Fire extinguisher for gas tank

cjtill · Post by **cjtill** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 8:43 am

I am applying for a gas tank permit but before we submit the paperwork we have to buy a fire extinguisher however the 'powers to be' do not know which type is suitable! Does anyone know which type we should buy and where we could get it from?

Michael

Toftsv · Post by **Toftsv** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 8:51 am

Class B is for flammable liquids but you can get one that has class A,B and C all in one.

Don't know where to get them from.

Peter

brian24001 · Post by **brian24001** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 10:02 am

As is normally the case, 'those that know' here don't.
If you have a gas fire, the last thing you want is to put it out, you then would have hydrocarbon gas in the air, and potential for explosion.
In the case of a gas fire, you should let it burn, then you remove the gas itself (the fuel) from the equation, and can see where the leak is, and it is much safer.
You need to be able to cool the surrounding areas however, so a water hose is what you actually need.
Look up the fire triangle, you need all three, remove any one and the fire stops.

Tanks here do not have liquid gas in them (thank goodness given the lack of knowledge). In the case of liquid gas in a tank the most dangerous thing is a bleve (Google it, some great controlled examples (and not so controlled) on the net.

To extinguish the gas fire, you turn off the gas at the source, or if the tank itself is ruptured, you are safest to let it burn and cool the surrounding areas.

I just hope the fire brigade or 'those that know' don't ever have to deal with a gas fire here.

To demonstrate the lack of knowledge locally about fire control, our TC neighbour, a lovely lady, had an oil pan fire in her kitchen, her son walked in a threw a bucket of water on it and torched the entire kitchen, where all that was needed was a damp cloth and remove the heat.

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 11:48 am

We took the name of the supply company from a fire extinguisher at a petrol station, gave them a ring and then they came out with the appropriate extinguisher for the gas tank. Then the fire officer came out to check the tank situation and the extinguisher.
Interestingly we have our permit but our TC neighbours don't.
They were not asked by Intergas if they had a permit when they filled the tank up but English friends were told no permit no gas!

cjtill · Post by **cjtill** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 1:24 pm

Thanks for you replies. Panchocat do you have the name or number of the supplier and does your extinguisher state the type on it.
We don't have a gas fire but use the gas for Central heating so goodness knows what type of extinguisher we need for the tank which is a 1000 litre tank.

Becker · Post by **Becker** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 1:29 pm

brian24001,which type of gas do they put into tanks here please?

3dognight · Post by **3dognight** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 2:34 pm

Hi, you need a 6kg dry powder extinguisher, (don't ask why!), obtainable from Kaner KÖKSAL Co. Import Export Consulting Expertise Ltd, Dr. Fazil Kucuk Boulevard No. 20 ABC Taşkınköy-Nicosia. Tel 0392 444 3473.

Turn left at the Lefkosa roundabout and the shop is about a mile or so on the right hand side opposite the Mercedes garage. The signage is in red so it is difficult to miss. The receipt is part of the documentation needed by the Interior ministry before they will issue the licence.

Kaner is the ex-Fire Chief and ex-Chief Constable and speaks excellent English.

Extinguishers have a life of 12 months and need to be re-charged annually.

Licences are valid for up to 12 months and expire in December; so leave it until Jan if you can. You will need to show an in-date extinguisher certificate at application and at each renewal.

My licence last year cost TL 35.00

Hope this helps

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 10:14 pm

3dognight beat me to it.
That was the firm that came out to us for the extinguisher for the gas tank.
Then the fire officer came out to check it, where we stored it and the position of the gas tank itself.
Good luck with your permit we had to jump through a few hoops to get ours.

brian24001 · Post by **brian24001** » Sun 30 Nov 2014 10:55 pm

Becker wrote:brian24001,which type of gas do they put into tanks here please?

Not completely sure, but it will be ether Propane or Butane.

In the smaller portable bottles here, which are liquid filled and high pressure vessels, assuming they are checked!!, I have been told Propane or Butane, not sure there is a fixed system, either will work in a portable fire/BBQ etc.

It doesn't get cold enough here, or at least very rarely, for Butane to become a problem with vapour liquification in a tank, unless you took it to the Troodos mid-winter.

Either gas has almost identical calorific value.

3dognight wrote:you need a 6kg dry powder extinguisher

That really does show that nothing about the consequences is understood by those that 'make up' the rules. If you applied dry powder (useless outside on a windy day ) to a high velocity burning jet of gas, it would just disperse into the air.

SKYBLUESAM · Post by **SKYBLUESAM** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 7:39 am

We have two gas tanks that are filled as required and have never had extinguisher's or been asked to install them either.
Another money-making exercise for someone methinks!!!

cjtill · Post by **cjtill** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 9:11 am

The rules have now changed (yet again).
We have had our tank for over 12 years and each year Jetgas came and filled up with 700\800 litres whenever I called them. They have never asked whether we had a permit, or a fire extinguisher.
It seems that they have now been instructed by the powers-that-be, that when they have filled-up they must inform the District Office, who then contact the gas user and ask "where is your permit?
When you reply "what permit" they ask you to apply at their offices in Girne.

Visited the office last week and picked up a form, and was advised that the permit application must have attached a receipt for the correct fire extinguisher.
When asked what type, all I got was a shrug of the shoulder------hence this posting.

Was also advised that Jetgas (and I assume Intergas as well) will not further supply me with further gas without said permit.

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 9:46 am

Do the locals go through all these hoops?

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 1:01 pm

We know that our Cypriot neighbours do not have gas permits and we know that their tanks have been filled in the last couple of weeks!

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 3:20 pm

Day no more, clearly the permit is yet another money making scam. Same as micro chipping dogs, we all tripped along paying over our hard earned cash. At one local said to me last week "why do you ex-pats fall for it every time?"

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 3:42 pm

Ever thought that maybe your neighbours have now also been contacted and will not be able to get another refill till they go through the same thing?

harita · Post by **harita** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 5:03 pm

This is a catch 22 situation ..
I went earlier this year to get our permit ..
Filled in all the necessary forms only to be told by the woman in the office that before they would issue it .. The house has to be on the kocan ..
Been trying to get this done for 9 years, looks like it will be another 9 ..
Maybe the gas co. can help .. Every "Tom Dick & Harry" have had a go ..
Any ideas .. Not refused gas yet !!!!!

snd1966 · Post by **snd1966** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 5:48 pm

sophie wrote:Day no more, clearly the permit is yet another money making scam. Same as micro chipping dogs, we all tripped along paying over our hard earned cash. At one local said to me last week "why do you ex-pats fall for it every time?"

They can not or be made to get on a plane!

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Mon 01 Dec 2014 9:29 pm

Waddo they are all good friends of ours so will comment when the next gas delivery is ordered by one of them. However, one has had a delivery in the last fortnight but some English friends were denied delivery two months ago because they had no permit. Explain that one if you can.

Harita were were told that no Kocan then no permit in the beginning when we applied.
We have shared Kocan, just the land.
When we pushed insisting that the tank was there regardless of the Kocan, we were taken upstairs and the permit was issued.

Groucho · Post by **Groucho** » Tue 02 Dec 2014 1:26 pm

Maybe the extinguisher is for a fire in a location near to the tank - i.e. to allow you to extinguish a fire that threatens to engulf the tank....

Can't think of another useful scenario.... I assume they know that for a tank fire itself the device would be worse than useless and downright dangerous.

waddo · Post by **waddo** » Tue 02 Dec 2014 1:57 pm

OK, how about this then as it fits all situations here. Panchocat says: her Turkish neighbours have no permit but have had their tanks filled in the last couple of weeks. cjtil says: The rules have changed (again) AND Jetgas have been told by the powers that be to that after filling the tank they must inform the District Office, who then contact the gas user and ask "where is your permit"? AND Was also advised that Jetgas (and I assume Intergas as well) will not further supply me with further gas without said permit.

A few of points here to start with: 1. You get your tank filled first then you wait for the District Office to contact you over the permit?
2. Jet/Intergas are cutting their own throats by not selling gas if you have no permit. 3. There has been a rule change (again). 4. As I do not use a large gas tank I can only guess at how long it would last you but can I guess at a minimum of three months?

So, back to Panchocats' request to "Explain that one if you can". Every year the rules for residency change - Cypriots don't need it so don't bother. Every year other new rules/laws come into being - like the law that says you need a fishing license to fish from the coast or a boat if you are not Cypriot. Every year or month in some cases, a new law/rule changes and existing law/rule and Cypriots go on about their normal daily life as usual!

Why? Because - "Muslims believe that everything is maktub [lit.: written] and so whatever it is one wishes to do, will only occur if it is within God's plan.", "In the Qur'an, Muslims are told that they should never say they will do a particular thing in the future without adding insha'Allah to the statement.[2] This usage of insha'Allāh is from Islamic scripture, Surat Al Kahf (18):23-24: "And never say of anything, 'I shall do such and such thing tomorrow. Except (with the saying): 'If God wills!' And remember your Lord when you forget...'" Muslim scholar Ibn Abbas stated that it is in fact obligatory for a Muslim to say insha'Allah when referring to something he or she intends to do in the future." - So there you have the answer Panhocat, as a Muslim never expects anything to be the same and happen tomorrow unless it is the will of God, they will always wait to see what tomorrow will bring before they do anything, like getting a Gas Tank Permit!!! After all, the law may be changed (by Gods' wish) tomorrow anyway!!! So why rush around and waste today when tomorrow will be different anyway.

The only answer I can give you is that two weeks ago they had their gas tank filled and now they are waiting for the District Office to contact them about a permit - OR - waiting for the law/rule to change yet again!!! Wonderful and applies to everything you do here, so long as you understand it then it makes perfect sense! Just to make it plain as well - I am not picking on the Muslim religion in any way, shape or form - it is just "The way".

Carbotec · Post by **Carbotec** » Sat 06 Dec 2014 7:32 am

brian24001 wrote:As is normally the case, 'those that know' here don't.
If you have a gas fire, the last thing you want is to put it out, you then would have hydrocarbon gas in the air, and potential for explosion.
In the case of a gas fire, you should let it burn, then you remove the gas itself (the fuel) from the equation, and can see where the leak is, and it is much safer.
You need to be able to cool the surrounding areas however, so a water hose is what you actually need.
Look up the fire triangle, you need all three, remove any one and the fire stops.

Tanks here do not have liquid gas in them (thank goodness given the lack of knowledge). In the case of liquid gas in a tank t he most dangerous thing is a bleve (Google it, some great controlled examples (and not so controlled) on the net.

To extinguish the gas fire, you turn off the gas at the source, or if the tank itself is ruptured, you are safest to let it burn and cool the surrounding areas.

I just hope the fire brigade or 'those that know' don't ever have to deal with a gas fire here.

To demonstrate the lack of knowledge locally about fire control, our TC neighbour, a lovely lady, had an oil pan fire in her kitchen, her son walked in a threw a bucket of water on it and torched the entire kitchen, where all that was needed was a damp cloth and remove the heat.

Carbotec · Post by **Carbotec** » Sat 06 Dec 2014 7:35 am

Pray tell us what is in the tanks if not liquid?

Keithcaley · Post by **Keithcaley** » Sat 06 Dec 2014 8:03 am

Carbotec wrote:Pray tell us what is in the tanks if not liquid?

I have to say that I was wondering the same thing myself, just hoping that someone else would ask

According to this article, both Propane and Butane are LIQUID Petroleum Gas (LPG)...

Anyone?

3dognight · Post by **3dognight** » Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:16 am

Groucho is correct. When I enquired of the inspecting Fire Service Officer why I needed a dry powder extinguisher he responded that it was not to put out a gas fire resulting gas tank leakage, but instead to fight a fire that threatened the gas tank.

Becker · Post by **Becker** » Sat 06 Dec 2014 3:03 pm

When I asked brian 24001,which gas was put into tanks,it was to see if there is another gas I hadn't heard of.In all my years in building/plumbing & heating trade not heard of other gases other than butane & propane used in filling any tank or bottles! These most definitely LPG!(Liquified petroleum gas).Except mains gas of course.

PapaBravo · Post by **PapaBravo** » Sat 06 Dec 2014 4:01 pm

brian24001,

Tanks here do not have liquid gas in them

. Several of us are waiting for confirmation, or otherwise, of your statement.

mrsgee · Post by **mrsgee** » Mon 12 Jan 2015 11:54 am

Have been this morning to apply for a permit, after recently finding out we needed one, so will be expecting it to be backdated. The young man was very helpful, gave us the form, then explained that we needed to complete it, and include copies of Kocan, Site Plan with original stamp, the contract for the gas tank, and the receipt for the fire extinguisher. He laughingly said we didn't need to take the extinguisher in!

He then said, 5 - YES FIVE - copies of the application were needed............I can only think that they are going to set fire to them to keep warm, ha ha.

The fire extinguisher needed is 6 kg for a 1000 ltr tank. It is A,B and C class. They have information on the desk, and the company is called Pekur Ltd in Lefkosa.

There was no queue we were dealt with immediately. The place to go is the district office across the carpark and opposite the District Land Registry office.

So, now we will start the process, and see how easy it is........or isn't......

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Mon 12 Jan 2015 1:06 pm

It may not be backdated, ours wasn't. I know some who have been fined and some who haven't. Good luck!
Seems like the application has changed already as we didn't need five copies when we did ours last year.
Make sure you have a copy of the purchase and annual service for the extinguisher. They keep the original in their folder at the district office but safer to have a copy too as things can get misplaced or lost in office papers!

mrsgee · Post by **mrsgee** » Mon 12 Jan 2015 1:48 pm

Thanks Panchocat. Just got back from getting the fire extinguisher.....with the fatura. So, first step complete, photocopying this afternoon, then back down to the District Office tomorrow. All simple so far.

mrsgee · Post by **mrsgee** » Tue 13 Jan 2015 4:34 pm

Right, next step is complete. Popped down this morning, with everything.....and fingers crossed. Saw a very nice lady, who checked the lot, said 'very good', to which I replied.....whey hey! Said they will phone us when the permit is ready......Very easy and simple, relatively, apart for the strange number of copies of the application itself.....5????? Why???? who knows.....

Cypgab · Post by **Cypgab** » Tue 13 Jan 2015 6:25 pm

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/estates/maintenanc ... TN_024.pdf

Self explanatory and authoritive.

Owl Lady · Post by **Owl Lady** » Tue 13 Jan 2015 7:32 pm

Thanks cypgab, I have had my extinguisher since 2005 and it is supposed to be refilled EVERY YEAR(no one told me, it hasn't been) Had several deliveries of gas since then. Never been asked for ANY documentation. 2 deliveries since mid December and still no request! Turkish Cypriot friend still trying to renew my permit for this year!!!Watch this space!

PapaBravo · Post by **PapaBravo** » Wed 14 Jan 2015 6:19 pm

I have had my gas certificate for about six months. Renewed it yesterday without problems at a a cost of 42 TL. He took my email address; apparently, in future they will send a reminder if you forget to renew. He also said the certificate should be renewed in the last week of December, but when I told him that I am usually in the UK then, he said I should come in January. Incidentally, I have never been asked to produce my certificate when buying gas.

fatsam · Post by **fatsam** » Wed 14 Jan 2015 9:39 pm

FAIR IS FAIR

Guys,
Compressed gas in a "tank" or in a bottle is dangerous. When either catches fire, you don't "even" try to put out. You just leg it, safe your skin if you can... get out and call the fire brigade. That is the rule of health and safety. YOUR SAFETY IS PRAMOUNT

Domestic Fire extinguisher is valuable for minor "house accident/ fire", and not for a gas tank. Think and apply a bit of logic.
I guess we all know the danger of "gas liquid explosion "its a boooom, fast demolition and fatality....

Commercial premises, including government buildings and building of multiple occupation are required by law to have safety precaution and practice in place (smoke detectors, fire alarms, etc..). Single domestic households are not required, its within the discretion of the owner to fit smoke alarms, fire detectors etc.,...

IF THE DISTRICT OFFICE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT TYPE OF FIRE EXTINGUISHER NEEDED (FOR WHAT PURPOSE AND WHERE), HOW ON EARTH ANY ORDINARY JO PUBLIC HOME OWNER KNOW ???

As for the gas permit,
I would challenge the permit issuing office, and refuse to pay. The tank is not yours and its the gas company property.
why are you paying a permit to keep someone else property????... The gas company should incorporate the permit cost within their service. The district office has to refer to the company and collect permit cost directly (from the company and not the end user)...

Legally you are not liable for a tank that is the property of a third party. Its the gas company / gas supplier responsibility to agree an adequate system with regards to revenue earned from "gas". The government already has its tax / revenue from gas, and other taxes earned from the gas company, therefore the permit issue is a Fars.

The tank is not yours, and let the government take you ALL to court, or take the gas supplying company to court for illegal fitting of the tank without permission..Its a waste of time to worry about it...

Now, think
Do the people who have huge "oil" tank in their properties need permits?? hell NO
how about those who keep 6 or more gas bottles in their premises??? do they hold permits??? again NO
How about the ones who have gas heaters in every room??? well do they have permits?? NOOOO

stay safe, and don't get bullied
fatsam

p.s.
Can anyone explain to me the purpose of the alleged permit??

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Wed 14 Jan 2015 10:23 pm

Well Fatsam I think the purpose of the permit is to line government coffers!
Ludicrous when they tell you that unless you have Kocan you can't have a permit! Unless you argue!!!!
Well hullo! Kocan or not a gas tank is dangerous and does not discriminate, as the district office does, as to whether your Kocan is owned!
In the words of the district office you need a permit because a gas tank is a bomb................. Obviously not though if you don't gave the Kocan
So question:
When is a bomb not a bomb?
District office answers please.

fatsam · Post by **fatsam** » Wed 14 Jan 2015 10:37 pm

Panchocat my friend,

Well here is a "dark comedy" in action.... and I still say challenge the officer and you'll see a blank look...
Don't get nasty,... be civil,... and more important don't accept vague and illogical answer...
Say no to stupidity, smile and walk away, that will cause a public embarrassment

You need a permit for a large gas tank because its " a bomb".... well
what do you call a the blue gas cylinder!!!! "bombita", because she is less lethal and her damages are less

haaaaa haaaaaa haaaaa
fatsam

Panchocat · Post by **Panchocat** » Wed 14 Jan 2015 10:58 pm

Challenge politely we did fatsam and permit we gained after being taken first to the first floor and then up to the hallowed environs of the second floor and to the great permit sanctioner in person.
Bomb we have, permit we have, Kocan well not yet............
No point being bombastic.
No point being 'bominable.
But hey ho shoulder shrug, do we do the ten to two or the twenty to four?
I do know that no way will we be running past any exploding bomb, bomblet, bombino, or bombinette in order to reach a fire extinguisher so the paper work, the extinguisher and the bomb are all in situ, finale and curtain call! we hope!

cjtill · Post by **cjtill** » Thu 15 Jan 2015 9:57 am

When it gets cold its nice to have the central heating taking the chill off the room, and by a flick of a switch....hey presto, thanks to the gas in our tank\bomb.
When said gas runs out and we need another delivery from Jetgaz, without our permit that will say NO.
So to stay warm we will follow the illogical rules, get bullied and give them more of our hard earned.
Its the way it works, so just follow the herd.
Michael

Owl Lady · Post by **Owl Lady** » Thu 15 Jan 2015 10:35 am

Continuation of posting 32.TC friend has renewed my permit.NO request for any documentation other than last years permit.NO mention of fire extinguisher!!!(which is 10 years old and never been refilled!)
Let's face it if there is a fire I couldn't even lift it let alone fight a fire with it! Any fire and I call the brigade and run like Hell from my bomb!. Does this prove there is a rule for one and a different one for another??

mrsgee · Post by **mrsgee** » Thu 22 Jan 2015 8:58 am

Next step now complete......a fireman phoned up to arrange to pop to check the gas tank......he did the measuring to make sure it was the right distance from building, didnt ask to see fire extinguisher but we showed him anyway....it is in the house, and I think not a bad idea to have one to be honest......he then said, fine, two weeks for the permit to be ready.......and very pleasant he was too.

Owl Lady · Post by **Owl Lady** » Thu 22 Jan 2015 9:37 am

Come to the conclusion that as I have had my tank since 2005,they assume!! that I have all the relevant papers. As I was fined over 800tl ,I FEEL I HAVE PAID OUT ENOUGH.

brian24001 · Post by **brian24001** » Fri 20 Mar 2015 8:23 am

PapaBravo wrote:brian24001,

Tanks here do not have liquid gas in them
. Several of us are waiting for confirmation, or otherwise, of your statement.

Had our tank filled a couple of weeks ago and actually paid attention for a change.
No request to see the [stealth tax] permit, or fire extinguisher, which also wasn't asked for when the permit was renewed.

Contrary to what I was told when the system was installed, the delivery was indeed liquid, which makes sense.

Had a look at the properties of Propane, and what is in your tank is of course dependent on the temperature and pressure within the tank.

The bubble point of Propane appears to be around 855kPa or 124 psi. So, as long as you have greater pressure than this in your tank (and it is also temperature dependent) you will have liquid. Didn't realise the bubble point was so low, but it is a relatively heavy gas.

If you allow the tank to empty sufficiently, and I am not sure how much this would be, you will end up with all gas in the tank, until it is re-compressed back to liquid on a future delivery.

Going back to the fire extinguisher, I concur with fatsam, if you have a fire nearby, stay well away, it's safest burnt off.

sammydavis · Post by **sammydavis** » Sat 21 Mar 2015 9:41 am

We got one from KORKSAL, Dr. Kucuk Bulvan, No.20 A-B Taskinkoy, Lefkosa
Very helpful man, good English and will tell which correct extinguisher to buy - also what else to do re Fire Certificate. The price for ours, 2 yrs ago, was 87TL incl. VAT.

Turn left at first big roundabout on approach to Lefkosa from Girne, (towards all car sale outlets), Korksal is opposite side of road, not sure how far along.

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