Şeker Bayramı or Ramazan Bayramı

[iancrumpy]

I've never seen so many car washes working flat out up to Şeker Bayram

Sophie, like myself, you have lived in Turkey or the TR of NC for many years and are familiar with the name virtually everyone used for this holiday in the past. It's interesting (some might say disconcerting) how, over the course of 20 years, the name has changed to one more obviously related to the Islamic calender. Indeed, this year I've not seen any television commercials where the holiday is referred to as Şeker Bayramı.

Furthermore, two days ago, I asked my 22-year-old university-educated TC cousin-in-law if it was Ramazan Bayramı or Şeker Bayramı. Her reply was "Ramazan" ... and then after thinking for a few seconds, she added "that it could be either".

I raised this matter with TC friends yesterday, who said, yes, the name Ramazan Bayramı was more commonly used these days, but this was the first time it had been brought to their attention.

Anyone got any thoughts on this matter?

[corona24]

Interesting. Well the month is Ramazan,and the day after, the fasting is done, people visit each other and are given seker- candy, lokum, deserts. And the kids come to the door for candy- like Halloween but no saying or costumes. So easier to think: Ramazan Bayram followed by 3 days of festival = seker bayram. Do not forget, in October its Kurban Bayram !

[iancrumpy]

Ramazan Bayram followed by 3 days of festival = seker bayram.

Hi Corona24,

As you stated in your first sentence, the month of fasting is "Ramazan". That month is not "Ramazan Bayramı ". Just to clarify, the post is about the "three days of festival" which always used to be called "Şeker Bayramı", but now is more commonly referred to as "Ramazan Bayramı".

Do not forget, in October its Kurban Bayram !

It might be due to people's confusion as to when Şeker Bayramı and Kurban Bayramı occur, that advertisers, holiday companies (Turkish ones, that is) chose to use the name Ramazan Bayramı .

[corona24]

Oh ok thanx for clearing my confusion.

[iancrumpy]

OK then, let's presume the name change was initiated by Turkish holiday companies and hotels who wanted their Turkish customers not to be confused as to the time they were holidaying - ie. there is a possibility some Turkish people might have got the two bayrams mixed up ... after all, they are only two months apart - Calling it Ramazan Bayramı clarifies for all that it is the holiday/festival following Ramazan.

However, a more cynical (perhaps less gullible) individual might say that the name change was initiated by Ankara in an attempt to get Turks (and TCs) to more directly associate this more joyous time of the year with Islam. Yes, I too am partial to the occasional conspiracy theory every now and again

[kbasat]

Just to clarify, the post is about the "three days of festival" which always used to be called "Şeker Bayramı", but now is more commonly referred to as "Ramazan Bayramı".

Before I get myself involved in this 'argument', may I ask what is your basis for your assumption? Unless some evidence or explanation can be provided to back your claims, this post can only be a baseless argument upon someone's assumption.

[iancrumpy]

Before I get myself involved in this 'argument'

Does every thread have to result in an arguement?

May I ask what is your basis for your assumption? Unless some evidence or explanation can be provided to back your claims, this post can only be a baseless argument upon someone's assumption.

While watching the commercials on Turkish television with my TCs in-laws, I remarked that we rarely see or hear the bayram refered to as Şeker Bayramı these days. The six TC adults present agreed with me, as did a couple we chatted with the following day.

I then thought it would make for an interesting topic for a thread ... so I posted.

But as you know very well, I have no real evidence to support the claim.

Rather than writing somewhat agreessive statements such as "baseless argument upon someone's assumption" it might have been more appropriate if you had given your observations on whether there had been a noticeable name change over the years.

[iancrumpy]

I have done a little more research on this matter ... and according to http://www.forumdas.net/anket-bolumu/ra ... ami-31362/ the name of the bayram would seem to be a matter of discussion in Turkey ... of course with Erdoğan wanting the name to be Ramazan Bayramı.

However, as try as I might, I can not find any evidence to support my claim that the proportion of Şeker:Ramazan has changed over the years ... the observations of nine adults is hardly conclusive

Indeed my observations might have been distorted because, whilst in Turkey I was dealing mainly with children, for whom the Şeker carries more importance.

[kbasat]

ian, the whole point of me putting the word in between quotes was so that it is not taken in a negative fashion. argument is afterall is not a negative word and you should not take it as such.

The reason for me not to put my observations was because I first wanted to find out the basis of the claim. Afterall, the discussion of 'why ramazan bayram wording is being used more than seker bayram' and 'if ramazan bayram wording is being used more than seker bayram' are two different ones.

Now that I have the information I can say that I have spent approx 25 years of bayrams in NC and I cannot recall a single time where using ramazan bayram or seker bayram was any issue. I cannot recall if one or the other was being used more than the other. I know seker bayram is the same as ramazan bayram as long as I can remember and It has and it is always used as synonyms to one another.

K.

[iancrumpy]

Thank you for your input Kemal.

In hindsight this thread would have been better suited to a Turkish-medium forum, where more of the members would (a) have had experiences to comment on whether they felt there had been shift name-wise one way or the other, and (b) be able to comment on whether using the name Ramazan Bayramı would be favoured by a certain section of Turkish society.

Irrespective of whether this is the last post of the thread or not, I'm happy that we are now addressing each other by our first names.

[corona24]

Well regardless if the topic should have been a Turkey topic, we are living in North Cyprus, which is part of the Turkish Republic, so I think it still suits. Irrevelant or not, thanks for the topic discussion because I never really thought about it, not really cared. I am married to a Turk, as is many other people, and sadly I am still learning the Turkish culture, religion, lifestyle, etc. When I asked my spouse, he said " well Ramazan Bayram is the old name and Seker is just referred from the kids because after fasting their prize is seker."

[iancrumpy]

Ramazan Bayram is the old name and Seker is just referred from the kids because after fasting their prize is seker."

Hi Corona24,

It is indeed possible that my observations of 20, 25 years ago were distorted by the fact that I was dealing with children there in Istanbul for whom the şeker was of more importance. Furthermore, when I discussed this matter with my TC relatives and friends this week, they politely decided not to disagree with me.

In any case, thanks for your contribution to the thread, but, as Kemal pointed out, without any conclusive evidence for a nameshift either way, it's probably best that we let this thread quietly die away

We are living in North Cyprus, which is part of the Turkish Republic.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but you might want to think that one through again.


Ian

[kbasat]

Well regardless if the topic should have been a Turkey topic, we are living in North Cyprus, which is part of the Turkish Republic, so I think it still suits. Irrevelant or not, thanks for the topic discussion because I never really thought about it, not really cared. I am married to a Turk, as is many other people, and sadly I am still learning the Turkish culture, religion, lifestyle, etc. When I asked my spouse, he said " well Ramazan Bayram is the old name and Seker is just referred from the kids because after fasting their prize is seker."

After reading the words 'if the topic should have been a Turkey topic', I was expecting something like 'then let the Turks in Turkey worry about it', man I was grossly mistaken North Cyprus is a part of the Turkish Republic? definitely didnt see that coming Felt like one of those twists noone guesses in horror movies.

No disrespect but the way you are talking about North Cyprus, and not realizing the differences between the Cypriot culture and the Turkish culture, it looks like you are not really learning well enough.

Not only Cypriot Culture and Turkish Culture grossly different, Turkey itself is a huge country and 'cultures' differs greatly from one region to another.


Back to On-Topic
When I was a kid, there was no real difference what Bayram it was, whether is Seker or Kurban or Ramazan. Bayram was, well, Bayram, we always got sweets, sweet desserts and also money in both of them, there was and there is no difference between any 2 bayrams in terms of celebration in Cyprus.

[iancrumpy]

When I was a kid, there was no real difference what Bayram it was, whether is Seker or Kurban or Ramazan. Bayram was, well, Bayram, we always got sweets, sweet desserts and also money in both of them, there was and there is no difference between any 2 bayrams in terms of celebration in Cyprus.

Hi again Kemal,
My wife agrees with you that here in Cyprus, particularly from the children's point of view, there was no real difference between the two bayrams. However, both she and I lived in Istanbul in the late 80s and 90s and we feel that Kurban Bayram there, because of the kurbanlar, at least used to have a totally different feel about it. It sounds dramatic to say that there was blood in the streets, but particularly on the first day, that was indeed the case. Amongst my teaching colleagues, we had vegetarians, who refused to venture outside on those days. I think nowadays the kurbans there are conducted more often at certain approved locations.
Here in Cyprus, as with fasting, kurbans wouldn't seem so widespread ... but Kemal, as before, I have no figures to support any of my claims

[sophie]

Sorry to show my apparent ignorance, but I've always thought that Ramazan (or Ramadan which appears to be the western version) was more of a religeous occasion and Seker was the feasting bit at the end of the fasting. Obviously its a lot more complex than that. It does seem that with some children its become a bit like Halloween i.e. knocking on doors and expecting to be handed either money or sweets. I bet it wasn't always like that!!

[kbasat]

Sophie,
Ramazan (or Ramadan) on its own is just the name of one of the months in Hijri(arabic) calender. It also happens to be the month every year that people fasts so when you say month of Ramazan, it automatically implies month of fasting.

3 Days after the end of the Ramazan is the 'Bayram' (in Turkish). Because Muslims have 2 bayrams, this one is called either the Seker Bayrami(because childred were used to be handed sweets during this bayram) or Ramazan Bayrami (because its the one following the month of Ramazan).

As for the children knocking doors, it is definitely not a Cypriot thing. As children, we would never go around knock any stranger door, only friends and family, and my nieces and nephews are also not doing it right now. It is the children of most Turkish originated families doing this and I find it no different than begging and should not be considered part of Bayram tradition. Just a bunch of kids/people trying to exploit the occurrence.

K.

[pippie]

It doesn't really matter which term you use here, everyone knows what you mean.

Just to clarify though, if there was a shifting towards the religious phrases and practices from Islam then people would be starting to refer to the 3 days after Ramadan as Eid. For the past week I have been going around wishing people either Iyi Bayramlar or Eid Mubarak (Happy Bayram or Happy Eid) and the majority of Cypriots don't have a clue what you're talking about if you wish them Eid Mubarak. For them, this 3 day holiday is just that, an excuse for a good old knees up. Most of them will not have fasted during Ramadan so they have no appreciation of what the Bayram is meant to represent. I would say less than half of my Turkish friends and acquaintainces are familiar with the religious term Eid. In the main it's the Pakistanis and Arabs that know what it's all about, with a few Brits and religious-minded Turks thrown in!

[iancrumpy]

I would say less than half of my Turkish friends and acquaintainces are familiar with the religious term Eid.

I would concur with that observation.

For them, this 3 day holiday is an excuse for a good old knees up. Most of them will not have fasted during Ramadan so they have no appreciation of what the Bayram is meant to represent..

Chrstmas, for most Christians, has no real religious significance - it's a time when almost everyone is off work so families can get together ... very similar to the bayrams. I don't feel we should begrudge the non-fasting Turks or TCs this opportunity to get together.

It doesn't really matter which term you use here, everyone knows what you mean.

It's true that virtually everyone knows what you mean. However, in my opinion, calling it Ramazan Bayramı is more likely to get people to appreciate the religious significance of the bayram. And, seeing as Erdoğan prefers the use of Ramazan Bayramı, it would seem he agrees with me

[mickhm]

According to my Turkish phrase book there are two major Muslim holidays dictated by the lunar calender which occurr approx 11 days earlier each year

There is the festival of sweetmeats (Seker Bayrami) and the festival of sacrifice (Kurban Bayrami). The Holy month or Ramadan (Ramazan) occupies the 4 weeks preceding the festival of sweetmeats

[iancrumpy]

According to my Turkish phrase book there are two major Muslim holidays dictated by the lunar calender which occurr approx 11 days earlier each year

There is the festival of sweetmeats (Seker Bayrami) and the festival of sacrifice (Kurban Bayrami). The Holy month or Ramadan (Ramazan) occupies the 4 weeks preceding the festival of sweetmeats

Thanks for that Mick ... and clearly a good little phrasebook you have there. The topic of this thread primarily concerned the first of those two bayrams - Şeker Bayramı as your phrasebook calls it : It seemed to me that there had been a shift over the years from using Şeker Bayramı to its other name, Ramazan Bayramı ... a change that I felt might have been due to the preferences of Erdoğan and his AK Party. Other members though felt there was no significant nameshift either way ...