Radical measures proposed

[13roman58]

At the health ministry meeting some radical proposals have been put forward up to 1st October.
Can someone post the link from local press as I don't know how and I'm unsure if they are just proposals or actually happening.
Kibris Gazette.

[alphamike]

The health ministry meeting is ongoing at the moment, reported to have started at 3pm. What is being said in the local newspapers is recommendations from various people, but we won't know until the health ministry releases a statement after the meeting is concluded. Better to deal with facts than what might or might not happen.
Anyone can read the news and opinions at https://www.kibrisgazetesi.com/kibris

[13roman58]

My reading is that the experts have unanimously agreed proposals to put forward to the prime minister.

[erol]

https://cyprus-mail.com/2020/09/07/coro ... -increase/

[alphamike]

My reading is that the experts have unanimously agreed proposals to put forward to the prime minister.

Fair enough, but they are just proposals and not fact at the moment. We should find out later today what will be happening.

[alphamike]

Here's a more up to date news report http://www.yeniduzen.com/kurul-toplanti ... 31190h.htm

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Just because a knee jerk overreaction that doesn't have either joined up thinking or an attainable exit strategy doesn't make any sense it doesn't mean it wont happen.
What I would be interested is obviously with a fast moving crisis with the best will in the world it was difficult to be fully prepared with PPE and the like.

The lock down was never going to stop covid but was there to ensure the health services didn't get overwhelmed and to buy time. When the lock down ended did the governments use the time preparing for a potential second wave or did they just think 'phew glad that's over' and sit back?

[erol]

Just because a knee jerk overreaction that doesn't have either joined up thinking or an attainable exit strategy doesn't make any sense it doesn't mean it wont happen.

What would you do if you were in charge in the face of rising number of infections, state hospital at near capacity and health care workers talking of already being at the point of exhaustion ?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Just because a knee jerk overreaction that doesn't have either joined up thinking or an attainable exit strategy doesn't make any sense it doesn't mean it wont happen.

What would you do if you were in charge in the face of rising number of infections, state hospital at near capacity and health care workers talking of already being at the point of exhaustion ?

I edited and added this bit. The lock down was never going to stop covid but was there to ensure the health services didn't get overwhelmed and to buy time. When the lock down ended did the governments use the time preparing for a potential second wave or did they just think 'phew glad that's over' and sit back?
Personally the only attainable way really was the Swedish way but with a lack of joined up thinking they didn't close the care homes. Had they have done that then I think they would be in good shape.
You can point to the South Korea model but that isn't attainable imo so pointless discussing it. The South Koreans are a very compliant obedient people, if you said to them tomorrow you have to wear a photo ID on your jacket then that's what they will do. Won't happen in the UK.

[Sultan]

Lots of opinion and very little by way of indisputable facts!

[erol]

Just because a knee jerk overreaction that doesn't have either joined up thinking or an attainable exit strategy doesn't make any sense it doesn't mean it wont happen.

What would you do if you were in charge in the face of rising number of infections, state hospital at near capacity and health care workers talking of already being at the point of exhaustion ?

I edited and added this bit. The lock down was never going to stop covid but was there to ensure the health services didn't get overwhelmed and to buy time. When the lock down ended did the governments use the time preparing for a potential second wave or did they just think 'phew glad that's over' and sit back?
Personally the only attainable way really was the Swedish way but with a lack of joined up thinking they didn't close the care homes. Had they have done that then I think they would be in good shape.
You can point to the South Korea model but that isn't attainable imo so pointless discussing it. The South Koreans are a very compliant obedient people, if you said to them tomorrow you have to wear a photo ID on your jacket then that's what they will do. Won't happen in the UK.

So right now, today, here in the TRNC, if you were in charge, in the face of rising number of infections, state hospital at near capacity and health care workers talking of already being at the point of exhaustion, you would implement the same level of lockdown that Sweden has been using from day one and just stick with that ?

[erol]

Personally the only attainable way really was the Swedish way but with a lack of joined up thinking they didn't close the care homes. Had they have done that then I think they would be in good shape.
You can point to the South Korea model but that isn't attainable imo so pointless discussing it. The South Koreans are a very compliant obedient people, if you said to them tomorrow you have to wear a photo ID on your jacket then that's what they will do. Won't happen in the UK.

Personally if I am looking for a 'to date' exemplar national responses to the virus, I would be looking at NZ before Sweden, given that to date it has a deaths per head of population from covid over a hundred times lower than Sweden to date and the negative impact to date in terms of GDP growth is no worse than Sweden and may well be less (official q2 stats not out yet for NZ).

Then again I have not turned the whole exercise in to a (false) binary 'lockdown' or 'no lockdown' political football.

[wanderer]

Proposals
https://www.kibrisgazetesi.com/kibris/o ... 95779.html
Reasons
https://www.lgcnews.com/medical-staff-e ... -19-cases/

[karmels]

I live opposite the Girne football training ground. A lot of players turned up to train but a meeting was held then they all left. I am not saying covid rules was the problem but you can make your own mind up.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

So right now, today, here in the TRNC, if you were in charge, in the face of rising number of infections, state hospital at near capacity and health care workers talking of already being at the point of exhaustion, you would implement the same level of lockdown that Sweden has been using from day one and just stick with that ?

Personally I would have avoided a total lock down at all costs.
That said once the data was in which pretty early highlighted that those in danger from dying were the old and those with existing health issues I would have encouraged them to lock down and with an economy that was still running at a reasonably high capacity used resources to give them the support they needed.
What we did by turning the economy totally off was to add to those needing support as you know from your efforts feeding those who up to then had been able to feed themselves.
With a total lock down all you have is you are moving a problem so you have a non solution without any possible exit strategy.
I would imagine that a vaccine is at least a year away, how many times do we lock down open up and lock down again.
You mentioned New Zealand but their population density is less than 50 people per square mile so its again apples and oranges.
You have to come up with a solution that your people will co-operate with and that takes into account your population density, economy.

One size isn't going to fit all and rarely does.

[alphamike]

No decision made yet, further meeting of ministers tomorrow morning. http://www.yeniduzen.com/1811-test-yapi ... 31200h.htm

Also http://www.yeniduzen.com/bakanlar-kurul ... 31198h.htm

[erol]

You mentioned New Zealand but their population density is less than 50 people per square mile so its again apples and oranges. You have to come up with a solution that your people will co-operate with and that takes into account your population density, economy.

One size isn't going to fit all and rarely does.

The comparison was between NZ and Sweden and their population densities are not that different. Around half of NZ population live in Aukland and over 2/3rds live in 'urban' environments. The idea that Sweden's deaths per head of population being 100 times greater than NZ's to date, is nothing to do with the choices the respective governments have made and down to 'population density' differences, is to me for the birds. We are not talking 20 % different here. Not 100% different. We are talking one hundred times different.

As to the entirely straw man 'argument' that one size does not fit all, it is just that. A straw man argument. What is sane and rational to me , when trying to decide what should be done here, is to first look at other places and then modify and tailor the 'best' for the situation here. What is not sane and rational to me is to look for a country that did not lock down, because you have decided that such is always bad, and then tailor that to the situation here, when that country has to date had 100 times more deaths per head of population and seen negative GDP that is similar or even greater than places like NZ.

[elizabeth]

I visited the hospital last week following an accident and the Doctor was extremely worried about the increase in cases of Covid. He said he was expecting it to get a lot worse and the medical team felt that the Government weren't doing enough to control it.
Everyone has a duty to follow the advice that is being given and to adhere to all the rules.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

when that country has to date had 100 times more deaths per head of population and seen negative GDP that is similar or even greater than places like NZ.

Sweden has had less than 6,000 deaths that have been put down to covid.
I know it suits to change the method of measure to prove a point so 100 times sounds cataclysmic.

I realise New Zealand is now the darling of the left but give it time old son, give it time.

[Catlover]

Msg 18 Elizabeth

Well said Elizabeth - and I hope you have fully recovered or at least on the road to recovery from your accident.

One final point, those who are arriving from the UK should also consider that giving big hugs and kisses to local restaurant staff does not only put the staff in an awkward position (given we are supposed to be social distancing, wearing masks and not shaking hands) but it can also be spreading the virus. Many are quick to blame those who have arrived from Turkey for the sudden increase in cases but I recently witnessed a couple without masks go to a local pizza restaurant and hug the waiter like long lost family. Not a good example to set. Please consider that you are putting the other person in a difficult position before you go back to your "normal ways". Rules are there for a reason and not to be broken.
Please stay safe.

[erol]

when that country has to date had 100 times more deaths per head of population and seen negative GDP that is similar or even greater than places like NZ.

Sweden has had less than 6,000 deaths that have been put down to covid.
I know it suits to change the method of measure to prove a point so 100 times sounds cataclysmic.

And New Zealand has had 24 deaths put down to covid to date. The numbers per head of population are over 100 times higher. That is just maths. I know the numbers do not suit your chosen dogma but that is not my fault. They are what they are. Old son. That by the way is 'evidence', as opposed to me just stating 'your are wrong because you do not understand as well as I do'.

I realise New Zealand is now the darling of the left but give it time old son, give it time.

I do realise it is 'challenging' for you and your dogmatic belief that 'left can only = bad', that NZ, with it's labour government, has achieved to date a death rate per head of population over 100 times lower than that of Sweden or the UK. All with comparable or lower economic impact in terms of GDP reduction.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-d ... n-policies

Looking forward to the well being budget. They might as well book an appointment with the IMF now.

[Jonnie]

Proposals
https://www.kibrisgazetesi.com/kibris/o ... 95779.html
Reasons
https://www.lgcnews.com/medical-staff-e ... -19-cases/

"Dr Emine Kamiloğlu said:

“ We are hospitalizing many local positive cases that are unclear from where the disease was transmitted, among them asymptomatic cases, only those who take a PCR test out of curiosity find themselves in the hospital after testing positive for Covid-19 positive."

Hospitalising asymptomatic cases??

[Jonnie]

Aspirations that a vaccine is imminent is completely misguided. Plans based on the assumption that a reliable effective vaccine is just around the corner are flawed. There was a claim in 1984 that an HIV vaccine was imminent however it has never materialised, 36 years ago, think about it.

Protect the vulnerable first but get the children out playing, meeting, going to parties, going to school and building immunity that will protect them and ultimately others.

We are only on this planet a short time let's not live it locked away.

[sophie]

Jonnie, re "asymptomatic cases" surely that has to be an error in translation? Had to smile re " only those who take a PCR test out of curiosity" Another translation error?

[Jonnie]

Jonnie, re "asymptomatic cases" surely that has to be an error in translation? Had to smile re " only those who take a PCR test out of curiosity" Another translation error?

I am not sure it is, I was told that is you tested +ve you went to hospital however more recent numbers would suggest that may not be the case. You have to be careful of what you take on board as fact, bit like the story of the friend of a friend of someone who met the British couple in a bar ignoring quarantine and boasting about it. That couple seem to get about a bit, been everywhere from Famagusta to Karisyaka!!

[erol]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-d ... n-policies

Looking forward to the well being budget. They might as well book an appointment with the IMF now.

You can always rely on the good old spintator. I do find it amusing that when the numbers for what has happened so far do not suit, just ignore them and move the conversation on to what you claim will happen in the future.

New Zealand already entered recession in June, which led to the nation's biggest quarterly contraction in 29 years. GDP fell 1.6 per cent in the first quarter from the fourth, which is the country's largest decline since 1991. With a worldwide recession beginning to bite, it is only going to get worse. Ardern's celebrations, it seems, may come back to haunt her.

And Sweden saw Qtr 2 GDP contraction of 8.6% , its largest single month drop in modern history. Still best not mention that when playing the lockdown culture war game. In the modern global interconnected economy no country is an island, even those that are islands.

Yes things may change. Some things have already changed in terms of improved treatments for those who catch the virus vs 6 months ago. We are also 6 months further along to developing a possible vaccine. However if you go on what has actually happened to date and not what you claim will happen in the future, NZ has achieved a death rate per head of population over one hundred times less than Sweden, with a similar degree of hit to the economy as Sweden and actually with less restrictions on individual freedoms internally when measured by numbers of days individuals have been subjected to such internal restrictions.

[elizabeth]

While you two argue about NZ and Sweden those of us who live in TRNC are more concerned with what is happening here. Please either give it a rest or find a quiet corner where you can enjoy your point scoring.

[Chriswright03]

While you two argue about NZ and Sweden those of us who live in TRNC are more concerned with what is happening here. Please either give it a rest or find a quiet corner where you can enjoy your point scoring.

[erol]

With respect elizabeth in a thread titled 'radical measures proposed' that is talking about what measures are to be taken here is it not entirely on topic to look at that in light of what measures are being taken elsewhere ? For the record both of us live in the TRNC.

Care to share you opinion elizabeth ? Do you think the TRNC should look more to the Swedish approach or the NZ one when deciding what measures to implement here ?

[Sultan]

Well done Erol. It is important people challenge views not based on facts or evidence because other people may be swayed into believing them. E.g statement made by ETS on vaccinations.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Well done Erol. It is important people challenge views not based on facts or evidence because other people may be swayed into believing them. E.g statement made by ETS on vaccinations.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a vaccination that has zero side effects as much as the next person and obviously being vaccinated will be better than not but I am realistic that the chances of this being a risk free strategy are about zero.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Yes things may change. Some things have already changed in terms of improved treatments for those who catch the virus vs 6 months ago. We are also 6 months further along to developing a possible vaccine. However if you go on what has actually happened to date and not what you claim will happen in the future

Like I said give it time, give it time.
The only thing I am confident on is if I'm wrong you'll enjoy pointing it out but if your wrong you will somehow convince us that you never said that was the way forward.
Not been keeping up with whats happening in South Korea but as you've gone quiet on them and now going the NZ model can I assume you've switched horses now?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Protect the vulnerable first but get the children out playing, meeting, going to parties, going to school and building immunity that will protect them and ultimately others.

We are only on this planet a short time let's not live it locked away.

Amen to that

[Up the Reds.]

Hard hat and protective clothing and 'in I go' !! This may be topic or not BUT a member of my close family is a Doctor in A & E in a big city in the UK so what he says may not be the case anywhere else in the World. He and his colleagues believe that the figures for Covid19 cases in the UK have been manipulated. It may be that this has been designed to stop the ever present over use of the NHS system BUT the conspiracy theorists may believe 'the deep state' is using it to frighten the population into submission?? I myself am in the seriously 'at risk' age bracket so I would expect many of those that I went to school with, did the '60's thing' and started work with...alive and kicking in 2019 should be 'falling like flies' !! Every day I check the obituary column and. NOT one has CV19 or passed. My area is, by government statistics, in the 'high incidence' catagory so what do I take from that ....puzzled .... can't answer it ?? Before I am attacked, I know that CV19 is a very nasty virus and is definetely destroying lives and I have no answer to what governments to do. One thing's for sure is that the cure is likely to cause long lasting pain!!

[Sultan]

Re message 35 . Perhaps your friends have heeded scientific advice and taken precautions? With over 60000 excess deaths over normal for the time of year surely suggests something is happening!

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Here’s a question.
How many people on here know of someone fit and healthy who has died or even caught covid?
I don’t mean I’ve got a friend and they have a friend....I mean how many people know a direct friend or family member who has died or been seriously ill with this?

[erol]

Not been keeping up with whats happening in South Korea but as you've gone quiet on them and now going the NZ model can I assume you've switched horses now?

South Korea - deaths to date per million of population - 6.6 (qtr 2 gdp growth -2.7%)
New Zealand - deaths to date per million of population - 4.91

Sweden - deaths to date per million population - 573.2
UK - deaths to date per million population - 624.98

(source https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... habitants/)

You dismiss that anything can be learnt from the SK example - too culturally different according to you
You dismiss that anything can be learnt from the NZ example - population density too different and it will at some point in the future be just as bad anyway.

Yet you do use Sweden as an exemplar, cultural differences aside and population density aside.

The only way I can make sense of such a 'view', given those facts is within the context of a 'lock down culture war' where by you decided, even before there was any evidence, that 'lockdown' was the wrong thing to do and now you will just ignore anything that does not support that pre chosen opinion.

[13roman58]

Here’s a question.
How many people on here know of someone fit and healthy who has died or even caught covid?
I don’t mean I’ve got a friend and they have a friend....I mean how many people know a direct friend or family member who has died or been seriously ill with this?

My sister went through hell for three weeks, brought home by her husband who had to commute on the tube, but didn't have any symptoms. A further three in his dept caught it,one nearly died.

[erol]

Here’s a question.
How many people on here know of someone fit and healthy who has died or even caught covid?
I don’t mean I’ve got a friend and they have a friend....I mean how many people know a direct friend or family member who has died or been seriously ill with this?

Fit and healthy is a relative term but for those of us who have lost someone to this pathogen, when there had been no expectation of imminent death before coivd, to ask for and expect details on a public forum like this is to me somewhat callus to be honest.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

You dismiss that anything can be learnt from the SK example - too culturally different according to you

I'm guessing that's a subtle racist dig? Obviously easily defended but drip drip eh?

My point is I know the South Korean people and if you asked them all to wear a top hat tomorrow 99% would do their level best to comply.
Here and in the UK we can't get people to wear a mask when popping to the shops or perhaps not to go on that extinction rebellion march so the culture of the people is a factor.

[erol]

You dismiss that anything can be learnt from the SK example - too culturally different according to you

I'm guessing that's a subtle racist dig? Obviously easily defended but drip drip eh?

My point is I know the South Korean people and if you asked them all to wear a top hat tomorrow 99% would do their level best to comply.
Here and in the UK we can't get people to wear a mask when popping to the shops or perhaps not to go on that extinction rebellion march so the culture of the people is a factor.

I have never claimed that cultural factors are of no relevance, I just find your theory that nothing can be learnt from that example because of these differences more excuse than reason. This is only reinforced when then go on and dismiss NZ as an example using the much much more spurious argument of 'population density' differences. It is reinforced more again when you use Sweden as an example to follow. I will point out again we are not talking 30% difference in to date death rates here. We are talking ball park 2 orders of magnitude. Two order of magnitude would be the difference between a job offer at a salary of £20,000 per year and one of £2,000,000 per year.

As for you feeling me pointing out these facts is some kind of accusation of racism against you, that is entirely in your head, not mine. I am tempted to suggest you stop being such a snowflake to be honest.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Fit and healthy is a relative term but for those of us who have lost someone to this pathogen, when there had been no expectation of imminent death before coivd, to ask for and expect details on a public forum like this is to me somewhat callus to be honest.

OK fit and healthy is a relative term. I know of one person who I was informed had died of covid. Someone phoned me up to tell me. "I said didn't he have terminal cancer?" "Well yes but....."

So a bit of expected fauxtrage and by the 'those of us' comment I take it you don't know of anyone. Thanks for taking part.

I'm just curious because a lot of people I talk to back in the UK don't actually know of anyone who has been effected and it was as a follow on to the theory that the figures have been manipulated as below.

This may be topic or not BUT a member of my close family is a Doctor in A & E in a big city in the UK so what he says may not be the case anywhere else in the World. He and his colleagues believe that the figures for Covid19 cases in the UK have been manipulated. It may be that this has been designed to stop the ever present over use of the NHS system BUT the conspiracy theorists may believe 'the deep state' is using it to frighten the population into submission??

Now the figures are still all over the shop and for all I know they could have been over reported or under reported.
They might be under reported to stop anarchy break out or to show your government in an efficient light or they could have been over reported because if people ever find out that millions of them lost their homes and jobs because of an total overreaction then that won't play well either.

I'm not big on conspiracy theories but I am well aware that ALL governments lie.
Interestingly people will buy into a theory that Donald Trump's family are Russian agents but not that a government might be a bit creative with figures. Well apart from Britain. America and Israel = Bad of course

I know only statistics count and anything else is anecdotal evidence like when we look at crime statistics but I was curious to hear the anecdotal evidence on this.

What was it that Orwell wrote in 1984?

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. That was their final, most essential command."

[erol]

So a bit of expected fauxtrage and by the 'those of us' comment I take it you don't know of anyone. Thanks for taking part.

You are just wrong. I have lost someone. They were not 'fit and healthy' but they were not suffering from anything deemed terminal either. My outraged at being bullied by you in to having to disclose all this is not faux, it is real. As is the deep sorrow I feel for this persons partner and their two children.

[13roman58]

As usual this thread has deteriorated into an argument between two members.
AGAIN.

[erol]

Now the figures are still all over the shop and for all I know they could have been over reported or under reported.

What someone has died from is a matter of both degrees and subjective opinion. If someone is dead or not, is not a matter of degree or opinion. The increase in total deaths all causes in England and Wales ONS numbers are not 'all over the place'. That you in the past have 'explained' these numbers as just being a 'temporary' spike because of people dying who would have died in a few weeks or months anyway, has now also been shown to have not been the cases to any significant degree. If it had of been the case then the weekly excess numbers in the multiple 1000s and even peaking at 10,000 plus for a couple would have resulted in similar scale of 'negative' excess deaths in the subsequent weeks or months and this has NOT turned out to be the case.

[Mowgli597]

Here’s a question.
How many people on here know of someone fit and healthy who has died or even caught covid?
I don’t mean I’ve got a friend and they have a friend....I mean how many people know a direct friend or family member who has died or been seriously ill with this?

Me. Someone in the TRNC.

[erol]

As usual this thread has deteriorated into an argument between two members.
AGAIN.

Given that you started this thread and your post above I will no longer post to it.

[13roman58]

As usual this thread has deteriorated into an argument between two members.
AGAIN.

Given that you started this thread and your post above I will no longer post to it.

Thank you Erol

[frontalman]

Here’s a question.
How many people on here know of someone fit and healthy who has died or even caught covid?
I don’t mean I’ve got a friend and they have a friend....I mean how many people know a direct friend or family member who has died or been seriously ill with this?

My daughter-in-law who manages a care home in London, had it really bad, was in hospital for weeks, then bed-ridden at home for a while longer. It was six weeks more before she could return to work and she's still not right now.