What is going on in London ?

[erol]

As Maggie once said.... The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money”

The problem with capitalism is that eventually the capitalist, the 0.01%, are the only ones left with any money. As I just said.

[turtle]

I think that's a made up stat Erol ?

Anyway better be careful what we write or maybe ANOTHER termination will be administered ?

[terry2366]

Did the London mayor not say that violence and terrorism is part and parcel of living in the capital city. Also was he not against stop and search powers and oppressing the youth and ethnic minority who it seems are the main perpetrators.

[erol]

Did the London mayor not say that violence and terrorism is part and parcel of living in the capital city.

Not really. What the democratically elected current mayor of London actually said was

“Part and parcel of living in a great global city is you’ve got to be prepared for these things, you’ve got to be vigilant, you’ve got to support the police doing an incredibly hard job. We must never accept terrorists being successful, we must never accept that terrorists can destroy our life or destroy the way we lead our lives.”

Also was he not against stop and search powers and oppressing the youth and ethnic minority who it seems are the main perpetrators.

Not really. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43678988

What 'Brigade' should we blame for the perpetuation of myths / inaccuracies like those above ? Not the 'PC Brigade' presumably ?

[erol]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... ent-crime/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 94891.html

[EnjoyingTheSun]

And in a democracy the option to vote again should never be prohibited for if it is then it is no longer a democracy. You can argue about 'how soon' but not imo about the principal that 'voting again' is as much a required part of democracy as voting in the first place is. We did vote in 1975 (after we were taken in to the EEC by a conservative government without a referendum).

I'm glad you mentioned that we were taken into the EEC without a vote. It wasn't more than a footnote in the Tory manifesto either. OK we vote again and we vote to leave again? Best of 5?

Somewhat patronising. I see a history of 'great men and women' who's commitment to ideals and willingness to make personal sacrifice in the name of those ideals has resulted in net positive legacies that have benefited and continue to benefit the human race. Not all 'from the left' but many. To name just a couple 'Mahatma Ghandi' and'Martin Luther King'. Too much 'of the left' for you perhaps ?

Has the penny dropped in the universities about cuddly Che Guevara, and Ghandi and MLK are now on the T shirts?
No both great men, I didn't realise the left were claiming them. Serious doubt on Ghandi and only J Edgar Hoover believe King was a communist. Can the right claim Mandela then for no apparent reason?

[erol]

I'm glad you mentioned that we were taken into the EEC without a vote. It wasn't more than a footnote in the Tory manifesto either. OK we vote again and we vote to leave again? Best of 5?

I am just suggesting, in response to your post that to me appeared to suggest otherwise, that the concept of 'voting again' is not in and off itself 'un or anti democratic' and is in fact an essential part of democracy.

Taken in by a Tory government (can I claim them 'for the right' ?) without a referendum. Offered a referendum 3 years later by a Labour government - imo more motivated by a desire to try and stop it tearing itself apart over the issue than any desire to 'give the public their say'.

Has the penny dropped in the universities about cuddly Che Guevara, and Ghandi and MLK are now on the T shirts?
No both great men, I didn't realise the left were claiming them. Serious doubt on Ghandi and only J Edgar Hoover believe King was a communist. Can the right claim Mandela then for no apparent reason?

Not so much 'claiming them for the left' as disputing the suggestion that idealism is 'good natured' but 'naive', that you seemed to me to ascribe as a trait fundamental 'to the left' as some kind of 'analysis' of the failings of 'the left'.

[erol]

and to try and steer things back on topic a bit

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 93686.html

[EnjoyingTheSun]

As Maggie once said.... The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money”

The problem with capitalism is that eventually the capitalist, the 0.01%, are the only ones left with any money. As I just said.

So the socialists will punish the rich by bringing in a 90% tax band spend the money and then be astonished when the rich disappear abroad leaving the middle classes to pay the bill.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I am just suggesting, in response to your post that to me appeared to suggest otherwise, that the concept of 'voting again' is not in and off itself 'un or anti democratic' and is in fact an essential part of democracy.

Taken in by a Tory government (can I claim them 'for the right' ?) without a referendum. Offered a referendum 3 years later by a Labour government - imo more motivated by a desire to try and stop it tearing itself apart over the issue than any desire to 'give the public their say'.

Totally agree with both points and would say that the public have been fooled that we were joining or remaining in a trade organisation when that was never the ultimate aim of the EEC or EU

[EnjoyingTheSun]

and to try and steer things back on topic a bit

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 93686.html

There is no doubt that both political parties have dropped the ball on this. Theresa May was an awful home secretary.
Always lovely to see Ms Abbott chipping in with some valid points. I'm sure many have been stabbed as a protest to perceived cuts in the NHS and maybe the Tories could put their money where their mouth is by giving her £300,000 or £80 million as she seems to have a very cost effective way of recruiting more police.

[turtle]

I'm glad you mentioned that we were taken into the EEC without a vote. It wasn't more than a footnote in the Tory manifesto either. OK we vote again and we vote to leave again? Best of 5?

I am just suggesting, in response to your post that to me appeared to suggest otherwise, that the concept of 'voting again' is not in and off itself 'un or anti democratic' and is in fact an essential part of democracy.

So are we saying if at a general election we don't like or care for the winning party we can campaign to have a re vote ?.... very undemocratic and dangerous to boot.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

So are we saying if at a general election we don't like or care for the winning party we can campaign to have a re vote ?.... very undemocratic and dangerous to boot.

Of course not, unless it's the wrong winning party

[erol]

So are we saying if at a general election we don't like or care for the winning party we can campaign to have a re vote ?.... very undemocratic and dangerous to boot.

No more (or less) than 'EnjoyingTheSun' was saying we should have one general election once and never vote again. Historically there have been re called general elections in very short spaces of time. Typically when the previous one led to a very close decision.

Anyway I think I am done as far as this thread / discussion goes. To much 'point scoring', 'sound bites' and 'playing to the audience' and not enough trying to understand the other person position, for my tastes, for which I am just a culpable as anyone else I guess. For me it is just not very enjoyable any more so probably best to just stop.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

No more (or less) than 'EnjoyingTheSun' was saying we should have one general election once and never vote again.

I never said that.
We know the only reason there was a referendum was that Cameron had to promise one because he feared he would lose votes to UKIP.
We had a vote, that had a turn out higher than we have managed for recent general election, and leave won.
Unlike in 1975 the remain disinformation didn't work.
From the following day to date remainers have tried every possible tactic to have a do-over.
If we had another vote and leave won again they would want another vote until they got the answer they wanted.

[turtle]

But surely the point of any debate is to get your point across and influence that debate... the fact that you have bailed because we won't or can't understand what goes on in your head is a bit defeatist if I may say so .
Very unlike you Erol.

[johnerebus]

The Youthful Softness of Skin

The youthful softness of your skin
Black brown or white
Dem garms you wear
Kool and tight
Link wid ur bredrin,
Link wid ur crew
Tonight not much to do
Chat bout da "ooops", da "ooops"
Den we go hunt

All vexed
For what he done
N you is da rude boy
N you got your toy
In your pocket
Time to unlock it

Him turf is near
You walk, no mission
Gwan taken your position
No chattin "ooops"
Gonna do da hit

Dissed you
Last time round
Dis time
He gonna hit da ground
Coz yous "ooops" hard
N your almost at him yard

Your blud don't know
Where you go
Or what you do
Your daddy left a long time ago
You are da manny man
Don't give a damny damn
Bout nuvver life now

Yeh you is da baddy man
N da goodie
Da rudey, rude boy
Wid da blingy bling hoodie

Your bredrin toy in your hand
Shiny n bright
To turn off his light
Da blade will easily go in
The youthful softness
Of his skin.


JR Esentepe, Cyprus 2012

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Well we seem to be getting a grip on it, I doubt whether this lad will do it a third time!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -jail.html

Sorry it's a bit late I've been reading The Guardian lately which surprisingly didn't seem to catch the story.
Maybe it is fake news?

[ttoli]

Erol , You have an amazing ability to speak lots but say nothing, one of the main reasons that I have stayed off this forum of late

[ttoli]

Well we seem to be getting a grip on it, I doubt whether this lad will do it a third time!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -jail.html

Sorry it's a bit late I've been reading The Guardian lately which surprisingly didn't seem to catch the story.
Maybe it is fake news?

Shall I get my popcorn ??

[ttoli]

Well we seem to be getting a grip on it, I doubt whether this lad will do it a third time!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -jail.html

Sorry it's a bit late I've been reading The Guardian lately which surprisingly didn't seem to catch the story.
Maybe it is fake news?

Maybe the Judge is a Guardian reader too and also devoid of reality ?

[erol]

Sorry it's a bit late I've been reading The Guardian lately which surprisingly didn't seem to catch the story.
Maybe it is fake news?

You often see and do not see what you want to see and not see.

https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/new ... ared-jail/

no sign of the suspended sentence verdict making the Telegraph that I can find though. So reported in the Guardian local edition and no mention in the Telegraph. Maybe it is fake news.

As for the speculation that the Judge is Guardian reader and the implied correlation between reading the Guardian and therefore being devoid of reality. ill leave the name calling, rooted in prejudice, to those who specialise in it and resit the temptation to suggest such is a common trait of those 'on the right'.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Sorry it's a bit late I've been reading The Guardian lately which surprisingly didn't seem to catch the story.
Maybe it is fake news?

You often see and do not see what you want to see and not see.

https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/new ... ared-jail/

Nothing to do with The Guardian apart from sharing part of the name. The company also owns The Insurance Times which has nothing to do with Murdoch.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

no mention in the Telegraph

Just this one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 ... errifying/

[Soner]

I had seen this on the news. I believe it was said that his sentence had been suspended because he had been kidnapped a few weeks prior to the incident. Odd.
Here is the video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHaCD6ZL4ds

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I believe it was said that his sentence had been suspended because he had been kidnapped a few weeks prior to the incident.

Yes he got roughed up, sounds like a drug deal gone wrong. You couldn't make it up.

I do wonder if the likes of this judge are fifth columnists out to destabilise the country.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

As for the speculation that the Judge is Guardian reader and the implied correlation between reading the Guardian and therefore being devoid of reality. ill leave the name calling, rooted in prejudice, to those who specialise in it and resit the temptation to suggest such is a common trait of those 'on the right'.

Made no speculation that the judge was a Guardian reader I just pointed out that a story that was picked up in pretty much all the other papers in a big way didn't even get a mention in The Guardian. I think they led with a story on breast implants, so obviously had more news than they knew what to do with.

I'm not saying Guardian readers are in general devoid of reality but do suggest that their paper chooses to insulate their readers from the reality of life?

[LizA]

Inside The Criminal Mind

I am pretty sure that the man who has the answers to all your responsible questions is Stanton E Samenow, Ph.D.
Expert witness Dr. Stanton E Samenow’s groundbreaking book offers readers an illuminating window into the workings of the criminal mind and a revolutionary approach to “habilitation”. He uses his vast 40 years of experience as a clinical psychologist, a researcher, clinician, consultant and expert witness specializing in criminal behaviour. Has been appointed to three presidential task forces on law enforcement, victims’ rights, and a drug-free America.
He explains the THOUGHT PATTERNS of those who commit the crimes, and illicit activities, we are most concerned with in the new millennium. The fields of criminal behaviour have expanded, and he uses the latest genetic and biological research into whether some people are “wired” to become criminals. He stresses how it is truly vital to know WHO the criminal is and how he or she THINKS DIFFERENTLY. Only when equipped with that crucial understanding can we reach reasonable, compassionate, and effective solutions.
“For decades, the prevailing conventional wisdom about criminality has regarded the offender as a victim of forces over which he has little or no control. Virtually everything imaginable has been identified as a CAUSE of criminal behaviour, including poverty, bad parenting, peer pressure, violence in the media, and various types of mental illness. Contrary to what we initially believed, we learned these individuals were NOT haplessly molded by their environment. NONE of the widely accepted causes of crime withstood scrutiny. In addition, the offenders with whom we were working exploited our search for causes to offer even more excuses for their crimes.
Once we extricated ourselves from the miasma of searching for the “causes” of criminal behaviour, we were able to develop a detailed understanding of HOW criminals think in ALL aspects of life, and to develop a process to help SOME (not many do actually change – stress mine).
Behaviour is a product of THINKING, and so it is incumbent upon anyone formulating policy or working with offenders to UNDERSTAND HOW CRIMINALS THINK.
I challenged the almost sacred theories about WHAT causes criminal behaviour and, further, asserted that a “criminal personality” DOES in fact exist.
There seemed to be a difference of opinion between armchair theorists with little or no face-to-face contact with criminals and those who INTERACTED DAILY with offenders. The latter group – correctional officers, counsellors, law enforcement officials, and psychologists – embraced our work because it was in line with what they encountered every day on the job, and because it provided insights that helped them do their work more effectively.
You will come to understand in detail the THOUGHT PROCESSES and TACTICS common offenders, regardless of their background or the crimes for which they are arrested.
Human nature does not change, thus the criminal mind has not changed. However, a constantly changing society provides new avenues for the criminal mind to express itself.
You will see that the thinking processes were extremely similar in a young mand who came from a wealthy family and a youth who grew up in a chaotic inner-city home. You will see a similarity in thinking patterns between white collar criminals who commit multi-million dollar crimes and street thugs who threaten an elderly person at knife point in order to steal twenty dollars.
I have added a chapter on sex in the life of the criminal. The pursuit of sex and the commission of sex offences have little to do with sexual fulfilment. Rather, through sexual activity the criminal exercises POWER, nurtures his ego, and confirms his perception that he is irresistible. This concept is important to understanding the mentality of clergymen, coaches, counsellors, and educators who MANIPULATE others to gain their trust and then exploit the positions to sexually prey upon children.
The criminal simmers with ANGER because people to not satisfy HIS expectations, They fail to confirm HIS perception of himself as POWERFUL, UNIQUE, AND SUPERIOR. What most of us find to be routine annoyances, the criminal PERSONALIZES AS THREATS to his entire self-image. A chapter is devoted to discussing ANGER, that, in a criminal, is like a cancer, metastasizing so that ANYONE OR ANYTHING IN HIS PATH CAN BECOME A TARGET.
No matter how much physical, financial, or emotional damage he causes, THE CRIMINAL BELIEVES HE IS A GOOD PERSON. Maudlin sentiment and savage brutality reside side-by-side within the same individual. “I can change from tears to ice and back again” – a violent predator. It is important to understand HOW a criminal fortifies his good opinion f himself so that he can do a kind deed for someone and then, shortly thereafter, wreak havoc. The criminal’s view of himself as a decent person constitutes a major barrier to change. Such offenders are skilled at deception and do not want others to know who they are. They generally do not reveal their intentions.
Acquittals due to a successful insanity case are rare, and there is good reason for this. There is also a widely held perception that seemingly responsible, level-headed people are pushed by stressful circumstances to a point where they “snap” and commit a crime that is completely out of character. I have NEVER found this explanation to be accurate, and you’ll see why.
Whether the carnage occurs abroad or at home, some acts of terrorism (not the false flag ones), should be viewed in the context of people who embrace causes and utilize them as vehicles for the expression of an already existing criminal personality. “Politically radicalized” – it is essential to consider the PRE-EXISTING personalities of those who place themselves in a position to be drawn into this process, then commit acts of terror.
A discussion of the thinking and behaviour of offenders as they serve time in detention and correctional facilities will provide a vivid picture of what employees of such facilities contend with every day when they arrive at work.
The conventional wisdom about causes still guides the efforts of many who craft policies to combat crime, Policy makers waste billions of dollars as they naively seek to combat criminal behaviour by eradicating its so-called “root causes”.
Programmes that employ traditional psychological approaches remain unsuccessful. For example “anger management” programmes are widely used in efforts to help offenders change, Such efforts are doomed, in that they actually legitimize anger. I shall propose an alternative approach.
Numerous facilities have adopted aspects of the approach that Dr Yochelson and I developed decades ago. This process entails helping offenders identify “errors” in their THINKING, come to terms with the destructive consequences of that thinking, then learn and implement corrective concepts.
With increasing budgetary constraints, resources directed toward programmes for change in America’s correctional facilities have become very limited. Nonetheless, it is still true that almost every man, woman, and child locked up today – with the relatively FEW exceptions of those serving life sentances without parole or on death row – WILL at some point be released onto the streets of America.
While a SMALL number MAY change on their own after having experienced the loss of their freedom, MOST will REMAIN UNCHANGED, with many returning to prison.
As we learn more about the criminal mind, we shall be in a better position to help some offenders change so as to live productive and responsible lives.
The chapter “Parents Don’t Turn Children into Criminals” introduces the thinking patters and tactics of individuals who, BEFORE reaching adolescence, grow increasingly irresponsible and commit crimes. (With total disregard for whatever parents they have!). Later chapters reveal thinking patterns in adults that become habitual and result in massive injury to other human beings.
It is also essential to understand the mental makeup of individuals with a criminal personality. One who LIES as a way of life. The criminal lies to cover his tracks (he has a great deal to conceal) and get out of a jam that he has created for himself as special and powerful, as self-image he fortifies every time he succeeds at deceiving others. Criminals do not suffer regret over the harm they have done. They are uncompromising. In pursuing an objective, they are heedless as to the collateral effects of their behaviour. They view other people as pawns to manipulate. ANY MEANS to achieve a desired end is acceptable.
An offender commented in all seriousness to his probation officer,
“This empathy thing; what’s in it for me?”
The criminal simmers with anger throughout his life, he is infuriated because people do not conform to shat HE wants, and he is unable to control them.
People ignore the fact that most youths from dysfunctional families do NOT join gangs, and that the drug dealer’s lack of education and job skills is a PERSONAL failure, NOT a societal one. In many circles, the criminal is seen as a victim, not a VICTIMAZER.
It is absurd to equate the rare small lie of the responsible person with the gigantic network of lies of the criminal. Equally absurd is to equate a child’s pilferage of a small toy with a delinquent’s stealing practically everything that isn’t bolted down. Both may desire wealth, but only ONE will work steadily and honestly to acquire it. The criminal believes that he is entitled to it and grabs it any way he can, not caring whom he injures, and then wants more.
If a man, woman, or child is extreme in ALL the characteristics I am describing – self-centered, controlling, dishonest, irresponsible, and callout – the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The result is a human being who holds a radically different view of him/herself and the world than does a person who lives a basically responsible life. That individual has a criminal personality. Life is a one-way street – MY WAY.
And above is just the tip of the iceberg!! Far more info in the book including methods of dealing with it!

[LizA]

Need i say more? See my above post!!

A killer who murdered three young children and impaled their bodies on railings is to be released from jail after he was deemed no longer "a significant risk".

David McGreavy, 67, battered to death a nine-month-old baby, strangled her four-year-old brother and cut the throat of their sister, two.


He also mutilated their bodies with a pick axe before impaling them on a neighbour’s spiked garden railings.

But a three-member Parole Board has decided McGreavy, dubbed the "Monster of Worcester", is safe for release, according to The Sun .

The children’s furious mum Elsie Urry said: “I was told he’d never go free.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... HYdq-42qEM

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Great posts Lisa and 100% on the money.

I'm no scientist but have known the odd villain and know that for some it isn't even that they are wired up wrong. It is risk versus reward. If the rewards are substantial enough and the risks are minimal then their moral code is all that stops them from being a criminal.

If I was to say to a person I can pretty much guarantee that out of every time you steal a £10 item from a supermarket you have a 1 in a 100 chance of getting caught I'm sure some might be interested.

If I was to then say that on that time you got caught you would be fined £50 then a criminal who is a business person like any other would run the numbers. "I have a pretty good chance of getting £1000 before I'm stopped and worse case scenario I get charged £50. It's a no brainer."


As for moral codes some will say I would never steal no matter what the circumstances I would say what if you child or grandchild needed a life saving operation which costs £50,000 which you don't have and can't get. What if someone offered you a sure fire criminal way of raising the £50,000 but there is a good chance of getting caught and you will get 30 years. Would you do it? Would you totally dismiss it without giving it any thought?


So when people say there is lots of evidence that tough sentences and tough prisons don't discourage crime take it with a pinch of salt.

When they say tough policing will impinge on people's freedom ask how free is the old lady on the top story of a high rise who is too frightened to go to the shops.

Anyone up for a bet that this lad will be caught again within the next two years carrying a knife? Assuming he isn't killed by another gang of course.
Anyone can choose the stakes and I'd be happy to give you any odds you wish.

[Hedge-fund]

I'll have a pound at 1 million to one please.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I'll have a pound at 1 million to one please.

lol it's £1 in the bank.
That reminds me of a time when someone offered 1000 to 1 on Frank Bruno beating Mike Tyson in their first fight.

I said i'll have a tenner to which he said surely you don't think Bruno has a chance? I said no I don't think he'll last beyond round one but for £10 it will be fun watching you sweat for a couple of minutes.

[Hedge-fund]

In 2009 when the world markets were capitulating, during a very busy day I made a reckless statement to my traders that if the FTSE future traded down to 3500 I would eat my weight in horse "ooops".

I think every trader in the room hit their sell buttons and it dived down to just poke through it.

I managed to negotiate it down to a spoonful which I microwaved to a powder and then dissolved in coffee.