Labour for SOFT, Consevative for HARD BREXIT

[turtle]

I have never said that leaving the Eu will bring instant wealth and success neither have I criticized the remain voters for being old and thick and not understanding the prospect of a much better life outside the bankrupt heavily borrowing high unemployment stagnant growth EU area but I am willing to give it a go to free us from the restrictive shackles of a failed entity like the EU

Hmmm
Noble attitude indeed. I must ask if you are an active contributor to the UK economy or are you a time served person now trying to recover "the good old days". Two distinct levels of importance in my view.
No disrespect implied or intended please.
The EU as a failed entity is far from true. Many have taken the line that the EU will not stay the course. I see an invigorated EU lining up to compete with and capitalise upon a new weakness the UK.
Roll over and die the EU will certainly not do and it is foolhardy notion to think the Union would collapse after the divorce.

Waz I am a fully paid up member of the UK contribution club got a few more years to go yet Haha....no offence taken... I am under no illusion that utopia is just around the corner however I do feel better progress can and will be made after brexit, I think your prediction of a more competitive and invigorated EU after Brexit is more fantasy than fact as you cling to your EU dream,.. I bear no ill will to any european country or resident and in fact wish them well as for rolling over and dying or collapsing I have no more of an idea this will happen that yourself what I do know and you need to take note is as years roll on the EU will find it harder to sell it's credibility to the 26 left in the light of the recent Italy vote and the fiasco in germany.

[kerry 6138]

What will the outcome be after a divorce from the EU?

This is a unique never attempted before scenario.

I am and have been very concerned over what will happen in 2019 onwards into the next decade..

I dont know, you dont know, no one knows, to many variables,

Apart from Greenland, St Barthethemy and if we include Common Market Algeria not exatly unique

If you are so concerned what are you able to do that will ease your conerns?

[waz-24-7]

What will the outcome be after a divorce from the EU?

This is a unique never attempted before scenario.

I am and have been very concerned over what will happen in 2019 onwards into the next decade..

I dont know, you dont know, no one knows, to many variables,

Apart from Greenland, St Barthethemy and if we include Common Market Algeria not exatly unique

If you are so concerned what are you able to do that will ease your conerns?

What can I do?
My political allegiance is under review. Certainly Mr Tony Blair has my support in his analysis and solution.

The economies that you refer to are insignificant and cannot be used as examples.

I do not Know indeed. That is what is so concerning. That is what is effecting our currency, inflation and we are still in the EU. 2019 will be here very very soon. The gamblers have won the day. The horses are in the blocks, who knows the outcome of the race. Shame that we are all putting such large stakes on a few indecisive runners.

[turtle]

Tony Blair???..... didn't have you down as a traitor waz...

[turtle]

Erol and Turtle,
Historic trends. Google searches and data downloads hardly address the issue.
What will the outcome be after a divorce from the EU?
This is a unique never attempted before scenario. Uncertainty prevails.
Both major UK political parties have diverging formulas for a HARD or SOFT divorce.
Both are simply intent on securing power.
I am and have been very concerned over what will happen in 2019 onwards into the next decade.
Is your research significant? I think not given the unprecedented change in economic yardsticks, prospects and forecasts.

It doesn't really matter what answers you get to your questions waz...you will take no notice if the answers are against your EU views

[waz-24-7]

Tony Blair???..... didn't have you down as a traitor waz...

No indeed
Strange how political viewpoints can change.
Certainly the diverging views of left and right wing UK politics upon Brexit has changed the landscape.
I see many politicians in almost disarray over Brexit.

[turtle]

Blair is hardly left wing ?......bit of desperation me thinks.

[PoshinDevon]

Erol and Turtle,
Historic trends. Google searches and data downloads hardly address the issue.
What will the outcome be after a divorce from the EU?
This is a unique never attempted before scenario. Uncertainty prevails.
Both major UK political parties have diverging formulas for a HARD or SOFT divorce.
Both are simply intent on securing power.
I am and have been very concerned over what will happen in 2019 onwards into the next decade.
Is your research significant? I think not given the unprecedented change in economic yardsticks, prospects and forecasts.

It doesn't really matter what answers you get to your questions waz...you will take no notice if the answers are against your EU views

Correct.

No one knows how things will pan out once the U.K. has finally exited the EU. It’s all guesswork which is driven by whether you wanted to remain or leave. For every argument put forward to remain there is a counter argument easily found to leave.

Reasoned debate with waz is almost impossible as whatever your point of view, it will likely be completely ignored by waz and not commented on or will be answered strangely with half a dozen questions which have no relevance. That is why I rarely post on this topic.

When the UK leaves the EU it will not be utopia or a bed of roses of that there is no doubt, however to be more in control of our own destiny is something I look forward to.

[rigsby]

Posh, I wish there was a like option on Kibkom because your post say,s it all.

[Keithcaley]

Posh, I wish there was a like option on Kibkom because your post say,s it all.

There is!

It's the little 'thumbs up' icon on the bar above each post...

[rigsby]

Thanks Keith.

[Keithcaley]

Thanks Keith.

I see that you found it!

[turtle]

Looking at this you can see that the UK's exports as a % of total world exports which starts in 1960 at around 9.5% falls year on year, unlike the other semi random countries I choose. It stops falling and 'stabilises' at the very time the UK joined the EEC. Now you might think this is a 'remain' argument but it is not. If I look at that graph and ask myself honestly "what do I think the graph would look like if we had not joined the EEC in 1973", the answer I come up with is "probably much the same".
User avatar
erol
True Kibkomer
True Kibkomer

Posts: 1327
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 8:14 pm

I would put the stabilisation mainly down to the end of oil embargo and the steel crisis ending which kick started world trade again, I certainly don't give any credit to the EEC for this happening ?

[waz-24-7]

Erol and Turtle,
Historic trends. Google searches and data downloads hardly address the issue.
What will the outcome be after a divorce from the EU?
This is a unique never attempted before scenario. Uncertainty prevails.
Both major UK political parties have diverging formulas for a HARD or SOFT divorce.
Both are simply intent on securing power.
I am and have been very concerned over what will happen in 2019 onwards into the next decade.
Is your research significant? I think not given the unprecedented change in economic yardsticks, prospects and forecasts.

It doesn't really matter what answers you get to your questions waz...you will take no notice if the answers are against your EU views

Correct.

No one knows how things will pan out once the U.K. has finally exited the EU. It’s all guesswork which is driven by whether you wanted to remain or leave. For every argument put forward to remain there is a counter argument easily found to leave.

Reasoned debate with waz is almost impossible as whatever your point of view, it will likely be completely ignored by waz and not commented on or will be answered strangely with half a dozen questions which have no relevance. That is why I rarely post on this topic.

When the UK leaves the EU it will not be utopia or a bed of roses of that there is no doubt, however to be more in control of our own destiny is something I look forward to.

My response to posts are clear and concise and of course open to debate.
My views are well known and I often disagree with others and offer a debatable response.
If you don't like the debate then please do as you suggest. Stop posting.

[waz-24-7]

Looking at this you can see that the UK's exports as a % of total world exports which starts in 1960 at around 9.5% falls year on year, unlike the other semi random countries I choose. It stops falling and 'stabilises' at the very time the UK joined the EEC. Now you might think this is a 'remain' argument but it is not. If I look at that graph and ask myself honestly "what do I think the graph would look like if we had not joined the EEC in 1973", the answer I come up with is "probably much the same".
User avatar
erol
True Kibkomer
True Kibkomer

Posts: 1327
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 8:14 pm

I would put the stabilisation mainly down to the end of oil embargo and the steel crisis ending which kick started world trade again, I certainly don't give any credit to the EEC for this happening ?

I believe the data being discussed here is historically irrelevant. Its 30 years ago!! World trade is increasingly volatile and trends and predictions become les and less dependable. Current threats from USA of protectionism will cause some real panic. Trading nations are lining up to negotiate a level of exemption. Trade agreements often take many years to finalise. I am certain the UK DTI are using all resources (too few) to commence the massive task ahead. Unfortunately I have seen little action to date. Possibly the uncertainty bug is having an effect.

[erol]

When the UK leaves the EU it will not be utopia or a bed of roses of that there is no doubt, however to be more in control of our own destiny is something I look forward to.

My view.

The UK's ability to either 'thrive' or 'not thrive' is only minimally affected by whether we are in or out of the EEC / EU compared with how much it is affect by how we behave and act, either in or out. I look forward to us being less able to blame others for situations that we find ourselves in that are overwhelmingly, and in my considered view always have been, within in our own power to influence.

[PoshinDevon]

When the UK leaves the EU it will not be utopia or a bed of roses of that there is no doubt, however to be more in control of our own destiny is something I look forward to.

My view.

The UK's ability to either 'thrive' or 'not thrive' is only minimally affected by whether we are in or out of the EEC / EU compared with how much it is affect by how we behave and act, either in or out. I look forward to us being less able to blame others for situations that we find ourselves in that are overwhelmingly, and in my considered view always have been, within in our own power to influence.

Erol.

I agree with most of your post. I am not convinced that overwhelmingly there were situations that we as the U.K. could have influenced so as not to have such an impact. Despite being a big player in the “club”, the majority will always rule. I have always maintained that the U.K. never really embraced the European dream and has always held it at arms length becoming increasingly more frustrated at some of the rules, regulations and influences on our way of life. Maybe this has been the crux of the problem - we never fully wanted to join in and are still proud of our independence and sovereignty. Old fashioned as this may seem, it’s what makes us British.

What happens post EU exit will be more under our control, we cannot blame others and we make our own destiny. Some may find that “greyness” and uncertainty concerning. I see it as an opportunity to be seized. None of us know how things will work out, it certainly will not be straightforward. In a strange way I take comfort in reading some of the more over the top the doom and gloom predictions which in my opinion are in the main pure guesswork by those who still cannot accept the decision made by those that voted over 18mths ago. For every gloomy prediction there is always a more positive one to be found. Some posts seem so desperate.

It will be at least 10 years before we can fully understand and appreciate whether leaving really was the right decision. I hope we make the most of the opportunities presented.

[erol]

I hope we make the most of the opportunities presented.

If we do it will be down to us. If we do not it will be down to us, just as it was when we were in the EU as far as I am concerned.

[turtle]

I hope we make the most of the opportunities presented.

If we do it will be down to us. If we do not it will be down to us, just as it was when we were in the EU as far as I am concerned.

I have to disagree Erol We were not in control of our own destiny when in the EU we had to abide by a mountain of bureaucracy that in my opinion strangled free trade as someone said a few years ago if you stacked the rules of the EU it would be higher than Nelsons column and the cost of all this has to be paid buy bussiness and us as consumers.

[erol]

I have to disagree Erol

That is fine.

We were not in control of our own destiny when in the EU we had to abide by a mountain of bureaucracy that in my opinion strangled free trade as someone said a few years ago if you stacked the rules of the EU it would be higher than Nelsons column and the cost of all this has to be paid buy bussiness and us as consumers.

For me there will always be 'bureaucracy' and a need for it and to pay for it. There will always be arguments that there is either too much of it or too little of it. For me this was true before the UK joined the EEC, will be true after we leave and would have been the case if we had never joined the EEC in the first place. You believe that outside the EU the UK will be able to find a better balance of how much 'bureaucracy' we choose to have and be able to pay less for supporting such. I personally am more sceptical about this idea. Both the idea that we will undoubtedly be able to achieve a better balance (either more or less) or that we will undoubtedly be able to provide it cheaper. I find it well within the realms of possibility and indeed more likely than not, that post brexit the over all level of 'bureaucracy' the UK has will not be that different from whilst it was in the EU and the cost of it will not be that different either.

[6M's]

My view.

The UK's ability to either 'thrive' or 'not thrive' is only minimally affected by whether we are in or out of the EEC / EU .[/quote]

WHAAAT?

That's fine for YOU to say from the 'TRNC' - the reality is that HMG are handling a poisoned chalice voted for by an AWFUL lot of wrinklies who will be relying on the endeavours of young people who's futures' they've shafted for their pensions..

Best thing that can happen is that the young 'uns wait 10 years and reverse the stupidity

[turtle]

I think there appears to be a bit of reverse psychology going on here ....both you Erol and Waz to a degree seem to accept the failings of the highlighted problems within the EU but then go on to try and convince people that nothing will change when we are out and that all the problems will be still with us after,.. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that bureaucracy and administration will be as difficult when we will be in a position to change it if we so wish.

[PoshinDevon]

My view.

The UK's ability to either 'thrive' or 'not thrive' is only minimally affected by whether we are in or out of the EEC / EU .

WHAAAT?

That's fine for YOU to say from the 'TRNC' - the reality is that HMG are handling a poisoned chalice voted for by an AWFUL lot of wrinklies who will be relying on the endeavours of young people who's futures' they've shafted for their pensions..

Best thing that can happen is that the young 'uns wait 10 years and reverse the stupidity [/quote]

I am not in the TRNC.

The vote was to leave the EU. This was decided by those eligible, registered and able to vote. If a number of young people eligible, able and registered to vote did not bother to turn out on the day it says more about them than it does those who did bother.

The U.K. will leave the EU and it will be then up to the U.K. to decide which direction to take and be more in control. Will it be better or worse I really have no idea but On balance I am still in favour of us leaving. As I have stated before, ever since the U.K. joined the EU in my opinion we have never fully embraced the European dream and have been sucked deeper and deeper into something that we as a country and a people were not entirely comfortable with. We were given the opportunity to chose to stay or leave - we chose to leave so let’s get on and make the best we can of it.

Reversing the decision will not happen for a long long time if ever.

[erol]

I think there appears to be a bit of reverse psychology going on here ....both you Erol and Waz to a degree seem to accept the failings of the highlighted problems within the EU but then go on to try and convince people that nothing will change when we are out and that all the problems will be still with us after,..

I speak for no one but myself and am simply trying to put forward my views as clearly as possible. If I convince anyone of anything or do not is pretty immaterial to me to be honest, my views remain my views regardless. For me in reality the main 'point' in expressing my views in text in places like this is not so much to 'convince others' but more a case of understanding and clarifying what my own views are and why I hold them for myself.

I am increasingly of the view that in or out will not make much differences to the problems generally being highlighted. All of the problems highlighted existed before our entry in to the EEC as far as I can see. It seems to me therefore reasonable to imagine a future when they still exist once we leave the EU.

I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that bureaucracy and administration will be as difficult when we will be in a position to change it if we so wish.

Because I think the challenge is not so much about 'being able to do whatever' but more one of 'knowing (and agreeing) what to do'. Outside of the EU we will be able to make changes more easily to many things but will we be any more able to know and agree what changes are desirable to achieve a given aim ? I personally do not think so.

[6M's]

I was responding to Erolz - as to being in 'TRNC'..

and I PROMISE you ...there'll be a 'can we re-join - we REALLY screwed up - vote'

Don't trust Corbyn - as he's just a Labour vote seeking euro-septic [ sp. mistake deliberate ] ) and May should be replaced with Ruth Davidson

[6M's]

All of the problems highlighted existed before our entry in to the EEC as far as I can see. It seems to me therefore reasonable to imagine a future when they still exist once we leave the EU.

Are aware of the fact the 'UK PLC' was seeking to succeed in the markets of the EEC and enjoy the benefits of ease of trade in the 70's - as our trade with other markets - such as the US and other former colonies was going to dwindle ? Which it did..

How CAN 'we' succeed as a minor player in a macro market - esp. just as the US, under 'Tramp', are talking up protectionism ?


LUNACY

[turtle]

My view.

The UK's ability to either 'thrive' or 'not thrive' is only minimally affected by whether we are in or out of the EEC / EU .

WHAAAT?

That's fine for YOU to say from the 'TRNC' - the reality is that HMG are handling a poisoned chalice voted for by an AWFUL lot of wrinklies who will be relying on the endeavours of young people who's futures' they've shafted for their pensions..

Best thing that can happen is that the young 'uns wait 10 years and reverse the stupidity [/quote]

So how do you work that out then when 44% of 25-49 year olds voted out and 56% of 50-64 year olds also voted out,..i am in the latter group and I'm neither old nor wrinkly or drawing a pension ?

Welcome Mark

[erol]

Will people be any more able to format their quotes in posts on this forum so it is clear who said what previously and what is being replied to, when we leave the EU ? Somehow I doubt it

[erol]

My view.

The UK's ability to either 'thrive' or 'not thrive' is only minimally affected by whether we are in or out of the EEC / EU .

WHAAAT?

That's fine for YOU to say from the 'TRNC' - the reality is that HMG are handling a poisoned chalice voted for by an AWFUL lot of wrinklies who will be relying on the endeavours of young people who's futures' they've shafted for their pensions..

Did the UK before it joined the EEC have periods when it was 'thriving' ? Did it have periods when it was not 'thriving' ? Did it have periods once in the EEC / EU when it was 'thriving' ? Not 'thriving' ? I think the answer is yes to all these so I think the chances are it will be the same in the future outside the EU too. The main difference with being in or out, as I am increasingly seeing it, is how easily we will be able to blame others for those periods when we are not 'thriving' rather than blaming ourselves.

[turtle]

I think that is a given Erol... If we come out and fall flat on our ass then we can blame no one other than ourselves but lets give it a go shall we you never know we might be good at it

[PoshinDevon]

I was responding to Erolz - as to being in 'TRNC'..

and I PROMISE you ...there'll be a 'can we re-join - we REALLY screwed up - vote'

Don't trust Corbyn - as he's just a Labour vote seeking euro-septic [ sp. mistake deliberate ] ) and May should be replaced with Ruth Davidson

My opinion is that there will not be a “can we rejoin vote” in the next 20 years if ever. I am obviously not in the all is doomed camp. I also did not vote to leave because of immigration which many in the remain camp keep pushing. I am aware that some immigration is needed, it needs to be better controlled but is needed for sure. I voted to leave primarily so we could have more say in our laws, regulations and controls rather than having to accept something imposed on us by faceless unknown europhiles which may not be to our benefit in the long term.

I am also of the opinion that there are a fair few who could have voted but either did not register or never turned out who are now moaning about an outcome which they could have influenced. Tough, you had your chance.

We agree on Corbyn. My reasons may be different to yours but we do agree.

Ruth Davidson is a rising star in the Conservative party and is doing well in Scotland and I hope that she does continue to climb the political ladder.

[PoshinDevon]

Will people be any more able to format their quotes in posts on this forum so it is clear who said what previously and what is being replied to, when we leave the EU ? Somehow I doubt it

I am trying Erol, but for some reason it occasionally does not work. I do find it makes me read posts more carefully tho.

[PoshinDevon]

I think that is a given Erol... If we come out and fall flat on our ass then we can blame no one other than ourselves but lets give it a go shall we you never know we might be good at it

Agree.

We will never know unless we give it a go. Fortunately we were given the opportunity to decide and now we have to do the best to make it work.

I am looking forward to see how things develop over the next decade.

[erol]

I think that is a given Erol... If we come out and fall flat on our ass then we can blame no one other than ourselves but lets give it a go shall we you never know we might be good at it

We are 'giving it a go' as far as I can see. Myself I strongly suspect we will be no better or worse at 'it' than we were before we were in or indeed whilst we were in for that matter.

[turtle]

Will people be any more able to format their quotes in posts on this forum so it is clear who said what previously and what is being replied to, when we leave the EU ? Somehow I doubt it

I am trying Erol, but for some reason it occasionally does not work. I do find it makes me read posts more carefully tho.

There is something amiss on here as I replied to erol twice yesterday and both replies disappeared ?

[turtle]

I think that is a given Erol... If we come out and fall flat on our ass then we can blame no one other than ourselves but lets give it a go shall we you never know we might be good at it

We are 'giving it a go' as far as I can see. Myself I strongly suspect we will be no better or worse at 'it' than we were before we were in or indeed whilst we were in for that matter.

That was a long time ago Erol a lot has change in the last 45yrs.

[erol]

How CAN 'we' succeed as a minor player in a macro market

As I see it you succeed, in any market at any time, first and foremost by producing 'things' (products or services or whatever) that others want to buy at a price they are willing to pay and do so more efficiently than anyone else doing the same. Compared to that all other issues like, free trade deals, or burdens of bureaucracy or whatever are 'side issues' and 'secondary' compared to this.

[erol]

That was a long time ago Erol a lot has change in the last 45yrs.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ;}

[turtle]

That was a long time ago Erol a lot has change in the last 45yrs.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ;}

absolutely



on récolte ce que l'on sème

[6M's]

How CAN 'we' succeed as a minor player in a macro market

As I see it you succeed, in any market at any time, first and foremost by producing 'things' (products or services or whatever) that others want to buy at a price they are willing to pay and do so more efficiently than anyone else doing the same..

Right, so leaving the EU means that IF we leave the customs union / don't get an agreement on tariff free trade - our prices go up ..'real smart'

Leaving the EU = lose trade (

It's already proven to have LOST us - as THIS year - as we were cruising along - we were on target to be in surplus - not 20 Billion shortfalls ..£350 million / week 'saving' - hands up who voted leave on THAT ?

[turtle]

6ms...I think you need to do a bit of research on erols views on leaving the eu... please keep up

[PoshinDevon]

How CAN 'we' succeed as a minor player in a macro market

As I see it you succeed, in any market at any time, first and foremost by producing 'things' (products or services or whatever) that others want to buy at a price they are willing to pay and do so more efficiently than anyone else doing the same..

Right, so leaving the EU means that IF we leave the customs union / don't get an agreement on tariff free trade - our prices go up ..'real smart'

Leaving the EU = lose trade (

It's already proven to have LOST us - as THIS year - as we were cruising along - we were on target to be in surplus - not 20 Billion shortfalls ..£350 million / week 'saving' - hands up who voted leave on THAT ?

I cannot be bothered to search but I would wager that for as many negative, doom and gloom statistics, comments etc about what is happening as a result of the vote to leave the EU, there will be a counter number of positive statistics saying how well we are doing since the vote. Will we lose trade, will there be no trade agreement with the EU - I think not. The EU need us as much as we need them and it’s in everyone’s interest to make it work.

[Mowgli597]

The EU need us as much as we need them and it’s in everyone’s interest to make it work.

Could you expand on that one please Posh?

[PoshinDevon]

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

There are statistics for everything and it’s easy to skew them to add weight or bias to an argument.

I found this article which I thought wasn’t bad providing you are willing to read with an open mind and not cherry pick depending on your point of view.

[Mowgli597]

Thank you Posh. Very interesting and well worth looking at.

[waz-24-7]

It is very easy to seek and reference historical trade data with the EU. This is NOT a reason to leave the Union. I see it as a fall back to substantiate a poor decision.

The fact is that the threats to trade are clear the looming and potential HARD Brexit is very concerning.
I am amazed that some still preach the "we don't know" in the hope it will all come good. These are the real gamblers who headed to the bookies placed their massive bets without even knowing the odds. These people really didn't take the advice or did they understanding the gamble.. The "wrinkles " certainly sold us down the river.

Did only the minority consider the security and peace that has prevailed in Europe since 1945. Can you, like me, detect the increase in tensions across Europe ...Not good.
I still see no real encouraging prospects for a better and more prosperous UK. I can of course wait and see because no one knows and hey who cares about anyone else!!

[waz-24-7]

The EU need us as much as we need them and it’s in everyone’s interest to make it work.

Could you expand on that one please Posh?

Yes indeed like it works now. Of course however after a divorce will it work the same? HAHA.
We'll still be friends of course.. Anyone seen that in the average divorce?
Am I getting the positive friendly vibe from the EU... absolutely not.

Come on. Smell the coffee please.

[PoshinDevon]

The EU need us as much as we need them and it’s in everyone’s interest to make it work.

Could you expand on that one please Posh?

Yes indeed like it works now. Of course however after a divorce will it work the same? HAHA.
We'll still be friends of course.. Anyone seen that in the average divorce?
Am I getting the positive friendly vibe from the EU... absolutely not.

Come on. Smell the coffee please.

Smelt the coffee and yes it certainly smells like the U.K. is leaving the EU.

No amount of bleating, blame or vibes will make any difference to this fact. So let’s embrace the challenge and look forward to the future. Things will always seem worse if you continue to fill it with doom and gloom.

[waz-24-7]

Posh
I beg to differ.
The Uk is leaving the EU. The current debate is under what terms. HARD or SOFT Brexit.
Now this is not a wait and see debate. This is when posters can express opinions and thoughts that can in turn be debated.
For example:
I and many others hold an EU passport. I wish to hold onto my European status with its privileges. Is it fair and proper or indeed legal that my EU passport be taken from me? Is it possible for those of us who wish to; to Hold onto our EU passports under say duel nationality? This is what most TRNC citizens do. I estimate almost 75% hold ROC passports as well as TRNC documents.
Of course those that no longer want to be part of the Union like yourself can also choose to forfeit theirs.

[turtle]

Give it a rest waz....i think it's clear enough now that you and people on this tread with your views are not interested in the EU dream you are only interested in protecting your own personal situation and its clear to me that you have some business to lose when we leave so you are trying to protect your own pocket and stuff the bigger picture....your bleating is getting very tedious.