What is the current property situation v rumours?

[Hector]

I'd like to hear peoples views/knowledge on the following that I've heard in the last few days whilst looking for a reasonably priced villa with Turkish Title.

1. Exchange land title is now safe since the IPC has or will compensate previous GC owners. That this is especially true for those who have exchange land where the IPC has actually paid out. Question - What is there to stop the IPC/TRNC/Turkish governments now asking the new owner to repay the same amount that has been paid out by the IPC? How do you find out if the IPC has paid out on your land?

2. That there is TRNC legislation waiting to be passed to allow TC's to be compensated by the IPC for land owned in the south that has not been subject to the points exchange system. Question - why would the Turkish Government (who fund the IPC I understand) do that?

3. That people are not putting their property on the market at the moment as come July, after 40 years, the embargoes must be lifted by international law and thus property will rocket in value.
Question - Is it true and if so, what effect will the lifting have and where are the buyers suddenly going to come from?

4. If compensation for or exchange land has been given for land in the south, does ownership of that land in the south pass to the TRNC/Turkish government?

Responses appreciated.

[Col]

The embargo after 40 years I believe to not be true at all, Cuba still has an embargo from 1962!

[journey1]

I just have experienced all of these similar type 'rumours' for years and years now - no point in getting excited about rumours in my view.

[sophie]

Hector, if you really are that concerned about what is in actuality the rumour capital of the world, then don't bother. We all live here from day to day, enjoying our lives as best we can, some in the certain knowledge that we will never own our properties. If you are that worried about the legalities of property ownership in the TRNC, then this is not the place to come. If you do, then you will be a nervous wreck from day one. I don't know who you are or what you represent, but the TRNC and property law is like nothing anywhere else and frankly I can't be bothered to get worked up about it. If we don't get to hand it over to our children, then what the hell, they can all live without the money it will be worth in the end of the day.

[erol]

1. Exchange land title is now safe since the IPC has or will compensate previous GC owners.

This is an assumption but until it is tested in the courts it remains just that.

That this is especially true for those who have exchange land where the IPC has actually paid out.

It is hard to see how a pre 74 owner who has sought and accepted redress from the IPC could also then make a claim against the current user of the property. As for those that have not sought or sought but did not agree redress, see above.

Question - What is there to stop the IPC/TRNC/Turkish governments now asking the new owner to repay the same amount that has been paid out by the IPC?

Again this is unknowable in my opinion. Personally I think that if someone who purchased a property at a price that reflected the fact it had 'disputed' title , then ends up in a position where the title is no longer disputed and thus the value increases for this reason, that this increased value should not necessarily accrue to them but could go into a fund to settle future disputes. So if you property increases in value by say 15% because of it changing from disputed title to non disputed title, via a settlement at the IPC or via a general settlement, that 15% increase in value could be clawed back. One way this could be done would be one off a specific tax on future sales of such properties. This is just my personal opinion and there is no evidence I know off that Turkey or the TRNC is planning to try and recoup the costs of settlement made at the IPC from current owners of said properties.

2. That there is TRNC legislation waiting to be passed to allow TC's to be compensated by the IPC for land owned in the south that has not been subject to the points exchange system. Question - why would the Turkish Government (who fund the IPC I understand) do that?

The plan as I understand it is to try and force the RoC to recognise such deals by using the IPC. So a TC who had land in the south and had not taken any land in the North in exchange could go to the IPC and seek redress for it. That land in the South would then be available for the IPC to use to settle claims from GC by offering said land in 'exchange' for land lost in the North. Basically Turkey has an incentive to try and get as much 'exchange' legitimatised as it can, just as the RoC would like to see none of it legitimately exchanged. It is far from clear if the IPC can operate in this manner however. Ultimately it will be the ECHR that decides if such deals by the IPC done re TC property in the South are legally valid and have to be recognised by the RoC or not.

[cont]

[erol]

3. That people are not putting their property on the market at the moment as come July, after 40 years, the embargoes must be lifted by international law and thus property will rocket in value.
Question - Is it true and if so, what effect will the lifting have and where are the buyers suddenly going to come from?

I am no expert but this sounds like bullshit to me.

4. If compensation for or exchange land has been given for land in the south, does ownership of that land in the south pass to the TRNC/Turkish government?

Currently the IPC does not grant compensation for land lost in the South, only for that lost in the North so I am not sure I understand the question ? The IPC was formed because the ECHR ruled that Turkey could not deprive the pre 74 GC owners of their property in the North without providing some mechanism by which they could seek and get fair redress for that loss.

[Jonnie]

Couple of things to add the the above.

A couple of people have mentioned the 40 year thing on the recognition/embargo thing but I have seen nothing in print or online which would suggest this is more than a myth.

If the IPC is the legally accepted route for compensation for those that have lost in the South then it could be argued that as this is a Turkish commission there is a precedent set and accepted that Turkey is the proper place, theoretically as the *occupying power depriving those with the legal right to the land* that any future claim should be addressed to Turkey. Consequently if person "a" has had their property settled by Turkey through the IPC why should person "b" have to pay compensation to any third party.

The more claims settled through the IPC the better which is possibly why they are discouraged in the South.

I am no legal person but it seems to me if under international law it is acceptable that Turkey pays the compensation, why in the future should this change even if Turkey says it will not.

[turtle]

So does anyone have a comment on,......... "How do you find out if the IPC has paid out on your land?"

[Groucho]

Just one more thing to throw into the melting pot... the 'exchange' property in the north reflects that there should be a plot of similar point score in the south. Therefore that land ought to be at the disposal of the north if they've had to pay out via the offices of the IPC for the land in the north that it was supposedly exchange for... i.e. The land in the south still exists and is not owned by the south (their choice). So in theory, there is value that could further satisfy any future claim in the north.

Otherwise the south is "double-dipping"... by wanting compensation for land in the north and wanting to keep the TC's land in the south - aren't they?

[Jonnie]

Oh yes the South want to have their cake and eat it!

[Hector]

Thank you to all those who have responded. I posed genuine questions and received genuine answers and I do understand, sophie that you 'can't be bothered to get worked up about it.' Thank you for responding though.

To clarify one point I don't 'represent' anyone other than someone (me) who has already been burnt and trying to find out what the truth is to move on. I've learnt long ago that you can't trust certain trades here, hence seeking the experience, wisdom and knowledge of others on this forum.

I apologise if I have touched a raw nerve with some. Thinking about it now, I should not be surprised that in fact no one probably knows the answers, not even the politicians or legal trade.

[Dalartokat]

Hi Hector, you may wish to read this link, not sure if it will answer your specific questions but may help to understand..


http://www.tamk.gov.ct.tr/english/yasa.html

[Hector]

Dalartokat

Thanks for that, it will take some time to digest I strongly suspect.

No one has fully answered my query that 'exchange land is now safe because of the IPC'. Is that right?

[waddo]

Hector, Can I put it simply for you? The "exchange" land is just as "safe" as your Old Age Pension retirement age in the UK! Like all things that are controlled by any government in any country, it is all a moveable feast that moves to the advantage of the government. So for here in Cyprus, as I hit the enter key to post this comment, the "exchange" land is as safe as the TRNC Title or the Foreign Title land - in the same way as the age that you would have received your pension (65) had the government not suddenly found a way to make you work longer for less!

It is all a gamble and nobody knows the answer, you can only make your own best guess yourself based on your required standard of living (all things considered) and how much you are willing to pay for it. We think we have made the best possible choice in what we have done, others think we are mad, others wish we had done the same and even more others have come up with a better idea that suits them.

If you are worried about the "dodgy" North then look at the "solid" South where everything was rosie 3 years ago but then it changed or maybe Spain where life was wonderful till the Spanish government change the laws for people who had lived there many years in peace and security. All countries have an element of uncertainty - not being biased but what will happen if you own (as an Englishman) a house in Scotland and they vote YES???? Will it all change there as well.

Toss the coin, make your best choice and smile - just enjoy life day to day.

[Groucho]

Just to add Hector... you will be able to tell when an Estate Agent and Lawyer are lying to you... you will notice their lips move!

[elizabeth]

Hector, Can I put it simply for you? The "exchange" land is just as "safe" as your Old Age Pension retirement age in the UK! Like all things that are controlled by any government in any country, it is all a moveable feast that moves to the advantage of the government. So for here in Cyprus, as I hit the enter key to post this comment, the "exchange" land is as safe as the TRNC Title or the Foreign Title land - in the same way as the age that you would have received your pension (65) had the government not suddenly found a way to make you work longer for less!

It is all a gamble and nobody knows the answer, you can only make your own best guess yourself based on your required standard of living (all things considered) and how much you are willing to pay for it. We think we have made the best possible choice in what we have done, others think we are mad, others wish we had done the same and even more others have come up with a better idea that suits them.

If you are worried about the "dodgy" North then look at the "solid" South where everything was rosie 3 years ago but then it changed or maybe Spain where life was wonderful till the Spanish government change the laws for people who had lived there many years in peace and security. All countries have an element of uncertainty - not being biased but what will happen if you own (as an Englishman) a house in Scotland and they vote YES???? Will it all change there as well.

Toss the coin, make your best choice and smile - just enjoy life day to day.

Spot on Waddo, that sums it up very well indeed.

[Hector]

Interesting article in the Telegraph today

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -year.html

Does this sound familiar?
"Maura Hillen, the chairman of AUAN, a pressure group based in Almeria province that campaigns for the rights of British home owners caught up in a property scandal, said: "Many people no longer wish to stay in Spain because of the never-ending fight to legalise their properties."

[dippersgirl]

I have read all with interest the one thing I want to know and nobody has answered here ore elsewhere is this:

So does anyone have a comment on,......... "How do you find out if the IPC has paid out on your land?"

[Col]

just googled and found this.
http://www.trncipclawyer.com/doc/abipc.pdf

[Yenidunya2]

Re IPC. Why not visit the IPC office in Nicosia and ask! Simple really.

[Hector]

Col
Interesting information, thank you. Surprised me just how much has been paid out.

Is the subject of property a taboo one for this forum? I ask because it seems so from the responses. I appreciate that many people have been burnt, me included, but thought that at least it could still be discussed. If it is too sensitive I'll withdraw, or 'wind my neck in' may be a better description.

[tomsteel]

Hector, like you - burnt by the TRNC system/non system. Successive governments have known about the numerous scams/problems throughout the property industry and not one of them has bothered to introduce legislation to regulate any single aspect of it. Why would they, when the majority of those affected have no vote, no rights or any influence (other than their money filling the pockets of family members)? Hey ho, this is Cyprus my friend!

[erol]

I do have to chip in here. To date those who have lost out because of the 'disputed with pre 74 owner' title here is 1 (the orams). Those who have lost out because of other scams / problems that are not related to disputed (with pre 74 owners) titles is in the hundreds and probably thousands. This is not to say this will always be the case of course but to date this is the case. On that basis I would worry much more about the other scams / problems that have caused hundreds and possibly thousands to loose considerable sums and less so on disputed (with pre 74 owner) title which to date has caused loss for 1 person/family.

[Dalartokat]

Col
Interesting information, thank you. Surprised me just how much has been paid out.

Is the subject of property a taboo one for this forum? I ask because it seems so from the responses. I appreciate that many people have been burnt, me included, but thought that at least it could still be discussed. If it is too sensitive I'll withdraw, or 'wind my neck in' may be a better description.

Hector, I have checked over the internet to find an answer to your specific question and it has been difficult. However, I did ask someone who has a very good knowledge of how things work in NC and this is their reply:

info@immovablepropertycommission.org

I do not think they will give out that sort of information and my understanding is though people have asked, they have always refused to give such information. You would have to give the Kocan number and details.

[Hector]

Dalartokat
Thank you for doing that. Appreciated.

[Jonnie]

I do have to chip in here. To date those who have lost out because of the 'disputed with pre 74 owner' title here is 1 (the orams). Those who have lost out because of other scams / problems that are not related to disputed (with pre 74 owners) titles is in the hundreds and probably thousands. This is not to say this will always be the case of course but to date this is the case. On that basis I would worry much more about the other scams / problems that have caused hundreds and possibly thousands to loose considerable sums and less so on disputed (with pre 74 owner) title which to date has caused loss for 1 person/family.

Agreed Erol it is also nice to see it in perspective. The other issue is there is now a settlement agreed in law with Turkey being the payee and this sets a precedent to my mind.

With regard to nothing improving, sadly for some of the older cases there is yet to be some sort of resolution however the situation has improved for newer byers as the law where contracts need to be registered, which I understand was quite an old law, has been enforced. This generally should protect newer buyers in the vast majority of the case from finding out their houses are on mortgaged land.

I bought 8/9 years ago and the government stated on their website not to buy without PTP. I am well aware this is mechanically not normally possible but it does bring to mind the whole caveat emptor statement of buyer beware.

Could you imagine if tomorrow every new buyer took notice of this? How quick would that bring about change???? The buyers do have to shoulder some of the responsibilities here!

[tomsteel]

We are quite recent vendors (5+ years) and was originally told by our advocate not to purchase as the land was mortgaged. Contacted the developer, assured by email it would be removed, then later by advocate to be told it had been - contract signed by him as our legal rep. Arrived months later for completion of house, checked with Land Registry - mortgage still on land and developer (Sercem) refuses to remove it despite numerous requests and he even wanted us to pay his tax, despite it clearly states in the contract it is his responsibility to do so. After 5th advocate for a simple conveyance we are now into breach of contract action - even if we win, Sercem will claim no money and we'll lose the house. And I keep being told the TRNC justice system is based upon British law!!! I wonder which century they refer to?

[kaiserphil]

Sercem was one of the first to blackmail his purchasers into paying his taxes, on his "Selin Villas" development, despite the clause in the "contract".

Others, seeing how he got away with it, followed suit.

And that was before he bought his son something like a Maserati!

[Hector]

I don't think one can expect buyers to shoulder responsibility for enabling sellers i.e. developers to commit fraud against them when buying property. The 'wait until you have PTP' is a non starter with the length of time it takes to get it (if you are granted it). How many have relied on an advocate to look after their interests only to have still been defrauded (tomsteel above)? Just how is the TRNC government going to bring the legal system and the law into line with the EU?

[sophie]

Hector, until and unless the legal profession in the TRNC accepts that they "have a duty of care" to their clients, nothing will change. When I queried 9 years ago with our first "Solicitor", who professes to be a Barrister, why he hadn't registered our property within the allotted 28 days, his reply was "because you didn't ask me to". How can anyone whether they be Brits, Germans or whatever have faith in the legal system here when that is the reply they might receive. Now of course, we and people who bought property "back in the day" would insist on the 28 day registration.

[Owl Lady]

Some time ago, a guy published a list of questions you should DEMAND your solicitor to get answers to. As he said they are not obliged to do anything, unless they are requested!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think it may have been in an English news paper, it was before Kibkom was born