Oh why can't the English.................

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Mon 15 Jan 2018 8:49 pm

OH Why can't the English teach their children how to speak.....................quote from George Bernard Shaw

I have addressed this topic before, but I would like to make it clear that I never intend to criticise any individual. As an ESOL teacher, I know very well that public criticism of an error can lead to lack of confidence and as well as being unkind is counter-productive as it simply results in more errors being made. Even a tough experienced old cow like me can get flustered if someone is always looking over their shoulder pointing out every minor typos and make even more mistakes as a result. I try to sit on my hands and only comment if an error leads to misunderstanding, or is obviously very funny and I think the writer will see the joke.

I actually blame the decline in standards of the British Education System and the effect of IT. Spell checks are not infallible , still less predictive script and can actually lead to errors. I find my spelling has in fact got worse since I used a spell check - I simply get lazy about it. Other factors can be tiredness, if one's only chance to post is late at night, arthritic fingers, particularly if affected by extreme heat or cold, and poor eyesight or lighting. In this respect, I do wish that it were possible to increase the type size when writing and reading posts as one can for email.

I would also like to point out, in view of several recent comments, that I DO check my posts before sending them and correct any grammatical mistakes, or errors of fact but like many others,.], perhaps through a sense of priority, I tend to miss minor typographic slips

I

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Mon 15 Jan 2018 11:10 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:......In this respect, I do wish that it were possible to increase the type size when writing and reading posts as one can for email......

It is possible - press and hold the Ctrl key and either press the + (plus sign) button or press/hold the Ctrl key and use the scroll wheel on your mouse (if it has one). To reduce the size, use the - (minus sign) key or turn the mouse wheel the opposite direction.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 6:10 am

Oh why can't a Woman...

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 6:36 am

Produce your input in MS Word - any size you wish - check it then cut and paste into the reply box, simple. Cut and paste the comment you wish to read into MS Word - make it as big as you like - 72 Point if you wish to be frightened by the size of the letters! Check it and then check it again, remember to read "Every" word as the eye happily skips along and the brain inserts missing words for you. Takes time but what else have we got?

sammydavis · Post by **sammydavis** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 9:06 am

I hope folks also check that the dictionary their computer/laptop is using is English - not American english!

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 9:48 am

Wot ya meen , is, sum Kant spel sum aint got no gramer and sum jest dont now cos sum dont kare .... Is this what you mean? ...

If you actually listen to the BBC morning programmes you have the ones reporting who cant speak properly , Stef being one of the worst reporters on the box ! She drops her H's and speaks in a gutterale tone , horrible ....
Some of the actual teachers in infant schools dont talk correctly so how does a child know any different!
Once we all had to say our vowels out loud, but now you mustn't tell a child he isnt speaking correctly as he/she runs home to mummy and complains, then mummy says he is being bullied , .....

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 10:22 am

Geroff, thank goodness someone agrees with me regarding standard of English being spoken by those sitting on the "sofa" and reporting. This morning there was a woman reporting from a station somewhere in the UK, and I resorted to shouting at the screen. Her spoken English was downright abysmal and her Employers, the BBC, would not be employing her if they considered it substandard. Or would they? I'm not suggesting that everyone reverts back to the 40's and 50's where "BBC English" was the norm, but these days its becoming cringe making. Strangely it seems to be worse on TV than on the radio. Maybe you just have to look young and glamorous to get on TV?

Maisiemoo · Post by **Maisiemoo** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 11:08 am

One thing that really makes me cringe is when a reporter utters the word 'Yeah', normally elongating it.
I have also seen spelling mistakes on both BBC and Sky and wonder who is checking before it is put up on screen.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 11:10 am

OH Why can't the English teach their children how to speak.....................quote from George Bernard Shaw

OH Why can't the English teach their children how to interpret.... The quote refers to the way English is badly spoken and not written. So don't fall into the trap of confusing the written word with poor speech habits.

geroff · Post by **geroff** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 12:32 pm

Groucho , think speach and spelling go hand in hand does it not? .... if you pronounce a word as how that Steff on BBC does, your spelling would be awful ,.... Another is Matt Baker, he drops his H's and his T's its very difficult to listen to half the reporters .... ...

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 1:09 pm

geroff wrote:Groucho , think speach and spelling go hand in hand does it not? .... if you pronounce a word as how that Steff on BBC does, your spelling would be awful ,.... Another is Matt Baker, he drops his H's and his T's its very difficult to listen to half the reporters .... ...

Oh dear...

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 2:44 pm

sammydavis wrote:I hope folks also check that the dictionary their computer/laptop is using is English - not American English!

I do so agree sd. I have my settings for English (UK) but I seem to have acquired a Spell Check called "Grammarly" (that name itself is an abomination) which not only gives American spelling, but keeps trying to get me to use it for grammar as well which I neither need nor want - to make it worse it places adverts (I suspect deliberately) over the scroll control. How do I get rid of this, and what and how do I install a British English spell check, please?

Hedge-fund · Post by **Hedge-fund** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 7:02 pm

Talking of the BBC..................they've recently opened a "pidgin" English service which is rather amusing

https://www.bbc.com/pidgin

Also I bumped into Stef at a recent football match where she told me her team (Middlesbrough) had played f*****g s**t..................charming.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 10:10 pm

The trouble with that, hedge-fund, is that I have a nasty feeling that that is exactly how I sound when people look puzzled at my attempts to speak Turkish

Hedge-fund · Post by **Hedge-fund** » Tue 16 Jan 2018 11:08 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:The trouble with that, hedge-fund, is that I have a nasty feeling that that is exactly how I sound when people look puzzled at my attempts to speak Turkish

Snap

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 11:11 am

There is a headline on the BBC News Website which says "Save the Children attacked in Afghanistan". At first I read this as "save the children who are being/have been attacked ". Then I realised that it was the Charity of that name that had been attacked. This would have been cleaner if either he word s" The Charity had been put in front and/or "Save the Children" had been put in inverted commas.

The BBC used to be the guideline for correct English, spoken and written. If they are now so ignorant they cannot even write an unambiguous headline, what hope is there for the language and communication - back to the Tower of Babel.

Cally · Post by **Cally** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 12:37 pm

It would be "clearer" also.......

Imo if you are going to criticise, you need to be squeaky clean, I always read through my posts/comments, just saying

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 3:06 pm

I must be posting here too much, or my spell check is playing up! I never used to confuse "their" and "there " - in fact it is one of my main criticisms.. We have been through the reading posts before, there seems to a mental block about picking up one's own error, and not everyone has time(or ability) to mess about drafting elsewhere and cutting and pasting. And bear in mind the above was posted during an electricity breakdown and, not to seek excuse, but my fingers were stiff with cold. I don't understand what you mean by "clearer" though.

I pointed out before I only bring to notice major errors , not seek to point out individual's minor slips, unlike some people who enjoy "getting at " others

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 3:51 pm

'cleaner' in your original post = 'clearer', as pointed out. I guess the point being made was, if you criticise other's posts, expect flak in return.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 3:52 pm

Topics like this make me so angry, it is so patronising and condescending. The majority of parents do teach their children to speak properly but there are of course regional accents to be taken into account which naturally will affect the way youngsters speak.
We have friends from Liverpool, extremely intelligent and highly educated people, who speak with a strong Liverpudlian accent, for goodness sake, so long that we can understand what is being said what is the problem.
This forum is becoming far too serious or people have nothing better to do than try to show their superiority.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 3:58 pm

elizabeth, chill! Opinions are like bottoms, everybody has one and can/must use it.

Hedge-fund · Post by **Hedge-fund** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 4:20 pm

tomsteel wrote:elizabeth, chill! Opinions are like bottoms, everybody has one and can/must use it.

...........yes but not to talk out of.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 5:19 pm

tomsteel wrote:'cleaner' in your original post = 'clearer', as pointed out. I guess the point being made was, if you criticise other's posts, expect flak in return.

OH my goodness, how petty How often do I have to explain that I am NOT talking about minor errors, nor getting at any one individual.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 5:32 pm

elizabeth wrote:Topics like this make me so angry, it is so patronising and condescending. The majority of parents do teach their children to speak properly but there are of course regional accents to be taken into account which naturally will affect the way youngsters speak.
We have friends from Liverpool, extremely intelligent and highly educated people, who speak with a strong Liverpudlian accent, for goodness sake, so long that we can understand what is being said what is the problem.
This forum is becoming far too serious or people have nothing better to do than try to show their superiority.

Posts like me make me so angry and depressed. Perhaps I should have said learn to READ! I never once mentioned regional accents (in fact I have one myself)...and, although I regret the misuse of a beautiful language, I only actually complain when the wording makes it ambiguous. In fact I only referred to written English - it was others who , quite rightly, pointed out that they do usually affect each other.

AS for getting too serious, we all have our preferences and there is room for all. Personally I would like to see more serious discussions (NOT witch hunts like this), and it becoming less like Exchange and Mart.

As is so often said, Elizabeth, if you don't like a post or its subject you have the option of not reading it!!!!!! Or you do enjoy attacking people who have different views from yours? No THAT is patronising.

WotNoDeeds · Post by **WotNoDeeds** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 6:43 pm

On a lighter note, a previous poster mentioned Steph McGovern. This brought to mind her hilarious response to people who congratulated her on being pregnant when she was wasn't.

She said

"I am not with child, I am with pot belly'

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 9:01 pm

What is rather funny, in a horrible kind of way, is that people picked on a mistype of n for r : only one stroke different. But apparently no-one noticed that I misplaced an inverted comma (again a typing rather than grammatical error) and much more important the horrible clanger -of which I am truly ashamed - of using "their" when I meant "there". i did not mean to do it that way, but I think my point is made.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 9:06 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:
elizabeth wrote:Topics like this make me so angry, it is so patronising and condescending. The majority of parents do teach their children to speak properly but there are of course regional accents to be taken into account which naturally will affect the way youngsters speak.
We have friends from Liverpool, extremely intelligent and highly educated people, who speak with a strong Liverpudlian accent, for goodness sake, so long that we can understand what is being said what is the problem.
This forum is becoming far too serious or people have nothing better to do than try to show their superiority.
Posts like me make me so angry and depressed. Perhaps I should have said learn to READ! I never once mentioned regional accents (in fact I have one myself)...and, although I regret the misuse of a beautiful language, I only actually complain when the wording makes it ambiguous. In fact I only referred to written English - it was others who , quite rightly, pointed out that they do usually affect each other.

AS for getting too serious, we all have our preferences and there is room for all. Personally I would like to see more serious discussions (NOT witch hunts like this), and it becoming less like Exchange and Mart.

As is so often said, Elizabeth, if you don't like a post or its subject you have the option of not reading it!!!!!! Or you do enjoy attacking people who have different views from yours? No THAT is patronising.

Your post began, "" oh why can't the English teach their children to speak" not read, but speak!!!!
I will read which posts I like on whichever subject I like, having a different opinion on something is neither attacking a person nor is it a witch hunt, a phrase you seem to use quite often.
If you don't want a response to your posts then perhaps you should refrain from posting,

mrsgee · Post by **mrsgee** » Wed 24 Jan 2018 9:56 pm

Well I dow think any of yow lot spake proper any road up... lighten up fer God's sake.....I cum frum the Black Country and praaad uv it....an if yow dow like the way I spake, tuff......

On the other hand, I can of course use proper grammar, punctuation, and on occasion, Queen's English (note the use of the apostrophe and capital letters where necessary) if I wish.....

It's actually quite nice I do believe to retain your accent and therefore your roots....

But, yes, have to admit....inability to spell and equally the inability to do basic a calculations without the use of a calculator does annoy me a tad..... ooo, is that a word I am allowed to use? Must check if it is in the Oxford English Dictionary...... lol

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 8:35 am

Referring back to the BBC, does anyone else have the problem I have with a young lady who seems to have become their Chief Economic Reporter (or something similar) Her Irish accent is so strong that initially I was absolutely convinced she was speaking in a completely foreign language. Now of course I realize my mistake, but still have to ask my husband "what did she say" ....his reply "haven't a clue, don't as me"

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:13 am

Calling me "patronising and condescending" and suggesting I am speaking out of my "backside" is your idea of respecting other's opinions is it, Elizabeth??

I am not the only one who criticizes the BBC, even on this thread - if you are national broadcaster and fail to promote your national language you must expect complaints.

As for witch hunts, you always attack my posts, obviously you have something personal against me, what is it?

I made it clear that "Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?" was a quotation, - actually I put it in to lighten the topic a bit, but as someone else said, if you don't speak properly there is no hope of your writing correctly and vice versa. A frequent example which occurs frequently on this board is "draw" for "drawer".

You are perfectly entitled to read my posts and disagree with what I am saying, but please do it with respect for me and my right to my own opinions.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:22 am

mrsgee wrote:Well I dow think any of yow lot spake proper any road up... lighten up fer God's sake.....I cum frum the Black Country and praaad uv it....an if yow dow like the way I spake, tuff......

On the other hand, I can of course use proper grammar, punctuation, and on occasion, Queen's English (note the use of the apostrophe and capital letters where necessary) if I wish.....

It's actually quite nice I do believe to retain your accent and therefore your roots....

But, yes, have to admit....inability to spell and equally the inability to do basic a calculations without the use of a calculator does annoy me a tad..... ooo, is that a word I am allowed to use? Must check if it is in the Oxford English Dictionary...... lol

I agree entirely mrsgee, and I think we should preserve local dialects and am rather sorry I have lost most of mine, except for the occasional vowel sound. But we need to differentiate between dialect and accent - the latter usually being a lazy way of speaking, and even more slang and obscentity. I have a very dear friend in England who was a lovely man, but who spoiled himself because the only adjective he knew was "b.....".
It actually became tedious.

However above all, in this global society , it is important for us to communicate and to set an example to those who are trying to learn what is, after all, the llingua franca of the modern worlds

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:34 am

Ragged Robin wrote:...suggesting I am speaking out of my "backside" is your idea of respecting other's opinions is it, Elizabeth??...

But she didn't, did she RR?

Not the first time that you've done that

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:54 am

Well spotted KC!

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 12:12 pm

Keithcaley wrote:
Ragged Robin wrote:...suggesting I am speaking out of my "backside" is your idea of respecting other's opinions is it, Elizabeth??...
But she didn't, did she RR?

Not the first time that you've done that

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 2:59 pm

See posts 20,, 21 and 22.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 3:25 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:See posts 20,, 21 and 22.

RR, I have faithfully followed your instructions, and looked at posts 20,21 and 22

Elizabeth does not mention bottom or backside or anything related.

She disagrees with you - yes.

She thinks that you are blind to the fact that you criticize the views of others who don't agree with you, and yet take any criticism of your own opinions as a 'Personal attack' - yes.

Does she accuse you of talking out of your backside? - NO!

I think that you should apologise.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 3:56 pm

The implication was only too obvious and you have ignored her other insults It is you and she who should feel guilty for bullying and apologise. On most forums this would not be allowed.

Show me where I have criticised the views of others (other than the BBC and British Education system and in one case myself). I take great care not to do so,..I suspect the the problem is that some have taken generalities personally because the cap fits too tightly.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 4:55 pm

Ragged Robin wrote:The implication was only too obvious and you have ignored her other insults It is you and she who should feel guilty for bullying and apologise. On most forums this would not be allowed.

Show me where I have criticised the views of others (other than the BBC and British Education system and in one case myself). I take great care not to do so,..I suspect the the problem is that some have taken generalities personally because the cap fits too tightly.

RR, I have never said that you criticise the views of others, therefore I am at a loss as to why you should think that it is my responsibility to 'show you where'... - if indeed your quoted post (above) was directed at me, you didn't actually say...

I have looked at what Elizabeth wrote, and what she most certainly didn't write was anything accusing you of writing out of your backside, and I have said that, in my opinion, you owe her an apology for stating that she did say that.

If you think that that is 'bullying', so be it.

Personally, I think that accusing someone of something that they have not done is bullying.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 4:59 pm

Oh well Keith, looks like you and me in the doghouse, not too sure why, and no idea where I mentioned/ implied backside, but at least we'll be out of this awful rain.
But be warned, if you become delusional or paranoid then you can find your own doghouse, you're not sharing mine.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 5:05 pm

elizabeth wrote:..you can find your own doghouse, you're not sharing mine.

Heaven forfend! - People would talk!

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 8:22 pm

I prefer to share the Dog House with dogs.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 8:28 pm

Keith and Elizabeth (and anyone else who has had the patience to continue reading this thread). Please be kind enough to read my first post. I do not see why I should keep repeating it.

Moderators: Yet again a post I have started has been attacked and the attention drawn away from the point I was trying to make. Would you kindly close it, as it obviously will no tbe allowed to serve any useful purpose.

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 9:56 pm

...And relating to part of the first post ("... In this respect, I do wish that it were possible to increase the type size when writing and reading posts as one can for email."), were the second and fourth posts perhaps of some assistance....?

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:07 pm

Thanks Joffra, I had already tried the drafting elsewhere and copying and pasting but for various reasons did not find it very satisfactory. I will try the other, but with your agreement I will copy your relevant post for a new thread . Whilst dreading giving the chance for another argument I must say that I cant understand why the "normal" button here cannot be changed and why in any case normal is so small. It is so much easier to set a suitable type size elsewhere. But as I say, I will start a new thread .

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:20 pm

RR, one final time...

Do you acknowledge that you unjustly accused Elizabeth of saying that you were 'talking out of your backside'?

Are you going to apologise?

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Thu 25 Jan 2018 10:26 pm

It will be a sad day for this forum if posts are closed because someone can't accept that other people have the right to express an opinion different to their own.
There seems little point in claiming to want to stimulate debate on the forum yet if anyone has a different point of view this is taken as a personal attack.
I await with interest the decision of the moderators on this point.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Fri 26 Jan 2018 1:31 am

This topic will for now remain open.

Part of debating a topic is that there will be various points of view and just because that point of view differs between members does not mean that it is a personal attack.

There is no doubt that some members would like there personal views on a subject to be accepted by others but that will never be the case.

Please read the forum rules and consider whether your post is acceptable. If in retrospect you may have posted something in haste which you regret you can edit the post or even request a moderator t remove it. If you feel an apology may be in order you can of course post on the board or pm the other party.

Mowgli597 · Post by **Mowgli597** » Fri 26 Jan 2018 2:39 pm

PoshinDevon wrote:..... some members would like there personal views ........

INCOMING

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Fri 26 Jan 2018 3:17 pm

I am due an apology. Do you ever wonder why some of the best posters with more interesting views have left this forum and it has become so dull with mainly buying and selling??

In any case everything that can be said (and by Elizabeth and Keith some things that should not) have already been said and it should not be allowed to become an opportunity to attack me

Yes Mowgli well spotted. Apparently I can be attacked if I make a minor typo but Moderators can make serious grammatic errors. Once again my point is proved.

Ragged Robin · Post by **Ragged Robin** » Fri 26 Jan 2018 3:41 pm

https://www.wikihow.com/Use-There,-Their-and-They%27re

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