Winter Fuel Allowance

belle · Post by **belle** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 2:46 pm

In the Chancellors speech this afternoon he announced that the winter fuel allowance for expats in warm climates is ending in 2015.

Royalcorpsoftranspor · Post by **Royalcorpsoftranspor** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 3:14 pm

That should save the UK Government a few Billion pounds.
Every one you talk to here over the age of 60 seems to receive it WHY !!!!!

kaiserphil · Post by **kaiserphil** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 3:20 pm

Royalcorpsoftranspor wrote:That should save the UK Government a few Billion pounds.
Every one you talk to here over the age of 60 seems to receive it WHY !!!!!

Because they are entitled to it.

They are talking about a temperature test, but I doubt it will stop there, I suspect it will eventually apply to any expat, no matter where they live.

Where I live, the winters are far colder than much of the UK, but I expect to lose it eventually.

Maybe I shall have moved to Florida before then.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 5:10 pm

The problem with universal benefits it that they have to be applied universally according to European Law. A temperature test would stop expats in warm countries or even warm parts of the UK but not Expats in cold countries. Far to many people get this money when they do not need it, it was brought in by Gordon Brown in 97 as a vote buyer for the grey vote for that abhorrent Tony Blair. I am glad that the chancellor has seen fit to start to tackle it. Spend the money where it is needed and not where it is not.

woodspeckie · Post by **woodspeckie** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 5:28 pm

The temperature test was analysed by which countries are warmer on average between November and March than the South of England the warmest part of the UK. The countries are Cyprus, France, Gibralter, Greece, Malta, Portugal and Spain.

Halffull · Post by **Halffull** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 6:15 pm

It's all relevant, if you live here permanently, then the temperatures here are as bad as UK in the winter and we need heating as much as anyone in the UK, plus it was a benefit for all pensioners, we get little else from the country we supported, paid into, and are still taxed by except abuse for easing the load on the NHS, and coucils for moving out.

the butlers wife · Post by **the butlers wife** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 6:21 pm

Msg 2

I have lived through two winters here now, last winter was relatively mild but the winter of 2011 was really cold and on some days was colder than the UK. We need heating here in the winter months just as in the UK but the winters are of course shorter here, however in the summer we need air conditioning as in the UK you don't. I knew at some point someone would look at expats and say why are they getting the fuel allowance and take it away. More money to spend on immigrants who do not contribute to the system, assylum seekers, single mothers with numerous kids, wars that don't concern us, oh! and I nearly forgot ministers pay rises.

The butlers wife

Art · Post by **Art** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 7:18 pm

I don't have a problem in cutting out the winter fuel allowance as long as they don't expect me to pay tax on my income.....ha ha!

And how about the Brits who winter in these warmer countries.?

The Banshee · Post by **The Banshee** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 7:43 pm

I agree with messages 7 and 8.
Another salient point is the fact that pensioners living abroad pay for their own medical care and prescriptions thus saving the UK government vast sums of money.
It's worth noting that this proposal may never come into affect as a general election will undoubtedly kick the current lot out.

paddywack · Post by **paddywack** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 7:52 pm

Why did all these people choose to leave UK if it is so good and and warm there?

paddywack · Post by **paddywack** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 8:20 pm

the butlers wife wrote:Msg 2

I have lived through two winters here now, last winter was relatively mild but the winter of 2011 was really cold and on some days was colder than the UK. We need heating here in the winter months just as in the UK but the winters are of course shorter here, however in the summer we need air conditioning as in the UK you don't. I knew at some point someone would look at expats and say why are they getting the fuel allowance and take it away. More money to spend on immigrants who do not contribute to the system, assylum seekers, single mothers with numerous kids, wars that don't concern us, oh! and I nearly forgot ministers pay rises.

The butlers wife

In that same winter, the thermometer dropped to-18 here and stayed there for 3 days and 2 nights, now that is cold.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 9:22 pm

the winter fuel allowance replaced cold weather payments which were designed to help those in need, who feel the cold more than others in winters in the UK when the weather was particularly cold. It morphed into what it is today purely as a vote getter and now it is yet another benefit that people claim entitlement to when they do not know the hardship pensioners used to get. On top of that it is paid to people who simply do not need it. My late father used to get it, he lived in sheltered accommodation which the council provided, the provision included heating, he still got it. As it stands at the moment it is money wasted, spent on those who largely do not need it, winters here are no where near as cold as they are in the UK and as for saving money by not using the NHS, well you chose to live here for whatever reason and it keeps getting quoted that many are returning to the UK for medical reasons. It needs an overhaul it was never anything more than a vote buy by that idiot who ran the UK to the point of bankruptcy and it is about time people stopped spongeing off the state and took a more "Ask not what your country can do for you" approach.

BLUE BUTTERFLY · Post by **BLUE BUTTERFLY** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 11:04 pm

Here Here, Johnnie, well said, and how many people here whingeing about it being stopped are the '6 monthers'?

The ones who return to the UK every six months to visit their free NHS GP/dentist, to have their free NHS medical check up, stock up on their free NHS prescription medicines etc etc etc.

But of course, they are entitled to it.

CatalkoyChris · Post by **CatalkoyChris** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 12:03 am

It mentions Cyprus as one of the "axes of evil", but does that apply to northern Cyprus??

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 6:07 am

the butlers wife wrote:Msg 2

I have lived through two winters here now, last winter was relatively mild but the winter of 2011 was really cold and on some days was colder than the UK. We need heating here in the winter months just as in the UK but the winters are of course shorter here, however in the summer we need air conditioning as in the UK you don't. I knew at some point someone would look at expats and say why are they getting the fuel allowance and take it away. More money to spend on immigrants who do not contribute to the system, assylum seekers, single mothers with numerous kids, wars that don't concern us, oh! and I nearly forgot ministers pay rises.

The butlers wife

I think you will find ministers took a pay cut when the coalition was formed and it has been frozen since.

Mountain Edge · Post by **Mountain Edge** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 6:54 am

You mention free this and free that but it isn't free at all. I paid in to the system for 45 years without taking a penny piece and I don't feel guilty at all about getting a little bit back.
At least I can spell "English" as well as speak it, unlike some of those who get benefits for just having turned up and given nothing.

Royalcorpsoftranspor · Post by **Royalcorpsoftranspor** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 7:03 am

CatalkoyChris wrote:It mentions Cyprus as one of the "axes of evil", but does that apply to northern Cyprus??

As the trnc is an unrecognised state I am sure, if the Government were aware people were claiming from here it would be stopped .

Becker · Post by **Becker** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 7:40 am

Mountain Edge.I totally agree with what you say.My wife & myself both contributed for 52 & 48 years.We are still contributing now.Why not have some of what we paid in back?Thought that is what the system was designed for.We have also not drawn any handouts,dole or social security!!

wibow · Post by **wibow** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 9:03 am

Totally agree with msg 3.6.7.16.18

My Husband and I both paid into the system 48 years

and must say CLAIMED nothing then and nothing NOW

only what we are entitled to

So why should we feel GUILTY.

After all, the Government is only juggling with OUR money

mamachina · Post by **mamachina** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 9:09 am

Maybe as our address is "Turkey" they wont recognise the pensioners who live here??

Art · Post by **Art** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 10:40 am

How do they plan to target the many thousands of Brits who winter in these countries ?

magalan · Post by **magalan** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 12:06 pm

As far as I can see, nobody that receives Winter Fuel Allowance receives it illegally - it is awarded by the Government.

Figures available from DWP show the biggest bill for this payment, to expats, in the winter 2011/12, was to Spain - a grand total of

£5.78 million. So am I right in thinking that if all the MPs on the expenses fiddle had repaid the monies they stole from the British

taxpayer, the expats in Spain, at least, (and probably TRNC) would not have to give up one of their rightful dues from HMG?

The Banshee · Post by **The Banshee** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 1:10 pm

Started work at 16 and have paid NI, Tax, VAT, Council Tax and every other tax until I reached retirement. I pay at least 3 times the winter fuel allowance for heating here in Cyprus. Suggest they should stop paying it to MP's, Senior Civil Servants and everyone who has an income of over £50K per annum first. The fact that I worked my arxe off every day for almost 40 years to be able to afford to buy a meagre place out here and makes ends meet doesn't make me a blxxdy millionaire. I'm paying much more than the Winter Fuel Allowance on prescript
tions and health care here...If I was back in the UK they'd have to pay it.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 1:48 pm

The point I am making is it should not be paid to people who do not need it, far too many people get it who do not need it and why as a UK tax payer should what I am paying in be wasted. Originally this was a £20 payment which was £50 if you were on additional benefits, it became a universal payment in 1997 just before the election, OH what a surprise. I have one householder here who will reach the entitlement next year and I will happily accept it whilst the payment is there however I would prefer to see it targeted at the more needy and to be honest I feel the same about child benefit.

Magalan if the changes happen it will cease to be a rightful due, do you think Expats in Australia should get it, how about those living in Kenya?

Britain has to cut spending and if that means cutting "benefits" from those that do not need them I am all for it, go for it Mr Osbourne.

magalan · Post by **magalan** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 8:37 pm

Jonnie wrote:The point I am making is it should not be paid to people who do not need it, far too many people get it who do not need it and why as a UK tax payer should what I am paying in be wasted.

Magalan if the changes happen it will cease to be a rightful due, do you think Expats in Australia should get it, how about those living in Kenya?

Jonnie, who decides that "I" don't need it? When did they decide that? If now they say "I" don't need it, why have they been taking money (tax) off me for more than 50 years, some of which is now being repaid to me - call it a "Winter Fuel Payment" if you like. It doesn't matter what you call it, if that was part of the deal struck between me and the government (did I have any option?) they should stick to it - it's irrelevant where I choose to live. If they decide now that "I" don't need it, refund to me what they have taken.

So you're OK with the rules of the game being changed (and not in your favour) halfway through the game?

Sandman · Post by **Sandman** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 12:26 am

Jonnie, don't know you but you talk nonsense. Everyone who has contributed to the "system" should benefit from it regardless of their financial situation.

zarafet · Post by **zarafet** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:05 am

Personally, I am fed up with the UK Government changing the rules. When I started work and paying in to the system I was told I was going to get a pension at 60, after about 10 years or so they changed it to 65, then a while ago it became 67. Who knows what it will change to by the time I reach 67. Now they are taking away winter fuel allowance for me, on top of that if I choose to live in certain countries then they wont give the annual increase. So in effect, it looks like I paid in for nothing and when my private pension kicks in (thank God I have one), they will tax me on that as well!! Also how do they work out which countries are cold enough, it is often colder here than the UK, electric etc, here is more expensive that the UK and more is needed to heat the damp, non insulated houses. In the UK you can get grants for insulation, maybe we can apply for those?? - probably not.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:15 am

magalan wrote:
Jonnie wrote:The point I am making is it should not be paid to people who do not need it, far too many people get it who do not need it and why as a UK tax payer should what I am paying in be wasted.

Magalan if the changes happen it will cease to be a rightful due, do you think Expats in Australia should get it, how about those living in Kenya?

Jonnie, who decides that "I" don't need it? When did they decide that? If now they say "I" don't need it, why have they been taking money (tax) off me for more than 50 years, some of which is now being repaid to me - call it a "Winter Fuel Payment" if you like. It doesn't matter what you call it, if that was part of the deal struck between me and the government (did I have any option?) they should stick to it - it's irrelevant where I choose to live. If they decide now that "I" don't need it, refund to me what they have taken.

So you're OK with the rules of the game being changed (and not in your favour) halfway through the game?

If you think it is just a bonus payment being wrapped up as Winter Fuel Payment fair enough, that supports my vote buy argument.

If it is a winter fuel payment it should be paid to those needed, those who risk dying of cold because they cannot afford to pay for fuel, it should be means tested. The tax system you paid in did not promise you a winter fuel payment. I am happy to change the rules, to me it was a hollow payment made by a shallow chancellor. I am less happy about the extension to the age at which state pensions get paid as this effects my household by something like 7 years assuming it does not get changed again, however I accept that the burden on the state is just too great and unsustainable and if moves were not made to address that, my country would be in the state that the South is before long. I am glad they have stopped burying their heads in the sand and started to take action.

Sandman, please feel free to disagree but also please accept that others may have an opinion which differs from you, that does not necessarily mean its nonsense. I agree with your statement "Everyone who has contributed to the "system" should benefit from it regardless of their financial situation", they do, it is called the state pension.

flowerfairy · Post by **flowerfairy** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:32 am

I too don't feel guilty accepting the fuel payment. When we were younger, we decided to start up a business.
My baby spent most of her days in her pram in the shop. No holidays for 12 years. Our choice, we decided to look to
the future, and hopefully not have to struggle.
We did very well, and bought our own house. Now that I'm retired, my house is rented, and I still pay tax.
My biggest bug is they call it...... UNEARNED INCOME !!!!!!

flowerfairy · Post by **flowerfairy** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:40 am

mess 10, paddywack.
There was a murder not far from my daughter's house.
The police were too scared to enter the ''estate'' where the
travellers dwelled illegally.
Burglery was becoming rife.
Hoodies were hanging around scaring old folk, and stealing from the local shops.
Druggies were hanging around the local schools.

Just to name a few. This is the short version

magalan · Post by **magalan** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:48 am

Jonnie wrote:The point I am making is it should not be paid to people who do not need it, far too many people get it who do not need it and why as a UK tax payer should what I am paying in be wasted.

I am less happy about the extension to the age at which state pensions get paid as this effects my household by something like 7 years assuming it does not get changed again,
"Everyone who has contributed to the "system" should benefit from it regardless of their financial situation", they do, it is called the state pension.

Jonnie, please apply the same thinking to "your" pension as you do to "my" winter fuel payment - the government have decided to delay payment of "your" pension for 7 years because "you" do not need it. So why as a UK taxpayer should what you are paying in be wasted? (Your words)

magalan · Post by **magalan** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:51 am

And yes, the tax system did promise a winter fuel payment - I have been receiving it ever since it became due to me.........

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 12:37 pm

magalan wrote:
Jonnie wrote:The point I am making is it should not be paid to people who do not need it, far too many people get it who do not need it and why as a UK tax payer should what I am paying in be wasted.

I am less happy about the extension to the age at which state pensions get paid as this effects my household by something like 7 years assuming it does not get changed again,
"Everyone who has contributed to the "system" should benefit from it regardless of their financial situation", they do, it is called the state pension.
Jonnie, please apply the same thinking to "your" pension as you do to "my" winter fuel payment - the government have decided to delay payment of "your" pension for 7 years because "you" do not need it. So why as a UK taxpayer should what you are paying in be wasted? (Your words)

Magalan, if you choose to quote me please keep it in context. I said I was "less happy about the extension to the pension age" but I accepted it because the burden on the state was too great. If you have been paying in for 50 years most of the time you were not promised a winter fuel payment but a payment was made in times of severe winter weather. The current system came in in 1997.

Just to clarify another error, my pension age has at the moment been extended by 1 year, my wife would have been due hers in 2014 but will not now get it till 2019.

Living here I have never woken up to frost on the windows, there are real people suffering real hardships in the UK, they are the ones that should receive help, the ones that are pretty much dying from the cold because they are too frightened to put the electric fire on, that is where winter payments should be targeted.

the butlers wife · Post by **the butlers wife** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 5:31 pm

Why don't they just increase the state pensions in line with other eauropean countries and do away with the winter fuel allowance, then that would solve all our problems. I bet you wouldn't argue with that Jonnie, or would you still be saying they need to be means tested?

The butlers wife

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 6:23 pm

Other European countries? Cyprus perhaps?

I have no problem with a pension increase as and when the country can afford it, Gordon Brown could have put the pensions up instead of this blanket give away, why did he not? It would not have got the votes he needed.

The point is more and more people are living longer this needs to be paid for out of a budget which is stretched beyond the limit, if it does not get dealt with, if people continue to bury their heads in the sand this will put a burden on future generations which they will not be able to recover from.

Sandman · Post by **Sandman** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 11:44 pm

It wasn't Brown who cut the link between pensions and earnings in the 80s !!
And if any chancellor is shallow it's the cretan we have now !!

Royalcorpsoftranspor · Post by **Royalcorpsoftranspor** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 6:34 am

I can only assume from reading this, that all you people who are receiving this are lying to the British Government about where you live. Every dog has its day & the British Bulldog will catch you.

belle · Post by **belle** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 6:52 am

Roaylcorp, well said, what all you lot fail to recognise is that we need our heating on in the summer in the UK, you lot don't, plus you chose to live there, noone forced you to.

The Government has to cut the deficit and everyone needs to be honest and do their bit.

andrew4232 · Post by **andrew4232** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 6:59 am

maybe a fair way to make the payment would be you have to produce a gas or electric bill in your name and your address and they credit that account then its going for what its intended to used for !

zarafet · Post by **zarafet** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 7:10 am

Belle, I think you are exaggerating things a bit. In 50 years in the UK I have never had the heating on in summer. Even when we go back now in summer and feeling cold when it's in the 20s I still do not have heating on, although I do turn off the unnecessary aircon, as we don't use that here until it hits well into the 30s. Also you say we don't need heating in summer (and you don't in the UK either), but we do need air con, but a lot of us can only afford to put it on for a very limited amount of time as it is horrendously expensive. As to payments from the British Government, I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never get a pension, as the age keeps going up and the rules keep changing. I think that for ex pats, the fairest thing they could do if they don't want to give us our rights, is to give us back all the money we paid into the system, so that we can put it elsewhere.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 8:13 am

The winter fuel allowance is paid per household, not per person as people seem to imply. We have a house in the UK but we live here full time, a member of my family who is disabled lives in our house, alone, he to is over 60 so is eligible for the allowance. The amount payable is divided between my husband, myself and my uncle, we then transfer our portion to his account to pay towards his heating costs.
We have never lied to anyone about where we live, why should we, we still pay tax on our pensions, we paid in all of our working lives so there is no way that I will feel guilty about taking the allowance the Government choose to pay out.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 2:13 pm

That is so funny! We are talking about a benefit that was brought in to help old people who were literally dying of cold because they were too frightened to turn on another bar of an electric fire and now it is " but we do need air con". You are right though, without aircon we would spontaneously combust as used to happen before such luxuries were common place. It is a well known fact that millions die every day in hot countries once temperatures soar above 30 degrees. Perhaps we should appeal to DC for a Hot Weather Bonus in the summer so we can afford to cool down with a G & T. I am sure the voting public in the UK will have their hearts bleeding for us all!

belle · Post by **belle** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 4:50 pm

I most certainly am not exaggerating, I don't know what part of the UK you live in but it is nowhere that I will have ever heard of, it rarely gets in to the 20's here in summer, mid teens if we are lucky.

zarafet · Post by **zarafet** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 5:03 pm

I have lived in London, Essex, Kent and have family in various places. Neither I, nor they, have ever put heating on in summer. In fact, until I was about 11 or 12 we didn't have any heating except a gas fire in the lounge. My grandmother who lived to almost 100 never had heating other than an electric fire in the lounge and used to always have her bedroom windows open every day of the year!! To say it rarely gets above 20 degrees in summer and therefore heating is needed is ridiculous, who needs heating unless it is below about 14 and even then not necessarily in the British insulated houses. In my last house before we left, I never ever put the heating on upstairs as the house was so well insulated and as heat rises, it was warm enough without it.

MonkeyJustice · Post by **MonkeyJustice** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 5:36 pm

The winter fuel allowance in the UK doesn't even come close to touching the sides of the cost heating a typical house there between October and March. To receive the same amount here for some fire-wood and gas bottles would be ridiculous. Those claiming otherwise are selfish idiots. And that money you're 'entitled' to? It's called a state pension. And you get that, regardless of the fact that you've pissed off abroad. So stop whining.

philyesil · Post by **philyesil** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 8:50 pm

Perhaps they will move it to the summer for our extreme temperatures, so the elderly who paid into the system for more years than they care to remember, can put their air con on and make them more comfortable, help reduce their blood pressure!
Or is it their fault for leaving ailing blighty?

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Sun 30 Jun 2013 6:09 am

The really mad thing is... it will have to be policed. i.e. they will need to employ herds of Civil Servants to decide in cases where expats live here there and everywhere whether they do/don't get the allowance... and the appeals procedure when thy get it wrong.... the saving? Zilch. Possibly costs... remember these extra civil servants will have to housed and given state pensions and so will the extra appeals traffic cause high costs - they've looked at this before and decided it's a non-starter on cost grounds alone... and the potential savings are not worth the hassle.
It's wrong thinking. If they employed the same number of additional civil servants to chase tax evaders the savings would be immense but we all know that the politics of envy don't stretch to that don't we.
Making promises like this only bring them into disrepute...
I don't get a winter fuel allowance, I'm an innocent bystander making an observation...

belle · Post by **belle** » Sun 30 Jun 2013 6:17 am

You lot get your pension, when I get mine I will still be spending it IN THE UK, therefore still contributing unlike all of you. You put nothing in now but still expect to get handouts, come on stop whingeing, alternately move back and claim your allowances.

zarafet · Post by **zarafet** » Sun 30 Jun 2013 6:44 am

Belle you have just hit the nail on the head. The point is that a lot of us do still and will still be paying tax in the UK for the rest of our lives. So we are paying in and getting nothing back. Most of us are taxed on our pensions if we have had the forethought and planning to have a private pension too. So we pay in and then get nothing for it. Maybe they should stop taxing ex pats, then maybe we wouldn't expect anything in return.

the butlers wife · Post by **the butlers wife** » Sun 30 Jun 2013 7:01 am

Belle,

Although we live here in Cyprus some of us still pay taxes in the UK. We have 2 properties which we rent out and pay taxes on that income.
It took us years of hard work and planning to afford these properties, working 16 hour days. We lived in tied properties with our jobs with little social life to eventually afford our home in Cyprus. We chose to live here because of my health, as living here means I don't have to take constant medication which incidently I would get free in the UK. I feel that I have earned my pension and the winter fuel allowance, which is just about enough to cover the cost of logs for our wood burner. There are hundreds of us here who have done similar things to afford their homes here. Why penalise us for being sensible with our money instead of wasting it? Lots of the so called desperately poor in the UK can still afford to smoke, drink and gamble.

We come from the north east of england which is the coldest part of England and in summer we might have to put on one bar of an electric fire in the evening where we are sitting if it's raining but not the central heating.

The butlers wife

Kibkom North Cyprus Forum

Join us