Use of words / labels - a general discussion

[erol]

This thread is a continuation of a discussion that started in another thread, that I have 'moved' here to keep the other thread 'free' of the diverging discussion. The orginal thread that this one carries on from can be seen here http://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/v ... 29&t=43712

I think it is very important that things are labelled correctly. Handicapable is a new buzzword but obviously the disabled aren't in a position to have a clear opinion.

So labelling people with disabilities as 'unfortunates' is fine with you is it ? How about 'cripples' ? What about 'retard' or 'spaz' ?

As for your 'ironic' statement about people with disabilities themselves not having clear opinions, the article I linked to was produced by an organisation created by and run by young people with disabilities. They have a very well laid out opinion on such matters but that reality does not fit with your agenda does it, so better to portray it as being 'guardianistas' (without disabilities) who are saying these things even though that is so clearly and demonstrably not the truth or reality in this case of the use of the word 'unfortunate' in relation to people with disabilities.

I have never met a black person who objects to the word blackboard but met quite a few white liberal virtue signallers who will get mortally offended on their behalf.

For me that is a classic example of the kind of straw man argument put forward by those who have an agenda of 'anti leftism' (for want of a better word). No one , left or right , black or white has any problem with the word 'blackboard'. It is just a fictitious straw man argument.

I doubt that there are many English speaking black people however who are not aware of how within the English language the colour black is consistently associated with 'bad' and white with 'good', in the way red is associated with 'danger', and the historical connections to things like slavery and colonialism as to why in English 'black' is the colour for 'bad' and white is 'good'. Blackboard as a word to describe a board that is coloured black has no in built negative connotations. However phrases like 'black list' , or 'black ball' or 'black hat' and countless others are all built around the idea that 'black = bad'. Such connections between the colour black and the idea 'bad' do not exist in many other languages, they are the result of a history of slavery and colonialism and the idea of the racial superiority of the 'white man'. That is not an argument that expressions like 'black list' should be banned from usage but it is saying that we should understand the historical context behind why in our language black equates to bad.

Proscribing use of words by fiat is never a good idea and never produces the intended result in any case. However that does not mean that you can not and should not take personal responsibility in your choice of words. Accepting personal responsibility is not 'political correctness'.

I understand you have an agenda of portraying a 'reality' where why and how words change is the result of some secret cabal of 'guardinaistas and bearded sociology lecturers' sat in some darkened room plotting how they can interfere in other peoples lives but in my opinion that says way more about you than it does about any objective reality about the world we live in. Over my life time words like 'nigger','wog''paki','yid','kike','cripple','spaz'.'poofter' and countless others have reduced in their common every day usage by massive amounts. Not as the result of some secretive cabal of 'leftist' hell bent on controlling and dictating how everyone else lives by feigning fake outrage at issue they do not really care about. The usage of such words is the result of millions and millions and millions of individuals over generations making personal choices in the use of the words they chose to use or not use. It is not conspiracy it is an evolution rooted in personal choice and personal responsibility towards society in general by millions of 'ordinary' people.

To be honest from your posts here (but considerably less so in person I might add) you come across to me of having a huge chip on your shoulder about an imagined group of people with imaginary 'power' that is forcing everyone else to do things they do not want to do for no other reason that they get off on making others do what they want. I personally think such a world view is largely divorced from any sort of objective reality. In my view there are 'secret' groups of small amounts of people, with common agendas, that exercise hidden but real influence and power of all of our daily lives. However such groups imo are not the 'guardianistas' but a very different kind of entity entirely and I think every time you spout off about the 'guardianistas', to some degree or other they chuckle and smile at how such keeps any spotlight off them.

A leftie will ......

Do you want a serious discussion of the reality of what 'lefties' have been instrumental in achieving in the last hundred years or so, to the betterment of the vast majority of peoples lives ? Some how I do not think that is a discussion you have much interest in but I might be wrong ?

[jayceebee]

"No one , left or right , black or white has any problem with the word 'blackboard'. It is just a fictitious straw man argument."

In Zimbabwe, in the early 1980's the powers that be did! As expat teachers we had to refer to it as the "board", "chalkboard" or "whiteboard"!

[waddo]

Teaching the military in 2005 we were not allowed to use either white or black when referring to "Magi" boards! They had to be called MagiBoards - meaning that you only could use magic markers on them!

[erol]

"No one , left or right , black or white has any problem with the word 'blackboard'. It is just a fictitious straw man argument."

In Zimbabwe, in the early 1980's the powers that be did! As expat teachers we had to refer to it as the "board", "chalkboard" or "whiteboard"!

Well it would seem like , whatever 'powers that be' you may have been referring to back then, the word blackboard would still seem to be in common usage today, even in Zimbabwe. As evidence here is a link to a Zimbabwe based stationer that appears more than happy to sell a 'blackboard ruler'rather than a chalkboard ruler.

http://www.papyrus.co.zw/products/schol ... oard-ruler

[EnjoyingTheSun]

So labelling people with disabilities as 'unfortunates' is fine with you is it ? How about 'cripples' ? What about 'retard' or 'spaz' ?

Unfortunates isn’t a word I’d use but it didn’t give me palpatations in fact I didn’t really register it, but then I’m not looking to be offended all the time on someone’s behalf. Someone saying spaz would leap out more.
Let’s bounce this back do you as so many feign shock and horror when someone uses the word coloured when referring to black people? In the 70s coloured was the commonly used word, no offence was meant by it. As time went on people would reasonably point out that if you wanted to use a label coloured actually isn’t that descriptive as everyone is coloured.
But the left enjoy lumping someone using the word coloured as a bigoted as someone using the n word.
But if you do choose to leap onto your high horse answer me what the civil rights group the NAACP stands for and would you describe it as racist?

The article I linked to was produced by an organisation created by and run by young people with disabilities.

The RSPCA was created to look after animals but has got so politicised that animal welfare is almost a by-product these days. So well-meaning organisations do get hijacked
Lets’ be honest 99% of the phrases that they use as being outdated language were never used by anyone but the most bigoted. They are solving problems that didn’t really exist.
What is quite amusing is when people who profess to be colour blind or disability blind will spend an inordinate time twisting themselves in knots being over aware.

I doubt that there are many English speaking black people however who are not aware of how within the English language the colour black is consistently associated with 'bad' and white with 'good'……………………….

My school even 40 years ago was half black a quarter Asian and a quarter white. The last area I lived was Thornton Heath which I would guess was probably 80% black. I don’t have to guess, I know they actually don’t really give a toss and have better things to worry about than semantics.
But a sociology teacher from Hampstead can theorise about what makes black people tick by doing research I guess. It saves interacting with them.

I understand you have an agenda of portraying a 'reality' where why and how words change is the result of some secret cabal of 'guardinaistas and bearded sociology lecturers' sat in some darkened room plotting how they can interfere in other peoples lives but in my opinion that says way more about you than it does about any objective reality about the world we live in. Over my life time words like 'nigger','wog''paki','yid','kike','cripple','spaz'.'poofter' and countless others have reduced in their common every day usage by massive amounts. Not as the result of some secretive cabal of 'leftist' hell bent on controlling and dictating how everyone else lives by feigning fake outrage at issue they do not really care about. The usage of such words is the result of millions and millions and millions of individuals over generations making personal choices in the use of the words they chose to use or not use. It is not conspiracy it is an evolution rooted in personal choice and personal responsibility towards society in general by millions of 'ordinary' people.

Let’s talk about evolution.
When I started going to football matches in the early seventies there were a handful of black players and the racial abuse they used to get was horrendous.
On the terraces, as in life, there were and are some bigots but I believe that for most of the supporters the reason for the racial abuse was as simple and simple-minded as trying to put off an opposition player. Very often the opposition’s best player.
I remember being at Tottenham and listening to Garth Crooks getting awful abuse. Which obviously worked because he immediately scored. Eighteen months later Tottenham signed him and he was loved.
By the early 1980s, the Commission for Racial Equality and the FA decided that the problem of racism in football was too small to be worried about. Consequently, the players had to make the journey by themselves and in the face of relentless provocation they did so with great dignity and not a little panache. The thing is you can’t socially engineer people make the journey on their own.
Despite the rewriting/hijacking of history during the Battle of Cable Street the facists weren’t fought off by Jews helped by “local anarchist, communist and socialist groups” The facists were fought off by larey dockers who come to the assistance of their neighbours who they probably called yids or whatever because it was the right thing to do.

To be honest from your posts here (but considerably less so in person I might add) you come across to me of having a huge chip on your shoulder about an imagined group of people with imaginary 'power' that is forcing everyone else to do things they do not want to do for no other reason that they get off on making others do what they want. I personally think such a world view is largely divorced from any sort of objective reality.

In person you come over as far more based in the real world than you do posting on here.
The left seemed to go out of their way labelling ordinary people with concerns about immigration etc as racist and that white people are naturally racist. They hold up Europe as some utopia of tolerance. British people by and large are amongst the most tolerant people in the world. In the 2010 Election we had an economy in the toilet, the July 7th bombings and other outrages so perfect conditions for the far right to get votes. The Far Right’s vote didn’t go up one jot. In tolerant Europe the Far Right is on the rise. So when people look to label ordinary people racist there is a danger they think bugger it I’m not but might as well get hung for a sheep as a lamb and vote BNP.
The view that only white people can be racist is often put forward by people that have met 4 black people in their lives. Trust me they have as many prejudices as anyone. West Indians and Africans have a go at each other, amongst the West Indians they have small island big island prejudices. And do you know why? Because they are ordinary people.

Do you want a serious discussion of the reality of what 'lefties' have been instrumental in achieving in the last hundred years or so, to the betterment of the vast majority of peoples lives?

We can discuss the NHS and such like, Bevan was a great man. But he did come from mining stock eg the real world. You’ll have to educate me as to the achievements of the likes of Jack Straw who went from being the National Union of Student leader to a councillor. He was a barrister but he did more lecturing than trial work.
This idea that the left tax the rich who otherwise will keep all their money and then go off and save the world with it is a little tired.
The capitalist system is by no means perfect but it is the best we have.

[erol]

Teaching the military in 2005 we were not allowed to use either white or black when referring to "Magi" boards! They had to be called MagiBoards - meaning that you only could use magic markers on them!

Still happily;y using the term 'whiteboard' here though (2017)

https://www.army.mod.uk/media/3630/atrw ... report.pdf

[erol]

Unfortunates isn’t a word I’d use but it didn’t give me palpatations in fact I didn’t really register it, but then I’m not looking to be offended all the time on someone’s behalf.

Sure it did not leap out to you. However I do not see how you can deny the reality that an organisation created by and for young people with disabilities specifically and explicitly have listed the word "unfortunate" as one of the words THEY think should be taken out of your vocabulary when referring to disabled people. I found the evidence that shows this and presented it and yet still you are trying to make out that it is only me who has a problem with it because I am just looking to be offended on someone else's behalf, where as 'they' do not care. I have provided evidence that there are disabled people who do have a problem with the use of that word. Will you provide any evidence from an organisation that is made up of people with disabilities and advocates on the issue of disability who says explicitly that there is no problem with the use of that word in their opinion ?

The RSPCA was created to look after animals but has got so politicised that animal welfare is almost a by-product these days. So well-meaning organisations do get hijacked

You start out by saying that the only people who have an issues with the use of the word 'unfortunates' to generically describe people with disabilities are people like me 'feigning' a dislike for such a label, for some unknown perverse reason, and then when I provide evidence that it is not 'just me' but also disabled people themselves, you say 'ah but they have been hijacked'. So basically you can not lose can you. Because you did not or do have a problem with such a label , then anyone else who does, disabled or not., must either be insincerely expressing an issue with it or have been 'hijacked'. As a fan of Occam's razor, which I believe you are, I suggest a simpler alternative. There is an issue with using such a word in such a context and that you were unaware and indifferent to this and having been made aware prefer to deny that reality than acknowledge it.

Lets’ be honest 99% of the phrases that they use as being outdated language were never used by anyone but the most bigoted. They are solving problems that didn’t really exist.

That is just not true. Words like nigger, went from being normal everyday words that the bulk of people used, racist or not, to a very different status and meaning. That transition was not the result of bearded left wing sociology lecturers meeting up in dark rooms to plot how they could control normal peoples lives. It was the result of millions of ordinary people making personal choices.

I don’t have to guess, I know they actually don’t really give a toss and have better things to worry about than semantics.
But a sociology teacher from Hampstead can theorise about what makes black people tick by doing research I guess. It saves interacting with them.

All I hear is your usual homilies as an excuse as to why you do not need or need to provide any actual evidence in support of your views because you 'know' what other people think and feel about anything and everything, which in the case of black people you lived with and around happens to be exactly the same as what you personally think. I suggest if you were to actually ask any of these people directly, do they think the english language has an in built association with black equating to bad, that dates back to the racist past of slavery, colonialism and the supremacy of the white man, you may well find a range of views an opinions that are quite different from your convenient 'imaginings' as to what they about such issues.

Again you push this idea that it is only 'white leftist liberals' that acknowledged such issues, and they do so only because of some perverse desire to be outraged on some one else's behalf. It is simply not true. Some, if not almost all of the best critiques and analysis of the way words and use of words connects with concepts of institutionalised 'unconscious' racism in western societies like the UK and US and elsewhere in Europe, comes from black authors and academics and poets and 'coal miners'.

Let’s talk about evolution.

More homilies. I have little doubt that there is less racist abuse in football grounds today, be it directed at opposing players, opposing fans, or home player or fans. I also have little doubt that this is not the result of efforts by lefties sitting in hampstead that have never met a black person deciding they were going to force this to happen. As far as footballs governing bodies played a part in reducing the level of racist chanting in football, I believe this was them following the lead of the majority of ordinary normal people and not forcing such to do things against their will.

The thing is you can’t socially engineer people make the journey on their own.

Exactly and I could not agree more which is why I talk about 'personal choices' in this context. Yet you are the one preaching the mantra that some cabal of leftist is doing this, even though you also say that it can not be done in any case.

The left seemed to go out of their way labelling ordinary people with concerns about immigration etc as racist and that white people are naturally racist.

Nonsense. Not everyone who has concerns over immigration is racist. Not every racist is white. But every racist has 'concerns' over immigration.

It is just straw man after straw man with you. You set up proposition after proposition about what 'leftists' do and them proceed to knock them down without any seeming need to wonder if the proposition is actually true or not. The idea that the 'left' in general argues that all white people are naturally racists is just preposterous to me.

They hold up Europe as some utopia of tolerance.

The idea that the left in general holds up 'Europe' as a utopia of tolerance or any other sort of utopia is just preposterous to me. I can see no actual evidence that supports this claim.

Because they are ordinary people.

Sure everyone is an ordinary person - except for leftist guardianistas, who are only motivated and driven by the need to interfere with and control other peoples lives by feigning insincere outrage.

This idea that the left tax the rich who otherwise will keep all their money and then go off and save the world with it is a little tired.
The capitalist system is by no means perfect but it is the best we have.

The idea that some left wing lecturer has more hidden subversive unseen control and impact over the daily lives of ordinary people than say the Koch brothers do is to me laughable. You seem obsessed with the leftist lecturers and the 'hidden' power you think they have over our lives and yet appear at best uninterested in the Koch brothers and at worst an apologist for a system that gives them such ability. I find that strange myself if the issue is unelected people controlling your and every one else's lives in hidden and non transparent ways.

(ps not had to time to proof read this so please excuse the inevitable many errors in it)

[jayceebee]

"Well it would seem like , whatever 'powers that be' you may have been referring to back then...."

ZANU PF Party militants everywhere....very much in the ascendancy in those days....all teachers were "comrades".

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Erol,
I won’t quote whole chunks of your writing for brevity but if I do only select parts you will accuse me of avoiding one of one of the other lengthy paragraphs so let me try and cover this as follows.

Are they an organisation created by and for young people with disabilities? They quote themselves as “dedicated to breaking isolation and building community through supporting youth with disabilities to reach their full potential” Very worthy but it doesn’t necessarily make them disabled.

Yes they have “specifically and explicitly” have listed the word "unfortunate" as one of the words THEY think should be taken out of your vocabulary when referring to disabled people.
Let’s have a look at what’s hot and what’s not in the quoted list which by the way was what I was referring to as outdated language that was never used by anyone but the most bigoted. You leaping on nigger I will assume you misunderstanding me rather than accusing me of trying to justify a deliberately offensive word to try and prove a point. I note you totally body swerved the coloured/black segment I guess having to refer to the NAACP is bigoted or racist was a leap?
So back to the NYLN.
Obviously lot’s of words there that are undoubtedly offensive. Spaz is one. Personally I haven’t heard that since I was 13.
Physically Challenged is offensive but Physically Disabled is fine. Emotionally Disturbed is offensive but Emotionally Disabled is great. Are we trying to sort fly sh*t from pepper here? Or are disabled people really driven to tears when they are called physically challenged?
I’ll ignore the word survivor thing as a lovable Amercanism. Keith Richard downing two bottles of Jim Beam a day and injecting heroin is a survivor after all.

It is very hard keeping up I just got used to global warming when they realised earth actually wasn't warming anymore and now it's climate change. Is it ok to just call it the whether and naively speculate that it might have to do with that big yellow thing in the sky rather than too many people driving?

You keep accusing me of presenting straw man arguments then ask me to provide evidence from an organisation that is made up of people with disabilities and advocates on the issue of disability who says explicitly that there is no problem with the use of that word in their opinion?
Seriously? My point is most people don't give a toss. Give the disabled a budgetary choice between ramps or a study on who is offended by certain apparently innocuous words and I can guess the answer.

Yes you provided evidence from a people who may or may not be disabled themselves but you can’t accept that charities or pressure groups can be hijacked by groups with an agenda that reaches beyond what they were formed for. Anyway back on planet earth.

I don’t particularly care for the word unfortunate but it wasn’t a word that would make me say whoah steady. But hey there are disabled people on here let’s ask them, save you exhausting yourself virtue signalling.
I do still question if there is a big issue with the word. Likewise being called wheelchair bound instead of a wheelchair user.

You suggest I actually ask black people directly about language. Without going down the some of my best friends are route, I have. Not being the most PC person I do ask them if they find such and such offensive and the answer for the most part is they have never really thought about it and don’t give a toss. But hey I’m always up for meeting up and asking them with you if you like? Be good for you to actually meet some rather than just theorise.

Concepts of institutionalised ‘unconscious’ racism is a wonderful buzzword. I notice you didn’t pick up on my informing you about African versus West Indian or small island versus big island tensions.

No totally 100% wrong about football's governing bodies playing a part in reducing the level of racist chanting in football. When it existed they did zero. Now it isn’t a problem they are all over it of course.
No it stopped when teams had their own black players and even the most moronic could see the irony in racially abusing a black player on the other side. But go and find some study by some sociologist who has never been to a football match and you’ll no doubt find a different answer. Obviously don’t ask a football supporter who went to games in the era, you won’t get the answer you want.

So you don’t acknowledge that the far left likes to label people as racist? Ok

As for straw man arguments I seriously suggest you re-look at the definition.

I agree that every racist has problems with immigration it’s like every far left anti-Semite has a problem with Israel.

So you deny Leftist guardianistas are not in favour of more control, government or otherwise? OK

Anyway here is a video that amuses me greatly and sums it all up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs

[Keithcaley]

When I first spotted the title of this thread, my first thought was that it would be a wonderful excuse to post every pejorative word that I could think of, but was saddened to find that Erol had taken the initiative...

So, I'll just be lazy and repeat part of one of my posts from about 2 years ago: -

"...I worked for a while in the UK Midlands, heavily populated by immigrants of various persuasions from the Indian sub-Continent - not just Muslims, but Hindus, Buddhists & Sikhs as well, and I have yet to meet a single one of them who was offended by our 'National customs', or by our celebration of Religious holidays such as Christmas.

Which leads me on to this...

At the time, the local Council (Birmingham, I think) was expressing the view that Muslim shopkeepers would be offended by being required to sell National Lottery 'scratchcards' which bore a cartoon drawing of a pig...

I asked the Muslim owner/manager of my local 'mini-market' whether he was, in fact, offended by this.

He said "Look, I sell Bacon, Pork sausages, Pork pies and sausage rolls, because that's what people want to buy, I don't eat them because that is against my religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I am offended by others eating them, or that I am offended by selling them.

Why should I be offended by selling something which just has a picture of a pig on it? - I don't understand!"

This tends to make me think that the supposed 'politically correct' awareness campaigns are engineered by people who either -

1) Have no knowledge of the opinions of the minority whose feelings and sensibilities they are supposedly protecting or

2) Make up the scenarios in which people 'might' be offended in order to justify their own jobs or

3) Promulgate the impression that we are obliged to abandon our Traditions, with the deliberate intent of creating racial division and racial hatred.

It is of course, a well-established political tactic on the part of ruling parties (and others) to engender mistrust and hatred between sections of a population, on the basis of 'divide and conquer' - i.e. while they're fighting each other, they're not challenging 'our' positions of power...

In my experience, People, no matter what race, colour or religion' are just 'People' - and pretty much alike!

Just my opinion!"

[jayceebee]

"In my experience, People, no matter what race, colour or religion' are just 'People' - and pretty much alike!"

Hear, hear!

Having worked 40 years overseas in Africa and the Middle East, I can agree with that.

[erol]

Are they an organisation created by and for young people with disabilities? They quote themselves as “dedicated to breaking isolation and building community through supporting youth with disabilities to reach their full potential” Very worthy but it doesn’t necessarily make them disabled.

Kids As Self Advocates (KASA) is a project created by youth with disabilities for youth

Or are disabled people really driven to tears when they are called physically challenged?

Not the point. KASA (you know the project created by youth with disabilities, and not a group of left wing bearded liberals without disabilities) are not suggesting that words like 'unfortunate' are not appropriate words to use when describing people with disabilities, because when people do use that word it makes them cry.

Is it ok to just call it the whether and naively speculate that it might have to do with that big yellow thing in the sky rather than too many people driving?

Sure it is ok just as it is ok to speculate that the earth is flat if you want. Where it gets more problematic is when you argue that the reason anyone thinks that the earth is not flat is because left wing liberals hell bent on controlling everyone's lives has tricked them in to thinking the earth is round,

My point is most people don't give a toss.

Your point would seem to be that the only people who give a toss are left wing liberals who are not disabled and the reason they pretend to give a toss is because they see it as a means of controlling other peoples lives, which is there real agenda.

Give the disabled a budgetary choice between ramps or a study on who is offended by certain apparently innocuous words and I can guess the answer.

When society labels and sees disabled people as 'unfortunate', how much easier is it for them to consider the lack of access at a given location as also being 'unfortunate' ? Just a matter of 'bad luck'.

Yes you provided evidence from a people who may or may not be disabled themselves but you can’t accept that charities or pressure groups can be hijacked by groups with an agenda that reaches beyond what they were formed for. Anyway back on planet earth.

You make out that it is non disabled left wing liberals who are raising the issue and state they are doing so not because they care about the issue itself but because they are driven to try and control other people via such insincere concern. To which I point out, with evidence, that disabled people themselves are also raising exactly the same issue. Then you accuse me of being unable to accept that pressure groups can be hijacked. Sure they can be but what evidence do you have that this pressure groups has been so hijacked ? You already claim that it may not even be a group of disabled people even though it says explicitly that it is a project created by youth with disabilities. Then you imply it has been hijacked without any evidence other than it fits your narrative to suggest such. On the planet earth that I live on that all looks like an attempt at sophistry to try and hiode the paucity of your position.

I don’t particularly care for the word unfortunate

Why do you not care for it then ? Why would you not chose to use it as a generic label for people with disabilities ? All I did was point out to the self appointed champion of advocacy for disabled people on this forum that their choice of using that label was perhaps not consistent with the promotion of positive change on such issues. I do not think the word in such usage should be banned or prohibited. I do think that people in general and especially those with a specific interest in such issue should think about their own choices in such regard. You have already chosen to not use the word. I suggest that someone else might think about also not choosing to do so and I am branded a leftie and accused of only wanting to control other peoples lives.

I do still question if there is a big issue with the word.

You question if there is a 'big issue' but you argue as if there is no issue and that the only reason anyone might think there is any issue with the word is because they are a leftie seeking to control other peoples lives, whilst at the same time choosing to not use the word yourself.

But hey I’m always up for meeting up and asking them with you if you like? Be good for you to actually meet some rather than just theorise.

Tiresome. This idea that all your views and opinions are rooted in real world experience but mine are rooted in ivory tower theorising divorced from the real world. A constant theme of yours that no doubt is comfortable and convenient for you to believe but that I think does not really stand up under any sort of rational scrutiny.

Concepts of institutionalised ‘unconscious’ racism is a wonderful buzzword. I notice you didn’t pick up on my informing you about African versus West Indian or small island versus big island tensions.

I stated not all racists are white. Some things to me are so obvious they go without saying. Some things are also irrelevant to any point I am ,making and I tend to ignore those as well.

So you don’t acknowledge that the far left likes to label people as racist? Ok

I acknowledge that labelling something or someone as racist can be used as a tool to try and shut down debate and that this tool is used at times by people, on the right and the left. I acknowledge that using racist as such a tool to shut down debate is no different from how labelling someone or something as 'leftist' or a 'guardianista' can be used in exactly the same way and for exactly the same objective.

What I do not acknowledge is that because the label racism can be and is at times used in such a way by some that therefore the word racism no longer has any valid meaning and the unsaid but implied extension of that, that racism no longer exists.

I agree that every racist has problems with immigration it’s like every far left anti-Semite has a problem with Israel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/an ... 74846.html

So you deny Leftist guardianistas are not in favour of more control, government or otherwise? OK

I think that society finding consensus and agreement that some things do need to be 'controlled' and 'limited' is the basis of society. Do I think we need more control over say what kind of cladding materials can be used on tower blocks and not less ? Yes I do. Do I think there should be controls on employers in terms of who they employ and under what terms and conditions ? Yes I do ? Do I think everything and every aspect of peoples lives should be controlled ? No I do not.

For me the whole narrative that 'the left always wants more control and excessive control' and by extension the right does not, is actually more about shutting down valid debate about what should and does need control and why, than it is about encouraging such debate.

And despite your 'swerving' I still think if your agenda is understanding how tiny non representative groups of people exercise hidden control over everyone else's lives, then talking about the Koch brothers is more relevant and important as talking about the influence of 'liberal leftists'. However if the agenda is just to 'kick leftists' because of some personal prejudice then I can understand why the talk is only about 'liberal leftists' and their desire to control other people's lives.

[erol]

In my experience, People, no matter what race, colour or religion' are just 'People' - and pretty much alike!

Well apparently not. Apparently there is the great bulk and mass of ordinary people , just trying to get on with their lives and then there are 'leftist liberals' driven and consumed by an irresistible and overwhelming need to control and interfere in other peoples lives, not for monetary gain but just for the sheer pleasure of it.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

"...I worked for a while in the UK Midlands, heavily populated by immigrants of various persuasions from the Indian sub-Continent - not just Muslims, but Hindus, Buddhists & Sikhs as well, and I have yet to meet a single one of them who was offended by our 'National customs', or by our celebration of Religious holidays such as Christmas.

Which leads me on to this...

At the time, the local Council (Birmingham, I think) was expressing the view that Muslim shopkeepers would be offended by being required to sell National Lottery 'scratchcards' which bore a cartoon drawing of a pig...

I asked the Muslim owner/manager of my local 'mini-market' whether he was, in fact, offended by this.

He said "Look, I sell Bacon, Pork sausages, Pork pies and sausage rolls, because that's what people want to buy, I don't eat them because that is against my religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I am offended by others eating them, or that I am offended by selling them.

Why should I be offended by selling something which just has a picture of a pig on it? - I don't understand!"

100% correct.
Muslim's aren't meant to gamble but there is no casino out the TRNC or in London that could pay the bills without Muslim players. They have historically been the majority of their business.


We are all getting on a bit and can no doubt remember off licences and newsagents/corner shops? How many newsagents or corner shops sold alcohol when you were a kid, probably about zero?
Now my local corner shop sells a range of alcohol that would put Threshers to shame. He is Muslim and sells it because he want to earn money and bless him for that.

While working I was dragooned into going on a Human Resources course which is what snowflakes go into if they go into the business world. It's perfect for them as you don't have to actually produce results.
During the course we covered a case where a Muslim sued Tescos for making him move a crate of wine as it would mortally offend him. And he won. Obviously it was a huge surprise to him that Tesco sold alcohol and as a warehouse man he would be expected to move it or at least see it.
I would guess he used his pay out to buy a corner shop and sell alcohol.

So my point is, and there is one!
A minority of a minority will be offended. The vast majority won't give a toss either way and another minority of the minority aren't offended and will chance their arm.

This tends to make me think that the supposed 'politically correct' awareness campaigns are engineered by people who either -

1) Have no knowledge of the opinions of the minority whose feelings and sensibilities they are supposedly protecting or

2) Make up the scenarios in which people 'might' be offended in order to justify their own jobs or

3) Promulgate the impression that we are obliged to abandon our Traditions, with the deliberate intent of creating racial division and racial hatred.

I'd agree with all those and add one.
I think these people are good hearted and have a genuine desire to help but are useless, waste others time and energy on problems that aren't a priority or don't exist but are a problem that they can solve.
It's the flood and the sandbags again.

It's Mississippi in the 60s and black people couldn't vote so some very brave people risked their lives to try and change that. The NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, being at the forefront of that.

Had one of these snowflakes been involved he would have spent the whole budget and effort researching and bring up surveys and having meetings that the priority was to re-brand as black people find the word coloured offensive.

No the reality is a few do, a lot think it is strange as we are all coloured, and most don't care as they are more concerned with the burning crosses and being lynched.

It is of course, a well-established political tactic on the part of ruling parties (and others) to engender mistrust and hatred between sections of a population, on the basis of 'divide and conquer' - i.e. while they're fighting each other, they're not challenging 'our' positions of power...

100%.
Northern Ireland, a handful of Protestants have all the money and throw down a few crumbs to the poor Protestants to keep the poor Protestants and Catholics at each others throats.

[erol]

At the time, the local Council (Birmingham, I think) was expressing the view that Muslim shopkeepers would be offended by being required to sell National Lottery 'scratchcards' which bore a cartoon drawing of a pig...

So at some time someone in a local council said something silly ? Did this lead to anything ? Did they stop the selling of scratch cards with pigs on them ? Was anyone's life affected by someone in the council saying something silly ? Any shop keepers ? Any buyers of scratch cards ? Anyone's ?

Bear with me if you will.

Imagine I am a racist. That I believe that people of a different colour to me are actually lesser and inferior to me because of colour and that they should have different and lesser rights than me and be treated differently because of their colour. Imagine that I know that the great mass of ordinary people do not share this view and that attempts to argue this case openly with them will not convince them and if anything will have the opposite effect. Yet I still hope to achieve change that is in line with my racist beliefs. So what do I do ?

What I do is when someone, especially someone in 'power', says something silly like 'scratch cards with pigs on them are offensive to Muslim shop keepers that have to sell them', is seize on that, make every effort to take it out of all the context of it being someone saying something silly that ultimately had no effect on anyone in any case and exaggerate it. What I do is try and create an impression that if I speak out about such a silly statement, I am attacked and labelled as racist and use that as an argument that my issue is about 'free speech' and that the word racism has no meaning any more. These are the kinds of things that I would do,

Now this does not mean at all that when someone says something silly we should not say 'look that is plainly silly'. However what I think it does mean, if we are not racists, is that we have to be extremely cautious and careful around the actual reality of the silly thing said, who said it and to what degree it actually had any impact on real peoples lives. We need to be careful about such things because we should be aware that real genuine racists will seek to use and exploit any such instances to try and further their racist agendas under the guise of not being racist.

The number of cases of people saying 'silly things' or implementing 'silly ideas' in limited areas for limited periods of time is legion. However to me there is pretty much always a large measurable gap between the 'average persons' perceptions of how much actual impact any one of these silly things actually has and how much it really has in the every day real world. Within that gap between perception and reality the real genuine racists survive and thrive and seek to push forward their genuinely racist agendas by stealth.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Imagine I am a racist. That I believe that people of a different colour to me are actually lesser and inferior to me because of colour and that they should have different and lesser rights than me and be treated differently because of their colour. Imagine that I know that the great mass of ordinary people do not share this view and that attempts to argue this case openly with them will not convince them and if anything will have the opposite effect. Yet I still hope to achieve change that is in line with my racist beliefs. So what do I do ?

Imagine I am in power or seeking it.

Imagine I want more day to day control and to micro-manage peoples lives because I know better than them.

Imagine I don't really have solutions for any fundamental problems

Imagine there are lies damn lies and statitics.


Imagine there is a tiny amount of racists in the UK and nothing will ever diminish that number because they aren't wired up right.


Imagine even though at every general election the vote of the far right moves not a jot unlike in the rest of Europe that we want to leave because we are so intolerant.

Imagine that this is this column of fifth columnist fascists are thriving but somehow forget to vote anonymously every time an election comes around.


Imagine I live in the home counties. I've never met a black person but I know I love each and every one and know their hopes and fears. Because they are a minority and even though I can't actually say it out loud I unconsciously think they aren't capable of looking out for themselves and need me to help.


Imagine that I actually don't know how to solve real problems but I do care so I'll create a different problem and have a go at solving that.

[erol]

It's Mississippi in the 60s and black people couldn't vote so some very brave people risked their lives to try and change that. The NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, being at the forefront of that.

Had one of these snowflakes been involved he would have spent the whole budget and effort researching and bring up surveys and having meetings that the priority was to re-brand as black people find the word coloured offensive.

The brave people who risked their lives were both black and white. What united them was not colour but their abhorrence of prejudice. The subset of prejudice they resisted was race based. If one of the white people who risked their lives resisting prejudice back then were to post here, without you knowing of their background, I find it hard to imagine you would not be also calling them 'snowflakes' and 'guardinaistas' as well. Most if not all were firmly placed 'on the left' politically.

For me you espouse a form of prejudice here against 'leftist liberals' that is as real and palpable as the prejudice that the likes of Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon and Gerard Batten display towards followers of Islam. The 'target' is different but the mechanism is to me entirely the same. For me the generalisations, the exaggerations, the accusations based on apocryphal truism that are not even true - these are all indicative of a form of prejudice that to me is only really different from theirs in terms of target.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

For those who don't read The Guardian here is a link to their recruiting site for jobs in the NHS

https://jobs.theguardian.com/jobs/healt ... S#browsing

Here's a taste;

Independent Chair of the Joint Committee

• 15 Marylebone Road, London
• Remuneration £15,750; Time commitment circa two days a month
• NHS NW LONDON COLLABORATION OF CCGS
You will have the insight, tact and diplomacy to facilitate joint working across CCGs, to help us to achieve positive impacts on patient care.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clinical Director, NHS Pathways

• Leeds
• £95,951 - £129,589 per annum
• NHS DIGITAL
This is an exciting opportunity to influence and support the delivery of urgent care for patients accessing the NHS via multiple channels.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senior Policy and Programme Officer – NHS Liaison

• Central London
• £47,487 per annum
• GLA
An opportunity has arisen for a new member of staff to join the health team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NHS and Public Sector, Financial and Operational Restructuring Manager

• City of Bristol
• Competitive
• PwC
We’re looking for an experienced Manager to join our Business Recovery Services team in Bristol/Reading/Manchester/Birmingham.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
NHS and Public Sector, Financial and Operational Restructuring Manager

• Reading
• Competitive
• PwC
We’re looking for an experienced Manager to join our Business Recovery Services team in Bristol/Reading/Manchester/Birmingham.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

NHS and Public Sector, Financial and Operational Restructuring Manager

• Greater Manchester
• Competitive
• PwC
-----------------------------------------------------------------

We’re looking for an experienced Manager to join our Business Recovery Services team.
Policy Advisor

• London (Westminster)
• From £45,000 + generous benefits
• NHS PROVIDERS

-------------------------------------------------------------
Policy advisor sought for high profile health organisation, to help influence the national policy agenda on behalf of NHS trusts.
IGARD Independent Chair / Specialist Member / Lay Member

• Leeds / London
• Remuneration dependent on role
• NHS DIGITAL
NHS Digital is recruiting an independent Chair along with specialist and lay members to join IGARD, an independent advisory group.
--------------------------------------------------------

Head of Communications Network

• London
• £70206 - £85333 per annum, Benefits: £70,206 - £85,333
• NHS DIGITAL
Establish a communications business partnering team to work closely with NHS Digital programme areas to understand their communications needs.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Senior Research Analyst

• London (Westminster)
• £39,000 + generous benefits
• NHS PROVIDERS
Senior research analyst required for leading health membership organisation, to lead member survey programme & contribute to key research

-----------------------------------------------------------
HR Business Partner (Medical Staffing)

• Leeds
• £33,222 - £43,041 per annum
• NHS DIGITAL
We are looking for a HR Business Partner with experience of medical staffing to join our customer focused HR Business Partnering Team.

I wont go on but there are loads.
Now although I have no idea what these people do as there isn't much clue in their titles. I'm guessing they administer the others who we can't quite figure out what they do.
I'm sure if you get to the bottom of the page you might see an advert for a doctor or a nurse.


Thing is when someone tries to make any cuts to the NHS I assume the job is given to these people to implement it. So are you going to chop your job or your helpers job or your mates job are you going to;


"Tory cuts! There are 10,000 less nurses under the uncaring Tory Government"


I will now expect Erol to produce a Guardian survey that tells me that only 0.0003% of the NHS budget goes on management based on figures from the actual NHS.
In reality based on something knocked up by the guy in Leeds picking up a £100k "to influence and support the delivery of urgent care for patients accessing the NHS via multiple channels."

[erol]

Imagine that I actually don't know how to solve real problems but I do care so I'll create a different problem and have a go at solving that.

The ascribing of such traits solely to a whole group of people that you deem to be 'liberal leftists' or 'snowflakes' or the ascribing of such a trait to me personally, not because of anything I personally have actually done but simply because you place me in the group 'leftist' , is to me nothing more than a form of prejudice.

What is it that you think bodies like the IEA do ?

Being against 'woolly thinking', 'living in ivory towers', 'feigning concern to maintain political power' are all things that I am also against. When you start ascribing such things only to 'leftists' then you have, as far as I am concerned, moved in to the realm of prejudice, which is the antithesis of reason in my book.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

It's Mississippi in the 60s and black people couldn't vote so some very brave people risked their lives to try and change that. The NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, being at the forefront of that.

Had one of these snowflakes been involved he would have spent the whole budget and effort researching and bring up surveys and having meetings that the priority was to re-brand as black people find the word coloured offensive.

The brave people who risked their lives were both black and white. What united them was not colour but their abhorrence of prejudice. The subset of prejudice they resisted was race based. If one of the white people who risked their lives resisting prejudice back then were to post here, without you knowing of their background, I find it hard to imagine you would not be also calling them 'snowflakes' and 'guardinaistas' as well. Most if not all were firmly placed 'on the left' politically.

For me you espouse a form of prejudice here against 'leftist liberals' that is as real and palpable as the prejudice that the likes of Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon and Gerard Batten display towards followers of Islam. The 'target' is different but the mechanism is to me entirely the same. For me the generalisations, the exaggerations, the accusations based on apocryphal truism that are not even true - these are all indicative of a form of prejudice that to me is only really different from theirs in terms of target.

Nice try.
Mississippi Burning was based on one of the more famous incidents; the murder of James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner. One black lad and two white lads. Or more precisely two Jewish lads. Or is that an 'apocryphal truism?' Afterall a large proportion of the people helping out the civil rights movement were Jewish. Or is that a generalisation?
No surprise there really one minority who had suffered helping out another.
I would agree they were probably based on the left but those Zionists wouldn't be comfortable in the Labour Party today would they? Or is that an exaggeration?

And whilst I'm sure they didn't do it for gratitude let's have a look at what the likes of Louis Farrakhan say about Jews before you compare me to Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon and Gerard Batten.

You believe I have moved into the realms of prejudice I am still waiting for you to move into the realms of reality

[erol]

Nice try.

The NAACP’s founding members included white progressives Mary White Ovington, Henry Moskowitz, William English Walling and Oswald Garrison Villard, along with such African Americans as W.E.B. Du Bois, Ida Wells-Barnett, Archibald Grimke and Mary Church Terrell.

White progressives. Exactly the kind of people you rail against here on this forum with such passion and consistency as far as I can see ?

You believe I have moved into the realms of prejudice....

When you ascribe negative actions, behaviours and motivations to people and whole groups of people not based on what they have actually themselves done and do but simply because they are in your view part of a 'group' that you do not like, then what word is there to describe such behaviour other than prejudice ?

[erol]

For those who don't read The Guardian here is a link to their recruiting site for jobs in the NHS

https://jobs.theguardian.com/jobs/healt ... S#browsing

https://appointments.thetimes.co.uk/job ... -planning/

That first one could be right up your street

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The NAACP’s founding members included white progressives Mary White Ovington, Henry Moskowitz, William English Walling and Oswald Garrison Villard, along with such African Americans as W.E.B. Du Bois, Ida Wells-Barnett, Archibald Grimke and Mary Church Terrell.
White progressives. Exactly the kind of people you rail against here on this forum with such passion and consistency as far as I can see ?

Erol, you shouldn't have included Moskowitz he's a Zionist. I think the party is airbrushing Jews out of history you are not following Jeremy's policy But good work body swerving Goodman, Schwerner and Farrakan.

what word is there to describe such behaviour other than prejudice ?

You didn't answer about where these fifth columnist racists are thriving. Explain the clever tactic of not voting for the BNP?
Erol, you wouldn't know prejudice, real prejudice if it bit you on the arse so keep searching for unconcious prejudice and stay unconcious.

When you talk about unconscious prejudice would is be like when a Pakistani girl is born in England and doesn't get the exact same rights as a white Christian girl?
I find it difficult that she is not allowed the same educational opportunities as her brother. Can't marry who she chooses etc etc.
I wouldn't be able to be a feminist anti racist campaigner and square that circle or try to justify those actions.
I guess I'd ignore it too.

Or maybe I'm one of these sneaky fascists on the rise? I must remember one of these days to vote

[EnjoyingTheSun]

For those who don't read The Guardian here is a link to their recruiting site for jobs in the NHS

https://jobs.theguardian.com/jobs/healt ... S#browsing

https://appointments.thetimes.co.uk/job ... -planning/

That first one could be right up your street

Poacher turned gamekeeper eh?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/an ... 74846.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/an ... 74846.html

Sorry missed that Erol. Mark Steel? What do you want me to admit that the left have better comedians? Or is it a trap for me to quote Jim Davidson or Bernard Manning? :)

As for Steve Bannon anyone connected to Trump is an easy target as he is a buffoon but it wasn’t the right that got Trump in it was a protest vote against the liberal Democrats by the man in the street that got him in.

As for Mark Steel, Russell Brand can be very funny but would I want him as Home Secretary?
Who is the Shadow Home Secretary?
Oh yes, well we could look at Russell give him a try I guess.

Do you not think the Labour Party has a problem there? Criticism of Israel is one thing, paintings of hook nosed money lenders around a table being a criticism of Israel being heavy handed doesn’t wash.
Do I think Corbyn is anti-semetic? Probably not, but he is a professional contrarian which has led him to share a platform with some pretty dubious people and his party does have an anti-semetic problem to deny it is to have blinkers on.

[Ragged Robin]

:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call’d,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes


While you are all arguing semantics and politics you are missing the whole point. My original post (which unfortunately lit the blue paper and set Erol off) did not , in fact, describe "disabled" people as such as "unfortunate". If you read it carefully and without implying your own preconceived ideas, you will see that it referred to several group of people (including but not restricted to the "disabled" ) and described them as unfortunate because they were forced to live restricted lives (in some cases even house bound) because of the selfishness and greed of society.

Having said that I am myself "disabled", I spend 15 years in theUK responsible for the care of close relatives with serious and unpleasant disabiities and I have also spent several years as volunteer for a Charity for the severely disabled. I am not offended by being called "unfortunate" or even "crippled" because I am! I am offended by Erol's first post accusing me of offending the disabled.

What offends and upsets me even more if people waffling about labels ,, as as excuse to avoid doing or saying anything to enable "the disabled" and other people who have not been blessed with good fortunate to live independent,
gainful and useful lives just like the rest of the human race..

[Ragged Robin]

#For the benefit of those who have not read it, the following was my response to Erol's objection to the poor little innocent word "unfortunate"NB hhereI IS an error in the following: for "thread" please read "Forum" referringtothe disabled forum..

Message 8 of 9 in Discussion
Re: Disabled access
Postby Ragged Robin » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:37 pm

I do not approve, of Political Correctness, nor do I think I am in a minority, and I can see no disrespect in calling a gardening tool, a spade.

In fact I dislike the word "disabled" as it always makes me think of taking the rotor arm out of a car. People with handicaps are not necessarily disabled - they often are more able in many ways but some things are harder or take longer. I did not want this thread headed "disabled", but I was overruled and gazumped!!

I suggested this thread to help all the "unfortunates" who for one reason or another - particularly but not restricted to - the "disabled" - were excluded from normal activities, - for example the house ridden through lack of suitable transport, and those who are afraid to go out at night, and those who are too poor through not fault of their own.

Please I really do not want this thread to be spoiled by yet another Kibcom argument or Witch Hunt. If you want to discuss political correctness please start another thread.

If the mods are montoring this thread please could they help by ensuring appropriate posts appear on it. Cutting and pasting is not easy for me, particularly this weather, because of my own problems and I have spend time I can ill afford on it.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

What offends and upsets me even more if people waffling about labels ,, as as excuse to avoid doing or saying anything to enable "the disabled" and other people who have not been blessed with good fortunate to live independent,
gainful and useful lives just like the rest of the human race..

RR I do think you have missed the important point of what Erol is trying to achieve.
Once we have formed our focus groups, research groups, study groups and implementation groups we can finally find a label for you that we will be happy with.
After four years and a mere £10 million we do have finally have our brand.
Prevention Of Intentionally Negative Terms Labelling Emotionally Stricken Survivors
or Pointless for short.
Then we can obviously form a think tank.
The likes of you actually feeling you should have a say in it will only delay matters, we know what is best for you. I think you actually thinking being disabled gives you any more expertise than our co-ordinating community gender fluid liaison Chair is just arrogance.
He has seen My Left Foot three times so I think you’ll agree he knows what he is doing and he is an expert on what should offend you.
We have fully costed this and after filling all of these vital roles through The Guardian we should have enough money left in the pot for a couple of handrails.
As for you being someone who calls a gardening tool a spade I will overlook your unconscious racism on this one occasion.
Unless of course the government cuts our vital work in a bid to damage the name to be inserted community.

[jackvern]

Two major ego'S battling once again. Don't need it. Get together and talk amongst yourselves.

[elizabeth]

Two major ego'S battling once again. Don't need it. Get together and talk amongst yourselves.

My thoughts exactly, cover up your keyboards and get outside in the sunshine.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I think its unfair to criticise RR and Erol

[erol]

Do I think Corbyn is anti-semetic? Probably not, but he is a professional contrarian which has led him to share a platform with some pretty dubious people and his party does have an anti-semetic problem to deny it is to have blinkers on.

Imagine there is a tiny amount of [anti semites] in the UK and nothing will ever diminish that number because they aren't wired up right. Imagine even though at every general election the vote of the far right moves not a jot

Sorry what are you saying the problem here is ?

As far as my views on the issue of anti semitisim within the labour party today I do not think I could sum it up better than

a) there is antisemitism on the left, and that hasn’t been conclusively dealt with; b) Opponents of Corbyn have cynically exaggerated this for their own purpose; and c) Both things can be true at once, because as extraordinary as it seems, it’s possible for two different sets of people to both be talking Ooops.

As far as my views generally, antisemitism undoubtedly exists. I have no problem with the concept of Zionism, that there should be a nation and state that is predominately Jewish. I have no problem with the concept that the location of this state should where it is. I do have a problem with those people who believe that in the name of Zionism it is necessary and acceptable to oppress people who are not Jewish and in ways that they would never agree were necessary or acceptable if against Jews. Just as there are those who will and do use (abuse) the label 'racist' to try and silence other peoples non racist legitimate concerns about say immigration, something you insist is a tactic of the'left' and only the 'left', so to are there militant Zionist who will try and use the label antisemite to try and silence other peoples non antisemitic legitimate concerns about the degrees to which the state of Israel has and does oppress non Jews in the pursuit and protection of Zionism. Typically such people are not 'of the left' despite your world view that such tactics are inherently 'leftist'.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are some militant zionists in the UK Jewish community that see Jeremy Corbyn as too sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians and not sympathetic enough to the cause of Zionism and specifically Zionism achieved by any means. There is little doubt in my mind that they seek and hope to force Jeremy Corbyn position to shift in this regard. That they actively and with intent in pursuit of this objective do all that they can to create an impression that Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic, not because they genuinely believe he is, but because such is the best means of forcing him to shift his position to where they would prefer it to be.

Erol, you wouldn't know prejudice, real prejudice if it bit you on the arse so keep searching for unconcious prejudice and stay unconcious.

By this I take it to mean that you do not think I have ever personally been the subject of prejudice. Ignoring being constantly subject to your prejudice against some notion you have of 'liberal lefisits' and also not wanting to overstate things or exaggerate, that is just bollocks. I grew up in North London in the 70's as a 'mixed raced' child of a foreign non 'white British' father with a strange foreign sounding name. I certainly do have direct personal experience of prejudice and racism aimed at myself and at my father. This is not any claim to any great degree of such or personal suffering or any such thing. It is just a statement of fact forced from me by the claim that I 'wouldn't know prejudice, real prejudice if it bit you on the arse'.

As for 'unconscious' or 'institutionalised' prejudice, be it racial or prejudice against say people with disabilities, this does most certainly exists as far as I am concerned. That it is not the same as someone coming up to you on the street calling you a 'wog' and beating the crap out of you does not mean it does not exist. The denial of it's existence is akin to everyone believing they personally are not affected by advertising. Trillions of dollars a year are spent worldwide annually pushing the same basic message that 'things and the acquisition of them are the route to happiness'. The belief that this has no effect on individuals or society in general is naivety at its most profound. So to with the idea that institutionalised racism does not exist or affect individuals or society in general. Racism can be and is built into the structures of society and especially in societies that historically have been shaped and formed built from powerful racist ideas such as slavery and colonialism and imperialism. It can be and is built in to things like language. One of the best 'studies' of this kind of 'institutionalised' racism in the UK would be Gilroy's 'there ain't no black in the union jack'. Gilroy is not a white left wing liberal living in Hampstead that has never seen or interacted with a black person by the way.

[erol]

My original post (which unfortunately lit the blue paper and set Erol off) did not , in fact, describe "disabled" people as such as "unfortunate". If you read it carefully and without implying your own preconceived ideas, you will see that it referred to several group of people (including but not restricted to the "disabled" ) and described them as unfortunate because they were forced to live restricted lives (in some cases even house bound) because of the selfishness and greed of society.

verbatim

I have again copied above post to the Disabled forum so that all the info for the unfortunate is collated in one place

Sure, you are in the above clearly not describing people with disabilities as 'unfortunate' and just as clearly it is only my perversity that could lead to an impression that you were ?

Having said that I am myself "disabled",

From birth or later in life ?

What offends and upsets me even more if people waffling about labels ,,

So you find KASA's (Kids As Self Advocates (KASA) is a project created by youth with disabilities for youth.) piece on "Respectful Disability Language" offensive and upsetting do you ?

as as excuse to avoid doing or saying anything to enable "the disabled" and other people who have not been blessed with good fortunate to live independent, gainful and useful lives just like the rest of the human race..

So do explain to me how in the above you are not saying or suggesting that the bad luck of disability itself is what stops people with disabilities being able to live independent, gainful and useful lives just like the rest of the human race, rather than it being societies response or lack of it and attitude to disability that is the much bigger part in being able to live an independent gainful and useful life ?

Was Stephen Hawkin not blessed ? Were the very real restrictions he lived with really down to other people's greed and selfishness or where they the result of him having Lou Gehrig's disease ? Did his disability and bad luck mean he was unable to lead a gainful and useful life, like the rest of the human race ?

My advice to other disabled people would be, concentrate on things your disability doesn't prevent you doing well, and don't regret the things it interferes with. Don't be disabled in spirit as well as physically.

Disability is articulated as a struggle, an unnecessary burden that one must overcome to the soundtrack of a string crescendo. But disabled lives are multi-faceted - brimming with personality, pride, ambition, love, empathy, and wit.

When you hear the word 'disabled,' people immediately think about people who can't walk or talk or do everything that people take for granted. Now, I take nothing for granted. But I find the real disability is people who can't find joy in life and are bitter.

I use the term 'disabled people' quite deliberately, because I subscribe to what's called the social model of disability, which tells us that we are more disabled by the society that we live in than by our bodies and our diagnoses.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Erol so there isn't a worrying amount of anti-Semitism in the Labour party? It's a really simple question. Or you can bury your answer in oceans of rhetoric.

Or are there no anti-semites in the Labour party but it is a cynical attempt to court the potentially much larger vote of people who might be anti-Semitic.


As for Israel there is no doubt that they have been heavy handed but I guess if you are surrounded by people who seem to want to wipe you off the face of the earth I guess you might be a little jumpy.

I have every sympathy for The Palestinians but anyone who doesn't see they have been used as a propaganda tool is blind.
As Walid Shoebat said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?"

[erol]

Two major ego'S battling once again. Don't need it.

I do apologise, in my ego driven selfishness I was entirely unaware that my posting here and discussing things that are of interest to me with others who are also interested in the subject but with opposing views to mine some how obliged you to have to not just read such posts but also to have to reply to them with your comments about my and others ego's, actions which clearly you do not need. My bad.

Get together and talk amongst yourselves.

And if I would like to both discuss here and get together and talk about such things, is that really so outrageously impinging on you and your life and enjoyment of life that I should simply stop doing it here at your request ?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

From birth or later in life ?

Seriously? You have to qualify?


As for Stephen Hawking he overcome huge adversity but if we could ask him whether he felt it was a blessing to get his disease or unfortunate what do you think he'd say? Have an honest guess.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

One of the best 'studies' of this kind of 'institutionalised' racism in the UK would be Gilroy's 'there ain't no black in the union jack'. Gilroy is not a white left wing liberal living in Hampstead that has never seen or interacted with a black person by the way.

If you are talking about Paul Gilroy I don't think he has interacted with an earthling to be honest.

[erol]

Erol so there isn't a worrying amount of anti-Semitism in the Labour party? It's a really simple question. Or you can bury your answer in oceans of rhetoric.

Really was is unclear about "a) there is antisemitism on the left, and that hasn’t been conclusively dealt with;" ? Seems pretty clear and straight forward to me ?

I am NOT the one arguing that the levels of racism (or antisemitism) have stayed constant in the UK, as 'proven' by support for far right parties over time and that those levels are constant and just a function of a small set of people who are not 'wired up right'.

Or are there no anti-semites in the Labour party but it is a cynical attempt to court the potentially much larger vote of people who might be anti-Semitic.

Where do I say there are no antisemites in the Labour party ?

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

So I do not say there are no antisemites in the Labour party. I do say that there is antisemetism on the left (in the Labour party) and you then ask me if I think there are 'no antisemites' in the labour party and get upset when I talk about your use of straw man arguments ?

Yes there is antisemitism in the labour party. Yes it should be addressed.

Yes there are also those who seek to use accusations of antisemtisim to shut down debate (in the Labour party and elsewhere) they do not want about things that are NOT in fact antisemtic but can be unfairly portrayed as such. Exactly in the same way you accuse the 'left' of doing, and only the left, with accusations of racism.

Is that really such a hard concept to get your head around ?

As for Israel there is no doubt that they have been heavy handed but I guess if you are surrounded by people who seem to want to wipe you off the face of the earth I guess you might be a little jumpy.

As for the Greek Cypriots there is no doubt they have been in the 60's a bit heavy handed in regards to the Turkish Cypriot community in Cyprus but I guess if you are dealing with a non indigenous ethnic minority intent on thwarting the will and aspirations of the indigenous majority then you may get a little jumpy.

[erol]

As for Stephen Hawking he overcome huge adversity but if we could ask him whether he felt it was a blessing to get his disease or unfortunate what do you think he'd say? Have an honest guess.

When I turned 21, my expectations were reduced to zero. You probably know this already because there’s been a movie about it. It was important that I came to appreciate what I did have. Although I was unfortunate to get motor neurone disease, I’ve been very fortunate in almost everything else.

I think that Stephen Hawking did not see himself as being defined by being 'unfortunate' or 'limited or 'unable to live a gainful or useful life like the rest of the human race' nor do I imagine he would like the idea that others define him and who he was in such ways. Sure he was cursed with the bad luck of having a horrible disease but he was also blessed in many other ways and those things say much more about who he was than the singular thing he was cursed with.

If you are talking about Paul Gilroy I don't think he has interacted with an earthling to be honest.

Another common 'technique' of argument, oft used in conjunction with 'straw man', namely that of ad hominen

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons

Much easier to just dismiss Paul Gilroy as being detached from humanity than actually deal with or address any of the ideas or issues that he raises and details I guess ?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Where do I say there are no antisemites in the Labour party ?

When you come up with a 500 word essay it is a bit hard to see so you'll have to point it out.

I guess if you are dealing with a non indigenous ethnic minority intent on thwarting the will and aspirations of the indigenous majority then you may get a little jumpy.

You'll really have to come up with the usual propaganda to prove indignous or non indiginous.

You are talking about Palestininians right? Not Jordanians?

BTW before you start to do the whole apartheid state bit how many black or coloured members of parliament did apartheid South Africa have?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Much easier to just dismiss Paul Gilroy as being detached from humanity than actually deal with or address any of the ideas or issues that he raises and details I guess ?

Just to make sure I've got the right guy, the Gilroy that theorises that say the rioters in Croydon rather than taking the opportunity to lift a telly from Currys window while causing unrest because the police shot a drug dealer who just happened to leave his gun on the kitchen table that day were in fact freedom fighters making a statement about the racism that their grandparents had to put up with in the 50s?

That Paul Gilroy?


The one who can't explain why their grandparents who caught the undoubted racism were law abiding and Asian people who catch their fair share of racism are law abising?


That Paul Gilroy?

Remind me what you were saying about personal responsibility again?


The Paul Gilroy whose mother was an author and come from an academic family and pretty much stayed in academia?

The one who whilst black has far less in common with working class black kids than say Tommy Robinson?

Him?


Yeah he's an absolute sage him lol

It's a bit like Dianne Abbott saying being black has held her back.
Do you honestly think Dianne Abbott would make a living if she didn't have that card to play?

[erol]

You'll really have to come up with the usual propaganda to prove indignous or non indiginous.

I was just trying to highlight how both your description of the state of Israel's excesses as having 'been heavy handed but I guess' and your justification for this 'heavy handedness' appear from my perspective a bit 'slanted' shall we say ? Seems like my attempt failed. Still you can always write me off as an antisemite or detached from normal humanity or both if that is easier than addressing if 'heavy handed' really is a fair and balanced description of some of things that Israel has done to others in the name of Zionism.

BTW before you start to do the whole apartheid state bit .....

Before I start with the whole apartheid bit ?? Seems to me that it is someone other than me that is actively and out of the blue introducing the 'whole apartheid bit' ?

[erol]

Just to make sure I've got the right guy, the Gilroy that theorises,,,,

Given how much and often your characterisations of what I personally have said and am saying in this thread alone are so divorced from what I have actually said you will have to forgive me if I am sceptical about the degree which your characterisations as to what Mr Gilroy has said match the reality of what he has said.

The one who whilst black has far less in common with working class black kids than say Tommy Robinson?

You say these things as though they are obvious truths (like you say I would not know prejudice if it bit me in the ass) but just you saying them does not alone make them true I am afraid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gilroy

Tommy Robinson aka Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Just to make sure I've got the right guy, the Gilroy that theorises,,,,

Given how much and often your characterisations of what I personally have said and am saying in this thread alone are so divorced from what I have actually said you will have to forgive me if I am sceptical about the degree which your characterisations as to what Mr Gilroy has said match the reality of what he has said.

The one who whilst black has far less in common with working class black kids than say Tommy Robinson?

You say these things as though they are obvious truths (like you say I would not know prejudice if it bit me in the ass) but just you saying them does not alone make them true I am afraid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gilroy

Tommy Robinson aka Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

Has Gilroy not blamed criminality on things such as slavery colonialism etc?

Gilroy is black but to be brutally honest if he wasn’t he would have zero credibility because he is at best an average writer and historian.
Robinson is a bigot but he has more points of reference with black working class kids than someone bought up in the gilded cage of academia.

Gilroy reminds me of Chomsky another darling of the left. Wheel him out ‘look here is a Jew criticising Israel.’
The reality is if you check his research he is notorious for misquoting his sources. So without the Jewish card what is left?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

a fair and balanced description of some of things that Israel has done to others in the name of Zionism.

In the name of survival you mean?

Let’s say tomorrow Israel decides to allow every Palestinian/Jordanian or whatever they are this week refugees back and do everything asked of them?
How long do you think they’ll survive?
And the day after Palestine will merge into Jordan.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Two major ego'S battling once again. Don't need it.

I do apologise, in my ego driven selfishness I was entirely unaware that my posting here and discussing things that are of interest to me with others who are also interested in the subject but with opposing views to mine some how obliged you to have to not just read such posts but also to have to reply to them with your comments about my and others ego's, actions which clearly you do not need. My bad.

Get together and talk amongst yourselves.

And if I would like to both discuss here and get together and talk about such things, is that really so outrageously impinging on you and your life and enjoyment of life that I should simply stop doing it here at your request ?

I think you should stick up for Ragged Robin too they were having a go at her too

[Ragged Robin]

Thanks for your support Enjoyingthe sun, but they are always "having a go" at me, that is why I left the Forum but I though I could still post about dogs and "Disabled". Obviously I was wrong, and it was not safe to come back in the water!

However this is all just too complicated for me

CAn I just say a few things: (1) The fact that someone overcomes a handicap does not mean they are not unfortunate in having it in the first place, it means that they have above average courage, determination, intelligence in order to overcome the handicap. Probably also access to technological aids which are not available to the "man (oops or woman) in the street.

(2) Although the question was in itself not in accordance to Erol's avowed principals, I developed my handicaps (which in fact may be partly age related) late in life, over 60 years old. It is arguably more difficult for an older person to adjust, particularly if they have previously led an active life.

(3) True story that illustrates my point : in a previous existence, I was appointed by my employers to oversee and write a manual on the compliance of a new CCTV system with equal opportunities, and privacy legislation. The powers that be decided they would prove their compliance by using disabled persons to watch the cameras. Unfortunately the engineer had designed the facility (of which he was excessively proud), so that access to the tapes to change them involved crawling under the desk and reaching to the floor level deck. A small fully able bodied person had to be employed just so the tapes could be changed. A very simple example of someone not caring sufficiently to check the needs and abilities of the handicapped.

[Ragged Robin]

Just, hopefully to add a lighter note to this thread, ie these are jokes


I think the colour bar was American. The English are not really colour prejudiced. They are in fact impartial and dislike all other races (including Scots, Welsh and Irish) regardless their colour, ethnic origin or creed.


Why if black is not beautiful do so many pale coloured people stretch out semi naked on "sun loungers" frying in the fulll blast of the midday sun at some risk to their health , in order to turn themselves as dark as possible?

[erol]

Gilroy reminds me of Chomsky another darling of the left. Wheel him out ‘look here is a Jew criticising Israel.’
The reality is if you check his research he is notorious for misquoting his sources. So without the Jewish card what is left?

lol. Literally lol.

[jayceebee]

Why if black is not beautiful do so many pale coloured people stretch out semi naked on "sun loungers" frying in the fulll blast of the midday sun at some risk to their health , in order to turn themselves as dark as possible?

Yes....I've always wondered about that!