new contract, you don't always get what you want but I'm confident they will talk hard to get it,... it must just be you who is asking for all the red line points of a poss deal but in reality that won't be known til the 11th hour,... but then again reality is something you struggle a bit with !
And if you new anything about football you will know its about 2 halves and many different tactics and a game can be turned with one flash of brilliance,... o and it should be played to the rules ?
We have entrusted the government to negotiate the deal and that is that leave em to it.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 8:37 pm

Should the British People decide and approve the deal that a government negotiates. If the answer is NO then you must accept the government's decision.
Which do you want?

Why should we accept it....you are finding it hard to accept the result of the last vote ?

Dalartokat · Post by **Dalartokat** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 8:39 pm

Talk of damage to the EU from no trade deal has been considered and clearly there is a strategy in place. I believe that involves attracting businesses to move from the UK back into the EU. Lloyds of London have just announced that very move.[/quote]

Waz...your last paragraph regarding Lloyds of London which is owned by China and the announcement they want to open an office in Brussels. You have implied that this is purely due to Article 50 Brexit.

Inga Beale, Chief Executive came up with the idea of opening an office in Brussels due to the cost of Insurance Licences to be applied for. It's a way of financially diverting money. Makes sense. Lots of businesses have other offices abroad and HSBC and the like have considered also doing this. They are not turning their backs.

It will be known as something like....Lloyds Brussels SE)Societe Europe)....In the original statement it was said that less than100 people will be affected.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 9:16 pm

Dalartokat wrote:Talk of damage to the EU from no trade deal has been considered and clearly there is a strategy in place. I believe that involves attracting businesses to move from the UK back into the EU. Lloyds of London have just announced that very move.

Waz...your last paragraph regarding Lloyds of London which is owned by China and the announcement they want to open an office in Brussels. You have implied that this is purely due to Article 50 Brexit.

Inga Beale, Chief Executive came up with the idea of opening an office in Brussels due to the cost of Insurance Licences to be applied for. It's a way of financially diverting money. Makes sense. Lots of businesses have other offices abroad and HSBC and the like have considered also doing this. They are not turning their backs.

It will be known as something like....Lloyds Brussels SE)Societe Europe)....In the original statement it was said that less than100 people will be affected.[/quote]

Inga Beale, chief executive, said: “It is important that we are able to provide the market and customers with an effective solution that means business can carry on without interruption when the UK leaves the EU

Think the above supports the comment. Lloyds has essentially opened this office as it European base. London cannot be the European base.
Lloyds has underwritten global insurance from London for decades. Any movement of business from London is a loss to the UK.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 9:35 pm

Turtle
The very point of contention.
You and many others have signed up for a deal even though you don't know what it is. Some, I believe, didn't even think there would be a negotiated divorce.
I are clearly happy for Mrs May to secure the best deal and you will accept that regardless. Never, in my knowledge. of UK political history has such a wide scope mandate been awarded to a government . Are we that certain of a good deal. I am NOT.
I am doubtful, though hopeful, that the UK will be able to return to pre brexit prosperity for at least a decade by which time the EU will be strides ahead.

I accept your football analogy. I do hope the flash of brilliance emerges. The opening minutes have not been good for the UK.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 01 Apr 2017 10:01 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 57751.html

Whether Remainer or Brexiteer, it’s simply not rational to claim you have precise knowledge of the outcome of something totally unprecedented – or that Brexit can only be a utopia or dystopia.

As the politicians strike a more emollient tone it’s time for us all to try and find a more grown-up way to talk to each other. The idea your side somehow holds all the virtue cards is every bit as dumb as coin-throwing at a football match.

Let’s cut a deal. We Leave voters promise to stop using the awful pejorative “Remoaners” in recognition that having a view on democracy is not undemocratic. Equally, Remainers must pledge to stop using “Quelle surprise!” every time a news story validates their world view in some small way. It’s not because it’s French; it’s more that they can’t even say “I told you so” without showing off.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 02 Apr 2017 9:29 am

Erol
Your comments are valid.
My view remains that many people have taken the massive BREXIT step without sufficient thought or analysis of facts and risks. It is clear that some are unhappy with that view and comments of the derisory form seen on this forum are not welcome and are out of order.
The matter is certainly not as vague as coin throwing. The pattern of negotiation is important and the UK government has, I believe, underestimated the resolve and focus that the Union has allocated to secure the best deal for the 27.
Personally, within the opening statements from the Union I detect a worrying threat of hard, brutal aggression towards the UK. The Union wants and must show solidarity and will use BREXIT as an opportunity to strengthen, consolidate and lead from the front. I think member countries expect this.
As to considerations towards the UK. I think these are bottom of the pile.
Without doubt. Large UK based European business will be analysing every statement and announcement as they assess both risk and potential damage or advantage.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 02 Apr 2017 10:32 am

Waz
You have a particular skill in the words of Basil Fawlty of "stating the bleeding obvious"... of course the EU want the best from these negotiations as do the UK and yes both sides will fight hard to get what they desire.

Did anyone really think that the break was going to be all roses and fluffy bunnies because I certainly didn't,...it's going to be tough and as you said brutal at times but that is for both sides not just the side of the UK.

As for derisory comments on this forum all I would say is people in glass houses ?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sun 02 Apr 2017 10:52 am

https://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

erol · Post by **erol** » Sun 02 Apr 2017 11:57 am

turtle wrote:https://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

He is entitled to his opinion, complete with all it's hypocrisy and exaggerated rhetoric, as too are those who did not vote to leave the EU.

Telling me that I should now support leaving the EU or if not keep silent because otherwise I am an undemocratic, elitist, arrogant, contemptuous of the 'British public' and think I am superior to those that voted to leave is no different from those who voted to leave being told they did so out of ignorance or racism. He talks of behaving with dignity and respect and I suggest he tries to do so himself.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 02 Apr 2017 7:14 pm

turtle wrote:Waz
You have a particular skill in the words of Basil Fawlty of "stating the bleeding obvious"... of course the EU want the best from these negotiations as do the UK and yes both sides will fight hard to get what they desire.

Did anyone really think that the break was going to be all roses and fluffy bunnies because I certainly didn't,...it's going to be tough and as you said brutal at times but that is for both sides not just the side of the UK.

As for derisory comments on this forum all I would say is people in glass houses ?

Turtle,
Pleased that you are one of the people who gave the matter serious thought and clearly intent on weathering the loss. Is it panning out as you expected? I have not seen any recent post from you that indicates what you expect to, in some detail, be achieved.
I remain absolutely certain that many people took and take the view that it would indeed be be simple, stress free and that the EU would cower and collapse. Even now I hear "they need us more than we need them"
The stage is starting to be set out. My view even in past days is that the EU are intent on a hard line. They want the house, car and indeed the kids in this divorce settlement. As in most divorces. I think there will be no real outright winners.

I do hope you will be OK in your glass house as the weather warms up.

thornaby · Post by **thornaby** » Mon 03 Apr 2017 5:32 pm

In veiw of all this disgusting crap from th EU tyrants, I would give them the two finger salute and walk away. I fail to understand the remoaners who still support this tyranny!

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Mon 03 Apr 2017 8:59 pm

thornaby wrote:In veiw of all this disgusting crap from th EU tyrants, I would give them the two finger salute and walk away. I fail to understand the remoaners who still support this tyranny!

Am I missing something here.
It is the UK that has issued divorce proceedings !! Now your crying that the other side is taking a hard line and wants the house car and the kids!!
Did you really expect a smooth ride through the divorce courts!!

I am disappointed in the news bit it is nothing less than I expected.
What did you expect to happen please?

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 8:48 am

Dont like the divorce analogy, but has no one had a amicable divorce.
If the EU wants to take a hard line then why so much criticism of a paragraph regarding security in the article 50 letter.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 12:22 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:
thornaby wrote:In veiw of all this disgusting crap from th EU tyrants, I would give them the two finger salute and walk away. I fail to understand the remoaners who still support this tyranny!
Am I missing something here.
It is the UK that has issued divorce proceedings !! Now your crying that the other side is taking a hard line and wants the house car and the kids!!
Did you really expect a smooth ride through the divorce courts!!

I am disappointed in the news bit it is nothing less than I expected.
What did you expect to happen please?

Yes you are missing something... unlike an acrimonious divorce - we can leave them and keep our country. There is no way they can make us pay a premium for leaving because the Article 50 provisions do not enshrine any such need to make payment to do so. They can attempt to retrospectively enact such punitive measures if they want to try that on - but I can't see much joy in that.

Who said we are crying? Oh you did...

We are not crying - we are saying - they can play all the hard ball they like but we are leaving and they can choose to keep selling us their products or not... if they won't buy ours then guess what? We never said they need us more than we need them - we said they need our trade (a two-way process) substantively more than we need them because we consume as much EU produce as 6 of the remaining countries.... So they can cut off their noses to spite their faces if they want - but that will only make them unable to wake-up and smell the coffee...

In the end money will out - trade will continue and business will find an accommodation.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 1:29 pm

Groucho wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
thornaby wrote:In veiw of all this disgusting crap from th EU tyrants, I would give them the two finger salute and walk away. I fail to understand the remoaners who still support this tyranny!
Am I missing something here.
It is the UK that has issued divorce proceedings !! Now your crying that the other side is taking a hard line and wants the house car and the kids!!
Did you really expect a smooth ride through the divorce courts!!

I am disappointed in the news bit it is nothing less than I expected.
What did you expect to happen please?
Yes you are missing something... unlike an acrimonious divorce - we can leave them and keep our country. There is no way they can make us pay a premium for leaving because the Article 50 provisions do not enshrine any such need to make payment to do so. They can attempt to retrospectively enact such punitive measures if they want to try that on - but I can't see much joy in that.

Who said we are crying? Oh you did...

We are not crying - we are saying - they can play all the hard ball they like but we are leaving and they can choose to keep selling us their products or not... if they won't buy ours then guess what? We never said they need us more than we need them - we said they need our trade (a two-way process) substantively more than we need them because we consume as much EU produce as 6 of the remaining countries.... So they can cut off their noses to spite their faces if they want - but that will only make them unable to wake-up and smell the coffee...

In the end money will out - trade will continue and business will find an accommodation.

Oh Dear,
So THEM and US....exactly the division and isolationism I have described and been fearful of.

What a sorry way to exist in the modern world in which tolerance and cooperation is a true virtue.
.
Takes us back to the days when British football hooligans gave our country a bad name.

Makes me sad and embarrassed to say I am British.

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 4:15 pm

[/quote]Oh Dear,
So THEM and US....exactly the division and isolationism I have described and been fearful of.

What a sorry way to exist in the modern world in which tolerance and cooperation is a true virtue.
.
Takes us back to the days when British football hooligans gave our country a bad name.

Makes me sad and embarrassed to say I am British.[/quote]

Waz - Are you not by extension then embarrassed to be a European also, not much sign of tolerance and cooperation if as you keep saying we shouldn't be surprised they are taking a hard line.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 4:35 pm

Of course it's them and us, they continue to try the bully boy, who brought Gibraltar to the table, them or us.
As for the remark about football hooligans, well Waz, you really have made yourself look stupid, what in Gods name has that got to do with the UK leaving Europe, absolutely pathetic.
We are leaving Europe, not if or maybe, we are leaving, why not pick yourself up and try to accept that, even look forward to the new opportunities this could bring, if you can't do that then perhaps you should look to moving to your beloved Europe.
I am ashamed of many things in this world but being British is not one of them.

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 4:53 pm

Groucho wrote: In the end money will out - trade will continue and business will find an accommodation.

So was the UK mistaken in joining the EEC back when it was 'just' an 'trading block' agreement ? Was / is there really no benefit to member states of such customs union and common market ? If there really are no benefits why did so many countries think there were, including the UK that spent years trying to secure entry in the first place ?

Why does the EU seem to work for countries like Germany and not for the UK ? It's not like Germany has any extra powers or rights as a member state that the UK did not also have ?

fatouche · Post by **fatouche** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 5:00 pm

I find it quite laughable that so many pro brexiters refer to the other EU member states as bully boys when Britain imposed its rule on half the world and bled it dry.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 6:54 pm

kerry 6138 wrote:

Oh Dear,
So THEM and US....exactly the division and isolationism I have described and been fearful of.

What a sorry way to exist in the modern world in which tolerance and cooperation is a true virtue.
.
Takes us back to the days when British football hooligans gave our country a bad name.

Makes me sad and embarrassed to say I am British.[/quote]

Waz - Are you not by extension then embarrassed to be a European also, not much sign of tolerance and cooperation if as you keep saying we shouldn't be surprised they are taking a hard line.[/quote]

Kerry,
The Union certainly did not want the UK to leave. The British public by a small majority chose to issue divorce papers.
Who is the injured party in this divorce litigation. The UK surely. The Union is pro peace and co operation, tolerance and prosperity.
These founding parameters will see them through in the modern world.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 7:02 pm

elizabeth wrote:Of course it's them and us, they continue to try the bully boy, who brought Gibraltar to the table, them or us.
As for the remark about football hooligans, well Waz, you really have made yourself look stupid, what in Gods name has that got to do with the UK leaving Europe, absolutely pathetic.
We are leaving Europe, not if or maybe, we are leaving, why not pick yourself up and try to accept that, even look forward to the new opportunities this could bring, if you can't do that then perhaps you should look to moving to your beloved Europe.
I am ashamed of many things in this world but being British is not one of them.

Elizabeth
Yes we have voted to leave Europe.
Democracy allows and thrives on opposition and debate upon politics. The government are NOT given an open Mandate to act at will.
The DEAL is not done and I think it very dangerous to give the government free will to sign any deal. The People should decide. DEAL or NO DEAL.
There will certainly be plenty of opposition over coming months as democratic protocol is followed.
I reserve judgment on the DEAL as it transpires.
I do hope that you are not one of the supporters of a totalitarian government that will sign a deal that keeps them in power regardless .

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 8:01 pm

I do hope that you are not one of the supporters of a totalitarian government that will sign a deal that keeps them in power regardless .

The British public will decide who governs the country at the next election not the parties.

And if you think that the EU is progressing in a "modern" Europe then think again...Waz your head is in the sand mate.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 10:04 pm

turtle wrote:
I do hope that you are not one of the supporters of a totalitarian government that will sign a deal that keeps them in power regardless .
The British public will decide who governs the country at the next election not the parties.

And if you think that the EU is progressing in a "modern" Europe then think again...Waz your head is in the sand mate.

Yes of course, a general election will determine the next government.
The case in point is: Is the current Conservative Government granted a mandate to secure a deal with the EU? Should the UK public have the option to accept OR reject the said deal? It will most certainly be debated within parliament. The magnitude of such a decision is just as important as the decision to Leave the EU. A referendum will NOT reverse the decision to leave but will allow people to hold the government accountable.

Turtle, You appear to have a desire to see the EU fail or am I wrong? I believe the EU will consolidate , strengthen and indeed become increasingly influential after Brexit. The resolve to secure a good for Europe deal has already become apparent and there is a clear negative and concerning vibe against the UK. I think several people from recollection have said that BREXIT spells the end of the EU. I believe just the contrary and at the cost of the UK.
This is not useful in international relations in the modern World. The Great Britain that many harp back to has been in decline for the past 100 yrs. Its global greatness has gone. New emerging powers now call the shots. China, Russia, USA, Europe. The UK is fading into a lesser world position with diminishing influence.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 10:23 pm

Sorry Waz but i think the government do have a mandate to do a deal on Brexit in fact 17m + gave them a mandate.

You talk about this secure and progressive EU ??......you have no evidence of this and it is pure speculation on your part...dream on.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 04 Apr 2017 10:38 pm

turtle wrote:Sorry Waz but i think the government do have a mandate to do a deal on Brexit in fact 17m + gave them a mandate.

You talk about this secure and progressive EU ??......you have no evidence of this and it is pure speculation on your part...dream on.

NO the referendum was to remain OR leave the EU.
There is NO mandate for the government to sign a deal on trade, immigration, legislation etc.
Your are clearly confused on this matter.

Why should evidence be required upon the future of the EU. This is my opinion and no evidence is required.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 8:41 am

For those interested in the wider global effect of BREXIT and other recent political changes across the water , in USA and globally.

The Dimbleby lecture on BBC 1 last night was very interesting and reflects very closely my own view on political and other issues effecting the World today.
John O Brennan. Former director of USA CIA. Talks extensively about xenophobia, isolationism , terrorism, immigration. Not just in Europe but across the World.
One mans view based on experiences at the highest political level.

sorry don't have a link but surely on BBC catch up.

Dalartokat · Post by **Dalartokat** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 8:47 am

waz-24-7 wrote:For those interested in the wider global effect of BREXIT and other recent political changes across the water , in USA and globally.

The Dimbleby lecture on BBC 1 last night was very interesting and reflects very closely my own view on political and other issues effecting the World today.
John O Brennan. Former director of USA CIA. Talks extensively about xenophobia, isolationism , terrorism, immigration. Not just in Europe but across the World.
One mans view based on experiences at the highest political level.

sorry don't have a link but surely on BBC catch up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... -o-brennan

Dalartokat · Post by **Dalartokat** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 8:53 am

meanwhile, back in Europe people are being entertained by a drunk...................http://www.express.co.uk/videos/get_vid ... 6667397001

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 10:09 am

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:Sorry Waz but i think the government do have a mandate to do a deal on Brexit in fact 17m + gave them a mandate.

You talk about this secure and progressive EU ??......you have no evidence of this and it is pure speculation on your part...dream on.
NO the referendum was to remain OR leave the EU.
There is NO mandate for the government to sign a deal on trade, immigration, legislation etc.
Your are clearly confused on this matter.

Hmmm.... the above comment makes nil sense. Our government has no mandate to sign trade deals, immigration or legislation? Not convinced about that argument.

Why should evidence be required upon the future of the EU. This is my opinion and no evidence is required.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 1:36 pm

The referendum was in or out - correct, but saying that is not a mandate to deal and sign up to deals is totally (and deliberately) missing the point of executive power invested in a government.

Of course the then government didn't think they'd needed to spell out the necessity of the ensuing bargaining that would naturally follow a leave vote because they thought nobody could be that stupid as to think this was not implicit.

Waz - Your argument is that the vote was for surgery but nobody mentioned sewing the patient up...

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 4:28 pm

Groucho wrote:The referendum was in or out - correct, but saying that is not a mandate to deal and sign up to deals is totally (and deliberately) missing the point of executive power invested in a government.

Of course the then government didn't think they'd needed to spell out the necessity of the ensuing bargaining that would naturally follow a leave vote because they thought nobody could be that stupid as to think this was not implicit.

Waz - Your argument is that the vote was for surgery but nobody mentioned sewing the patient up...

I think Groucho that we will see significant parliamentary discussion of any deal. The opposition parties will seek clarification and will opposes elements of the deal the conservatives secure. It is feasible that in the event that government are unable to satisfy all hoses within the government.
They may be forced to take the matter to the people.

I must assume that you are content to let the conservative government secure a deal that they ONLY see acceptable. Until I see the terms of any deal I am not happy to accept it as I am sure the opposition parties will too.

erol · Post by **erol** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 4:37 pm

Groucho wrote:The referendum was in or out - correct, but saying that is not a mandate to deal and sign up to deals is totally (and deliberately) missing the point of executive power invested in a government.

In my understanding the executive (Government) has the right and power and responsibility to negotiate a deal between the UK and the EU, but the the right and power and responsibility to ratify (accept) such a deal rests with Parliament as a whole, not the executive alone. On the EU side it will be the Commission that negotiates the deal but it will require both the Council and the EU Parliament to ratify any such deal. It was Parliament, not the executive of the day, that ratified (accepted) the various previous 'deals' that took the UK in to the EEC and then the EU in the first place and I believe that it will need to be Parliament that does likewise to take us out.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed 05 Apr 2017 4:38 pm

Waz, as I said before it they secure the deal of the century you wouldn't be happy ?

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