Russian expulsions

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Mon 26 Mar 2018 10:09 pm

The unprecedented expulsion of Russian diplomats/spies heralds a significant counter measure against Russian intervention into the matters of other countries. Cyber attack, invasion and a generally an aggressive stance by Mr Putin has been countered by a unilateral message of solidarity.
What will be the Russian response and could it all turn nasty? Or indeed is it already nasty?

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 9:39 am

Is it unprecedented?

guru · Post by **guru** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 10:03 am

Hmmm I bet the GC's won't be expelling any Russians in solidarity with the UK and their other EU partners, as they're too busy grovelling and sniffing Putins @*** hole

EnjoyingTheSun · Post by **EnjoyingTheSun** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 11:26 am

I think you'll find it's British diplomats but Russian spies.
Lots of posturing and playing to the gallery, nothing I'd be alarmed about

kayc · Post by **kayc** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 2:10 pm

Putin revels in these games. It was said on the BBC "it was a coordinated action". No doubt, Putin has already calculated his next move and the one after that.

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 4:47 pm

I'm sure your are absolutely correct kayc, Putin must be a terrific chess player (or someone very, very close to him is)!

artic monkey · Post by **artic monkey** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 5:25 pm

[quot

waz-24-7 wrote: a significant counter measure against Russian intervention into the matters of other countries.

e][/quote]
That`s a good one.The rank hypocrisy stinks to high heaven:if "diplomats/spies" are being expelled because of Russian interference in other countries then America,the UK,and israel would have very little representation left anywhere on the planet.Russia was invited into Syria by Assad,and the people of Crimea wish to align with Russia,which is more than can be said for the Western presence in many of the countries they have,and still are interfering in.They have all been blaming Russia for all the world`s ills and itching to impose sanctions on it for a number of years now.Thanks to Teresa disMAYhem,Calamity Johnson,and the motormouth Williamson they have got their opportunity thanks to the very convenient nerve agent incident,all without an iota of proof so far of course.

kayc · Post by **kayc** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 8:53 pm

artic monkey wrote:[quot
waz-24-7 wrote: a significant counter measure against Russian intervention into the matters of other countries.
e]

That`s a good one.The rank hypocrisy stinks to high heaven:if "diplomats/spies" are being expelled because of Russian interference in other countries then America,the UK,and israel would have very little representation left anywhere on the planet.Russia was invited into Syria by Assad,and the people of Crimea wish to align with Russia,which is more than can be said for the Western presence in many of the countries they have,and still are interfering in.They have all been blaming Russia for all the world`s ills and itching to impose sanctions on it for a number of years now.Thanks to Teresa disMAYhem,Calamity Johnson,and the motormouth Williamson they have got their opportunity thanks to the very convenient nerve agent incident,all without an iota of proof so far of course.[/quote]

Well said Artic Monkey! The UN ambassador for the USA is the "prime brand" of hypocrisy, IMO. She's as two-faced as them come. I could puke listening to her (and Trump as well)

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/14/poli ... index.html

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 27 Mar 2018 9:19 pm

I think Mr Putin is indeed a chess player playing on a rather naïve world stage.
Russian intervention via Cyber infiltration is emerging almost daily. Today we see the trading of face book data and Cambridge analytica using such data to corrupt political and democratic process.

The target of Russia's attack Sergei Skripal posed no threat to that country. What was the real objective? Perhaps Mr Putin simply wanted to test the resolve of the UK to act against such an attack. Furthermore the resolve of Europe and NATO would be tested. Would they stand behind the UK or would they bury heads in the sand.
Clearly not. Mr Putin must now be quite shocked with the resultant aftermath of his test case attack.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Wed 28 Mar 2018 9:21 am

waz-24-7 wrote:... Perhaps Mr Putin simply wanted to test the resolve of the UK to act against such an attack....Mr Putin must now be quite shocked with the resultant aftermath of his test case attack.

Or perhaps he did it for 'Domestic' reasons - to bolster his image prior to the elections...

artic monkey · Post by **artic monkey** » Wed 28 Mar 2018 11:57 am

Keithcaley wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:... Perhaps Mr Putin simply wanted to test the resolve of the UK to act against such an attack....Mr Putin must now be quite shocked with the resultant aftermath of his test case attack.
Or perhaps he did it for 'Domestic' reasons - to bolster his image prior to the elections...

Or perhaps,as there is still not a shred of definitive evidence or proof,he did not do it at all.

kayc · Post by **kayc** » Wed 28 Mar 2018 2:28 pm

Perhaps Theresa May should rethink this...

scaffman · Post by **scaffman** » Wed 28 Mar 2018 2:37 pm

WELL I TOTALLY AGREE WITH COMMENTS MADE ON THIS FORUM . GOVERNMENTS PLAYING SILLY GAMES AND I THINK NOT THE GENERAL THINKING OF THE PEOPLE.HOW CAN YOU ACCUSE RUSSIA OF THIS POISONING WHEN THERE IS NOT ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE TO DATE THAT THEY ARE GUILTY.THE SAID CHEMICAL WAS MADE IN RUSSIA BUT ALSO I AM SURE SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.THE FACT IS THIS CHEMICAL COULD HAVE COME FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.I THINK IT HAS BEEN ALL PLANNED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY TO PUT PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.LIKE ALWAYS WE JUMP IN WITH BOTH FEET WITHOUT THE TRUE FACTS AT HAND.IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE VICTIMS IF THEY SURVIVE WHAT THEIR EVENTS ARE.BORIS JOHNSON NEEDS TO ENGAGE THE BRAIN BEFORE SPEAKING COMPLETE IDIOT.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Wed 28 Mar 2018 11:40 pm

I Think that if Russia was innocent in this matter then they would be making every effort to secure evidence to support their claim of innocence.
Now if some third part has indeed done this evil deed in order to tarnish Russian status. Then it would be in Russia's resolve to seek culprits or at least announce that they intended to identify the culprit. They have been silent on the matter bar their claim of innocence and the claim that accusations are totally unfounded !
Of course we also shouldn't forget the case of . Alexander Litvinenko poisoned in 2006 again on UK soil.
A UK public inquiry found that Mr Putin more than likely approved the assassination.
Should we question that too?

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Thu 29 Mar 2018 8:12 am

Putin's as guilty as sin. He thought he could act with impunity as UK may be weakened by Brexit. It's come back to bite him. Scaffman, you are shouting in the wind.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Thu 29 Mar 2018 12:16 pm

Well, it looks like the majority of people agree that Russia is guilty unless proven innocent then? That assumption based on no concrete evidence apart from the "Truth" glibly spread about by newspapers and rock solid statements from such as Boris! I have yet to see any report, anywhere, that includes positive proof that the "agent" was manufactured in Russia or/and that a sample of the discovered agent had been provided for Russia to check itself?

Happy to be proven - that is "Proven" - wrong about the whole thing but it appears to be very one sided at this time, it is a bit like "Who killed JFK and was a certain princess really murdered to protect another party"? Just a thought but as has already been mentioned - the RoC has not taken up the "get rid of the embassy staff" competition so maybe, just maybe, they are the ones who did it? But then as they have not yet said they are innocent I guess they can't be guilty!!!

artic monkey · Post by **artic monkey** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 12:59 pm

Daughter now making miraculous recovery,policeman already made miraculous recovery,father next to make miraculous recovery?;all from this totally lethal and invariably fatal nerve agent.Focus of infection now believed to be victims front door and not daughters luggage,restaurant,taxi,park bench etc..Still not a shred of evidence produced by Calamity Johnson,Teresa disMAYhem,and Gavin Gobsh+*% Williamson.
The EU countries and others,with the exception of the puppetmaster America of course,will soon realize that they have been suckered into their knee-jerk expulsions of Russian personnel.Jaw-Jaw comes to mind,not isolation.Peace is made with one`s enemies.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 1:26 pm

I am not sure the U.K. government would want to fully divulge all the “evidence” they have with regards to this case.

I am sure that much of the work, investigation, evidence on how they determined that Russia was/is involved or implicated etc is something that they would not share in the public domain. It’s a secret murky world in which not a lot is revealed to the other side and definitely not to joe public no matter how indignant we may feel about not being told.

The information provided seems to satisfy those countries that have taken action against Russia.

Good enough for me.

ttoli · Post by **ttoli** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 1:54 pm

leaves me wondering if this was a "genuine oversight" then http://cyprus-mail.com/2018/03/28/rt-ap ... ag-cyprus/

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 3:41 pm

artic monkey wrote:Daughter now making miraculous recovery,policeman already made miraculous recovery,father next to make miraculous recovery?;all from this totally lethal and invariably fatal nerve agent.Focus of infection now believed to be victims front door and not daughters luggage,restaurant,taxi,park bench etc..Still not a shred of evidence produced by Calamity Johnson,Teresa disMAYhem,and Gavin Gobsh+*% Williamson.
The EU countries and others,with the exception of the puppetmaster America of course,will soon realize that they have been suckered into their knee-jerk expulsions of Russian personnel.Jaw-Jaw comes to mind,not isolation.Peace is made with one`s enemies.

I bet you think you look good on the dance floor too!

Brazen · Post by **Brazen** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 4:49 pm

Does anyone else find it amazing that they knew from day 1 that the Russians were 'responsible' but have only just discovered (nearly a month) how the poison was administered?
Obviously the Russians are the most probable culprits but the lack of evidence raises a lot of unanswered questions.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 5:09 pm

You say lack of evidence.

How do you know there is a lack of evidence.

As I said in an earlier post there may well be a lot of evidence, however how and why the evidence came to light is I am sure not something that HM Govt is going to divulge easily.

How we obtained the evidence or what that evidence is could be shrouded in secrecy for very good reason.

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 8:32 pm

If it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

How do you find the defendant Mr Putin?

Guilty as Jemima Puddleduck, m'lud!

erol · Post by **erol** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 8:38 pm

There is to date however a lack of evidence that can be shown. To my mind if the UK government does have real hard and credible evidence of Russia's culpability in this , which it may do, and that it is unable to disclose it for whatever reason, then the proper approach would to be to have also responded 'privately'. Call in the Russian ambassador and tell them privately that we know that Russia is culpable and that we respond accordingly but privately. So for example stop the city selling Russian debt and tell them privately that this is a response to their actions but do not publicly link it to such. Tell the Russians that we will make life impossible for Russian diplomats based in the UK and do that but do it privately. Tell the Russian's privately that we will respond in kind and do so privately even.

My concern is, that whatever the truth may be, known or not known, the Government does appear to me to be exploiting the situation for essentially narrow and short term political gain and self interest and not responding to it based on long term national interest. Too much politically motivated 'playing to the Gallery' for my tastes.

erol · Post by **erol** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 8:43 pm

frontalman wrote:If it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

How do you find the defendant Mr Putin?

Guilty as Jemima Puddleduck, m'lud!

Have you ever done jury service ?

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 11:23 pm

erol wrote:There is to date however a lack of evidence that can be shown. To my mind if the UK government does have real hard and credible evidence of Russia's culpability in this , which it may do, and that it is unable to disclose it for whatever reason, then the proper approach would to be to have also responded 'privately'....

I would suggest that it's reasonable to say that following the unavoidable publicity of the incident (cordoning-off, HazMat/BioChem garbed specialists, and everything else), any attempt by the government to "privately" respond would be seen - and VERY loudly decried - as a hush-up, in exactly the same way that some allege government guilt and cover-up (as already produced on this forum... ).

....the Government does appear to me to be exploiting the situation for essentially narrow and short term political gain and self interest and not responding to it based on long term national interest. Too much politically motivated 'playing to the Gallery' for my tastes.

Name a government (throughout history and around the world) that has not been guilty at one time or another of any of these failings?

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Fri 30 Mar 2018 11:43 pm

erol wrote:
frontalman wrote:If it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

How do you find the defendant Mr Putin?

Guilty as Jemima Puddleduck, m'lud!
Have you ever done jury service ?

I've watched LA Law

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 31 Mar 2018 7:18 am

jofra wrote: I would suggest that it's reasonable to say that following the unavoidable publicity of the incident (cordoning-off, HazMat/BioChem garbed specialists, and everything else), any attempt by the government to "privately" respond would be seen - and VERY loudly decried - as a hush-up, in exactly the same way that some allege government guilt and cover-up (as already produced on this forum... ).

I am not suggesting keep the event and that it occurred 'secret'. I am saying if the evidence as to who is responsible for the event can not be made public then keep the accusation and the response to the act 'private'.

jofra wrote:Name a government (throughout history and around the world) that has not been guilty at one time or another of any of these failings?

In my view the domestic political need of Mrs May to be seen to 'look tough' at this point in time and have something on the papers headlines other than Brrexit is or should be irrelevant when compared with the national need to respond robustly if they do have incontrovertible evidence of Russia's culpability. The national need does not require a response that has to be 'seen', it just needs to be effective in discouraging such acts in the future. Whether May retains leadership of the Tory party really does not matter that much to me or I suggest the world in general. Pushing the world into a new era of 'Cold War' between East and West does matter it seems to me.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Sat 31 Mar 2018 8:55 am

not the opinion of "self made experts" is important.. only relevant is what the "officials" say...
the (new) german foreign minister said:
".... the facts and evidence point to Russia. So far, the Russian government has not answered any of the open questions and has shown no willingness to play a constructive role in clarifying the attack..."

because russia also does not answer other questions, eg, what about the recent "bundestag- hacker-attack"?, germany joined the "expulsion club".
(and maybe also to show the UK that maybe a membership in the EU is not THAT bad)

but NOT because there is "proven evidence" that Russia is behind the attemted Skripal murder.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 31 Mar 2018 9:49 am

I do notice that Boris seems to have his gag firmly in place again, maybe he miss read his script again! It has all let the "one year to go" date for Brexit conveniently slide past the news - or in the case of the BBC, rapidly be dropped from the news - so that is a good thing too. Maybe it was the postman who did it - a quick squirt of stuff on the front door and leg it down the road! Takes the heat off the Royal Mail for not getting our mail through to here as well. For Erol, I have been both sides of a jury, on one and judged by one and the one thing they all look for is "Proof", in this case there is proof that Russia developed the substance but no proof that they ever used it. So if you take the case of the Falklands and who is to blame for sinking our ships, it must be France because they sold Argentina the weapons that were used??? This has become a real circular argument/discussion and until proof of actions are made available there can be no conclusive answer.

artic monkey · Post by **artic monkey** » Sat 31 Mar 2018 2:49 pm

Saturday afternoon,just off down the pub for a few pints of my favourite nerve (deadening) agent,hope to be fully recovered by Monday.

Lem · Post by **Lem** » Sat 31 Mar 2018 5:51 pm

Why do contributors not leave a space behind a comma? Is it a secret code? Does it signify a connection like a verbal version of a masonic handshake? Is it a sign of Russian influence, (i.e.) a Cyrillic alphabet habit?

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Sat 31 Mar 2018 7:37 pm

Nah,just a stickykeyboard, probably!

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sun 01 Apr 2018 10:34 am

Lem wrote:Why do contributors not leave a space behind a comma? Is it a secret code? Does it signify a connection like a verbal version of a masonic handshake? Is it a sign of Russian influence, (i.e.) a Cyrillic alphabet habit?

Good point Lem. If they can get Donald Trump elected and UK out of the EU, then sending a bunch of expats down the garden path can't be too difficult

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sun 01 Apr 2018 9:19 pm

The Russians have been notably lacking in offering any form of explanation how a Russian made agent has come to be employed in the said crime.
The targets presented no threat to Mr Putin or Russia.
My view is that it is a test upon the UK. Its resolve and the resolve also of its allies. Mr Putin clearly wants a divided and weakened Europe. As the UK departs from Europe. Would other Europeans step up and stand in solidarity OR would the UK be isolated in its response.
The outcome of that is now clear.

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sun 01 Apr 2018 9:53 pm

Completely agree with you. He perceived the UK as being weak and friendless due to Brexit. I think he miscalculated badly.

akvam · Post by **akvam** » Tue 03 Apr 2018 7:10 pm

https://news.sky.com/story/porton-down- ... y-11315387

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Tue 03 Apr 2018 8:20 pm

I don't think this makes any difference, it still points very much towards Russia.

desih · Post by **desih** » Tue 03 Apr 2018 10:30 pm

I agree frontalman, all the evidence points to Russia (don't care what anybody says) , those Russians appear intent on diverting attention from the Brexit shambles! The whole thing reminds me of how those foreigners fooled the 'United' kingdom into invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria etc..

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Wed 04 Apr 2018 7:20 am

It's funny how opponents of the regime in Russia receive such crap treatment in 'court', being banged up for tens of years on flimsy trumped up charges, yet Putin and Lavrov cry foul on this poisoning incident because it can't be proved 1,000 per cent.

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Fri 06 Apr 2018 10:04 am

Now it is getting serious. Just read on Skynews website that two English guinea pigs and an English cat have died as a result of this poisoning. This could mean war!

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Fri 06 Apr 2018 11:07 am

Different tale from the BBC, the pigs and cat were left on their own by the police and died of lack of water/food. War averted it seems!

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Fri 06 Apr 2018 3:19 pm

I knew that. I said as a result of the poisoning, not by poisoning. The animals were neglected because their owner was unconscious. The house was off limits I suppose.

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sun 08 Apr 2018 8:34 am

Nikolai and Elena, our lovely Russian neighbours brought a large plate of cakes to us this morning, saying it was the Russian Easter and wishing us a Happy Easter. I said "Thanks, they look lovely". He said "And of course, a liberal splashing of Novichok".

Good to see the decent Russians have a sense of humour about it. I've sent a piece to Keith Caley to try it first, though.

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sun 08 Apr 2018 9:50 am

frontalman wrote:...I've sent a piece to Keith Caley to try it first, though.

You need a proper, functioning nervous system for it to act upon... mine was pickled into submission years ago!

frontalman · Post by **frontalman** » Sun 08 Apr 2018 1:42 pm

Ohhh, I thought you was my (nerve) agent.

Brazen · Post by **Brazen** » Wed 11 Apr 2018 9:45 am

It's really good news that they have now found an antidote for a 'deadly nerve agent with no antidote and certain death' isn't it?

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Wed 11 Apr 2018 11:08 am

Brazen wrote:It's really good news that they have now found an antidote for a 'deadly nerve agent with no antidote and certain death' isn't it?

No 'Antidote at all' Brazen - from Sky News 2 hours ago: -

The precise way novichok is metabolised by the body is not fully known, says Prof Hay. However, if someone can be kept alive long enough after the initial poisoning, then the body stands a chance of ridding itself of the toxin. "The nerve agents are eventually metabolised and excreted from the body,"

The trick is 'keeping them alive long enough' - and they have been on life support in an Intensive Care Unit!

Full marks to the doctors and nurses for doing a good job.

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