Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration arri.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Back in the day we used to carry around our cheque book and cheque card, remembering of course to keep them separate.
Then we moved onto debit cards where we signed a bit of paper. Fraud went up in a big way but I assume the banks bean counted the cost of the frauds against jobs saved processing cheques.
Then we went to chip and pin. Now there wasn't even a signature to check. Again fraud went up as the scammers got better at cloning cards quicker than we could remember our pin numbers.
Now we have gone to contactless and surprise surprise fraud had gone up again.
I do realise that how meaningful or not any given report or figures or statistics are is directly related to how much they support a given viewpoint or not but just for you here are some recent headline figures for you.

Source (pdf) : https://www.financialfraudaction.org.uk ... _facts.pdf
Overall card fraud losses as a proportion of the amount we spend on our cards has decreased slightly during 2016, falling from 8.4p per £100 spent in 2015 to 8.3p per £100 in 2016 (in 2008 it was 12.4p for every £100 spent). This indicates that although payment card fraud is increasing, it is doing so at a slightly slower rate than genuine usage.

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Re: Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration a

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
I do realise that how meaningful or not any given report or figures or statistics are is directly related to how much they support a given viewpoint or not but just for you here are some recent headline figures for you.

Source (pdf) : https://www.financialfraudaction.org.uk ... _facts.pdf
Overall card fraud losses as a proportion of the amount we spend on our cards has decreased slightly during 2016, falling from 8.4p per £100 spent in 2015 to 8.3p per £100 in 2016 (in 2008 it was 12.4p for every £100 spent). This indicates that although payment card fraud is increasing, it is doing so at a slightly slower rate than genuine usage.
I admit my view is based on anecdotal evidence based on conversations with a friend who has a pretty high level job with HSBC dealing with fraid but I have no reason to doubt him. Also it's suported by speaking to more and more people who have been defrauded in elaborate ways.


I'll be honest and admit to be skeptical of statistics produced by a quango formed to stop something. I am still waiting for the day when one of these bodies produce a report that says hands up we have managed to achieve zero.


Statistics you can slice and dice how you like and obviously the easier you make something the more people use it.
Which is why when you are behind a group of six friends in Starbucks you have to wait for them to each pay for their individual cup of coffee with a debit card!

So an 8.4 drop to 8.3 can be trumpeted as a triumph I guess.

I doubt if the figures in the U.S. are hugely different to the UK and they also dropped in the last year to a 10% rise down from a 70% rise.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking ... raud-fico/
"FICO reported today that the number of debit cards compromised at ATMs and merchant devices in the U.S. rose 10% in 2017 over the previous year. It’s a less extreme increase than the 70% jump in such fraud in 2016."

Moving back to airport security would a machine scanning a passport be able to use common sense that this person in front of me named Sven Svensson who looks like Bin Laden might not necessarily be Swedish and if he isn't, why is he pretending to be.
Or would it just scan away and if the dots join let him through?

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Re: Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration a

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Post by waddo »

All of this and the UK population still fight against having an ID card because it is an invasion of privacy? The mind boggles!
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Re: Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration a

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:All of this and the UK population still fight against having an ID card because it is an invasion of privacy? The mind boggles!
The problem with ID cards is that when first suggested they were optional and with the human rights no doubt if asked for them you could refuse.
Considering a major plus point of them is to catch wrong uns, making them optional to obtain or produce defeats the object somewhat as the only people who bought them, carry them and produce them would be the ones who obey the law anyway.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:I admit my view is based on anecdotal evidence based on conversations with a friend who has a pretty high level job with HSBC dealing with fraid but I have no reason to doubt him. Also it's suported by speaking to more and more people who have been defrauded in elaborate ways.
I do not know if fraud has increased as we have moved from cheques to swipe cards and signatures to chip and pin and now contactless. I do question the anecdotal view, presented as fact, that it has. I do also think the only valid measure in such a determination is the volume of fraudulent transaction in monetary amounts as a % vs the amounts of non fraudulent transactions. I personally am far from convinced that this % has increased as the technologies used to make transactions have changed. According to this article in the telegraph it is only this year (2018) that in total volume terms contactless card fraud has overtaken cheque scams for the first time (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... irst-time/). Or there is this article from 2011 that would also challenge the idea that there has been a simple straight line increase in fraud as new technologies are introduced (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/ ... -fraud-low). Or if you want anecdotal, have you seen the movie 'catch me if you can' ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:I'll be honest and admit to be skeptical of statistics produced by a quango formed to stop something. I am still waiting for the day when one of these bodies produce a report that says hands up we have managed to achieve zero.
Being sceptical is imo a good thing. However there can be situations where someone is sceptical only of 'evidence' that challenges their belief but who does not show the same level of scepticism to any evidence that does support their belief
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Moving back to airport security would a machine scanning a passport be able to use common sense that this person in front of me named Sven Svensson who looks like Bin Laden might not necessarily be Swedish and if he isn't, why is he pretending to be.
Or would it just scan away and if the dots join let him through?
I do not think in reality that the recording of passport details as people enter a country is an integral part of stopping terrorist activities. It is as I see it an administrative / clerical data collection process. It may be that a, or multiple, terrorist acts have in fact been thwarted simply by the exercise of common sense by a boarder guard in the process of recording someones entry in to a country but if this is the case I am not aware of any such cases. It seems to me well within the realms of possibility that by automating the administrative / clerical task of recording peoples entry you can free time and resources of boarder staff that could be directed to more effective means of ensuring security than them thinking someone looks shifty at the point at which their entry is recorded.

Over all it does feel (and I use the word feel because that is all it is) to me that your views on both increasing fraud on payment systems as technology changes and the value of human recording of people entering a country vs automated systems are informed more by some general sense of someone growing older in fast changing world feeling a nostalgia for how things used to be and how much better they used to be rather than some analysis based on credible hard data.

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Re: Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration a

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote: I do question the anecdotal view, presented as fact, that it has. I do also think the only valid measure in such a determination is the volume of fraudulent transaction in monetary amounts as a % vs the amounts of non fraudulent transactions.
Like I say believe my anecdotal evidence or not, I do and have no reason to believe my friend is lying.
I am a little cynical that in the push to upgrade that banks will produce official figures that say; “It’s a lot more convenient but hey the chances of you being defrauded have just doubled.”

From my own point of view I can assure you that all the technology, and I've used most, to spot forged dollars isn’t as effective as someone who has the experience to know what to check. I’ve handled millions of dollars (not my own unfortunately) and will take the Pepsi test against an ultra violet machine and suchlike because experience tells me what to look for.
erol wrote: Being sceptical is imo a good thing. However there can be situations where someone is sceptical only of 'evidence' that challenges their belief but who does not show the same level of scepticism to any evidence that does support their belief
Well obviously there is always my facts are better than your facts view but I’ll make a deal if you can find me one report from any quango that basically states; “Actually as the data shows we have pretty much achieved zilch and in fact are a waste of money,” I’ll eat up every Guardinista stat you produce with a spoon.
erol wrote: It seems to me well within the realms of possibility that by automating the administrative / clerical task of recording peoples entry you can free time and resources of boarder staff that could be directed to more effective means of ensuring security than them thinking someone looks shifty at the point at which their entry is recorded.
But surely you must realise it won’t free up time for border staff it will replace them and those who survive with more time will have it directed at weighing luggage or a more potentially profitable task.
Banks didn’t bring in chip and pin to stop fraud they bought it in to cut staff as long as the cost of the fraud didn't outweigh the savings in staff the bean counters can justify it.
Peoples lives are a little more difficult to bean count but I guess they can factor in compensation payouts.

I sincerely hope to be wrong on this but I fear that as soon as this self-scanning becomes the norm it will be hacked and the fail-safe back up will fail and tragedy will ensue. I promise not to take the opportunity of some poor people’s deaths to say I told you so.

I love the fast changing world and the technical advances have in the main enhanced the world.
But although not every upgrade is a leap forward but many will keep fiddling with things to justify their existence.
For example an upgrade for your iplayer that will now include all UK channels is an improvement an upgrade that will tweet what you are watching to all your friends or put it on your Facebook page no so much.

Just because you can do something doesn’t always mean you should do something.

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Re: Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration a

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Post by wanderer »

You need to take your glasses off for the camera to match you to the passport
FAIL I cant see to operate the bloody machine

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Post by Keithcaley »

wanderer wrote:You need to take your glasses off for the camera to match you to the passport
FAIL I cant see to operate the bloody machine
I had that discussion at Heathrow - I was putting my passport in the wrong way around, and the guy said 'Look there's a picture of how it's supposed to go...' to which I replied 'How the **** am I supposed to be able to see that without my glasses on?'

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Keithcaley wrote:
wanderer wrote:You need to take your glasses off for the camera to match you to the passport
FAIL I cant see to operate the bloody machine
I had that discussion at Heathrow - I was putting my passport in the wrong way around, and the guy said 'Look there's a picture of how it's supposed to go...' to which I replied 'How the **** am I supposed to be able to see that without my glasses on?'
Could you not have gone through walking on your hands?

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Post by Keithcaley »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:... Could you not have gone through walking on your hands?
Erm....

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Re: Larnaca Airport, self scanning passport at immigration a

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Post by torontomapleleaf »

Keithcaley wrote:
wanderer wrote:You need to take your glasses off for the camera to match you to the passport
FAIL I cant see to operate the bloody machine
I had that discussion at Heathrow - I was putting my passport in the wrong way around, and the guy said 'Look there's a picture of how it's supposed to go...' to which I replied 'How the **** am I supposed to be able to see that without my glasses on?'
Good to know I'm not the only one to have had this conversation!
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Post by waz-24-7 »

As of next April. Less than 12 months away and when EU passports will be forfeited, expect conveyance through ROC immigration and right of entry to change significantly.
Certainly and in addition, any identifiable link to the TRNC could likely result in all sorts of antagonizing behavior.
This would almost certainly also apply to newly "divorced" UK citizens traveling South from TRNC into ROC across the border.

I fear that the route into TRNC from UK will soon be restricted in the main to flights to ERCAN. An added consequence of this is price rises as demand on that route increases.

That is all of course dependent upon what the UK government ( if we have a meaningful one) decide to do upon an EU deal.

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waz-24-7 wrote: I fear that the route into TRNC from UK will soon be restricted in the main to flights to ERCAN. An added consequence of this is price rises as demand on that route increases.

That is all of course dependent upon what the UK government ( if we have a meaningful one) decide to do upon an EU deal.
How life works until the EU micro managed every aspect of life is something called business and competition.
If there was to be a problem and the airlines feeding into Larnaca lose too much business because now people are flying directly into Ercan they will lobby/bung the EU, who make African dictators look straight dealers, and all will be ok.
But keep project fear alive old son.
UK imports more than it exports, that is the biggest card we have.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote: If there was to be a problem and the airlines feeding into Larnaca lose too much business because now people are flying directly into Ercan they will lobby/bung the EU, who make African dictators look straight dealers, and all will be ok.
But keep project fear alive old son.
Making out that the EU in terms of corruption is worse than that of 'African dictators' is itself, imo, part of the leave project fear narrative that has been running non stop from pretty much the day we joined the EEC. There will be consequences in leaving the EU. There will be consequences if we leave without a deal. Reality will happen despite all the rhetoric on all sides.

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erol wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: If there was to be a problem and the airlines feeding into Larnaca lose too much business because now people are flying directly into Ercan they will lobby/bung the EU, who make African dictators look straight dealers, and all will be ok.
But keep project fear alive old son.
Making out that the EU in terms of corruption is worse than that of 'African dictators' is itself, imo, part of the leave project fear narrative that has been running non stop from pretty much the day we joined the EEC. There will be consequences in leaving the EU. There will be consequences if we leave without a deal. Reality will happen despite all the rhetoric on all sides.
The beauty of the EU is by producing so many rules and regulations every day they can slip in so many self serving ones.

Protocol (no 36) on the privileges and immunities of the European Communities (1965), continued in the Constitution Protocol 7 Article 2 states;
“In the territory of each member state and whatever their nationality, officials and other servants of the Communities shall . . . be immune from legal proceedings in respect of acts performed by them in their official capacity, including their words spoken or written. They shall continue to enjoy this immunity after they have ceased to hold office.”

It is possible for the EU Commission to remove this immunity in the case of a serious crime, but it’s difficult to find any cases where it has actually done this. In most corruption or fraud cases errant officials keep their jobs and pensions, though sometimes they are moved out of harm’s way to other EU departments. In the worst cases they are allowed to retire early while retaining their full pension and other EU benefits.
Being an MEP gives immunity from prosecution unless your colleagues vote to suspend your immunity, which they never do.

In several EU countries rich fraudsters have quickly ‘bought’ themselves seats as MEPs by making large contributions to local political parties. So as long as they maintain their Brussels job they could stick two fingers up at the police and at those they had defrauded. By the time they eventually left the European parliament, local statutes of limitations meant they could no longer be prosecuted for the crimes they perpetrated before decamping to Brussels.

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Being an MEP gives immunity from prosecution unless your colleagues vote to suspend your immunity, which they never do.
I beg to differ: Marine Le Pen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39141391

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote: The beauty of the EU is by producing so many rules and regulations every day they can slip in so many self serving ones.
Again stressing that this is my personal opinion only, this is for me exactly the kind 'fear mongering' that our membership of the EU has been subject too pretty much from the day we joined. No actual analysis or consideration of reality is necessary, or evidence - just stated as an obvious truth that the EU produces rules and regulations every day and many of them are 'self serving'.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Protocol (no 36) on the privileges .....
And so the fear mongering, imo , goes on. For me your whole characterisation of the immunity granted to MEP's , why they have it,, what it covers and for how long it is in effect is distorted amd misleading. In short it is for me a classic example of the kind of constant, largely unchallenged, fear mongering that those who do not like the UK being in the EU deal in, often whilst bemoaning the fear mongering of other. So some facts about the immunity of MEP's that did not make it into your 'summary'.
Immunity cannot be claimed when a Member is found in the act of committing an offence and shall not prevent the European Parliament from exercising its right to waive the immunity of one of its Members.
During the sessions of the European Parliament, its Members shall enjoy:
(a) in the territory of their own State, the immunities accorded to members of their parliament;
The immunises that UK MEP's get whilst in the UK are defined by our own national government / parliament, not the EU. Not quite how you portrayed the situation imo.

and so on
As a general rule, personal immunity, when applicable, only protects Members as long as they are in office; its aim is to ensure that the exercise of their mandate is not hindered by politically motivated accusations or convictions. Personal immunity is not limited to acts committed in the exercise of the functions, but extends to any act committed by the Member. However, such immunity is temporary: once the Member no longer performs the function, he/she may be subjected to prosecution and detention even for acts committed while in office, since this type of immunity is meant to protect the person, not the function, from politically motivated prosecutions. Moreover, as is explicitly stated in Article 9(3) PPI, and regardless of national laws, personal immunity never extends to cover cases in which a Member is caught in the act of committing the crime (in flagrante delicto), since in such cases the risk of a politically motivated prosecution is very limited if not absent. Additionally, the European Parliament has the right to waive the immunity and it generally does so save if, after examining the circumstances of the case, it finds that there are reasons to believe that the prosecution is politically motivated (so called fumus persecutionis: see below, at 4.2.3).13

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Mowgli597 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Being an MEP gives immunity from prosecution unless your colleagues vote to suspend your immunity, which they never do.
I beg to differ: Marine Le Pen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39141391
Well it's an example agreed but going after someone known for their anti-eu views is a little self serving.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Erol,

You are an avid researcher, research these names and their dealings with the EU and still tell me the EU isn't corrupt and self serving;

Marta Andreasen

Robert McCoy

Dorte Schmidt-Brown

Hans-Martin Tillack

Paul van Buitenen

Robert Dougal Watt

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Erol,

You are an avid researcher,....
As ever from my perspective you simply move the goalposts. My point was a simple one. In the very post you accused others of 'fear mongering' you yourself used gross exaggeration with regards to the degree of corruption in the EU and subsequently in matters of fact in regards to the immunity granted to MEP's. That was my point. Having challenged you on such I am sure you would like to move the goalposts to 'prove there is no corruption within the EU at all' but for me that was never claimed by anyone, let alone myself and is not relevant to the point I was making. Claiming levels of corruption in the EU are equivalent or greater than those in African dictatorships, is a gross distortion of reality imo, seemingly with the specific intent of trying to paint the EU as worse than reality shows - it is in short as far as I am concerned a classic example of 'fear mongering'. So too with the claim that the EU grants MEP's outrageous levels of immunity, when the reality is the bulk of such immunity is defined by national governments individually and not the EU centrally. Again a gross distortion and exaggeration of reality to create a distorted negative impression , for me just again another kind of 'fear mongering'. So just to be clear, my point was actually about my personal perception of your inherent apparent hypocrisy on such matters.

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erol wrote:
the reality is the bulk of such immunity is defined by national governments individually and not the EU centrally.
You'll need to point out where our MPs in Parliament are granted any immunity apart from Parliamentry privilege of course.

As for the scale of corruption and whether it is rhetoric to compare it to a corrupt African country.
Let's kick off with Marta Andreasen who was hired as the EU’s first proper chief accountant in 2002. She was the first properly qualified accountant to hold the post and managed to identify £170 million was missing or unaccounted for in the E.U. budget. She refused to ratify the European Commission accounts, meaning that the massive £143 billion per year budget was not accounted for in it’s entirety.
Andreasen went public with her concerns on 1 August 2002 and instead of the EU investigating the secret bank accounts and missing millions, they fired her.
Andreasen was fully suspended from her job by the Commission in May 2002 (for “violating Articles 12 and 21 of staff regulations; “failure to show sufficient loyalty and respect to E.U. bosses”).The E.U. immediately slapped her with a disciplinary charge for “defamation” and she was suspended from her job.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:You'll need to point out where our MPs in Parliament are granted any immunity apart from Parliamentry privilege of course.
The immunity granted to MEP's within their own countries is defined by national governments and not the EU and is the same as whatever their national MP's have. So if the UK does not grant any outrageous immunities to MP's then that is also true of the immunity that UK MEP's have whilst in the UK. Now go back and compare this with what you wrote about MEP's immunity, and tell me your original claims in this regard were not at all exaggerated or distorted.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:As for the scale of corruption ....
It is possible that you genuinely and sincerely believe that the EU as an institution is as or more corrupt than 'African dictators' but to be perfectly honest and frank I do not believe you genuinely and sincerely believe this at all. I could be wrong but my best guess is you know in reality this is not true but you continue to try and make out that the claim is not an exaggeration or distortion none the less.

Again I am talking about how people use distortion and exaggeration (fear mongering) themselves, whilst simultaneously accusing and berating others of 'fear mongering'. I do understand this is not the topic that interests you and you would rather talk about EU corruption and the like but that is not what I am talking about here.

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Post by tomsteel »

How has this topic got so far away from Larnaca Airport Immigration and passport control?

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Post by frontalman »

It's following a long established pattern, maalesef.

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote: I fear that the route into TRNC from UK will soon be restricted in the main to flights to ERCAN. An added consequence of this is price rises as demand on that route increases.

That is all of course dependent upon what the UK government ( if we have a meaningful one) decide to do upon an EU deal.
How life works until the EU micro managed every aspect of life is something called business and competition.
If there was to be a problem and the airlines feeding into Larnaca lose too much business because now people are flying directly into Ercan they will lobby/bung the EU, who make African dictators look straight dealers, and all will be ok.
But keep project fear alive old son.
UK imports more than it exports, that is the biggest card we have.
Hmmm,
The EU micro managing every aspect of life. Not at all sure how that works given the unhindered trade within the EU. About playing the import export card.
Its not a who can damage who the most competition. Its about peace , prosperity , co operation and mutual cultural and political understanding in an ever shrinking world. The UK currently seeks out from this European noble philosophy.

Regarding the airlines feeding into Larnaca. I think the traffic into ROC destined for the TRNC is rather too small to worry about for the said airlines. My point is that those residing , regularly visiting or investing in the TRNC can expect I much higher level of antagonism and indeed risk whilst visiting or transiting across and into the ROC. I need not explain again the reasons for this increased level of risk.

This is fact. No project fear. Have no fear if this makes no sense. Be aware and prepare if you respect the clear changes after next April.

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