what will likely happen come March 2019 at the crossing?

[waz-24-7]

Waz Sorry i can't keep up with your contradictions ?...first you say we are not the powehouse we were 40 yrs ago but we have been under the heavy influence of the EU all that time.....are you saying it's the EU that has eroded our strength ?

Turtle,
Not quite on topic. However,
The EU has certainly not eroded the position of the UK. The UK has always had its own economic position providing financial, services and manufactured products. Europe as a whole is a world player and a very important Market place for the major economies such as the BRIC group of econmies. The UK has held a strong position within the Union.

It is the ever changing face of the world. A global realignment of economic power based on resource availability has led to the decline of the UK as an economic powerhouse.

[waz-24-7]

The future after 2019 remains uncertain.
However the wait and see notion is rather "stich your head in the sand"
It is quite clear to me based on what we see for other aliens entering Cyprus. ( visa application, delays, etc)

Now if a Cyprus solution was forthcoming and the ROC became unified then certainly UK citizens would be far less likely to be hindered . There were would be no border issues and passage into Cyprus would be relatively easy.

A settlement is, in my view, very unlikely. Therefore the antagonistic stance of South Cyprus indicates to me that every opportunity to hinder the TRNC and its supporters goes without saying.
The UK citizen without the protections and rights of EU membership simply and plainly becomes vulnerable to vindictive attack.

[tomsteel]

Non residents in the UK have to pay for NHS health care.

[Ragged Robin]

Not if they return permanently, though believe there is a delay and no doubt aggro, before getting back into the system.

[erol]

I will try and be both on topic and stick to known facts (to the best of my knowledge and understanding) and do my best to avoid speculation or 'fear mongering'

The Green line regulations are a legally binding agreement between the EU and the RoC and the RoC can not unilateral amend or ignore this agreement without being in direct legal and political conflict with the EU for doing so.

These agreements define who is allowed to pass across the Green Line. The agreement covers BOTH EU nationals AND third party nationals. Many believe it only covers EU nationals but they are wrong in thinking this.

As far as Third party (non EU) nationals go, any third party national that does not require a visa in order to enter the RoC itself is able to cross with a valid passport. Any third party national that does require a visa to enter the RoC itself can cross with a valid passport if they have such a visa and not if they do not.

Until the RoC joins the Schengen Area, which they are committed to do at some undefined point in the future as part of their joining the EU, they can unilaterally decide which third country nationals do require a visa to enter the RoC and which do not and what the conditions and mechanisms are for obtaining such.

What this means in effect is that other than choosing which third country nationals require a visa to enter the RoC and the mechanisms and conditions for granting such the RoC has no (unilateral legal) control over who can or can not cross the Green line.

Or to put it another way for a third country national that does not require a visa to enter the RoC itself (or does require such and has it), they can not legally stop such persons from crossing the green line.

What they can and in a few instances in the recent past have done however, is refuse entry to the RoC itself to third country nationals, even though they do not require a visa for entry in to the RoC, or do and have such a valid visa, if they believe that the person will subsequently then cross the green line. They can not do this for EU nationals (because of the general principal of free movement of EU nationals in all EU member states) but they can and have done it for non EU nationals, all be it a tiny tiny % of the total of such nationals that have arrived at RoC airports seeking entry into the RoC.

Or to put it yet another way, the RoC has more (unilateral) control over which third country nationals it allows in to the RoC itself at airports like Larnaca than it does over which third country nationals it allows (has to allow as per the Green Line regulation) to cross the Green Line once they are IN Cyprus (north or south). It seems madness but the reality is they can not (legaly) stop an Israleli citizen (or any other third party national that does not need a visa to enter the RoC or does and has such) that is in Cyprus from crossing the Green line but they CAN (and have) stopped such from entering the RoC at all via Larnaca and other 'legal points of entry' on the basis they they might once having entered the RoC then cross the Green line.

When the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens will move from a category of nationals that can not (legally) be stopped from entering the RoC , to nationals that potentially could be refused entry to the RoC itself. They will go from a zero risk of turning up at Larnaca and being refused entry to the RoC and sent back from whence they came to some unknown degree of risk that is, to date, extremely low but is greater than zero.

[tomsteel]

Not if they return permanently, though believe there is a delay and no doubt aggro, before getting back into the system.

If they return permanently, they become residents - ergo entitled to NHS care. It is UK citizens who are non residents of the UK who are not.

[PoshinDevon]

I will try and be both on topic and stick to known facts (to the best of my knowledge and understanding) and do my best to avoid speculation or 'fear mongering'

The Green line regulations are a legally binding agreement between the EU and the RoC and the RoC can not unilateral amend or ignore this agreement without being in direct legal and political conflict with the EU for doing so.

These agreements define who is allowed to pass across the Green Line. The agreement covers BOTH EU nationals AND third party nationals. Many believe it only covers EU nationals but they are wrong in thinking this.

As far as Third party (non EU) nationals go, any third party national that does not require a visa in order to enter the RoC itself is able to cross with a valid passport. Any third party national that does require a visa to enter the RoC itself can cross with a valid passport if they have such a visa and not if they do not.

Until the RoC joins the Schengen Area, which they are committed to do at some undefined point in the future as part of their joining the EU, they can unilaterally decide which third country nationals do require a visa to enter the RoC and which do not and what the conditions and mechanisms are for obtaining such.

What this means in effect is that other than choosing which third country nationals require a visa to enter the RoC and the mechanisms and conditions for granting such the RoC has no (unilateral legal) control over who can or can not cross the Green line.

Or to put it another way for a third country national that does not require a visa to enter the RoC itself (or does require such and has it), they can not legally stop such persons from crossing the green line.

What they can and in a few instances in the recent past have done however, is refuse entry to the RoC itself to third country nationals, even though they do not require a visa for entry in to the RoC, or do and have such a valid visa, if they believe that the person will subsequently then cross the green line. They can not do this for EU nationals (because of the general principal of free movement of EU nationals in all EU member states) but they can and have done it for non EU nationals, all be it a tiny tiny % of the total of such nationals that have arrived at RoC airports seeking entry into the RoC.

Or to put it yet another way, the RoC has more (unilateral) control over which third country nationals it allows in to the RoC itself at airports like Larnaca than it does over which third country nationals it allows (has to allow as per the Green Line regulation) to cross the Green Line once they are IN Cyprus (north or south). It seems madness but the reality is they can not (legaly) stop an Israleli citizen (or any other third party national that does not need a visa to enter the RoC or does and has such) that is in Cyprus from crossing the Green line but they CAN (and have) stopped such from entering the RoC at all via Larnaca and other 'legal points of entry' on the basis they they might once having entered the RoC then cross the Green line.

When the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens will move from a category of nationals that can not (legally) be stopped from entering the RoC , to nationals that potentially could be refused entry to the RoC itself. They will go from a zero risk of turning up at Larnaca and being refused entry to the RoC and sent back from whence they came to some unknown degree of risk that is, to date, extremely low but is greater than zero.

Thanks Erol.

Took me a a couple of reads thro to get my head around the post. A good explanation. In summary we don’t know what will happen and the ROC could make things difficult, but how much more difficult is not yet known.

As an individual I cannot directly influence whatever decision the ROC may implement so I won’t loose any sleep over it!

[elizabeth]

A good explanation. In summary we don’t know what will happen and the ROC could make things difficult, but how much more difficult is not yet known.

That just about sums it up, so we'll just have to wait and see. Don't worry, Be happy.

[Ragged Robin]

Ok Erol has explained the situation for non EU nationals wanting to cross the Green Line from South to North. But what about North to South. I am thinking of the situation of a TRNC resident (possibly long term) who entered the TRNC via Ercan but now needs to return to the UK for health and /or financial reasons and due to said ill health, disability or age and frailty needs to go via Larnaca to cut down the flying time and difficulties of changing planes in Turkey.

[erol]

Ok Erol has explained the situation for non EU nationals wanting to cross the Green Line from South to North. But what about North to South. I am thinking of the situation of a TRNC resident (possibly long term) who entered the TRNC via Ercan but now needs to return to the UK for health and /or financial reasons and due to said ill health, disability or age and frailty needs to go via Larnaca to cut down the flying time and difficulties of changing planes in Turkey.

The agreement between the RoC and the EU as to who can cross the Green Line are the same whichever direction you are crossing. Currently if you are an EU national in the North and regardless of how you entered the North, you can cross. If you are a third country national in the North who does not require a visa to enter the RoC , then you can cross. If you are a third country national in the North who does require a visa to enter the RoC and you have such a valid visa you can cross.

[waz-24-7]

Thank you Erol for your summary of Green Line regulations. I am in agreement that the risk to UK nationals is likely to increase.
I believe the most important aspect that will effect UK citizens after March 2019 is the almost certain antagonistic approach towards UK citizens that almost overnight will become soft and vulnerable targets as supporters , investors or even possibly visitors to the Northern side of the Island.
Now many will pay little heed to this distinct probability. Look for a moment at the Gibraltar situation. Already Spain has notions and aspirations towards a more isolated UK enclave.

I am afraid that Sothern Cyprus will indeed capitalise on an opportunity to use UK subjects as objects of convenience to inflict damage against the TRNC and Turkey. They will seek publicity and news coups to deter others from visiting, supporting or investing in the region. The opportunity is without doubt there, it will be orchestrated in the usual vindictive manner and the vulnerable UK citizen will have little line of defence.

This is not a wait and see scenario in my view. Cyprus and Gibraltar are regions of certain increased vulnerability.
What surprises me is that 98% of Gibraltarians voted to remain in the EU whilst I think possibly that UK expats of voting age living in TRNC by enlarge voted to leave.

[PoshinDevon]

Thanks to Erol for clarifying the current rules.

For now we can speculate, look into crystal balls or whatever. The fact is that no one knows what will happen at the border either in March 2019 or when the U.K does finally leave the EU.

Things may become more difficult and then again maybe not. I suspect some of the posts and opinions on this subject are formed by wether you voted for or against Brexit.

Cannot get to worked up about it to be honest. What will be will be and I am confident that the majority will adapt to whatever scenario finally emerges.

[waz-24-7]

Posh

What is certain , very clear and without doubt is the vindictive stance that the ROC takes against Turkey, TRNC and its supporters or patrons.
I agree that we can only wait and see how and at what level the ROC will capitalise on the increased vulnerability of UK citizens post March 2019.

I, like you, will not lose any sleep over this but it is fair and proper that people are made aware as the topic starter has asked.

[PoshinDevon]

Erols excellent posts have outlined in detail the current situation.

Anything else is pure guesswork.

What will be will be and I am of the opinion that people will adapt and get used to whatever rulings (If any) are put in place.

[waz-24-7]

Hmmm
Current position is not overly relevant to the post March 2019 situation. Apart of course for EU citizens whos rights and privileges remain unaltered.

Also I don't think any guessing is needed upon how the South Side will capitalise on the forthcoming vulnerability of UK alien status. The regulations against supporters and investors of TRNC are already regulated and documented. No guesswork needed.

[PoshinDevon]

Hmmm
Current position is not overly relevant to the post March 2019 situation. Apart of course for EU citizens whos rights and privileges remain unaltered.

Also I don't think any guessing is needed upon how the South Side will capitalise on the forthcoming vulnerability of UK alien status. The regulations against supporters and investors of TRNC are already regulated and documented. No guesswork needed.

Of course the current position regarding the border crossing is relevant, because that is the position now and one we are familiar with. If things change at the border either post March 2019 or even later when the U.K. finally leaves the EU it will be a change from the current rules and regulations. It could be a major change, it could be a small change such as having to complete some sort of arrivals/departures paperwork or maybe nil change at all. Who knows?

Again it is pure speculation how the ROC will implement any changes to the current rules and regulations re crossing the border. I maintain that whatever happens those affected will adapt and life will go on.

[Ragged Robin]

Thanks to Erol for clarifying the current rules.



Cannot get to worked up about it to be honest. What will be will be and I am confident that the majority will adapt to whatever scenario finally emerges.

Do you not think that shows some lack of imagination and compassion ,Posh. For some it could mean live threatening failure of access to medical facilities and medication. And please do no say "then they should return to the UK". That is not as easy done as said, and worthy of Marie Antoinette.

[PoshinDevon]

No lack of compassion.

As for lack of imagination, as I have said nobody knows what will happen and getting all worried about it now is in my opinion wasted energy. If and when any changes to the current rules are announced and implemented that is the time to consider and think how they would affect you personally.

There is already a thread entitled... only the lonely on which I and others have commented. My view remains the same re health care and returning to the U.K. Of course it’s difficult to look into the future with regards to why you may have to consider returning to your home country. However it should be part of any thoughts when considering living in in a
different country in whatever part of the world.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

[elizabeth]

In the words of the song, Que sera sera !
Whether we are young or old, fit or sick, able bodied or otherwise , if problems do arise then we'll all be treated the same, I doubt if any concessions will be made and we'll all have to accept it.
Whatever happens, or doesn't happen, we will still be able to function as we did before the borders opened. It may be inconvenient and frustrating to have to fly through Turkey if returning to the UK but that could be the only option, we won't be marooned here? There seems very little point in worrying about something we cannot change so we all have to stay calm and wait to see how things progress.

[Hedge-fund]

Also I don't think any guessing is needed upon how the South Side will capitalise on the forthcoming vulnerability of UK alien status. .

Everytime you mention "alien" the Sting tune goes off in my head!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d27gTrPPAyk


Might have to swap "New York" for Erol's though

[Ragged Robin]

No lack of compassion.

As for lack of imagination, as I have said nobody knows what will happen and getting all worried about it now is in my opinion wasted energy. If and when any changes to the current rules are announced and implemented that is the time to consider and think how they would affect you personally.

There is already a thread entitled... only the lonely on which I and others have commented. My view remains the same re health care and returning to the U.K. Of course it’s difficult to look into the future with regards to why you may have to consider returning to your home country. However it should be part of any thoughts when considering living in in a
different country in whatever part of the world.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

On the one hand you say "Dont worry" on the other you say your fault if you did not plan for this situation! I did say dont say "go back" because it is not always possible for some. Please try to avoid the "Im all right Jack~" attitude and saying "the poor have no bread let them eat cake!" is not the right answer, Who was it said dont critisize a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes"

[waddo]

The title of this thread is - "what will likely happen come March 2019 at the crossing?"

After reading all of the contributions the answer is simple - Nobody knows! Despite all the facts and guesses and worry's and peoples concerns either for themselves or for others the answer remains the same. It is the same as the answer to the question "what will happen after Brexit?", in fact it is the same answer for just about everything you can think of. Stop worrying about it and wait for it to happen, then deal with it. In this particular instance it is not about planing for the future because there are too many variables to plan for. I am sure that a lot of people planed to live here forever, good solid plans that withstood the test of time - until they failed, this is the same. I live here, I hope to stay here till I die and end up in the box down in the Dhekelia Military Cemetery, that is the plan - of course if I do it before March 2019 then no problem but I don't actually want to do it that soon - so what about after 2019????????? No point in worrying at this stage in the game people - wait and see.

[PoshinDevon]

No lack of compassion.

As for lack of imagination, as I have said nobody knows what will happen and getting all worried about it now is in my opinion wasted energy. If and when any changes to the current rules are announced and implemented that is the time to consider and think how they would affect you personally.

There is already a thread entitled... only the lonely on which I and others have commented. My view remains the same re health care and returning to the U.K. Of course it’s difficult to look into the future with regards to why you may have to consider returning to your home country. However it should be part of any thoughts when considering living in in a
different country in whatever part of the world.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

On the one hand you say "Dont worry" on the other you say your fault if you did not plan for this situation! I did say dont say "go back" because it is not always possible for some. Please try to avoid the "Im all right Jack~" attitude and saying "the poor have no bread let them eat cake!" is not the right answer, Who was it said dont critisize a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes"

RR - Firstly if you did not plan for the future - whatever that future may hold, then that’s a personal decision and in my opinion no ones fault but your own. Whilst you may not accept my point of view I have no reason to change it.

As for your other comments I shall ignore them as they are not worth responding to.

[Keithcaley]

...Who was it said (")dont (sic) critisize (sic) a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes"

Well, the aphorism that you have attempted to paraphrase appears to have originally referred to moccasins, so I'm afraid that there does not appear to be a reliable means of naming the speaker, as his identity is lost in the mists of time...

However, the following is attributed to Steve Martin, one of my favourite actors: -

"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, when you do criticize him, you'll be a mile away and have his shoes."

I always thought that this was particularly good advice, because of the unstated implication that you would also have the advantage of a good mile's head start!

RR, to be serious for a moment, there is no point in getting wound up about it.

From what we know at the moment, which amounts to 'not very much at all', I think we can say that unless Mrs. May pulls off some breathtakingly successful and innovative deals as part of the BREXIT negotiations, (which I, on the basis of 'no information whatsoever' don't believe will happen) then we Ex-Pats will probably find our circumstances altered for the worse, and face some different challenges - varying according to our needs, of course.

As for 'Planning for the worst and hoping for the best' (I know, I phrased that the other way around) it means considering, in advance, what you will do if things really do go 'Pear Shaped' but being really grateful if they don't!

I make no comment on the general prospects for the UK 'post BREXIT' as that is well outside of the topic (and I don't know anyway).

[Ragged Robin]

Keith: I am not getting worked up about the situation I am trying to to consider my options (and those of others in a similar situation) if and when Brexit takes place and if and/or when there are problems accessing the South for medical needs.In this area I am inclined to agree with Waz in that certain elements in the RoC may well use the loss of EC citizenship to make things difficult for British residents of the TRNC

What is enough to try the patience of a saint is the attitude of some people who on the one hand tell me not to worry and on the other blame people for lack of preparation

[waz-24-7]

I do think this "wait and see" "we just don't know" fails to answer the question.
The question: "what will likely happen come March 2019"

I have on many occasions highlighted the loss of EU privileges and protections as fact. Loss of free right of passage is no uncertainty or indeed unlikely.
The attitude of Southern Cyprus administration against the TRNC and its patrons is clear and well known even by the most novice regular visitor to TRNC. This is fact.
The level of vulnerability after 2019 is, in my view, quite clear also.

There is an increased risk, as Erol has also indicated, that things will become different and more risky for UK aliens.

My advice is prepare for change. Negative change. You cant predict when you may be involved in a car crash. If you drive the car on the road the risk is there. The more you use the car the probability increases of course.

Don't wait and see. Plan, be ready and expect the worse. OR don't drive on that road.

[Keithcaley]

...people who on the one hand tell me not to worry and on the other blame people for lack of preparation

Don't sit WORRYING about what might happen, assume the worst and PLAN for it - if it doesn't happen, fine, and if it does, well, you've got your plan and nothing to worry about!

[waz-24-7]

Indeed Keith
worrying about it will do no good.
Be aware of the forthcoming changes and plan accordingly.
Personally I think Ercan may be the new port of entry for me though it will cause me some additional travel time and cost.

Visits to the South may need to be curtailed.
If a settlement arrives ( very unlikely) then we are still in the ROC( an EU state). I will remain an Alien but I would feel rather less vulnerable. Direct flights possibly?
OR time to seek new pastures.

[PoshinDevon]

Agree that worrying does no one any good. Keeping a careful watch on how things unfold and planning ahead is the way forward. If flying into and out of a ROC airport becomes difficult, restrictive or impossible then we will make more use of Ercan.

People will adapt or if things prove to difficult, make the decision to move on

[jimm]

I do not really care, been going to the TRNC for 14 years and have never needed to go south, if something was not available in the shops we have done without until it is available

[waz-24-7]

I do not really care, been going to the TRNC for 14 years and have never needed to go south, if something was not available in the shops we have done without until it is available

If it was as simple as shopping issues then we have no problem whatsoever.

Mrs May will surely take heed of your views when and if she negotiates a deal with the ROC.

[elizabeth]

Whatever happens is out of our hands, but if problems arise then we will just have to accept them. We'll still be able to travel to and from TRNC through Ercan via Turkey, we'll have food in the shops, petrol in the garages and health care, both state and private. Apart from the odd shopping trip or a visit to the Troodos nothing much will change so what is the great concern, it was like this until 2004 and we coped then.

[waz-24-7]

What remains absolutely amazing to me as a clear remain supporter.

Is that the perceived majority on this forum voted for a newly financed health service.... not going to happen I think.
And some notion that the UK can close its borders to European labour supply.... disastrous to the UK economy.

I detected some time ago what I identify as a lack of understanding or gullibility to what was peddled by the BREXIT bus,

Gibraltarians appeared to have got the message being another UK offshore enclave... 98% voted remain.
I wonder what % of TRNC UK enclave voted leave. I'm guessing about 80%.

Bit off topic but given the clear identification of BREXIT timeline within the title. Very relevant indeed.

[PoshinDevon]

Please post Brexit thoughts in the Brexit topic.

Future posts deemed to be a discussion about Brexit will be deleted. This topic is a discussion about what may or may not happen at the border come March 2019. Let’s try not to confuse things.

[kerry 6138]

What remains absolutely amazing to me as a clear remain supporter.

Is that the perceived majority on this forum voted for a newly financed health service.... not going to happen I think.
And some notion that the UK can close its borders to European labour supply.... disastrous to the UK economy.

I detected some time ago what I identify as a lack of understanding or gullibility to what was peddled by the BREXIT bus,

Gibraltarians appeared to have got the message being another UK offshore enclave... 98% voted remain.
I wonder what % of TRNC UK enclave voted leave. I'm guessing about 80%.

Bit off topic but given the clear identification of BREXIT timeline within the title. Very relevant indeed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43126719

Local businesses are beginning to get more used to the idea of operating outside the single market, especially after the government of Gibraltar revealed that roughly 90% of its financial services trade within the single market is actually with the UK.

"Somehow we had not realised or considered it before," says Joe Garcia, a veteran local journalist who has been covering all things Gibraltar since the 1960s

[waz-24-7]

What remains absolutely amazing to me as a clear remain supporter.

Is that the perceived majority on this forum voted for a newly financed health service.... not going to happen I think.
And some notion that the UK can close its borders to European labour supply.... disastrous to the UK economy.

I detected some time ago what I identify as a lack of understanding or gullibility to what was peddled by the BREXIT bus,

Gibraltarians appeared to have got the message being another UK offshore enclave... 98% voted remain.
I wonder what % of TRNC UK enclave voted leave. I'm guessing about 80%.

Bit off topic but given the clear identification of BREXIT timeline within the title. Very relevant indeed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43126719

Local businesses are beginning to get more used to the idea of operating outside the single market, especially after the government of Gibraltar revealed that roughly 90% of its financial services trade within the single market is actually with the UK.

"Somehow we had not realised or considered it before," says Joe Garcia, a veteran local journalist who has been covering all things Gibraltar since the 1960s

Kerry
Good news for Gibraltar business. Local journalists are always a superb source of true fact ...HA HA HA
Perhaps Gibraltarians don't want to enter Spain !!
Think you missed my point which was the way the voters went.
98% remain.
Why?
They perceived the increased vulnerability being outside the EU without the clear right of passage they currently enjoy.

TRNC ex pats failed to see this I think.
" we don't go south"
" we enter via ercan"
" wait and see"
" who cares"

rather naïve I think. Any reduction in freedoms and privileges is a major negative in my book. And what for I ask?

[PoshinDevon]

We have drifted from putting forward thoughts about what may happen at the border post March 2019 and now we see increasing comments which really do belong in the Brexit topic.

As far as this topic is concerned the current rules and regulations for crossing the border have been highlighted in detail. In addition there have been a good number of posts suggesting what may happen and how people may react. No one can say for certain what if any new regulations may come into force nor to what level it may impact those wishing to cross the border in the future.

This topic has gone as far as it can and is now locked, however please feel free to continue the Brexit discussion on the Brexit topic.