Ashamed to be BRITISH

terry2366 · Post by **terry2366** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 7:18 am

They are most likely better off hiding over there anyway cafe George is where most people go even if it's only on Mondays . Mr brown can hold his court there ( as most people know his achievements anyway ) they will have to go to him. I remember him from the dome a few years ago when he started arow off there . Full of self importance should have been an mp or run the coop bank.

Marions · Post by **Marions** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 8:24 am

I am smiling, but just a little warning from an (at least that is what I was called this week!!!) - be careful what you say just in case someone sues you for libel. But of course no one knows who you are - which is a great strength (and to some , a weakness) of forums.

Isn't there anyone out there who could write a few kind words on here on the newly elected committee?

As I said before, there is nothing to stop all the BRS members who like George's Café and who like to meet, sit in the sun and watch the world go by, meeting up whenever they choose - maybe sticking to the regular timing. And of course, they can thank the BRS for starting off the 'social club' at George's. It would be a shame if this popular place lost some business - although judging from the lack of empty chairs outside, it would seem unlikely.

Post by **Soner** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 8:57 am

Er... Marion, people can be traced via IP addresses. A matter of law contacting telephone company for details.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 9:09 am

Methinks an expat would be hard-pressed to win a libel case here, if it ever got to a hearing in their lifetime. Libel involves a falsehood, published and damaging a reputation. Is that the case in this particular thread or somebody's personal opinion of another person? Besides, me thinks Soner would have such a post removed and the member banned quite smartly!

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:05 am

Legally speaking you could probably sue someone elsewhere.

I am not usually one for being pro thread closing but this is now turning into a personal slanging match. There were clearly a lot of issues on the day with many issues involving many people. According to this thread the tone was set from the start with the outgoing acting chairs address and went downhill from there. The majority of the committee stood down which left a vacuum that was filled by another group.

Member or not the BRS has done good in the past and am sure it will do good in the future at some point and I think it is now time to move on as the place to fix the BRS is at the BRS and not on a public forum.

me&him · Post by **me&him** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:23 am

The issue is that a group of bullies harrassed a group of volunteers into stepping down, so they could take over.
Power games.

Give me ATA any day.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:23 am

Where would such a case be heard if not in the country the offence supposedly took place in? Only Turkey recognises the TRNC. Even if another country's judicial system agreed to hear it, how would any judgement be effected if the guilty party lives in the TRNC permanently and only travels to Turkey?

I respect your opinion on whether this thread should be closed, but its not one I personally share. The Mods have the say here. Non-members of the BRS should hear what has transpired in order they can make informed decisions on joining, or not, in light of what transpired. Having only been a member for 5+ years, I can say the greatest movement forward, on a number of issues (other than socials), occurred in the last year and that committee has gone to be replaced by a number of personalities who served on previous committees when things went wrong with accounting, member database numbers et al. I trust I have libeled nobody .

Mollie the cat · Post by **Mollie the cat** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:30 am

I agree with tomsteel. Those not interested need not click on the thread, there have been over 3,600 views so there is a lot of interest.

Of all the replies on here, I still see not one supporting the new committee, or supporting the debacle that occurred on Saturday. The response from the "old guard" is deafening.

Keep the pressure on I say, let them sweat, having said that I really don't think they care one way or another what this forum thinks.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:35 am

me&him wrote:The issue is that a group of bullies harrassed a group of volunteers into stepping down, so they could take over.
Power games.

Give me ATA any day.

There were plenty of power games being played out on both sides before this meeting including ones from the committee labelled "Confidential" being e-mailed to members. It was pretty pathetic from both sides.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:40 am

tomsteel wrote: Having only been a member for 5+ years, I can say the greatest movement forward, on a number of issues (other than socials), occurred in the last year and that committee has gone to be replaced by a number of personalities who served on previous committees when things went wrong with accounting, member database numbers et al. I trust I have libeled nobody .

I probably largely agree, but then they ran shouting bully and left a vacuum............

me&him · Post by **me&him** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:49 am

But if you volunteered your time and efforts for free Johnnie, would you stick around for the harassment and abuse?
We are supposed to be grown ups here, not playground bullies

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 11:02 am

"Isn't there anyone out there who could write a few kind words on here on the newly elected committee?"

As a non member I will do the deed for you all:

The newly elected committee have, with total fairness to all involved, kept you all in the picture as regards the Saturday AGM and their own aims for the future of their society. I feel they have done a splendid job so far and should receive due praise for all their hard work to date. Long may they lead the society into a glowing future.

There you go, purely as a total outsider of course and having derived the content of the statement from public comment.

PapaBravo · Post by **PapaBravo** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 11:12 am

Don't know what happened to my post, so here goes again!

I too, disagree with Jonnie about closing the thread. People are still interested in reading about the debacle that was the BRS AGM and are still posting their opinions, so why would you want to stifle further discussion? Keep the thread open for those interested; those with no interest need not click the link.

On a similar note, I was annoyed by the the attempts of the outgoing committee to stifle debate on Resolution 2 at the AGM (I am a neutral and don't give a fig who is on the committee, although I would have liked to hear them all make their pitch so that I could decide who to vote for). For those that did not see the Agenda, Resolution 2 proposed that there should be NO COUPLES on the committee (spouses, co-habiting couples, whatever) because, with only 4 committee members required for a quorum, two couples could get together and drive committee decisions. In the event, the motion was eventually voted on and agreed. The emails prior to the AGM indicated that the outgoing committee did not like this resolution and did not even want it debated by the members! I understand that there was one and possibly two such couples on the committee. If true, why did not one spouse in each unit resign and continue to support the other spouse 'off' committee?

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 11:26 am

Ref msg 12/113 above. Seconded by? Those in favour/against?

PapaBravo, I agree the AGM was a debacle - hence my departure during Item 7 when the new Deputy Chairman hijacked the Meeting and the members developed a verbal brawl supporting either faction. Regarding couples on the Committee - the rules of the BRS state, why then did the BRS permit? Its a good thing my wife and I are not committee members - there would never be any agreement on any issue - .

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 11:49 am

PapaBravo wrote:Don't know what happened to my post, so here goes again!

I too, disagree with Jonnie about closing the thread. People are still interested in reading about the debacle that was the BRS AGM and are still posting their opinions, so why would you want to stifle further discussion? Keep the thread open for those interested; those with no interest need not click the link.

On a similar note, I was annoyed by the the attempts of the outgoing committee to stifle debate on Resolution 2 at the AGM (I am a neutral and don't give a fig who is on the committee, although I would have liked to hear them all make their pitch so that I could decide who to vote for). For those that did not see the Agenda, Resolution 2 proposed that there should be NO COUPLES on the committee (spouses, co-habiting couples, whatever) because, with only 4 committee members required for a quorum, two couples could get together and drive committee decisions. In the event, the motion was eventually voted on and agreed. The emails prior to the AGM indicated that the outgoing committee did not like this resolution and did not even want it debated by the members! I understand that there was one and possibly two such couples on the committee. If true, why did not one spouse in each unit resign and continue to support the other spouse 'off' committee?

PB I am not trying to stifle further discussion but when it starts to disintegrate into name calling and silly comments about Cafe George being too common the thread loses its credibility.

Tomsteel, the first target in litigation regarding forums is the forum host which is why Mods are quick to jump on some forums and, am told one of the reasons MSN stopped doing forums.

me&him · Post by **me&him** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 12:03 pm

To Papa Bravo

You have got it back to front. The situations written in the resolution were not real, and there were never 2 couples pushing rules through. that was just to make people angry, if anyone told you it was happening then they are lying.

At the agm both the proposer and seconder of resolution B (spouses of old guard now back on committee) were allowed to speak their bit without a single comment from anyone, but when Amanda got up to reply, the proposer started screaming at her like a fish wife, and the mob joined in. Even a former chairman yelled at her to resign before she even started talking.

Resolution B was passed without any chance of hearing both sides and she said she wouldn't stand for election. It is obvious the resolution was just there to make her quit. Really childish games.

Really embarassing to watch. As I said ATA from here on.

CatalkoyChris · Post by **CatalkoyChris** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 12:17 pm

I suggest this post is closed before the pitchforks come out

PapaBravo · Post by **PapaBravo** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 12:29 pm

To me&him.

Not sure what you mean. In my earlier post I did not suggest that there were any couples pushing things through. What I said was that Resolution sought to prevent that possibility from arising in the future. Nor did I suggest that there were any 'situations written in the resolution' as you put it. A resolution is not a scenario of events, it is simply an Agenda Item to debate an issue, or change, add or amend current rules.

[if anyone told you it was happening then they are lying.] I am also uncomfortable with people being accused of lying without any evidence, as happened at the AGM when the Chairperson who resigned a few weeks ago was branded a liar from the speaker at the podium.

I entirely agree with your second paragraph however. The behaviour of the 'old guard' was appalling.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 12:52 pm

Ref msg 17/118 above. And where could this issue then be debated? If you disapprove of the theme/tenor - do not read/respond to it and let those with an interest continue the debate.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 1:57 pm

Thread is being closely monitored.

As long as there is sensible debate then the thread will remain open, however if things do get out of hand then unfortunately the thread will have to be closed.

Hopefully everyone who was present or those that have an opinion will post what they heard, how they felt or general comments on what went on.

Whoever was to blame; as an outsider it appears to me that the BRS will have a long road ahead to persuade people that they are a respectable organisation, worthy of consideration in the future.

PapaBravo · Post by **PapaBravo** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 2:12 pm

I agree with Posh. There is huge interest in this subject and very little acrimony.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 4:12 pm

Nearly 4000 hits on this subject, and as PapaBravo stated 'very little acrimon and huge interest". No doubt the furore will abate with time but whether the BRS, in its current form, can survive in the longer-term, who can tell?

Marions · Post by **Marions** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 4:39 pm

Interesting that at lunch today I was asked by a couple of people 'What happened on Saturday'. Isaid we did not have enough time fo rme to tell all, but that they read this thread, or my link to it in the kib Kom Times (out in the morning).

What has been expressed here has been the thoughts, questions and opinions of those who went and felt that for an AGM it did not follow normal guidelines, and control got lost fairly early on. One can quite understand some people expressing feelings about personalities but remember when talking of libel (and I used the word first), it has ot be proven to be a lie!!!! Any case here would be pointless, unless you wanted to give lawyers a boost to their bank balances.

Many of the questions raised here are by those who were not there, and some people are trying to answer fairly.

I know a heck of a lot of the background to all this, and as far as I am concerned it is confidential, and much that was said at the AGM should have been held 'in house'; and not aired at the AGM. However, I am really disappointed that there was no debate concerning the resolution on couples. It is NOT a BRS rule at all, but was drawing on a 17 year old, observed traditional protocol (unquote) , and was pointedly aimed at two people. In the opinon of many it is a totally outmoded concept and is an insult to individuals that they must automatically 'obey' their other half but saldy there was no debate and no answers on this, which does of ocurse mean that the committee could be denied some fantastic talent!

But it is now history. Nothing can be done, other than to try t help people to understand that it was definitely a case of 'Brits behaving badly'.

Further comment is welcome, and as a Mod I am watching closely guys. Why? Cos I would not want any of you to get hurt any more than those who were hurt on Saturday (on both sides), or to hurt anyone else.
This place has some lovely people in it, and things go wrong. The AGM is behind - we must see what the BRS will be ahea,d but a lot of people may well not decide to hang around as a member to find out.

All down to choices, really.

lally · Post by **lally** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 4:59 pm

RE message 58 regarding an EGM as an option

Under the BRS rules, an option is available to members and of course the committee is to call an EGM. This requires the support of ten full members and needs to take place within 42 days from the date of submission as has been said. 30 days notice must be given to all members of the meeting date.

Concerned BRS members may still feel that this may be an option to consider. If this does happen and as already stated, it will provide us with the opportunity to revisit the issues that we were unable to discuss fully at the AGM as a result of the intimidation and aggressive behaviour of several people, including of course some members of the “new committee”.
I for one would like to explore more fully the issues dealing with inconsistent membership figures presented to the AGM’s since 2009. There is also the issue of the poor quality of the accounts handed over in 2013 to the acting treasurer taking over. These particular points have already been made by several people on this topic.
If sufficient numbers of forum contributors on this topic feel that this may be an approach then can I suggest that you post your thoughts/suggestions/Agenda items please?

Given the amount of effort required to go down this route, it would also be great to know what your current thinking is under two categories:
1) Existing members not currently planning to renew or cancelling their memberships unless significant changes are made.
2) Potential new members interested in joining if significant changes are made.

Jonnie · Post by **Jonnie** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 5:27 pm

On the point of popularity of this thread for every post there has been something in the region of 34 views. The free Efes has had over 90 views for one post.

Therefore on a post to view basis the latter is hugely more popular!

What is it they say about statistics

Marions · Post by **Marions** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 6:36 pm

I have an excellent book on my shelf 'How to lie with statistics!'. But to get real, one must accept that 20% of the membership of the BRS were at the AGM, with possibly the stat that half of those swayed or overruled the other 10% of the 20%. So one could say that 50% of those at the AGM were in favour of the resolutions etc,(which could be read 50% of the membership) but in fact they represented only 10% of the membership!

At the end of the day, though, I am sure for most people the bottom of a glass of beer is far more attractive than a glass half full of a more unacceptable content.

Nothing like the wonderful variety of likes and dislikes of we mere mortals.

BLUE BUTTERFLY · Post by **BLUE BUTTERFLY** » Wed 16 Apr 2014 10:29 pm

Shades of forum 44 here and why it no longer exists, and the same person/people who were stirring it re the Cheshire Homes.

I am slowly learning how to be a journalist. Let other people do the dirty work.

1 Ask people for permission to quote them.

2 Stir them up into commenting.

3 Later write a newspaper report quoting them.

4 Deal with any backlash by saying, don't shoot me, I am only the messenger.

SAD

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 7:59 am

Blue Butterfly, give up the desire to become a journalist, you have already sorted out the main points on how to be a politician - go for that, it pays more and you get a much better pension - lol.

Art · Post by **Art** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 1:52 pm

Blue Butterfly.

Great post and you are so right..

It reminds me of a great marketing technique "Let me borrow your watch and I will tell you time" at a cost of course.

lally · Post by **lally** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 4:07 pm

Thanks for the great article in Kibkom times Marian. A very objective piece of writing that covers the whole AGM saga very well. It will be interesting what the weekend papers, Cyptus Today and the Star come out with............

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 4:15 pm

I guess the new Vice Chairman's column in the Cyprus Toady (pun intended) will be a revelation.

Mollie the cat · Post by **Mollie the cat** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 4:21 pm

Anyone heard of a group called "making North Cyprus better" ? Sounds like a new style BRS but with a group of forward thinking people with like intentions, who want to genuinely help the expats and form relationships with the local community, that can only be a good thing surely.

I only heard of this group very recently, if anyone can shed more light on this group I would be very interested, thanks in advance.

erol · Post by **erol** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 4:24 pm

Mollie the cat wrote: I only heard of this group very recently, if anyone can shed more light on this group I would be very interested, thanks in advance.

http://www.mncb2011.com/

Hutch · Post by **Hutch** » Thu 17 Apr 2014 5:50 pm

Well done Marion

Difficult article to write, excellent overall review, I look forward to reading the minutes!

terry2366 · Post by **terry2366** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 10:29 am

After talking to lots of people that attended as well the opinion is the whole thing was organised to achieve the results it did. Packing the protesters in the front an heckling so no debate was possible. Must have been done with someone with experience in these matters??. Anyway not a good advert for democracy or expats do you let them win or is it possible to rerun the whole thing knowing what their tactics are now?

Mollie the cat · Post by **Mollie the cat** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 11:23 am

Terry,
Spot on! If that was not orchestrated by the hecklers I will eat my hat!! Shocking display of bad manners and down right rude. Those who attended the AGM for the first time (including me) would have been appalled at the attitude of those who did the shouting, they should hang their heads in shame.

( I will put money those people have read this thread )

Hutch · Post by **Hutch** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 12:39 pm

Did anyone pick up that awful leaflet outside that was given out by the two wives who
Put forward the 2nd resolution?? Do they do everything their husbands tell them!

It should have read

SAVE the OLD GUARDS BRS, DESTROY the accurate membership numbers, DESTROY the accurate BRS Accounts. DESTROY the infomatative website, DESTROY the excellent communication. DESTROY the belief that the BRS was progressing, just DESTROY this group of ordinary people who have ACTUALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE

That's what THEY did!

squashmad · Post by **squashmad** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 12:45 pm

Well done Marions for an excellent article in the Kibkom Times - must have been a difficult one to write as it was a members meeting and knowing where to draw the line on what you could include and what you could not!

Marions · Post by **Marions** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 7:37 pm

Thanks to the kind souls who recognized the challenge of writing that report. I am looking forward to reading CT (when I get a chance) tomorrow.

I have not as yet commence don the minutes, and I am fearful that it wil l mean a few destroyed trees to run them off for the membership next year. I think it is likely to be a bulleted list - and no particular emphasis on the word 'bullet'.

Been speaking with people today and there are still a lot of unhappy souls, but.... time will ease the 'pain' as time always does. But it will leave a long lasting sadness.

tonydouthwaite · Post by **tonydouthwaite** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 7:35 pm

Marions,
Is there any other society in the north that has a hospital discount scheme or a pre paid scheme, as i made the decision a long time ago that the BRS was not a society that i wanted anything to do with.
Tony

Marions · Post by **Marions** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 9:50 pm

Not sure, but it might be an idea fo ryou to ask around. The RBL meets at The Courtyar,d and I am sure that someone who reads KibKom could send you a private message about RBNL. (Brian Thomas is really the man to approach), or then I know that ATA is working on some scheme for medical discount, and it could wlel be that the Foreing Residents might have something.

However, I believe I am correct in saying that this is more a bonus to members than a reason for joining if you know what I mean. However, check them out, and again perhaps someone can post on here full details of the people to be contacted.

That might be helpful to quite a few forum members.

terry2366 · Post by **terry2366** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 9:42 am

I am not sure if TFR do it but they have been around since 1998 and comprise of about 17 different nationalities ..they do not seem to have the same problems as the BRS as it's run better and I don,t think the prime donnas that are in the BRS are members.

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 10:55 am

Wonder if there is anyone out there who could just put together a couple of lines which give brief details of organisations that people may wish to consider joining so that they may contribute or take advantage of any support/help on offer.

Probably not put this to well but living outside the TRNC it would be nice to know what the abbreviations stood for i.e. ATA, TFR, BRS, RBL etc etc.....some I am aware of but others I do not know about. Many may have already researched or know what these acronyms mean but some may not....plus maybe a very brief couple of lines on what they are about, a web link and contact info.

Thought it may be useful to have everything in one place.

Then again perphaps I should just search and find the info myself after all the internet is a wonderful tool!

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 12:26 pm

Ref msg 43/143 above. There are links to:

ATA - Anglo Turkish Association (angloturkishassociation.com)
BRS - British Residents Society (http://www.brstrnc.com)
KAR - Kyrenia Animal Rescue (http://www.kartrnc.org)
MNCB - Make North Cyprus Better (http://mncb2011.com/)
NCCCT - North Cyprus Cancer Charity Trust
RBL - Royal British Legion (rblkyrenia.com)
TULIPS - Cancer Support Group (tulips-trnc.com)

No doubt there are others and the more helpful posters will add to the list. Others are listed at http://www.cypnet.co.uk, plus there are a host of others with no internet link, eg, CESV (Civil Emergency Service Volunteers (112).

terry2366 · Post by **terry2366** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 1:00 pm

TFR trnc foreign residents good society. All welcome.

tomsteel · Post by **tomsteel** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 4:11 pm

TFR (http://tfrnorthcyprus.wordpress.com)

PoshinDevon · Post by **PoshinDevon** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 7:30 pm

Thanks to all for the helpful acronyms and contact info/

silverfox1 · Post by **silverfox1** » Mon 21 Apr 2014 7:55 am

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi David

Thank you for your response.

I would have thought that as the chair of the BRS you are the public face of that body and as such I would of thought it was totally incumbent upon yourself to make any anc allapologies that were necessary in order to preserve the good name of your organisation to everyone and that should include members, non members, and guests.

I am still dismayed that you do not feel it necessary to make an apology and that you have even stated that the honoured guests had left before the fracas...well do you presume that they some how are unaware of what happened and they cannot feat the papers and forums.

I do not think in any way that my original email was an 'attack', but a valid personal obervation on your handling of the situation with regard to both humility and good manners. It is only a shame that as a public servant you are unable to understand my point of view, and a view that is certainly held by many non members of BRS, the very people you should be trying to attract into said organisation.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to furnishme with Stephen Day's email address.

Regards

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From: DB
Sent: 20 April 2014

First off apologies for the delay in my response. There has been quite a lot in my postbox this past week. I presume from your initial comment that you are not members and therefore did not attend the AGM. The "honoured" guests left before the main meeting so missed the fracas. I will be putting out a full statement in response to Kibkom postings, most of which came from non members that did not attend.

I am sorry if my comments offended you, but as you don't know me your attack on my humility and good manners are not appropriate. I reiterate how ashamed I was at the spectacle but apologies should come from me only if members of the present committee were out of order and that was not the case.

Regards

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On 15 April 2014

Dear David,
I know very little about the BRS but what I have read on the forum dismays me.

Just reading your 'message' following the AGM does not bode well:
● Basically there is no abject apology for the disgusting behaviour at the meeting, which most importantly should be directed to the honoured guests.
● Secondly, as I have no idea whoyou are you would do rather better than bigging yourself up with a phrase like "you know how much I have achieved".

Perhaps a bit of humility and good manners might go a long way.

Regards

silverfox1 · Post by **silverfox1** » Mon 21 Apr 2014 7:56 am

From B

20/04/2011

We only give out committee members details to members. According to our records you are not members. I have told you that I will be issuing a statement to the members after it is approved by the committee tomorrow.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear David,
Once again you have failed to give me adequate response to my email and only sent me a stock reply. You have not even been bothered to send me Mr Days email address.

Regards

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014

From: DB

Thank you but can I suggest you wait for my official response to BRS members that will be out this week.

labelle · Post by **labelle** » Mon 21 Apr 2014 9:35 am

Mollie the cat wrote:Anyone heard of a group called "making North Cyprus better" ? Sounds like a new style BRS but with a group of forward thinking people with like intentions, who want to genuinely help the expats and form relationships with the local community, that can only be a good thing surely.

I only heard of this group very recently, if anyone can shed more light on this group I would be very interested, thanks in advance.

Dear Mollie the cat, The MNCB group are headed by the people who were abused at the recent AGM of the BRS, being now able to concentrate on the MNCB we can expect lots of information via Amanda on the MNCB web-site.
Not having to worry about 'Brits behaving badly' will allow the team to concentrate on Banks behaving badly

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