Surely this must be morally wrong

[gary&shirley]

The South are advertising EU Membership (Passport) for people who invest more than 2 million euros on a holiday / second property there, surely this is morally wrong: https://www.investcyprus.eu/?gclid=CPn7 ... GwodV8MHHg

[Ragged Robin]

Not only is it, in my opinion, morally wrong, I very much doubt it is legal. Do the EU know about it? Have all the countries they quote agreed to it?
Surely this is a scam?

[13roman58]

Does Donald Trump know about this!?

[Keithcaley]

To clarify: This is not the ROC Government advertising, it is a private company 'Arton Capital', there are various caveats and requirement to the 'offer', see here

[Mowgli597]

Ahem. Before we all start jumping on the outrage bus:

https://best-citizenships.com/uk-investor-residence.htm

"The minimum investment required is GBP £ 2 million has to be invested atleast for 5 year term in Government bonds, loan or share capital. ILR (UK permanent residency) is issued after 5 years."

"UK citizenship / British passport

Applicants may apply for British citizenship one year after being granted Indefinite Leave to Remain, providing they satisfy strict residential requirements below:"

Ok. The Cyprus offer is fast tracked. But still the same end result.

[geroff]

Where's that waz when you need him .. he would know as he knows every thing

[Hedge-fund]

Applies to a lot of EU countries.

[Ragged Robin]

None the less I think it is morally wrong, and doubtful legally. The fact other European countries do it only strengthen my support for Brexit!

It appears it doesnt matter if you are a criminal, terrorist or serial sex offender or murderer if you have enough money. If you are poor but honest you could well be stateless with no recourse! Ok , I know that is life and human nature, but I still do not have to like it!

[Keithcaley]

...The fact other European countries do it only strengthen my support for Brexit!

If you followed the link that I posted, you would have seen that many other non-EU Countries offer enhanced citizenship programs - Our leaving the EU is irrelevant...

...It appears it doesnt matter if you are a criminal, terrorist or serial sex offender or murderer if you have enough money...

Not so!

Once again, if you had bothered to read the detail before you commented, you would have seen this: -

"What Are the Requirements for Obtaining a Second Passport?

Each country has a different set of requirements that applicants must fulfill for its citizenship by investment program. For example, some programs require medical examinations and proof of good health, while others do not. However, some requirements are common to all such programs:

Have a clean criminal record.
Show the legal source of the investment funds.
Invest in one of the government-approved options, such as real estate, government bonds or a national economic fund.

All requirements must be met in order for citizenship applications to be approved by the host government. See the specific requirements on the individual program pages."

I'm not arguing that these sort of programs are 'Morally Right' (your point about the 'poor but honest' being excluded is indisputable ), but they are clearly legal, which renders your arguements irrelevant.

You are of course, perfectly entitled to express your distaste for such schemes, and I share the feeling, but let's base our debate on facts rather than rhetoric!

[Ragged Robin]

The fact that someone does not have a criminal record does not necessarily mean that he has not committed crimes, just that he/she has not been found out and/or convicted! Especially if they are rich enough to buy themselves out of trouble and pay others to commit crimes for them!

[Keithcaley]

RR - So do we assume that every 'Rich' person is guilty of crimes for which they have not been punished? - This is a specious argument - just as it is to assume that all those who are Poor, are Honest.

I think that you hadn't bothered to read the fine detail before you launched your tirade, and now you're clutching at straws!

[Mowgli597]

None the less I think it is morally wrong, and doubtful legally. The fact other European countries do it only strengthen my support for Brexit!

And please read MY post RR. The UK is doing the same - and Brexit won't change that. In fact it might curtail the market somewhat since a U.K. passport will no longer mean automatic entry to any other EU country

[Ragged Robin]

Yes Mowgli: I don't say Brexit WILL change it - just that the UK now has the chance - which I HOPE it will take, to make its own decisions in matters such as this and I - again HOPE - it will use different criteria in granting citizenship!

Sorry for the caps, but its easier than underlining and it so hot my fingers are slipping on the keys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got you little wooden spoon out again Keith.!?

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

However I neither said nor implied that every rich person was guilty of unpunished crimes - that is just the implication you chose to put on what i said.

I do however believe that many, indeed IMHO most, have achieved their riches through means that at best are questionable and there are plenty of know examples.

What is more important ,however, is that I understood that the EU believed in and supported equal opportunies , and granting ciizenship basically on the basis of wealth (even with alleged safeguards) is hardly equality. Call me a Utopian if you like, but I think there are more imortant criteria to earn citizenship of a civilized country.

And no before you accuse me of something else I have not read the small print of the EU equal ops legislation in detail - or rather not recently and tht was in another country and a different context.

Also of concern is that fact that a private financial company is using this to basically advertise their products.

[Mowgli597]

RR. Sorry but I don't think you've grasped the fact that this has nothing to do with the EU. It's a choice made by individual countries - and the UK has chosen to follow this path entirely of its own volition. Other EU (and non-EU) countries haven't.

[Dalartokat]

I don't understand what the fuss is about. As message 4 has pointed out and if one reads through the link, Arton Capital are Agents to promote Citizenship by Investment. All Cyprus is doing is trying to pull it's socks up by encouraging Investment into the ROC.

"What Do Countries Gain From Citizenship by Investment Programs?

Many countries offer citizenship by investment programs in order to attract much-needed foreign direct investment. Countries can then use these funds to invest in their own projects, such as real estate development, business development and job creation. CBI programs also attract global talent and know-how aimed at boosting the economy.



Investors then get a second passport that helps them to become Global Citizens of all the countries that accept that passport and in turn helping those countries also by investment.

Don't understand where morals or Brexit come into it, Arton Capitol would exist whether in or out of Europe.

No different to paying someone to help you emigate into Australia or New Zealand etc. They do the work for you.

It's what having money does.

[Keithcaley]

Still clutching at straws, I'm afraid...

Of all the points made in post 2: -

1) morally wrong,

2) I very much doubt it is legal.

3) Do the EU know about it?

4) Have all the countries they quote agreed to it?

5) Surely this is a scam?

- We are left with: -

1) Got you little wooden spoon out again Keith.!?

2) "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

3) I do ...believe that ... IMHO most, have achieved their riches through means that at best are questionable...

Not exactly debating Society material, is it?

Please, try to debate the issue in a logical, consistent manner, and refrain from personal insults and jibes.

[Reyntj]

Im know fan of the gcs but theres loads of places that do this . Turkey have just started a similar programme thers loads of other places that offer citizenship requiring certain investments notably canada which i believe you need to invest $500000 in a business . I think people here replying are uneducated on this matter and suggest w quick google research as its looking like a racist attack on singling out gcs probably linked to the anti gc sentiment surrounding certain talks at the moment .

[Mowgli597]

I think people here replying are uneducated on this matter and suggest w quick google research as its looking like a racist attack on singling out gcs probably linked to the anti gc sentiment surrounding certain talks at the moment .

Quite a number of the replies have pointed out that many countries have such schemes, including the UK.

[Ragged Robin]

KC

I object strongly to you repeated stalking of my post and repeated aggressive attitude and encouragement of others to take similar.

In particular I find your comments about debating offensive and totally unjustified as I have myself long wished that there were people on this forum who had experience of debates and knew how to discuss a contentious subject without personally attacking anyone with differing views.

Basically this thread comes down to a person's beliefs and moral stance. Personally I believe that any country (including the UK) selling citizenship is acting immorally. (And despite an inuendo by another poster that includes ALL countries not just the so called Republic of Cyprus . I do not support the Roc but neither do I particularly blame them for doing what other countries do and I do not really understand their relationship with the "independent" financial company. It is the way in which they presented the advertisement . (which I have now seen for myself because it appears frequently on my screen) that brings "scam" to mind.

Another poster has suggested that the practice of selling citizenship is justified beccause the money can be used beneficially. Personally, I do not believe in doing evil that good may result , and I also think that this type of commercialism and greed is one of the reasons the world today is in th state it is. This is my view - obviusly the rest of you have different values, but nonetheless I am entitled to it.

With regard to Brexit . I have personal and professional experiance of a Local Autority being forced to take action against its better judgement and against the interests of its taxpayers -simply because of a regulation devised by someone in Brussels who had no knowledge of or interest in local conditions. It is my belied (which again I am entltled to) that this is a small example of the damage that the EU has done to the UK, and indeed other countries. Without spending too much time going through the thousand of haystack of Eu Regulations that this has happened in the case of buying citizenship. I can just hope , and I emphasise HOPE, that feedom from the EU will enable the UK to make wiser decisions on such subjects in future. I say hope because I have little confidence in any of the warring parties having enough common sence, but that it another i

This is my last word on this thread as I have other and more important things to do that get involved in another witch hunt against me. So theMods can relax! and perhaps others will continue putting their view and ignore my contributions rather than use them to deliberately upset me further

[Keithcaley]

RR,

With the greatest respect - STALKING? - REALLY?

"repeated aggressive attitude" - please show me where...

"encouragement of others to take similar." - again, where?

Without going into the contradictory statements in the rest of your post, I would point out that only YOU have made personally offensive remarks, and that I did make it clear in post 9, that: -

You are of course, perfectly entitled to express your distaste for such schemes, and I share the feeling, but let's base our debate on facts rather than rhetoric!

I find it difficult to avoid the conclusion that you object to any debate on your posts, simply because you view it as criticism.

[jofra]

Unfortunately,
"...Got you little wooden spoon out again Keith.!?"
and
"....as I have myself long wished that there were people on this forum who.....knew how to discuss a contentious subject without personally attacking anyone with differing views...."
seem to somewhat contradict...?
And also unfortunately, opinions - no matter how laudable, ethical and moral (or otherwise!), and how vehemently expressed - cannot alter facts - unless the person(s)/group(s)/countries simply have the might and power to enforce them.
State opinions - and you are free to do so; assert/allege "facts" - and if they are NOT true - court for slander and/or libel.
That is why so many unethical/immoral/amoral actions continue...

[Reyntj]

Fair enough i hadnt read the posts correctly and my post relates only to ragged rob dob

[gary&shirley]

I'm rather sorry that I posted this topic now, I didn't intend it to cause any friction between members, my personal issue (and it is my personal issue) with this is that if you have loads of money which I and I would presume most on this site don't then doors open for you, there are a lot more deserving people who I'm sure would love to move into Europe (and before anyone mentions it I'm not talking about the young men on boats fleeing their war torn country).

[Keithcaley]

I'm rather sorry that I posted this topic now...

I wouldn't worry about it - at least the issues have been well thrashed out!

It is simply a fact of life, that if you are Rich and Powerful, then you can buy whatever you want - I don't think that a Passport is any different in this respect from large houses, fast cars, Diamonds, private islands, or anything else. And the fact that most Governments around the World seem to be amenable to a cash injection (possibly in a brown envelope) doesn't make it any less distasteful, to my mind.

We could all wish that it was not so, but to pretend that the facts are otherwise is to ignore Human Nature and Reality - perhaps that 'Nice Mr. Corbyn' would be inclined to do something about it, if he got elected...

Don't all write at once!!

[erol]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ome-office

[elizabeth]

It sounds a bit like the granting of citizenship to Gary Robb by the TRNC government, now he turned out to be a decent and upstanding citizen didn't he.

[Keithcaley]

A liitle more on the subject, from the South's Cyprus Mail...

[artic monkey]

Why don`t you all just delve into your family history,hopefully find yourself a long lost Irish relative that qualifies you,and apply for an Irish (still EU member) passport.No investment required,no medical checks,just a tenuous Irish connection from way back.